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Fighting reform
Appart from attack speed, there's not many formulae yet. The page just define the guidelines, we'll dive into numbers later.
Although the central place for design discussion is ##crawl-dev on freenode, some may find it helpful to discuss requests and suggestions here first.
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minmay wrote:Weapons reaching minimum delay at 27 skill sounds fine but note that it will make every weapon except two for each class (the biggest one-hander and the biggest two-hander) pretty much redundant.
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crate wrote:I also don't like the strength requirement thing, since it changes str from being worthless except for one magic number to being worthless except for two magic numbers. This doesn't seem to fix anything.
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crate wrote:it makes all weapons' damage-per-aut increase linearly with skill.
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KoboldLord wrote:If all weapon classes trigger their special properties while tabbing but not when arrow keying, and all weapon classes can be evoked to trigger their special properties when tab is not advised, then the newbie learning requirement is reduced to one additional command over the current system, rather than one completely different set of commands for every weapon class. It may also be worth moving the key to evoke the special property of your weapon from the evoke submenu to a key of its own, in order to minimize required keystrokes for what are presumably going to be common functions. Certainly I would appreciate being able to reach with polearms without a submenu to select the letter of my wielded weapon!
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Here's what I don't like about the proposed weapon speed thing: it makes all weapons' damage-per-aut increase linearly with skill. I know this is the idea but I think it is a bad idea.
If we ignore accuracy effects, then the same weapon will deal the most damage-per-aut at any skill in the proposed system. Assuming that in the new formula an exec axe outdamages a hand axe at skill 27, it will also outdamage the hand axe at skill 0 (again accuracy concerns). With the current system a demon blade deals significantly more damage per aut than a triple sword at skill level 14 against most enemies ... but at skill 24, the triple sword is better. That won't happen if all weapons increase linearly with skill.
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minmay wrote:It's fine that higher skill levels have a greater impact on your damage output than lower skill levels - they cost much more!
minmay wrote:Weapons reaching minimum delay at 27 skill sounds fine but note that it will make every weapon except two for each class (the biggest one-hander and the biggest two-hander) pretty much redundant.
crate wrote:Assuming that in the new formula an exec axe outdamages a hand axe at skill 27, it will also outdamage the hand axe at skill 0 (again accuracy concerns).
dtsund wrote:Rather than give every weapon type its own special property, one straightforward thing you could do would be make one of the weapon types statistically better than the rest. For instance, Maces & Flails could just have better numbers than the corresponding Long Blades and Axes; the choice would be whether the armor piercing or cleaving would outweigh the statistical disadvantage.
dpeg wrote:Axe cleaving: I would suggest to at least start with copying Brogue's model.
dpeg wrote:In any case, the armour piercing bit should belong to clubs, not swords, like minmay etc. said.
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galehar wrote:dpeg wrote:Axe cleaving: I would suggest to at least start with copying Brogue's model.
Maybe. On the other hand, if you can attack no more than 3 targets, then you have to choose which one if there's more.
dpeg wrote:In any case, the armour piercing bit should belong to clubs, not swords, like minmay etc. said.
Huh, minmay hasn't said that, nor anyone else. And why? I like armour piercing for long blades. It's not armour crushing, we're not destroying the monster's armour, we're bypassing it. It's a dex based effect, so stabbers have an interesting upgrade path. I also like to have one weapon class with no special effect, and I think M&F is the most appropriate for that.
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galehar wrote:crate wrote:Assuming that in the new formula an exec axe outdamages a hand axe at skill 27, it will also outdamage the hand axe at skill 0 (again accuracy concerns).
Why? I'm not changing any delay at skill 0. The hand axe will still be much faster than the exec axe. Actually, it will stay faster at every skill level, but the delay difference will diminish. There will still be a point at which the higher damage will compensate the lower speed, and the bigger weapon will outdamage the smaller one past a certain skill level.
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evilmike wrote:If the game is going to have weapons named after real-life ones, and you're going to have an "armour penetrating" effect, the only weapons it makes sense to give this effect to are bludgeoning ones. I don't think you can make an argument that gameplay trumps realism here. If an effect like this is desired, there are a whole bunch of different weapon classes you can choose... it's pretty arbitrary. So you might as well choose the one that makes intuitive sense.
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evilmike wrote:galehar wrote:Maybe. On the other hand, if you can attack no more than 3 targets, then you have to choose which one if there's more.
Brogue cleaving hits every enemy adjacent to you, not just 3.I know, I mean it removes the choice of the target. But maybe it's simpler. How about a compromise, you select a target and it attacks all the ones that are adjacent to you and the target? So up to 5. Even more reason not to hang in corridors since you can't attack both ways.evilmike wrote:If the game is going to have weapons named after real-life ones, and you're going to have an "armour penetrating" effect, the only weapons it makes sense to give this effect to are bludgeoning ones. I don't think you can make an argument that gameplay trumps realism here.
Oh good point, I changed it.crate wrote:At 0 skill, the best weapons for damage-per-turn are actually already the biggest weapons.
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danharaj wrote:No thank you to melee combat going from a paragraph of explanation to three pages.
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minmay wrote:You are still making new "magic numbers" to fix a system that was created entirely for the purpose of getting rid of existing "magic numbers."
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galehar wrote:((weighted_attributes * weapon_skill) / base_damage^2) * (weapon_skill + fighting_skill)
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galehar wrote:minmay wrote:You are still making new "magic numbers" to fix a system that was created entirely for the purpose of getting rid of existing "magic numbers."
True, let's change the accuracy formula directly. Currently, it's 15 + attribute_bonus + weapon_skill + fighting_skill + misc_bonus. How about something like:
((weighted_attributes * weapon_skill) / base_damage^2) * (weapon_skill + fighting_skill).
Maybe with a stepdown, so small weapons don't get an insane bonus. Also, while we're at it, shouldn't fighting contribution be less than weapon skill? I'd say half.
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crate wrote:Or is it the goal to make sure no one really understands melee damage?
CommanderC wrote:As you have said, using base_damage^2 can be a problem. The differences between weapons can easily be too large. I suggest replacing base_damage^2 with (1+base_damage/C).
For example:
temp = (1 + weighted_attributes/D)*(weapon_skill + fighting_skill/2)/(1 + base_damage/C)
accuracy = 40 * log(1 + temp/40) + misc_bonus
XuaXua wrote:Rather than a flat stepdown.
Jeremiah wrote:If the Stabbing skill is removed, would training Short Blades give stabbing bonuses with other weapon types and claws etc? Or would you just remove stabbing effects from everything else?
Jeremiah wrote:Also, what would you do about species that have good aptitude for Short Blades but bad for Stabbing, eg High Elves IIRC?
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galehar wrote:When choosing which attribute to raise, the choice should be something like "do I want bigger spells, bigger weapons or better evasion?".
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minmay wrote:galehar wrote:When choosing which attribute to raise, the choice should be something like "do I want bigger spells, bigger weapons or better evasion?". I'm simplifying of course, but you get the idea. That was the idea behind the strength requirement, but I agree that it's an ugly mechanism.
Wouldn't the easiest way to accomplish this just be to increase the effect of strength on melee damage? I don't see why we should have an entire new mechanic for this.
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crate wrote:I think the same is likely to happen if you make weapon damage actually depend on str: if you are using a small weapon you wouldn't bother raising str because it still wouldn't do much (just like you don't raise int for translocation spells) but if you are using an exec axe you probably would (just like you do raise int for high-level conjurations).
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crate wrote:I think the same is likely to happen if you make weapon damage actually depend on str
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