[I believe that most of the content below the line can go; we remade the starting screens. But I not sure what to scrap, so I left everything in place.]

dpeg 2010-09-21 14:46: This section is about reducing the number of choices on the first two screens (choice of species, choice of background). Here is why I want that:

• New players are easily overwhelmed by the almost thirty choices on each of these screens. This is not some hypothetical problem, it actually happens. (Players with experience in the genre are much less prone to this, of course.)
• Restricting initial choices also makes it easier for us to indicate highly different, yet very viable combinations. As players get more experience, they will appreciate the subtler points afforded by the additional choices.

I am aware of the problems:

• Many players like the full range from the start.
• You may be experience, but installing a new version, the game wouldn't know.

So here is the proposal:

• Use restricted sets of species and backgrounds for new players (this has to be tracked somehow). Starting with just three options for each is good.
• Players can access more choices by each of the following:
  1. Unlock new species/backgrounds by reaching certain goals like reaching the Temple, the Lair, XL 5 etc. (Note that we are not talking about winning here, but way easier goals.)
  2. Set an option in the init file.
  3. Press some key in the starting screens.

One technical way to go about this would be having some number N which tells you how many species/backgrounds to display. “Unlocking” alluded to above would increase N, presumably by more than 1. For this, it would be necessary to order the recommended backgrounds per species (and also the recommended species per background), so that we can print the top N of this list.

Remembering my own first experiences with the game, I do agree this is a problem. I feel like it could be alleviated somewhat by simply removing some of the redundant or outright bad choices that are currently available. To give a couple of examples: mummies are currently a rather lousy choice of race; instead of trying to 'fix' them, perhaps they could be removed altogether? And is it really necessary to have both mountain dwarves and minotaurs, given that they essentially fill the same niche? — dtsund 2010-09-22 00:24

If you've been around for a while, you know that we are not afraid of taking drastic measures: we have removed four species so far (Elf, Grey Elf, Hill Dwarf, Gnome). Okay, Gnomes kind of resurfaces as Deep Dwarves later, but I think everyone will agree that DD is different. Mummy is also different enough and wise men have told me that it's good to allow certain players to have a scumming tool. There are plans to make dwarves small, which would differentiate them clearly from Minotaurs.
Altogether, I don't think that removal is a good way to make the starting screens light enough for new players. Ultimately, I would like to have 27 (differentiated) species! — dpeg 2010-09-22 11:23

I personally don't like the idea of locking choices. Would it be within reason to just add an option (perhaps as the default for new players) on the character selection menus only to show very basic (and of course beginner-friendly) species, backgrounds, and combos, similarly to how hints mode only allows MiBe, DECj, and CeHu? If it's really worth the effort, I guess the option could have a sort of unlocking (e.g. elementalists unlocked after playing a wizard to temple, or Reavers/Crusaders after getting melee on a spellcaster or spellcasting on a fightey character). — MrMisterMonkey 2010-09-22 22:14

You did see that I offered three ways to unlock everything? (And I meant that all three should be available.) If you don't like it, for example because you're a veteran and just use a new version, then set the option or press that key. — dpeg 2010-09-23 09:58

Oops; I only noticed the first two. I do think the full range should appear by default, though. — MrMisterMonkey 2010-09-23 10:10

The point is precisely that we want to protect new players from being overwhelmed by long lists. Hence the restricted range has to be default. I agree that we want to make it as easy as possible to get the full range for anyone (else). I always design with new players on mind. — dpeg 2010-09-23 10:44

