The Tavern

Development wiki editing completed.

There is a cleanup todo list on the wiki.

List of changes performed
- Main
- DCSS namespace main
- Mantis main
- Development and coding section here
Brainstorm
- Backgrounds (completely revised - REQUEST FEEDBACK)
- Combat
- Gods & Religion (completely revised - REQUEST FEEDBACK)
- Effects (should this content be redistributed elsewhere?)
- Game Variations
- Platform Porting - moved under Coding / Internal
- Skills & Experience (not enough topics here to matter for any reorg other than clearer renaming)
- Species (completely revised - REQUEST FEEDBACK)
- Magic & Spells (completely revised - REQUEST FEEDBACK)
- Tiles (general cleanup)
- Miscellaneous - EMPTIED (most into Gameplay)
- Mutations / Attributes category created and filled
- Monsters (restructure like gods/backgrounds/species)
- Dungeon Features and Vaults (combined, with Shops as well, to Dungeon Features and reorganized)
- User Interface (formerly Interface)
- Internal Systems & Coding (formerly Internal)
- Items & Equipment (restructure like gods/backgrounds/species)
Admin
- Created separate admin namespace for press / blog / tournament / devteam list (moved out from help)
Tag
- added tag ability
- created global implementables list for all implementables and related pages

======================================

ORIGINAL POST:

Rather than this sub-page being the start page, I focused on this main page, which is actually the natural start page of the wiki instead.

... let the hating commence.

EDIT ON ORIGINAL POST

This sub-page is back to being the primary page for DCSS, while
this main page / natural start is the primary page of the wiki itself and notes child projects

40+ views, 3 thanks and no negative comments so far.

This makes me suspect I should continue my crusade against disorganization.

Moved some crap around and added context and consistency, mostly related to species and backgrounds. Enough for tonight, but I find this a good place to track my activity.

I expect to revisit this thread tomorrow and find that dpeg has yelled at me.

I like the new welcome page. The dev wiki can certainly use some clean-up and reorganisation, thanks for doing it!

XuaXua wrote:I expect to revisit this thread tomorrow and find that dpeg has yelled at me.

But why?

Thanks for the help!

dpeg wrote:
XuaXua wrote:I expect to revisit this thread tomorrow and find that dpeg has yelled at me. :)

But why?

Thanks for the help!

He used an exclamation point! He's yelling! :mrgreen:

dpeg wrote:
XuaXua wrote:I expect to revisit this thread tomorrow and find that dpeg has yelled at me.

But why?

Thanks for the help!

Well... I'd be a bit leery of cleaning up "someone else's" wiki... so I'm really glad you approve.

And: nice, XuaXua! It's definitely an improvement.

njvack wrote:"someone else's" wiki

The whole point of a wiki is that it doesn't belong to anyone. Everything is historicized, so you shouldn't be afraid of losing anything when tyding up the wiki. The development wiki doesn't belong to the developers and they are all too busy coding to maintain it properly. So this work is greatly appreciated, thanks.

I did a bunch more changes. I am organizing, but not deleting anything except for irrelevant comments, etc.

I'm not crazy about the organization of the namespaces, but I do understand some items link from the outside (frex, the main page of develz and the wiki link from mantis, which really should go to the default namespace, not dcss:start), so I'm not about to start moving things around.

After reviewing the namespaces, I think a full namespace revision there should be various namespace sections as follows:

DEFAULT
- this is the default namespace that comprises all of dcss; the current dcss namespace is truly a redundant namespace.
ADMINISTRATION
- press, devteam, etc.
DEVELOPMENT CONCEPTS
- usability, how to code, git, etc.
MANTIS
- details on mantis
WIKI
-
NEW FEATURES (working title)
- new ideas broken down by subsections; subsections identical to Current Features (below); contains list of rejected concepts also
CURRENT FEATURES (working title)
- feedback on existing ideas that are in crawl broken into subsections; subsections identical to New Features (above)

Subsections of New/Current Concepts are based on the existing Namespaces page, but will be trimmed down or revised based on the existing current items. I haven't gotten around to revising those yet, so...

If devteam members give me the go-ahead, I'll start a massive restructuring, should take me at most 6 hours.

edit: I love that I learned how to rename pages.

Galehar, I understand where nvjack's coming from. I got that he understands what you mean before you posted your response. He put "someone else's" in quotes. I'm not a developer (here), but I do feel like I'm violating a bit. As long as I don't remove anything and just make sure things are tidy, then that makes it non-violative anyway, IMHO.

I think in the past there were "Brainstorming" and "Feedback" namespaces (for new and current features respectively) but they were merged into just the "Brainstorming" namespace. evktalo could probably give more details, but I think I'd agree that just having the one namespace there is better, and maybe helps prevent things from getting messy (for example, Demonspawn still have both a brainstorming-new-mutations and a feedback-existing-mutations page, except the brainstorming page also has built up feedback on ideas that got implemented, and it's all a bit confusing).

