| Name | dcss:feedback:god: beogh |
|---|---|
| Summary | Apostles. A way to make Beogh play smoother. |
| Related Pages | Ally Management |
| Added by | dpeg |
| Added on | 2010-02-11 18:35 |
Since Beogh got dungeon-wide recall, the god plays a lot simpler. With monsters not picking up items anymore, we need to think about how orc allies can get better gear nonetheless. Here are four unrelated proposals, one of them dealing with items. — dpeg 2014-05-16 23:42
Proposal:Summoning of Beogh can be Recall in Silence state called to mind
Proposal:Available in the Abyss
Proposal:Players can wear the desired item forcibly a colleague
Proposal:Cure Poison available to colleagues
Proposal:Confusion when colleagues are forced stop state
Currently, Beogh followers are expected to pray over orc corpses (“mourning”). This makes for great flavour, but means little gameplay-wise (just like for all other corpse sacrifices, apart from Fedhas).
Proposal: Praying over an orc corpse (formerly allied or not) has a chance to revive the orc (always as an ally). Chance depends on piety and should be at most 50% at maximal piety. If the corpse is already rotten, resurrection only leads to a skeleton or zombie (i.e. level bound), or at least has a chance to do so.
Aims with this change:
Generally, you don't want all your orcs on the battlefield; especially, you don't care about the minor ones.
Proposal: Recall only brings back part of your orc followership.
Part could mean something like a fixed number (e.g. 12), or a fixed fraction (e.g. 1/3). Alternatively, there could be Minor Recall and Major Recall.
This is an attempt to improve the interface.
Without monster pickup, it's crucial that orc followers get better gear with time.
Proposal: Beogh intervention improves items of followers:
Open question: do we want special upgrades for warriors as opposed to casters/priests? For example, priests could stick with their armour but get more resistances whereas warriors would upgrade armour base types but only get one resistance.
This is often demanded, but we need to be very careful. It would be very bad if whatever system we come up with leads to extended micromanagement. In other words, we need tight restrictions.
Proposal: Players can give items to orc followers, subject to
Of these, the first restriction should make the interface bearable: baptising occurs rarely enough that it's a joy rather than a pain to hand over items. The second restriction is about scumming prevention, and in order to induce decisions — you are permanently parting with the item you give to a fellow orc. The third one is also about choices: you can give an orc a great weapon or a great armour, but not both.
This is a mechanic that Crawl Light already has — in particular, code can be taken from the fork.
Proposal: Drinking a potion applies the effect to all nearby orcish allies.
Content below this line bound to be cut at some point. — dpeg 2014-05-17 00:02
I believe that Beogh is a very interesting god, and I know that many players like the concept. However, things can become tedious… When you are leading dozens of orcs around the dungeon, trying to make sure that some follow (or not). In my opinion, the early game should be exactly as now: you build piety by killing and becoming stronger, and orcs may bow to you. We should keep the idea of raising plain orcs to warlords. What I came up with, are two new ideas: making Orc:1 your official homeland (where all followers will wait for you, unless you ordered them to wait somewhere) and apostles (named followers which you can easily select to have a small band of strong allies).
Followers named by Beogh are officially apostles. There should be a limit of them; 12 seems to be a popular number among messiahs. If you have at least one apostle (you can lose them in battle, of course), there is a new option in the t menu:
A - Choose number of apostles to follow you.
If you take this option, then you can select between 1 and 12. These apostles will follow you (if you have opted to leave some apostles behind, the best should go with you). The game tries to have a good set of apostles: mostly melee, but starting with six or so, also a priest and a wizard. If you have fewer apostles than ordered, then the remaining slots will be filled with your best non-apostles (and you can try to get them up the ladder as usual).
If your apostle count is less than the cap, Beogh will hand out names again, but only if you have eligible candidates. (In other words, the Beogh naming mechanism stays as now; but is dormant if you are at the apostle cap. However, Beogh might name apostles in your Homeland while you're somewhere else. This would allow for a very smooth play: you lose an apostle in battle; you keep playing; you get a message that Ulfgard has just been beoghened; you call for all apostles, all but Ulfgard already being there; some time later, Ulfgard joins you.)
Apostles could get better AI, so you don't have to worry about them so much:
Two additional proposals to make it better:
There should be a new t option
H - Send follower to Homeland (Orc:1)
if
Orcs that follow you but don't go with you should be heading home (Orc:1) and you can pick them up there again. This goes for ordinary orcs and for apostles which are jobless because you chose to take only some apostles with you. If you order orcs to “wait here”, they should do that (and this could perhaps be listed as a map annotation?).