I'm not sure if flat-out restricting choices by default is the best way to go. I remember feeling a little overwhelmed when I first started, but much more than that I was excited by the huge variety and the amount of depth it promised. If my only choices were to pick from an extremely limited tutorial-like character list or unlock everything instantly and suffer the consequences, I'd have surely opted for the latter. I think a more modest change would be best. My suggestion: leave everything unlocked, but add a button marked “Help me create a character”. Then ask one or two tiers of questions and suggest a couple of race/class combinations based on the result. For example: “Would you like to play a: a) Melee fighter b) Ranged fighter c) Spellcaster d) Battlemage.” Choosing A prompts stuff like MDFi, MiGl, and TrBe, D suggests HECr, MfIE, and SETr, C asks whether you would prefer raw magical damage (KeCj, DEFE) or variety/control (DEWz, VpEN, SpVM), and so on. This lets you introduce the player to a very wide variety of races and backgrounds while still limiting them to viable combinations and making it clear how each one is meant to be played, all without needing to greet them with a ton of grayed-out options. Maybe give each option a very brief description of how that class plays and why that race excels at it, along with explaining any special considerations (like the specific dietary needs of Trolls, Vampires, and Spriggans). This also has the added benefit of categorizing races in a way that will help guide the player towards good ways to mix-and-match on their own (“I like the Wizard's spellbook, but I don't like how fragile Deep Elves are…I remember High Elves were listed among more durable magically-apt races; maybe I'll try a High Elf Wizard”). — Sjohara 2010-10-16 00:51

I like this idea. It could work very well. A detailed proposal could make this a more short-term goal. — dpeg 2010-10-16 02:07

dpeg 2010-03-08 12:35: Hijacking this by replying on the top, but I won't add another screen. The following points have been confirmed by keskitalo.

• Let's use three columns. Some of the later designs on this page are very appealing.
• We should make no extreme attempts at sorting; there is no ideal solution (would need three dimensions or a graph for that), and backgrounds will come, backgrounds will go.
• Please keep the current colour coding (darkgrey for not recommended). There is no need to add text somewhere and it would be worse, in my opinion, to split the table into two parts. (This is because now the position of all species/backgrounds is fixed on the screen. And that's worth a lot.)
• ”(un)viable” is better than ”(not) recommended”.
• Just like in the Start / Welcome Menu, there should be cursor (i.e. a bar that you can move with the cursor keys, e.g. ==Berserker==). When you start a new game, the bars will be on your last choice. (The only slight problem occurs if you have chosen an incompatible species/background, in which case the bar should be shown differently, of course). The advantage of using the cursor at twofold:
  1. Enter is now obviously the key for “keep last choice”.
  2. We can spend 1, 2 or 3 lines at the bottom about the species or background under the cursor. I can come up with text, if desired. (Note that this is mostly of use for console. Tiles already has mouseover information.)
• There remains the questions of whether/how to put the tutorials on the selection screens. On the one hand, the new menu-driven starting screen will make it much easier to detect the tutorial. On the other hand, dgl does not have the starting screen. Then again, we can have a special solution for dgl. E.g., we can put Tutorial to the DGL menu. We can also check if the player has played no games on the server, and ask “would you like to play tutorial first?” in the DGL menu before launching regular Crawl, ifthe player chooses 'p'lay instead of 't'utorial.
  • Yes, I think this seems like the natural choice. After all, dgl already has a menu of its own and hooking the tutorial in there shouldn't be too difficult, seeing how we need to add a hook for the new minigame anyway. — jpeg 2010-03-13 00:18

The character selection screen is currently quite cluttered, and much of the information is scrunched up all the way at the bottom.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (this line has eighty dashes)
Welcome, TGW the Mummy.  (Press Ctrl-T to enter a tutorial.)

You can be:  (Press ? for more information, % for a list of aptitudes)
    a - Fighter                       b - Gladiator
    c - Monk                          d - Berserker
        Paladin N/A                   f - Priest
        Healer N/A                    h - Chaos Knight
    i - Death Knight                  j - Crusader
    k - Reaver                        l - Warper
    m - Wizard                        n - Conjurer
    o - Enchanter                     p - Summoner
    q - Necromancer                   r - Transmuter
    s - Fire Elementalist             t - Ice Elementalist
    u - Air Elementalist              v - Earth Elementalist
    w - Venom Mage                    x - Stalker
    y - Thief                         z - Assassin
    A - Hunter                        B - Artificer
    C - Arcane Marksman               D - Wanderer

Enter - Earth Elementalist          Tab - Mountain Dwarf Earth Elementalist
    * - Random background             + - Good random background
    ! - Random character              # - Good random character

Which background?  (Press space to choose your species first.)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (this line has eighty dashes)
Welcome, TGW the Mummy.  (Press Ctrl-T to enter a tutorial.)