I'd suggest renaming the "Rejected Popular Concepts" back into "Things that won't be done". Not all of the items on this list are that popular, but they're all things that aren't going to happen any time soon. It's a "won't do list", nothing more.

evilmike wrote:I'd suggest renaming the "Rejected Popular Concepts" back into "Things that won't be done". Not all of the items on this list are that popular, but they're all things that aren't going to happen any time soon. It's a "won't do list", nothing more.

I made a compromise.

QUESTION: Does anyone know how to move a page to a different namespace without losing all the history? I know how to rename pages, but that doesn't move them.

I'm not 100% certain history is truly necessary for older pages when I move them, but I consider that data loss and I want to minimize it.

Yeah... I'm at the point where I really need to move pages to different namespaces.

Should I just copy and paste and delete (history loss) or is there a hidden move command or do I need higher permissions for that?

I would love to combine "Vaults" and "Dungeon Features". Maybe rename "Vaults" to "Portals" since that's what is in there.

XuaXua wrote:Yeah... I'm at the point where I really need to move pages to different namespaces.

Should I just copy and paste and delete (history loss) or is there a hidden move command or do I need higher permissions for that?

I would love to combine "Vaults" and "Dungeon Features". Maybe rename "Vaults" to "Portals" since that's what is in there.

If you want to do something that involves losing the page's history, I'd suggest waiting on it. I don't know of a good way to do it, but there's probably a better way than "delete the page and paste it somewhere else".

evilmike wrote:
XuaXua wrote:Yeah... I'm at the point where I really need to move pages to different namespaces.

Should I just copy and paste and delete (history loss) or is there a hidden move command or do I need higher permissions for that?

I would love to combine "Vaults" and "Dungeon Features". Maybe rename "Vaults" to "Portals" since that's what is in there.

If you want to do something that involves losing the page's history, I'd suggest waiting on it. I don't know of a good way to do it, but there's probably a better way than "delete the page and paste it somewhere else".

I'm at a stopping point for now, then. It's really all renaming a bunch and moving at this point. Lots of stuff that should be in Misc, some that should be moved out, a couple new namespaces, etc.

XuaXua: Could you give one precise example of a renaming that should take place? (Please give full current and full desired links.)

22:16 < dpeg_> !tell Napkin There is someone helping with the dev wiki. Is there a way to rename spaces without losing history?
(viewtopic.php?f=8&t=3405)
23:36 <+Napkin> hmm, not sure, dpeg
23:37 <+Napkin> the rename plugin doesn't seem to
23:37 <+Napkin> maybe if i do it manually
23:37 <+Napkin> maybe !tell me which ones?
23:37 <+Napkin> i'll have a look then

XuaXua wrote:
evilmike wrote:
XuaXua wrote:Yeah... I'm at the point where I really need to move pages to different namespaces.

Should I just copy and paste and delete (history loss) or is there a hidden move command or do I need higher permissions for that?

I would love to combine "Vaults" and "Dungeon Features". Maybe rename "Vaults" to "Portals" since that's what is in there.

If you want to do something that involves losing the page's history, I'd suggest waiting on it. I don't know of a good way to do it, but there's probably a better way than "delete the page and paste it somewhere else".

I'm at a stopping point for now, then. It's really all renaming a bunch and moving at this point. Lots of stuff that should be in Misc, some that should be moved out, a couple new namespaces, etc.

At the bottom of the page, there is an admin button. If there isn't, then you're lacking the appropriate authorization. Ask and we'll give them.
On the admin page, there is a "Page/Namespace Move/Rename..." link, under the "additional plugins" section. I did some moving and reorganizing a while back. It's cumbersome but it works. The only thing you can't do from the web interface is remove empty folders. They clutter the namespace and can only be removed manually by Napkin.

If I have to list every move, that's going to be painful.

I am not actually certain how valuable history is on a pages older than a month since
1) generally there is some indicator of ownership on the page itself
2) many changes to a page are not history-worthy.

If he wants to try it out, I'm of the mind that the Vaults section should be a subset of Dungeon Features

VAULTS NAMESPACE
https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php? ... ault:start
should be moved to
DUNGEON FEATURES NAMESPACE
https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php? ... geon:start
AS
DUNGEON FEATURES VAULTS NAMESPACE
https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php? ... ults:start

An easier move might be:
SECRET FEATURES, which isn't a VAULT but is in VAULTS namespace
https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php? ... lt:secrets
moved to
DUNGEON FEATURES NAMESPACE as SECRETS
https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php? ... on:secrets

MEANWHILE, I'll be moving most of
:start (aka MAIN)
to
dcss:start (aka DCSS)
manually today.

