Name | dcss:brainstorm:magic: transmutations |
---|---|
Summary | Several thoughts and ideas regarding Transmutations. |
Further information | Blade Hands includes overall concerns of the current balance |
How about a complete paradigm shift ? Transmutations could be unique in that they would all cause permanent effects ! Forms are permanent (but with downsides; right tool for the job). There's a separate Humanoid Form spell which transforms you back. Many forms may be unable to operate doors. Basically, as far as Transformations are concerned, you spend MP on changes. Other permanent spells could include:
All the crap which doesn't fit the new paradigm can be dumped into Enchantments for all I care. I want schools to give me real choices and entertain me.
— b0rsuk 2010-08-07 18:39
If this happens, then I insist that Spider Form be replaced with Serpent Form. The speed and poison and all the stats can say the same, only difference is that serpent form can wear naga bardings. Likewise there should be a new level 5 spell “Pegataur Form” (Pegataur!) that can wear centaur bardings. I just love the idea that if you're playing a deep elf and find a totally badass randart barding, you have the option of skilling transmutations specifically to use it. — 256 2010-08-10 04:46
Warning - melding of armour was introduced to eliminate the need to constantly switch equipment. Players had to put some pieces of armour back after transformation. Since no race except naga can wear n.bardings transformed and untransformed, this will reintroduce the annoyance.
I have an old related idea, though: animal skins should have chance to be magical or randart once again. Only this time, the effect would continue to work while transformed. In other words, animal skins would become a specialised armour for transformers. This is very fitting from thematic point of view, too - many shapeshifters, including berserkers, were supposed to gain the powers of a fierce animal whose fur they wore. — b0rsuk 2010-08-15 07:49
lordsloth 2010-04-09 18:08: With the recent change to guaranteed damage reduction in 0.7 (body armour ONLY, no armour skill factor), I was thinking we should consider some special cases for two forms, possible future forms.
I like everything about this. If we find this makes dragon/statue form too strong, we should nerf them in other ways. Using GDR here in a good way will help in so many aspects. Many thanks! — dpeg 2010-04-11 03:24
This entire article could be in the spells section but I decided to put it here instead.
In the early game, transmuters are tremendously fun: you have two forms to choose from (Ice and Spider) and you swap between them pretty constantly, depending on opposition. By the end of lair, you sometimes use blade hands - although the increased hunger is a major concern, and this depends somewhat on equipment. I'm not as fond of blade hands as other people, unless I happen to have really good boots or a helmet or something.
Then you get dragon form and statue form, except that you don't, because they suck. And they're very hard to cast, and the spell-schools they contain are deeply anti-synergistic with transmutations at high levels.
Another problem is that Transmutation is compatible only with unarmed combat, really. This is fine for the Transmuter *class*, but weapon-wielding characters should have some options other than statue form, which has no major advantage for weapon-wielders. The truly desperate may use it as a source of rElec, but the perpetual-slow is essentially a death sentence.
As was pointed out by borsuk below, this criticism of Statue Form is too harsh. (In particularly, the comparison with Blade Hands is irrelevant, as the blades are overpowered.) — dpeg 2010-03-17 16:45Fine, it's also not as good as Ice Form, just for general purposes. But my main point isn't that Statue Form is too weak overall (I think it's *too hard to cast*, but that's secondary), but mainly that Statue Form doesn't do any good for weapon users, but does slow you. If Statue Form were just like it is, but really compatible with weapons (that is, gave you a damage bonus to compensate for the Slow), then I'd be much happier with it. — drpraetor 2010-03-31 05:41Couldn't you replace the unarmed damage bonus with a big strength boost? This would help most weapon users, and I have no problem with quickblade users staying away from Statue Form. — joachimschipper 2011-09-15 14:38For a strength boost to do anything noticeable at all it would have to be enormous (on the order of 30 or 40, and the maximum is 72). Also, Statue Form has already been changed to multiply weapon damage and unarmed by the same amount (1.5). — minmay 2011-09-15 23:46
So, some guidelines:
I do agree that forms should not necessarily work with unarmed. I am not convinced about having many spells — with the list below, the school would be overly full, in my opinion. I am also not sure about more spells which replace only one body part. These are more prone to powergaming and abuse, I believe. However, I like some of the form proposals. There are good ideas in there. — dpeg 2010-03-17 16:45This is definitely too many. I intended for this long list to be whittled down substantially. So, take X-form below, and pick your favorite three? Personally, my favorites from my own list are: Shark Maw (b/c it gives Tm something to *do* at 1st level, and is really gross), Black Fever and Hellvine. — drpraetor 2010-03-31 05:41
I don't like Shark maw because: the dungeon air isn't made of water. Rename it to 'Fang' and describe it as a generic mutation. 'Slot' mutations, in my opinion, should be generic rather than tuned towards a specific form. Charge body is a nice idea (air magic needs something to replace static discharge). Wear skeleton is too silly. 'Meld skeleton' would be more fitting “The bones of the dragon meld into your body!”, giving a boost to AC depending on how many bones you meld but a reduction in dexterity and increase in strength. Hellvine I dislike; the player will be sitting their ass out whilst they get mobbed. For a level 6 spell this is not cheap enough to use in Lair. Crystallize is bad. Tentacles is nice, but not for a cloak slot. It should be a melee attack that constricts an opponent the same way the anaconda constricts you. Kyrie is a no. It does not make sense to be given divine status by 'transforming'. You're shape-shifting. No god will give a shit whether you look like an angel. They won't be giving you any divine favour. Chaos channel is way too expensive for something as weak as a 1. And with such a heavy drawback? Summon greater demon would be a much better investment and by the time you get 'Chaos channel' castable, you'll have summon greater castable. Bad idea. — studiomk 2010-07-30 21:11
So, on to the forms:
I love this page. Comments though: need to get Dragon Form and Statue Form into usable state first before starting to add more spells. These ideas could also be used as non-spell effects: items, gods, etc..
Transmutations/Earth has a lot of spells, so synergy is there for that spell. I don't mind if the unorthodox Fire school for Dragon Form means it's hard to reach; it's ok that if a transmuter finds a staff of fire/manual of fire/brilliance potions, Dragon Form becomes viable only then. — evktalo 2010-03-01 16:05
What do you mean: get statue form into usable state ? I have a few wins with statue form. Have those people actually tried ? Or is it knee-jerk reaction to “slow” ? My wins have been with Makhleb, and Ogre Mages, who were better spellcasters than current Ogres are, though. I'll try some non-makhleb statues. b0rsuk
That's excellent news. — evktalo 2010-03-01 18:12
Shatter is a great spell, and deconstruction is nice if you get the power very high, but for other earth/tmut spells you don't particularly benefit from raising the spell power. This makes tmut/earth somewhat like ench/air - yes, there are a bunch of spells, but you don't need or want earth/air to cast them, you just want more tmut/ench. If you get your earth into the 20s you can cast Shatter and you can break metal walls with deconstruct, but this just isn't enough to justify the investment. You can win in Statue Form, no question. You kill an orb of fire and just live with the mutations. I have a bit of a focus on all-runes wins. I've tried statue form extensively, and while it is better than normal form, it really isn't good enough to take on 0.5+ Hell Lords, even in conjunction with berserk. — drpraetor 2010-03-02 04:44
So, statue form is not in usable state because DrPraetor said it's not enough against demon lords. Here are some other spells which I think fit the definition: Magic Dart, Throw Flame, Throw Frost, Summon Imp, Levitation, Fire Brand, Polymorph Other, Corona, Invisibility, Poisonous Cloud, Mass Confusion, Cause Fear… b0rsuk
I'm not the one who said it wasn't in usable state. I don't think it's competitive with blade hands; with berserk+blade hands you can do pretty well against a demon lord; or with berserk+ice form, for that matter (esp against Asmodeus if you have enough rF from rings to get to rF+). Dragon Form is not in usable state, though. — drpraetor 2010-03-02 07:50
Let's be clear what statue form actually does. You get roughly the same total damage output as blade hands (factoring in the slow), your AC doesn't change very much, your hit points rise tremendously, and you trade a couple of slots for rElec, rPoison, and some other resistances. This is a very good deal compared to normal form: as it should be. In exchange, it takes you x2 as many actions to heal yourself, blink away from danger, etc. This is *usually not* better than blade hands. It's later in the game, so the slot penalty costs you more, but it varies from game to game. Statue Form is a *lot* harder to cast than blade hands. I just don't think it's competitive with blade hands. — drpraetor 2010-03-02 08:01
I think extended end-game is a good yardstick; it would be great if an all-runer was doable with transmutations, while the spells would be balanced so that they don't make a three-runer trivial.