You can be:  (Press ? for more information, % for a list of aptitudes)
    a - Fighter                       b - Gladiator
    c - Monk                          d - Berserker
        Paladin N/A                   f - Priest
        Healer N/A                    h - Chaos Knight
    i - Death Knight                  j - Crusader
    k - Reaver                        l - Warper
    m - Wizard                        n - Conjurer
    o - Enchanter                     p - Summoner
    q - Necromancer                   r - Transmuter
    s - Fire Elementalist             t - Ice Elementalist
    u - Air Elementalist              v - Earth Elementalist
    w - Venom Mage                    x - Stalker
    y - Thief                         z - Assassin
    A - Hunter                        B - Artificer
    C - Arcane Marksman               D - Wanderer

Enter - Earth Elementalist          Tab - Mountain Dwarf Earth Elementalist
Space - Choose species first        Esc - Go back
  +/* - Good/random background      #/! - Good/random character

Which background?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

An alternative to consider, buys us a line at the expense of some clarity. Note I've used that line here for space/esc — marcmagus 2010-03-04 05:08

Both of the above would already be nice improvements. — dpeg 2010-03-04 13:51

.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (this line has eighty dashes)
Welcome, TGW the Mummy.  (Press Ctrl-T to enter a tutorial.)

You can be:  (Press ? for more information, % for a list of aptitudes)

a - Fighter              n - Crusader                  u - Summoner
b - Gladiator            o - Reaver                    v - Necromancer
c - Monk                 p - Transmuter                w - Wizard
d - Hunter               q - Arcane Marksman           x - Conjurer
e - Assassin             r - Enchanter                 y - Venom Mage
f - Thief                s - Stalker                   z - Fire Elementalist
g - Artificer            t - Warper                    A - Ice Elementalist
                                                       B - Earth Elementalist
h - Priest                                             C - Air Elementalist	
    Healer N/A
    Paladin N/A                                        D - Wanderer
k - Berserker
l - Chaos Knight
m - Death Knight

Enter - Earth Elementalist          Tab - Mountain Dwarf Earth Elementalist
* - Random background               + - Good random background
! - Random character                # - Good random character

Which background?  (Press space to choose your species first.)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here's a regrouping of classes by broad theme - martial, divine (and caster DKs ugh), explicit hybrid, “pure” caster, wanderer. I think it makes a good bit more sense than the current pile. At the very least, having three columns makes things look roomier, there's no need to indent things from the left margin, and putting in that newly-gained space between “You can be” and the classlist makes things a bit nicer. I also don't think there's anything fundamentally terrible about the current screen, really. (Also, if this is poorly aligned you'll have to use your imaginations, I've had absurd amounts of trouble getting it to the current state.) — og17 2010-03-04 08:25

I am fine with three columns (and the additional blank line after “You can be…” is very nice) but I am not so sure about the grouping. By construction, several baclgrounds will fall into more than one group, no matter how you slice it. (Three columns will be especially good once we're at 27 species and 27 backgrounds.) — dpeg 2010-03-04 13:51

I really like the way this orders the letters vertically in the columns. I find it much easier to find the letters than the current [horizontal] ordering. I think it should be applied to all two and three column layouts, grouping things so you scan down the first column, then down the second[, then down the third]. For me, at least, this is how I naturally read, and the current menus are confusing. — marcmagus 2010-03-04 18:25

I agree, and it is for the same reason I find it more difficult to read three columns than two. — jpeg 2010-03-04 23:43

Hello! I'm Aslak from Eino's usability project team. We've also made a few new layout designs that we were planning to return along with our usability report. However since you've already started brainstorming about the subject I think it's better to share what we have now rather than later.

First of all we have two designs for species selection menu, one for normal case and one for a case where character background has been selected before species.

Welcome, Tester. Please select your species.