Orc knights and warlords have an aura that boost defence and offence of lower orcs. Orc knights have a 2 square radius aura that gives a small boost to warriors and a medium boost to plain orcs. Orc warlords have a 4 square radius aura that gives a small boost to knights, a medium boost to warriors and a large boost to plain orcs. The player (as a messiah of Beogh) can be boosted, but not boost himself.
+1, I find that warlords sort of kill it currently. They're too overpowered separately, but they're pretty much a one shot thing. As soon as your original orc band that you found in the mines is gone, then everything else is pretty useless. Bim
It might make sense for Beogh to extend his messiah's resistances to all or at least the strongest (named) followers. There could be a chance of your resistances applying if the follower doesn't have it, and/or they could apply only partially to the damage reduction. This would be both intuitive and flavourful, and there would be no grinding involved because the player will want to upgrade their own resistances anyway. Another advantage would be that building up new strong followers if your old warlords happen to die becomes easier.
One big disadvantage is the power spiral: it would especially benefit characters who are already strong, i.e. someone who's already found a source of rElec as opposed to someone who hasn't, so maybe this could come in the form of a blessing instead: Beogh blessing followers with a random resistance. — jpeg 2010-12-30 13:48
I'll second doing it by random blessings. Beogh already randomly gives your orcs blessings to make them stronger. This just extends on that. There should be a cap on the number of resistances though. Perhaps five, or two for plain orcs and one more for each tier increase (so warlords get five), with three for first-tier casters and five for second tier casters. There's eleven elemental resistances counting necromancy, so some orcs will get rF++ and some orcs will not get rPois. The cap is a must because we don't want you running around with a band of warlords with perfect resistances and we certainly don't want the player farming kills for more resistance blessings. They might do that anyways, actually, so the resistances should max out pretty quickly so the player doesn't feel obliged to spend much time bringing new recruits up to speed (I'm thinking, like, it's guaranteed to happen every time they get the blessing effect if they have free slots, on top of the existing effects). We might even give one or two to joining knights/warlords/high priests/sorcerers/uniques as they join–by that point a halo of light blessing you just for swearing allegiance to the messiah sounds about right. — Brickman 2010-12-30 17:29
My orc warlords did a pretty fine job of clearing Zot:5 in my last HOPr game (with very little help from me), I don't think they really need to be much stronger at all - I think two of them died in the process but I ascended with three warlords, two knights and a high priest still alive and kicking. I don't think it's possible to see what they had equipped from the log, unfortunately - but essentially it was plate mails, crossbows and a selection of great big weapons (which all get blessed by Beogh over time). With multiple resistances they probably would've taken out the orbs of fire and ancient liches with even less difficulty. Beogh will cure poisoned followers with his blessings already, so even threats like green draconian poison clouds can be handled, with care (I even used my wands of healing to heal allies a few times, requiring this occasionally seems like a good thing). Perhaps at most he could add a single resistance ego to an orc's worn armour as a possible but unlikely blessing, I think that would be plenty. — marvinpa 2010-12-30 18:32
I didn't have nearly as much luck when I went into Zot with my orc army (2 tries, 0 - 2 though I did get the Orb myself 2nd try). Orbs of fire can shoot 132 pt damage fireball and used to have speed 20. One of my groups got wiped out on Zot: 2 (bad management on my part - they got stuck in a corridor and sandwiched by storm dragons/dracs) and another died on Zot 5 when 3 OoF and an electric golem showed up and it took about 3 fireballs to kill most of the group while I was trying to teleport/recall. I think 4 something resists would be overkill, but 1 resist + Orcs actually using artifacts and dragon armours would be a big improvement. — RangerC 2010-12-30 19:30
Blessings would work too, but all orcs getting the same resistances as yours is *much* easier on the interface. No juggling of orcs best-adapted to survive the branch of your choice. We certainly won't let Beogh add resistances to equipment (unless said properties fade once it's dropped) because that would encourage equipment farming, then killing followers for their now upgraded equipment. If we do blessings, we should start out small with a single bonus resistance for everyone follower. — jpeg 2010-12-30 20:12
As stated before, one of the biggest issues for Beogh worshipers is the prospect of losing a good, well-developed follower and being forced to replace him with a squishy new recruit, fresh from the orcish mines. In particular, relying on followers makes the priest of Beogh play like a summoner, although summoners don't have to ever care about the long-term welfare of their thralls. Rather, the fun of Beogh is that you get permanent followers and get to watch them progress, equip them with secondhand gear, and form an attachment to them. Put simply, it sucks to watch your orcish friends die (especially in those occasions where there's nothing you could have done to save them) and it really sucks to tediously train new orcs to take their place.