I take Blade Hands can be an all-runer spell then? One option with not being competitive with Blade Hands is to give Blade Hands a drawback that makes the other forms more appealing in some circumstances. But berserk+blade hands+investing in unarmed skill to make it viable (I assume this is needed) sounds sensible enough. Berserk+statue form+unarmed shouldn't simply supercede that of course.
The example of Ice Form against Asmodeus is excellent! Right form for the right job. I suppose Blade Hands is bad against the Learnean Hydra. :P — evktalo 2010-03-02 09:51
For an all-rune game, necromutation is pretty much better than all the other forms, if you can cast it. This is another major weakness of statue form: you don't want to boost your earth magic to 15, because then you'll never have the XP to boost your necromancy to 20. If you can't get Necromutation, then in hell/pan you alternate between blade hands, spider form and ice form; statue form isn't *useless*, if you can cast it you use it against blue deaths for example, but it isn't worth the investment in earth magic. — drpraetor 2010-03-02 15:07
I haven't played many transmuters, but I would just like to say that recently I saw wya's SETm take out Gloorx Vloq and Antaeus using statue form. — st 2010-03-02 18:40
That's a lot of ideas, and most of them sound fun (I especially love hellvine)! If you're gonna make a distinction between morph and form, though, I think you're using the wrong yardstick: Morphs should be spells that change just one thing, while forms have broader changes. Thus Blade Hands becomes a morph (and needs to be nerfed some to compensate–probably ring loss), and Charge Body and Black Fever should be forms (well I'm iffy on that last one). Anyways, other comments: You should make charge body just stick a elec brand on any unbranded melee attack and cast static discharge as you get hit (and boost EV/rElec of course). Keep it simple. Hellvine should definitely have -Tele if it wasn't the plan already; there should be NO getting out of there early. Crystallize sounds a tad boring but I'm probably underestimating freezing clouds. The transmuted weapons and Detonate sound super-fun, especially the throwing parts. I'd say venom thorn shouldn't have super-poison even though it's fine on hellvine (if you can't count the number of things in the game with super-poison on one hand there's too many). Note that the frost cleaver would be compatible with crystallize, so don't worry about ice form. Freeze Water and Rock to Mud should both use Hexes and the former should be temporary. Also, I'm giving Kyrie its own paragraph. It sounds fun IF you do the wrath thing right, which is to say balance the spell such that the user is expecting wrath. Zin Wrath isn't a good choice (recite is either meaningless or horrible in the kind of high tension situations where you NEED a spell like this, and the rest isn't high tension material) and it's best to be consistent so TSO should handle everything. I'd upgrade it to 50% chance if you're not a worshipper and guaranteed if you worship evil. Also, nerf the wrath to summoning instead of permanent enemies and cap the cleansing flame damage at a % of your health; the wrath should be an added tactical consideration in a probably-already-difficult situation, not an attempt to screw you over in and of itself. Duration should be short so you can't deal with the wrath and THEN charge into combat. Ultimately the tricky thing is balancing it so that it's powerful-but-risky if you don't worship but not overpowered if you do and have maxed piety. Maybe make it cost a huge chunk of piety if you worship good and cause twice the wrath if you're unworthy? Also, undead should be barred from casting Kryie entirely. — brickman 2011-05-08 23:39
Melds the player with a wall. Grants invisibility, AC boost, and stealth boost, but taking any action will cancel the form. Requires a period of set up time (less set up than passwall). When melded, the player can passwall instantly (and gains a boost to passwall distance).
Melding with different types of wall will offer different resists. LOS could be reduced when using the spell. It should be used as a form of ambush and as a high cost escape method (meld + passwall).
Possibly allow melding with large boulders or turn it into a mimic style form (you leave a nice wand sitting out in the open for poor Nikola to pick up, then chop his head off when it turns out to be you). — studiomk 2010-07-30 21:26
How about something like NetHack's polymorph?
Either with player chosen monster, or perhaps as a “Chameleon form” that causes you to randomly polymorph between a level-dependent set of creatures (both with limits, say, never more HD than XL + 1 or 2, and increasing probability starting from 2/3 XL, with an average of XL).
Maybe in addition to this, a Chameleon species could also be added that would offer non-random polymorph.
This requires very non-trivial balancing of the polymorph mechanism, and I'm not sure it's really a good idea, but seems worth mentioning.
— luca 2010-04-25 20:07
Dragon form should give you a form based on your elemental skills This will make the spell much more interesting, and similar to summon elemental.