To enter tutorial press CTRL + T

a - Human                       b - High Elf
c - Deep Elf                    d - Sludge Elf
e - Mountain Dwarf              f - Deep Dwarf
g - Hill Orc                    h - Merfolk
i - Halfling                    j - Kobold
k - Spriggan                    l - Naga
m - Centaur                     n - Ogre
o - Troll                       p - Minotaur
q - Kenku                       r - Draconian
s - Demigod                     t - Demonspawn
u - Mummy                       v - Ghoul
w - Vampire

Space   Choose class first      *       Random species    
#       Good random character   !       Random character
Enter   Spriggan                Tab     Spriggan Venom Mage
X       Quit

This is also a definite improvement, especially because of the line dedicated to the tutorials. Note that Start / Welcome Menu discusses the starting screen and suggests that the menu for that screen should contain a Tutorial option. — dpeg 2010-03-04 13:51

Case where background has already been selected:

Welcome, Tester the Venom Mage. Please select your species.

To enter tutorial press CTRL + T

a - Human                       c - Deep Elf
d - Sludge Elf                  h - Merfolk
j - Kobold                      k - Spriggan
l - Naga                        n - Ogre
q - Kenku                       r - Draconian
s - Demigod                     t - Demonspawn
u - Mummy

Unrecomended (weak race/class combination)
b - High Elf                    e - Mountain Dwarf
f - Deep Dwarf                  g - Hill Orc
i - Halfling                    m - Centaur
o - Troll                       p - Minotaur
v - Ghoul                       w - Vampire

+       Good random             *       Random
Enter   Spriggan                Tab     Spriggan Venom Mage
Bksp    Back to class selection X       Quit

> I don't really like this. In my opinion, it's better to have all the choices at fixed positions, and use colour to indicate (un)viability. There was a huge discussion about if/how bad it is that a very new player does not notice how the darkgrey choices can be used. I think that this is not a drawback, but a desirable feature. Similar comments apply to the background selections. — dpeg 2010-03-04 13:51

Next two designs for character background selection:

Welcome, Tester the Spriggan. Please select your class.

To enter tutorial press CTRL + T

Fighters
a - Fighter                     b - Gladiator
c - Monk                        d - Berserker
e - Paladin                     f - Priest
g - Healer                      h - Chaos Knight
i - Death Knight                j - Crusader
k - Reaver                      l - Warper

Casters
m - Wizard                      n - Conjurer
o - Enchanter                   p - Summoner
q - Necromancer                 r - Transmuter
s - Fire Elementalist           v - Earth Elementalist
w - Venom Mage

Thieves
x - Stalker                     y - Thief
z - Assassin                    A - Hunter
B - Artificer                   C - Arcane Marksman
D - Wanderer

+       Good random             *       Random
Enter   Venom Mage              Tab     Spriggan Venom Mage
Bksp    Back to previous menu   X       Quit

Second protorype with weak classes seperated:

Welcome, Tester the Spriggan. Please select your class.

To enter tutorial press CTRL + T

Fighters
l - Warper

Casters
o - Enchanter                   u - Air Elementalist
w - Venom Mage

Thieves
x - Stalker                     z - Assassin
A - Hunter                      B - Artificer
C - Arcane Marksman

Unrecomended (weak race/class combination)
a - Fighter                     b - Gladiator
c - Monk                        d - Berserker
e - Paladin                     f - Priest
g - Healer                      h - Chaos Knight
i - Death Knight                j - Crusader
k - Reaver                      m - Wizard
n - Conjurer                    p - Summoner
q - Necromancer                 r - Transmuter
s - Fire Elementalist           t - Ice Elementalist
v - Earth Elementalist          y - Thief
D - Wanderer

+       Good random             *       Random
Enter   Venom Mage              Tab     Spriggan Venom Mage
Bksp    Back to previous menu   X       Quit

Then a few notes:

• In cases where it is possible to select “good random” and “random” the good random selection should be shown on left side and random on right side. Reason for this would be that good random would appear first in normal reading order. This prevents very hasty players selecting “random” giving them possibly bad character before option of good random character is presented.
  • Agreed. — dpeg 2010-03-04 13:51
• Placing both good random and random for background or entire character should be placed on same line for clarity.
• Should “good” be possibly replaced with another word? Few possible alternatives: Recommended, Viable, Strong, Powerful, Desirable, Advisable
  • I keep suggesting “viable” for some time now. — dpeg 2010-03-04 13:51
• Layout for controls at the bottom of the screen look great on the first two layout designs of this page. Indentation of background selections make the entire page look more consistent.
• In our evaluation and testing we noticed that the players had trouble noticing the tutorial. Does the brackets make tutorial text look less important, causing it to be ignored? Would dropping help text for ? and % to the bottom of the screen along with other controls improve visibility of tutorial?
  • This is definitely a concern, and I hope that a menu for the starting screen will help here. As will a more standout choice for the tutorials from the other selection screens. — dpeg 2010-03-04 13:51
• Dedicating entire line for the tutorial should increase its visibility.
• This may be just a personal preferance, but I would think that Enter and Tab for selecting previously selected species/background should be at the bottom of the list as it is something a new player would less likely pick, especially on first time launching the game.
  • I agree. — dpeg 2010-03-04 13:51
• If the character classes are grouped according to some sort of theme or archtype there should be a name to describe that group of characters. Only grouping certain types of characters together in a pile does not give enough information especially to new players. (even as a heavy gamer I have no idea what a warper or a reaver is)
  • I am not sure about grouping. There won't ever be a consistent way to do it. — dpeg 2010-03-04 13:51
• Personally I find “You can be:” line unnecessary. Purpose of the screen is obviously shown on the very first line that says “Please select your background.”
  • True. — dpeg 2010-03-04 13:51
• I suggest to follow og17's lead and use three columns. This will also allow more blank lines. — dpeg 2010-03-04 13:51

Based on these notes one more suggestion for the bottom block of the background selection screen:

    ? - More information              % - List of aptitudes
Space - Choose species first        Esc - Go back
  +/* - Good/random background      #/! - Good/random character
Enter - Earth Elementalist          Tab - Mountain Dwarf Earth Elementalist

— aslakkar 2010-03-04 11:49

I've read all of this and it's pretty impressive. This seems to cover a lot of it:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (this line has eighty dashes)
Welcome, TGW the Kobold.  (Press Ctrl-T to enter a tutorial.)

    % - List of aptitudes             ? - Help

    a - Fighter            i - Death Knight       r - Wizard
    b - Gladiator          j - Crusader           s - Conjurer
    c - Monk               k - Reaver             t - Summoner
                           l - Warper             u - Necromancer
    d - Berserker          m - Transmuter
    e - Paladin            n - Enchanter          v - Fire Elementalist
    f - Priest             o - Stalker            w - Ice Elementalist
    g - Healer                                    x - Air Elementalist
    h - Chaos Knight       p - Assassin           y - Earth Elementalist
    i - Death Knight       q - Thief              z - Venom Mage

    A - Hunter                        C - Artificer
    B - Arcane Marksman               D - Wanderer

Enter - Earth Elementalist          Tab - Mountain Dwarf Earth Elementalist
    + - Viable background             * - Random background
    # - Viable character              ! - Random character

Which background?  (Press space to choose your species first.)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Death Knight is listed twice intentionally, but not necessarily. If there's something good you can do with a single line, this version has a line left over.

I don't think the explicit listing of escape is entirely necessary, since it's so universal. I'm pretty happy with this one! — TGW 2010-03-04 22:05

.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (this line has eighty dashes)
Welcome, TGW the Kobold.  (Press Ctrl-T to enter a tutorial.)

    You can be: 

    a - Fighter            i - Death Knight       u - Wizard
    b - Gladiator          l - Crusader           v - Conjurer
    c - Monk               m - Reaver             w - Summoner
                           n - Warper             x - Necromancer
    d - Berserker          o - Transmuter
    e - Paladin            p - Enchanter          y - Fire Elementalist
    f - Priest             q - Stalker            z - Ice Elementalist
    g - Healer                                    A - Air Elementalist
    h - Chaos Knight       r - Assassin           B - Earth Elementalist
    i - Death Knight       s - Thief              C - Venom Mage

    j - Hunter             t - Artificer          D - Wanderer
    k - Arcane Marksman

Enter - Earth Elementalist          Tab - Mountain Dwarf Earth Elementalist
    + - Viable background             * - Random background
    # - Viable character              ! - Random character

Which background?  Press space to choose your species first.
(Press % to list aptitudes, ? for help, and Esc to go back.)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I put the space/%/?/esc options on one line, I think this works better. I like “You can be” but it can stay or go, with the rest it'd be two more lines without it.