Sure, but this bonding is part of the deal: for summoners, allies are dispensable. For Beoghites, they're not. — dpeg 2010-10-07 21:38
Proposal: an ally resurrection ability that would allow priests of Beogh to revive their fallen named allies. After all, what messiah can't bring back the dead? Using this ability over the corpse of a fallen named follower would cause Beogh to reclaim their corpse and all their equipement (”<name>'s corpse vanishes in a gout of green flame!”). A few hundred turns later your old ally catches up to you, having traveled from his place of rebirth in the orcish mines. The ability would have to carry a hefty piety cost, along with perhaps some other sort of sacrifice (a tithe of gold, perhaps). However, the important thing is that you won't ever be forced to re-train a new apostle (which is a great moniker for named orcish followers) from scratch. To reiterate: losing your followers may suck, but training new followers to adequacy is heinous, and a priest of Beogh without meaningful followers may as well not even be worshiping Beogh at all. — Wensleydale 2010-10-07 09:35
Good idea, but maybe a little too powerful. I suggest the fallen orc also loses 1d3 levels. Maybe the gear stays on the ground and you have to pick it up and carry to give it back when the orc comes back. Also, there are ways of losing orcs other than dying. I've lost a few to zot traps that turned them hostile or polymorphed them. Beogh should protect them from such a fate (or at least a chance). — galehar 2010-10-07 10:40
I think an ability is too much. Do you really want to weigh a hefty piety cost against the chore of training another lowly orc to a knight? If the piety cost is low, resurrection is a no-brainer, if it is too high, nobody will use and (this is the important point) it seems very hard to me to get right. A system that's very robust is increasing costs but it doesn't really help here. I don't think that we want to turn Beogh orcs into undead, who keep not-dying and not-dying and …
Instead, I suggest that resurrections are miracles, by Beogh endless clemency. E.g. sometimes (can be quite rare) when you pray over the corpse of an apostle, he will spring to life again.
You have a point in that training orcs from scratch is almost impossible in the later game (plain orcs only have HD 1, after all) but this wiki has a number of ideas how to address that by now (xp sharing, limiting the number of orcs you have with you). — dpeg 2010-10-07 21:38
True, I feel like XP sharing is a more elegant solution (although I'm not sure that proposal was here when I initially wrote this section :P). Eradicating the XP/2 cost inherent to summoners would further differentiate worshipers of Beogh, but since much (if not most) of that XP would be funneled away to your followers, it's not overpowered while actually feeling better than playing a summoner, since you're investing a portion of your experience rather than simply losing a portion (in sum, even if it's functionally equivalent to XP/2, it feels much better). It would still leave the survivability of your new orcs a tad precarious, though, and I really like the idea of Beogh having a chance to raise your named followers if you pray over their corpses (this is a really fun idea, because all Beoghites should be sacrificing the corpses of their comrades anyway, so discovery of the power should naturally occur and wouldn't require any spoilers and would be one of those “holy crap, did I just do that?” moments… really A+ stuff). I propose that the likelihood of Beogh raising one of your followers in this way is inversely proportional to how many named apostles are currently in your band: if just one of your apostles dies, it's not a big deal to replace him since you'll have 11 other guys helping out, so Beogh won't raise your ally. On the other hand, if all of your apostles are wiped out for whatever reason, Beogh should revive more than a few of them (if only to help shield the new recruits while you're funneling your XP into them). I think we've got a really solid and exciting idea here. — Wensleydale 2010-10-08 00:28
Brilliant idea, especially as you pointed out, the fact that it would just be something you weren't expecting and couldn't rely on. If this also scaled slightly with how many apostles you had with you then it would make it feel 'fairer' and also, as pointed out earlier, not having strong orc followers completely defeats the point of worshipping Beogh. — Bim 2011-07-08 14:28
I like galehar's proposal, losing a bit of combat ability could be the “additional sacrifice” I was alluding to, and would be infinitely preferable to the usual step down from an orc warlord to an orc peon. I wouldn't like having to lug around my fallen orc's equipment, but I can see how it would solve some interface issues (like if two of your followers died in the same square), although I think I'd still prefer Beogh to sort all that out for me, even if my revived followers come back wearing shuffled sets of equipment. — Wensleydale 2010-10-07 10:43