I made a mistake. MAIN is an explanation of the wiki and for listing various projects, which includes (and only includes at this time), but is not exclusive to, the Mantis Tracker and DCSS.

edit: Galehar - me no havey admin.

XuaXua wrote:MEANWHILE, I'll be moving most of
:start (aka MAIN)
to
dcss:start (aka DCSS)
manually today.

I made a mistake. MAIN is an explanation of the wiki and for listing various projects, which includes (and only includes at this time), but is not exclusive to, the Mantis Tracker and DCSS.

This has been completed; there is some redundancy, but I believe it to be acceptable.

XuaXua wrote:edit: Galehar - me no havey admin.

You do now. Try again.

galehar wrote:
XuaXua wrote:edit: Galehar - me no havey admin.

You do now. Try again.

MUAH HA HA HA HA HA!

XuaXua wrote:
galehar wrote:
XuaXua wrote:edit: Galehar - me no havey admin.

You do now. Try again.

MUAH HA HA HA HA HA!

Galehar, you've doomed us all...

EDIT Moved current edit status to OP.

Can anyone tell me what the "Special Wiki Pages" are on DokuWiki?

For example, there are various pages on other wikis which can list the "unlinked" pages (pages that are being linked to that don't exist), among other things.

Thanks!

Having a little problem with the following two pages:

Interface Ideas
Interface Implementables

They appear to be
1) redundant to many other things on the wiki
2) contain things that have nothing to do with the interface topic
3) redundant to each other
4) completely overrun with disparate ideas and totally out of hand

I think these pages bece the defacto dumping grounds for all development approvals when devs seemed to throw their hands up in despair with the lack of wiki organization. Before I take a crack at them, I want one or two devs to come in and

1) explain this
2) suggest solutions for clean up

As the headers of the pages indicate (if you read both): Interface ideas is the page to collect ideas. Anyone can add ideas. In a game like Crawl with its baroque interface, many, many interface proposals will pile up. I thought that one place to collect them is better than many places. Opinions may differ on this one but we had very many interface suggestions back on Sourceforge and it was a pain to manage. For example, the same idea would be filed over and over. With the current system, we usually get a comment to an existing idea.
Of the huge set of proposed ideas, the interface implementables collects those which are considered to be accepted (by the devteam). The principle should be that such ideas move from one page to the other, once agreed upon. It is very hard to get this flow correctly, but I have no idea how to improve the process.

Summary: interface ideas will inevitably pile up in large numbers. Many of those will just sit there and rot. However, not letting them sit somewhere would mean that we get the very same ideas again and again.

I don't know if the dokuwiki allows it, but if you could apply limited protection to the "implementables", and then grant that to the devteam editors, that would help enforce the flow.

I added page Tagging (categorizing) support. I'm going to create an Implementables page for each section and tag them similarly so they can be grouped in an Implementable Tag page for easy reference by developers.

ATTENTION DEVELOPERS

The Global Implementables List has been created.

"Someone Else's Wiki" has been edited to my satisfaction. PLEASE PROVIDE FEEDBACK BEYOND "THANKS" and "GOOD JEORB"!!!!!

As in, I need to know what I screwed up while I'm still interested in fixing it.

I think the only thing left is to set-up a page of wiki policies, like

- if you implemented something, move it off the page to an implemented category to reduce clutter, or label it with strikeout tag or something
and
- if you're creating a new page that might have a lot of different ideas in it, suffix the name with (Bulk)
and
- always retitle pages with a six = header and capitalize the first letter of each word; be descriptive in titling
etc.

GOOD JEORB!!!!!

Seriously, though -- the reorg and formatting are lovely.

The biggest trouble with the wiki is that there's a lot of... history... in lots of places. For example:

https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php? ... od:makhleb

discusses the pros and cons of removing Makhleb as a starting god for Chaos Knights, and removing MP-for-kills. It's really hard to know what ideas have been rejected by the dev team, which are planned for implementation, what's still under discussion, and what should be removed.

I feel like that page probably wants some cleaning. But again, as a non-dev, I'd worry about angering people if I just cleaned the whole CK and MP-for-kills parts of the page out. Maybe the history of that discussion is important...?

We hold the exact same thoughts regarding page cleanup, which is why I prefer wikis that have a separate page for discussion.

I am mostly curious what Napkin, evktalo and Eronarn (the top editors of said wiki, apparently) want revised.

Thank you for the cleanup efforts. My only criticism (and this is a fairly minor one) is that while the cleanup is going on, it's quite hard to see new edits to the wiki that aren't cleanup related when viewing recent changes.

I suggest that in the future, if you edit a page and don't add new content (and are just moving it or tidying it up) you put "wiki cleanup" in the edit reasons.

Wasn't there a page full of suggestions for new non-unique monsters? The closest I could find was this: https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:monster:creatures:start, but it's empty.