Grouping seems to be on shaky ground in general, but I'd caution against giving “borderline” classes like DKs two entries in groupings, as futures classes may use too many spaces with it and it makes the letters jump - I'm very fond of vertically-descending alphabetical listings, though (for what it's worth, this wasn't an intentional change, but one that came naturally when reassigning letters - I didn't actually notice I did it until Marc pointed it out). Anyway, I don't like artificer with wanderer - “wanderer” alone was to show it's different than other classes, not to make a catch-all “other” pile. Artificer could have its own category, I guess, with wanderer alone in the last column, though I think it's okay to have the initially noncasting classes together.

If anyone's wondering, only reason I'm starting the initial line with a period is that the wiki insists on making the line a numbered list otherwise; it's not meant as a change. — OG17 2010-03-04 22:40

Tweaked this to actually fit in the alloted space (browser font isn't fixed-width, oops). — OG17 2010-03-04 23:39

Degrouped and compressed. Five free lines!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (this line has eighty dashes)
Welcome, TGW the Kobold.  (Press Ctrl-T to enter a tutorial.)

    a - Fighter            k - Crusader             u - Wizard
    b - Gladiator          l - Reaver               v - Conjurer
    c - Monk               m - Transmuter           w - Summoner
    d - Berserker          n - Warper               x - Necromancer
    e - Paladin            o - Enchanter            y - Fire Elementalist
    f - Priest             p - Stalker              z - Ice Elementalist
    g - Healer             q - Assassin             A - Air Elementalist
    h - Chaos Knight       r - Thief                B - Earth Elementalist
    i - Death Knight       s - Hunter               C - Venom Mage
    j - Artificer          t - Arcane Marksman      D - Wanderer
      
Enter - Earth Elementalist          Tab - Mountain Dwarf Earth Elementalist
    + - Viable background             * - Random background
    # - Viable character              ! - Random character
    % - List aptitudes                ? - Help

Which background?  (Press space to choose your species first.)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I like this one best. With the comment that Enter and Tab should be last and not first, and that the free space should be used to give the Tutorial it's extra line (right on top), surrounded by blank lines. — dpeg 2010-03-05 00:11

Horizontal version of the above.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (this line has eighty dashes)
Welcome, TGW the Kobold.  (Press Ctrl-T to enter a tutorial.)

    a - Fighter            b - Gladiator            c - Monk
    d - Berserker          e - Chaos Knight         f - Death Knight
    g - Paladin            h - Priest               i - Healer
    j - Wizard             k - Conjurer             l - Fire Elementalist
    m - Summoner           n - Necromancer          o - Ice Elementalist
    p - Crusader           q - Reaver               r - Air Elementalist
    s - Warper             t - Transmuter           u - Earth Elementalist
    v - Enchanter          w - Stalker              y - Venom Mage
    x - Assassin           z - Thief                A - Artificer
    B - Hunter             C - Arcane Marksman      D - Wanderer
      
Enter - Earth Elementalist          Tab - Mountain Dwarf Earth Elementalist
    + - Viable background             * - Random background
    # - Viable character              ! - Random character
    % - List aptitudes                ? - Help

Which background?  (Press space to choose your species first.)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What would be nice is if we could remove the “which background?” line and allow the cursor to select backgrounds the way it does saves. The saved space (seven freaking lines) could be used for any number of things, the suggestion I've seen so far being to put the description for the cursored choice on the screen itself. — TGW 2010-03-04 23:38

Yes, that sounds neat. I could imagine a cursor mode, as long as you can use all the keys we already have. And of course, the cursor would by default be on your last choice, so that “Enter = last species/background” would be automatically true. (Note: there can be a clash if you've played a HuHe last game, and now choose Mu as species. Should the cursor be on Healer? Perhaps in some other colour.) — dpeg 2010-03-05 00:11

The following replaces the “which one?” prompt with a tutorial line, replaces “enter” with “space,” and moves that line to the bottom. There are five unallocated lines.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Welcome, TGW the Kobold.