Beogh's ally conversion seems to be too high. With a little bit of micromanagement to make sure my Orc allies get properly equipped, I can build some extremely powerful armies that sit around in the dungeon until I want them. I'm playing a game right now, and it's stupidly easy with an Orc Warlord, a couple of Orc Knights, some Priests, Wizards, Warriors, etc., all decked out with good armor, weapons, and ranged weapons. I expect to start losing them when I get to the tougher branches in the Lair, but in the main dungeon, it's just ridiculous. I tried to ditch the army to see how well I could do by myself for a little while, and Beogh even teleported in an army for me at one point. Either the ally conversion rate is too high, or there should be other penalties for keeping a very large army around - perhaps by having orcish allies start to feud with each other after spending too much time without killing anything. Or both. — tromboneandrew 2010-12-29 17:27
Lower-level orcs die very quickly against anything notable. How deep in the dungeon are you? It's a given that you get a ton of orcs from the mines, but they certainly don't last long. — OG17 2010-12-30 11:31
One of the least appreciated bonuses of Beogh is his support for orcish gear. Granted, it's not hard at all to find an orcish weapon that your character is skilled with with decent bonuses or branding by the mines. Similarly, if you wear/identify enough orcish plate mails (Or whichever armour level you're most comfortable with) you're bound to find one with an ego eventually. But for the most part, the rarity of orcish gloves, boots, helmets, shields, and cloaks makes this aspect of his bonus relatively unusable. Furthermore, most players would gladly give up the relatively minor bonus they get from orcish gloves, boots, helmets, shields, and cloaks for any type of ego item or artifact, so these bonuses really don't see the light of day.
Thus, gameplay-wise, the plan is to
My proposal is to have Beogh give gifts, using the same timer he has for reinforcements (although slowed, for balance). Gifts would only be given if you have orcs on the level- otherwise, Beogh would grant reinforcements like he does now. The gifts would be
It's especially important to notice that none of these gifts are ever going to be artifacts. All will be relatively minorly enchanted, and are generally worse than similar equipment given by Okawaru. The idea for weapons and armours is that, even if your orc cannot use them (which would most likely be the case), the group that you're traveling with could most likely use them, cutting down on the worry of keeping your followers well-equipped.
Another idea to help provide further incentive towards orcish gear over artifacts or other ego items would be to change the conversion chances. This would be similar to how Ashenzari currently works, only for orcish gear rather than cursed gear. First, drop the current base chance of converting an orc by a somewhat large amount (which we'll call 4X). Then, if you're wielding an orcish weapon when the call to convert is checked, increase the chances of conversion by 1X. If you're wearing orcish body armour, increase it by a further 1X. Then, each item of orcish other-slot armor (including shields) increases the conversion chance by a further X/2. This way, an intimidatingly well-dressed orc in fully orcish gear is more easily recognized as the Orc Messiah, while an artifact-wielding, elven-glove wearing, three-star piety Beogh worshiper will have a tougher time.
I don't know of any others, but I think there should be a particular restriction on converting Saint Roka's followers. It was funny to have them all turn on them and kill him as soon as I came into sigh, but as far as good game-play goes, it did not at all feel right. I mean, if Saint Roka can't convert *my* followers. Why should I be able to just convert his, his followers already are following him, they are not like all the other orcs.
I personally feel that orcs generated with Saint Roka should not be able to be converted until after he is killed or converted himself. They should shout “I fight for Saint Roka” , or “I will never leave you Saint Roka”. Just like they do to you.
— JamezQ 2011-06-28 09:39
That's a very good point, and I do agree. However, seeing how it is rather neat when they do turn their back on him, there could be a small chance of allowing them to convert anyway. Technically, this would probably involve the leader flag (which already exists) and a check when converting a leader to also convert the lower ranks that previously failed the conversion check. A conversion check can result in an automatic fail if the 'attempted conversion' flag is set at monster creation. To be more specific: if Saint Roka is generated, all his followers get a high chance (say, 85%) of getting the 'attempted conversion' flag, but St. Roka himself doesn't. Once you meet his band, one or two of his followers may turn traitor but are likely to get killed by the others right away. If you manage to convert Roka (on sight, or after a beat-down), all his followers get a second chance at conversion (respecting HD, as usually) despite the 'attempted conversion' flag.
The leader-minion effect could also be extended to other means of changing monsters' attitudes, such as enslavement, fear, etc. Basically, give lower-ranking monsters an extra roll of the dice.
— jpeg 2011-08-21 01:16
Right now, all corpse sacrifices for Beogh do is give a little piety. As you can't do anything else with those corpses, it's totally a no-brainer and, outside of flavor, not very interesting. Rather than just throwing out sacrifices, let's make Consecration more interesting. A lot more interesting.