The idea is that dragon form becomes a pure tmut spell. You turn into the various dragons depending on your elemental skill, tougher dragons requiring higher skill to be successful.
Here's my view on it.
That's my take on the skills requires but, obviously, if the idea is liked (and wanted) it would probably change. — studiomk 2010-09-09 22:15
With N78291's patch making Dragon Form a pure Tmut spell for draconians (who then get to transform into their base type of dragon, which includes all of them except Shadow and Bone), I think having it do something similar to this suggestion for non-draconians would be pretty cool. I don't know if that would be unfair for draconians who want to be a different type of dragon, although they do get the wizardry bonus casting it so maybe that evens it out. Draconians also just keep their existing breath weapons in the patch, I believe, so I don't know how that should work for non-draconians. — marvinpa 2010-10-21 13:07Draconians get their breath weapon upgraded when they transform. — zchris13 2011-01-14 08:09
I like the idea a lot (certainly better than the status quo), but is it really necessary to use 5, 8, 10, 15, and 20? That's a lot of different skill levels. Rather, I think they should all be 10 or maybe 15. It might also be better to restrict it to just the elemental schools.
I picture “my” new Dragon Form as giving you a choice between five types of dragon when cast (automatically choosing plain dragon if you don't have 10 of any elemental skill):
* plain dragon (no breath weapon or resistances),
> There's no iron dragon here, both because I don't think it would play well (unresistible breath and slow…) and because the iron/earth connection is tenuous. — minmay 2011-09-15 23:46
Okay, thinking about it again, this is a bad idea. It introduces breakpoints, is a bit complicated, and requires an annoying prompt. Instead, how about this: Dragon Form is pure Transmutation for everybody, and if you're not a draconian, you don't get any resistances or breath weapon. This is still a buff overall since it's much easier to cast. It could give a bunch more AC or something too in order to make it not way worse than the draconian version - the GDR is pretty worthless without AC itself anyway. — minmay 2012-05-04 20:41
Right now, you can't butcher corpses in Spider Form. Any (un)natural animal should be able to feed itself. Maybe add vampiric-like blood drinking? — sinsi 2011-03-274 16:19
Statue form is OK, but not great. I propose the following for it:
> Uhm no, mere ponderousity is kind of boring here, having the real action cost be != 10 is a good thing.[citation needed] And a significant downside, which means the form can stand a lot of boosts. Plus, it's hard to explain why a slow statue should be able to fight fast or move it hands while casting fast. — kilobyte 2011-03-27 21:09
Cool circular reasoning, bro. It's a slow statue only because we haven't made it non-slow. Ponderousness makes sense: think of it like getting a lot stronger, but a LOT heavier, and being burdened simply carrying your own weight around. (Note also that slow moving monsters have been discussed with dpeg and letting them be ponderous rather than globally slow came up for kiting reasons, so it's not like the act speed reduction has to be done for speed symmetry to golems.) — eronarn 2011-03-27 23:45Uhm, uncomfortable boots do make you slower but don't interfere with you moving your hands. Having stone arms does. — kilobyte 2011-03-27 23:57Having stone arms only interferes with you moving your hands because we say it does. It doesn't have to, and even if it does, that doesn't have to manifest as a penalty to global action speed (remember, statue form even makes you talk slower as of right now). Make better arguments or go away. — eronarn 2011-03-28 00:02
* Right now, the available slots are weapon/cloak/helmet which seem quite randomly chosen. Statue form should allow all equipment slots, but not allow you to change equipment. In other words, you become a statue of what you were wearing at the time of casting.
> I'd give it both increased AC and, more importantly, good GDR instead. — kilobyte 2011-03-27 21:09
Some GDR would make sense, but wearing armor in statue form is something that should definitely happen, and both +lots of AC and +lots of GDR would be too much on top of armor. — eronarn 2011-03-27 23:45
* The form's STR boost should be larger, but it should come with a DEX penalty. Unlike Stoneskin, you're turning completely to stone, and stone is simply not as fast. Consider it like the “stiff muscles” mutation.
— eronarn 2011-03-27 18:42
Make “Sticks to Snakes” castable from inventory
Sticks to snakes can be made less fussy if it is castable from inventory instead of requiring you to wield the sticks. This especially benefits players who explore in shifted form. The spell could default by selecting whatever item you have quivered. If nothing appropriate was quivered, it could call up a menu just as evaporate does. — cjo 2011-10-31