Press Ctrl-T to play an in-game tutorial.

    a - Fighter            k - Crusader             u - Wizard
    b - Gladiator          l - Reaver               v - Conjurer
    c - Monk               m - Transmuter           w - Summoner
    d - Berserker          n - Warper               x - Necromancer
    e - Paladin            o - Enchanter            y - Fire Elementalist
    f - Priest             p - Stalker              z - Ice Elementalist
    g - Healer             q - Assassin             A - Air Elementalist
    h - Chaos Knight       r - Thief                B - Earth Elementalist
    i - Death Knight       s - Hunter               C - Venom Mage
    j - Artificer          t - Arcane Marksman      D - Wanderer

    + - Viable background             * - Random background
    # - Viable character              ! - Random character
    % - List aptitudes                ? - Help
Space - Choose species first        Tab - Mountain Dwarf Earth Elementalist
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

— TGW 2010-03-05 01:39

Based on other layout suggestions, we've come up with second iteration of the class selection menu layout.

Two column version with total 24 lines with one line for description text:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Welcome, TGW the Mummy. Please select your background.

    a - Fighter                       b - Gladiator
    c - Monk                          d - Berserker
        Paladin N/A                   f - Priest
        Healer N/A                    h - Chaos Knight
    i - Death Knight                  j - Crusader
    k - Reaver                        l - Warper
    m - Wizard                        n - Conjurer
    o - Enchanter                     p - Summoner
    q - Necromancer                   r - Transmuter
    s - Fire Elementalist             t - Ice Elementalist
    u - Air Elementalist              v - Earth Elementalist
    w - Venom Mage                    x - Stalker
    y - Thief                         z - Assassin
    A - Hunter                        B - Artificer
    C - Arcane Marksman               D - Wanderer

        Description text goes here

    % - List aptitudes                ? - Help
    + - Viable background             * - Random background
    # - Viable character              ! - Random character
Space - Choose species first        Tab - Mountain Dwarf Earth Elementalist
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Three column version with total 19 lines with one or up to six lines for description text:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Welcome, TGW the Mummy. Please select your background.
                     
     a Fighter                k Crusader               u Wizard
     b Gladiator              l Reaver                 v Conjurer
     c Monk                   m Transmuter             w Summoner
     d Berserker              n Warper                 x Necromancer
     e Paladin                o Enchanter              y Fire Elementalist
     f Priest                 p Stalker                z Ice Elementalist
     g Healer                 q Assassin               A Air Elementalist
     h Chaos Knight           r Thief                  B Earth Elementalist
     i Death Knight           s Hunter                 C Venom Mage
     j Artificer              t Arcane Marksman        D Wanderer

       Description text goes here

     + Viable background      * Random background
     # Viable character       ! Random character
     % List aptitudes         ? Help
 Space Pick species first   Tab Mountain Dwarf Earth Elementalist
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Notes:

• Tutorial line has been removed because it appears in the new start menu
• On three column version menu controls aligned with background selection columns
• On three column version “Choose” replaced with “Pick” and dashes between keys and menu items removed in order to save space. Reason below:

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     + - Viable background    * - Random background
     # - Viable character     ! - Random character
     % - List aptitudes       ? - Help
 Space - Choose species firsTab - Mountain Dwarf Earth Elementalist
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• Could be solved by switching Help and Choose species, but would this change make the menu somewhat illogical?

— aslakkar 2010-03-05 14:51

• This last one is my favorite proposal on here. The alignment makes it look prettier than the dashes do, I think. I would just recommend printing the keypresses and the results in different colours. — TGW 2010-03-05 16:54

1. ——————————————————————————-

Welcome, 20-character-name-pl the Mountain Dwarf. Please select your background.

Welcome, 19-character-name-p the Earth Elementalist. Please select your species.