Tiber wrote:Wasn't there a page full of suggestions for new non-unique monsters? The closest I could find was this: https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:monster:creatures:start, but it's empty.

If stuff shows up on the sitemap (button on bottom right) I probably didn't edit in an alphaindex.

That was the exact issue. Fixed simply. Change the history of that page to see the fix and please continue to point out any additional issues.

Great job you are doing there! Really appreciated :-)

If you'd like to move pages and name-spaces with their history or need help deleting empty name-spaces, please ping me in IRC.

Cheers!

Napkin wrote:Great job you are doing there! Really appreciated

If you'd like to move pages and name-spaces with their history or need help deleting empty name-spaces, please ping me in IRC.

Cheers!

Thanks, Napkin. With the admin status, I have had no problem doing this on my own.

I'm 99.9% complete. I think the last things to really "do" (and anyone can pick these tasks up) are:

1) break down / clean up any "bulk" pages for readability.

2) read through the dumping ground for all ideas, which is actually just supposed to be the User Interface idea page and pull out any that are not considered "UI" (any that affect gameplay) and throw them under the correct categories.

3) Go to the Ally Management page, which is under User Interface, and sort it by Interface- and Gameplay- affecting requests and divide them up appropriately into the appropriate categories and associate the pages.

evilmike wrote:Thank you for the cleanup efforts. My only criticism (and this is a fairly minor one) is that while the cleanup is going on, it's quite hard to see new edits to the wiki that aren't cleanup related when viewing recent changes.

I suggest that in the future, if you edit a page and don't add new content (and are just moving it or tidying it up) you put "wiki cleanup" in the edit reasons.

So many changes, I got a little lax with doing it. Going forward, there won't be any more massive alterations (there isn't a need for it at this time) like we just went through, so I don't expect anything else to get lost in the poor noise-to-signal ratio.

Maybe it's just my browser on this particular computer, but it looks like the general formatting of the wiki is missing.

As a note, whoever is in charge might want to make a blog post about the cleaned up Dev wiki, as (in my opinion) it should be much easier to use now for all sorts of purposes. I am not asking for any public thanks; my request is for the sake of those who might have visited the wiki one time and balked at any semblance of inaccessibility, so that they might visit again and reconsider. Said visitors might not read this forum.

Keep in mind, there is a very minor todo list (in the OP of this thread), but in the grand scheme of things, the wiki reorganization of late 2011 has been completed.

edit: More details in the appropriate section of the wiki.

Blogged!

I don't have the time to check the changes more thoroughly, but what I've seen looks like a huge improvement (global implementables list - wow!). Great jeorb and many thanks!

--Eino

The Tavern

Developer Wiki Cleanup... COMPLETED!

Developer Wiki Cleanup... COMPLETED!

Re: So... I did a little cleanup of the Developer Wiki

Re: So... I did a little cleanup of the Developer Wiki

Re: So... I did a little cleanup of the Developer Wiki

Re: So... I did a little cleanup of the Developer Wiki

Re: So... I did a little cleanup of the Developer Wiki

Re: So... I did a little cleanup of the Developer Wiki

Re: So... I did a little cleanup of the Developer Wiki

Re: Developer Wiki Cleanup - Feedback requested!

Re: Developer Wiki Cleanup - Feedback requested!

Re: Developer Wiki Cleanup - Feedback requested!

Re: Developer Wiki Cleanup - Feedback requested!

Re: Developer Wiki Cleanup - Feedback requested!

Re: Developer Wiki Cleanup - Feedback requested!

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Re: Developer Wiki Cleanup - Feedback requested!

Re: Developer Wiki Cleanup - Feedback requested!

Re: Developer Wiki Cleanup - Feedback requested!

Re: Developer Wiki Cleanup - Feedback requested!

Re: Developer Wiki Cleanup - Feedback requested!

Re: Developer Wiki Cleanup - Feedback requested!

Re: Developer Wiki Cleanup - Feedback requested!

Re: Developer Wiki Cleanup - Feedback requested!

Re: Developer Wiki Cleanup - Feedback requested!

Re: Developer Wiki Cleanup - Feedback requested!

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Re: Developer Wiki Cleanup... COMPLETED! Feedback required!

Re: Developer Wiki Cleanup... COMPLETED! You *MUST* feedbac

Re: Developer Wiki Cleanup... COMPLETED! You *MUST* feedbac

Re: Developer Wiki Cleanup... COMPLETED!

Re: Developer Wiki Cleanup... COMPLETED!

Re: Developer Wiki Cleanup... COMPLETED!

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Re: Developer Wiki Cleanup... COMPLETED!

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Re: Developer Wiki Cleanup... COMPLETED! You MUST feedbac

Re: Developer Wiki Cleanup... COMPLETED! You MUST feedbac