For starters, Beogh now only accepts sacrifices of allied Orc corpses. Additionally, all allied Orcs have a 100% chance to drop a corpse (lest they fall into lava, of corse). Beogh's sacrifice via praying is removed and instead the player is given an ability, preferably with little to no cost, named Consecration. When used, the player and all of their Orcish allies stop and take a moment to honor their fallen comrades. All allied orc corpses in LOS (and possibly follower LOS) are sacrificed after a few turns. The exact length of time could perhaps be dependent on the number of corpses sacrificed. Additionally, if anyone is attacked, player or follower, the ritual is interrupted. If the ritual is successful, Beogh may grant some piety but, more importantly, will grant blessings on allies present at the ritual and/or on the player. The stronger and more blessed the Consecrated orcs were, the more likely and more powerful Beogh's blessings will be. A couple of regular Orcs shouldn't amount to much, but three Warlords and a High Priest should be highly likely to give something decent.
For followers, Beogh can grant his usual blessings, such as upgrading Orcs to Orc Warriors. However, at best, the player should be able to break even with what they lost (aka lose two Warlords, get two more). The majority of the time, they should be more or less worse off (same situation, but get two Knights instead) so to prevent intentional sacrificing. Beogh could also grant long lasting but temporary buffs, perhaps instead of permanent enchantments, as well. Additionally, Beogh should decide what to give before checking to see what's eligible to receive it. If Beogh wants to upgrade some Orcs to Warriors and you ditched them all in order to try to scum getting more Warlords, you instead get nothing. This way, the player won't be encouraged to try to micromanage followers in order to manipulate blessings. It'd be advantageous to just keep the survivors of your normal following with you instead.
For the player, nothing permanent. Instead, Beogh will grant durable, long lasting buffs that are, ultimately, temporary. The effects of Might, Agility, a pip of resistance, piety cost removal on Smite, a boost to skills, and others are some ideas of what the player could be given. They should be good and useful, with better Orcs getting killed resulting in stronger and/or longer lasting buffs. However, as they're all temporarily while you're losing permanent allies to get these, and you'd need to lose your good allies to get the good buffs, the player wouldn't want to sacrifice followers for buffs.
There's probably some rough points and things I haven't considered, but this should make Beogh sacrificing, not to mention Beogh on a whole, more interesting. — TwilightPhoenix 2012-02-02 23:35
Unless it gets a fairly steep cost attached, this would be just as much a no-brainer as the current consecration, and actually more of a hassle. — minmay 2012-02-03 03:47
Ideally, to get a shot at the good stuff, you'd have to lose your good allies, hence that's where the cost would be. Lose a few regular Orcs, maybe all you get is a little bit of piety. If you want really awesome blessings, you'd have to lose your good stuff. Mechanically, it's best to think of it as one of those abilities you don't want to ever have to use. The actual use of this ability will likely be a no brainer, just like virtually all other sacrificing and most god conducts. Though, since you can get more than just small amount of piety, there may be occasions where you're forced to choose between letting your dead allies rot or trying to kill/chase off whatever killed them so you can still get the blessings, unlike now where just leaving the bodies is nine times out of ten clearly the superior decision. — TwilightPhoenix 2012-02-04 00:37
Beogh's “usual blessing” is to enhance attack/defense power of an orc, not to upgrade them; upgrading is a standard step achieved through battle experience. You can see regular orcs upgrade to warriors if they kill enough, even without worshiping Beogh. Same for gnolls. — XuaXua 2012-02-03 17:17
Perhaps Beogh could just suffuse allies with XP then, with a certain maximum threshold based on the value of the sacrifice to prevent the “Gain a Knight for losing a regular Orc” situation? — TwilightPhoenix 2012-02-04 00:37
I purpose a new ability. It allowes you to share hp with one of your follower. Mechanic should be similar with guardian spirit amulet, but drain you hp when follower is hitted. And his hp when you is hitted. This hp-connection cannot be interrupted before time passes. This ability will make a strong bond between player and orcs and give a lot of tactical oportunities. Also it will bring new playstyle. Certanly it must have piety price, but not really great. And will be accessible around four stars.
The only ability dependent on invocations seems to be smiting at the moment, which makes invocation skill rather useless for beoghites. Yet HOPr start with pretty high invocations. How about making smiting just depend on piety instead and thus Beogh not using invocations at all? HOPr could start with a couple additional levels of fighting skill. — doublep 2012-06-10 00:18