• Above for reference on potential limitations to the condensed first line. I think this should be ok: there should be logic to truncate the player name if necessary anyway. Wording can be tweaked if it's important to accomodate >19 chars or species/background names get longer. — marcmagus 2010-03-05 17:46

• The screen looks far better with dashes, and using dashes is consistent with how the game itself displays information. Am I missing something, or could the width concern be addressed simply by shifting the bottom right column over? The line's nowhere near eighty characters, and there's no reason the lower columns need to use the same alignment as the upper. — OG17 2010-03-05 21:06

uh guys

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Welcome, TGW the Kobold. Please select your background.

    a - Fighter               k - Crusader                u - Wizard
    b - Gladiator             l - Reaver                  v - Conjurer
    c - Monk                  m - Transmuter              w - Summoner
    d - Berserker             n - Warper                  x - Necromancer
    e - Paladin               o - Enchanter               y - Fire Elementalist
    f - Priest                p - Stalker                 z - Ice Elementalist
    g - Healer                q - Assassin                A - Air Elementalist
    h - Chaos Knight          r - Thief                   B - Earth Elementalist
    i - Death Knight          s - Hunter                  C - Venom Mage
    j - Artificer             t - Arcane Marksman         D - Wanderer

Description
Description
Description
Description
Description
Description

    + - Viable background     * - Random background
    # - Viable character      ! - Random character
    % - List aptitudes        ? - Help
Space - Pick species first  Tab - Mountain Dwarf Earth Elementalist
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

— TGW 2010-03-13 01:14

This is outstanding! A minor remark: we may want to include “Backspace” (or an abbreviation) in the shortcut list (only when the player already chose a species). And what about “Esc”?. Note that a tiny bit of space could be saved by moving Space to the righthand column. — dpeg 2010-03-14 00:28

Thanks! We could change “Space - Pick species first” to “Space - Change species” if a species is already chosen (I believe the two keys function identically). We could save space by moving “Space,” but I think this grouping is most intuitive. I'm also not worried about horizontal space unless there are plans to make longer backgrounds than “Earth Elementalist.” I figured Esc was intuitive enough to omit, but if the starting menu becomes important it may be worth using a line for. — TGW 2010-03-14 01:54

1. ——————————————————————————-

Pick your character's species!

    a - Human                 i - Halfling                q - Kenku
    b - High Elf              j - Kobold                  r - Draconian
    c - Deep Elf              k - Spriggan                s - Demigod
    d - Sludge Elf            l - Naga                    t - Demonspawn
    e - Mountain Dwarf        m - Centaur                 u - Mummy
    f - Deep Dwarf            n - Ogre                    v - Ghoul
    g - Hill Orc              o - Troll                   w - Vampire
    h - Merfolk               p - Minotaur

                              * - Random species
    # - Viable character      ! - Random character
    % - List aptitudes        ? - Help
Space - Pick background fir Tab - Mountain Dwarf Earth Elementalist
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm trying to figure out what to do with the last line. dpeg suggests putting Space at the right of another line. I'm going to leave this page unlocked while I wait for inspiration. Maybe one of you guys will figure it out. — TGW 2010-03-14 02:24

    g - Hill Orc              o - Troll                   w - Vampire
    h - Merfolk               p - Minotaur

                              * - Random species
    # - Viable character      ! - Random character
    ? - help              Space - Pick background first
    % - List aptitudes      Tab - Mountain Dwarf Earth Elementalist
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------      

or also

g - Hill Orc              o - Troll                   w - Vampire
h - Merfolk               p - Minotaur

# - Viable character      ! - Random character      Esc - Abort
? - help                  * - Random species      Space - Pick background first
% - List aptitudes      Tab - Mountain Dwarf Earth Elementalist
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There are a lot of options, I am not worried. — dpeg 2010-03-14 03:19

If you select a character background before a race, and then check the aptitude screen, the recommended races could be highlighted, like your current race is highlighted when checking the aptitude screen during the game. galehar

I like this. — TGW 2010-03-22 20:03

    a - Fighter               j - Crusader                s - Wizard
    b - Gladiator             k - Reaver                  t - Conjurer
    c - Monk                  l - Transmuter              u - Summoner
    d - Berserker             m - Warper                  v - Necromancer
    e - Paladin               n - Enchanter               w - Fire Elementalist
    f - Priest                o - Stalker                 x - Ice Elementalist
    g - Healer                p - Assassin                y - Air Elementalist
    h - Chaos Knight          q - Hunter                  z - Earth Elementalist
    i - Artificer             r - Arcane Marksman         A - Venom Mage
                                                          B - Wanderer