Barkeep
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Secret Doors
Whatever the trap reform looks like, is there a case I'm not seeing in favor of secret doors?
Although the central place for design discussion is ##crawl-dev on freenode, some may find it helpful to discuss requests and suggestions here first.
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Regnix wrote:Secret doors can be great, one vault in particular springs to mind, I found a secret door, which led to a room full of stone giants and other nasties. The monsters inside then started opening the other secret doors, which were pretty much the entire walls of the room. It was a good ambush.
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Zzz wrote:Also one time only secret door check with closets littering the levels is a decent buff to magic mapping, which is of marginal use save a few specific situations.
But I think magic maps don't show hidden areas right? That's inconsistent. Magic does anything. It's Magic.
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danr wrote:That said, the random doors don't really bug me.
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mageykun wrote:...what's with reviving year old threads?danr wrote:That said, the random doors don't really bug me.
Nothing bugs me more than walking by a lone 1 by 1 piece of wall orphaned in the lair, only to have it reveal itself as a secret door. A secret door to where? It's not a secret door- it's a column you can fold inside itself in such a way to make it disapear!
Random secret doors should only be placed in such a way that they open connectivity between areas. Secret doors in pillars, or that open to empty stone walls, are just silly.
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mageykun wrote:Random secret doors should only be placed in such a way that they open connectivity between areas. Secret doors in pillars, or that open to empty stone walls, are just silly.
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dd wrote:mageykun wrote:Random secret doors should only be placed in such a way that they open connectivity between areas. Secret doors in pillars, or that open to empty stone walls, are just silly.
I agree, and same goes for regular doors as well.
In fact, if you dig the walls from around a door, the door should just collapse because there's nothing for the door to be attached to.
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jejorda2 wrote:When we were discussing using a bow to shoot someone that is in an adjacent square, someone suggested that the squares are larger than an individual, and so there is enough space there to shoot. In the same way, the square marked as "door" can include the door frame and perhaps a bit of surrounding wall.
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mageykun wrote:...what's with reviving year old threads?
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JasonMel wrote: which is why I didn't link to the report or explain the necro. Furthermore, I figured that even without any cross-posting, the people there would see this discussion.
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jejorda2 wrote:dd wrote:In fact, if you dig the walls from around a door, the door should just collapse because there's nothing for the door to be attached to.
When we were discussing using a bow to shoot someone that is in an adjacent square, someone suggested that the squares are larger than an individual, and so there is enough space there to shoot. In the same way, the square marked as "door" can include the door frame and perhaps a bit of surrounding wall.
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KoboldLord wrote:I'm also morbidly curious now as to how Shatter is abusable for 'stealth tricks'. It's about as stealthy as the Kool-Aid Man smashing through the walls and running through the room
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bobross419 wrote:@galehar, are you saying that if the hidden property is 11 and your T&D is 10 that you will never find it?
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jejorda2 wrote:What if we assumed that doors are hidden with some kind of forced perspective illusions, such that standing in specific places makes it very difficult to see the door, but standing in other places in sight of the door makes it easy to detect?
In the diagram below, perhaps your effective T&D skill would be multiplied by the number in the spot where you are standing. The important thing is that it's easier to spot when you aren't looking at it dead-on. Another door might be easier to spot from some other angle or distance.
Maybe when your T&D is between 75% and 100% of the value needed to find the door, you get a message that something is funny about the area, but you only get it once per door and it happens 1d4 turns after you hit the check. Then you know to move around and look for the door or come back when your T&D is higher.
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galehar wrote:back on topic, I definitely agree that random secret doors serve no purpose and are sometimes problematic. I agree with their removal. However, secret doors in vaults could work, if the detection mechanism were different.
When generated, they get a hidden property which is the minimum T&D needed to reveal it. Vault can specify a range and/or it depends on depth. Behind secret doors, you'll usually find loot. Never mandatory, but useful.
I'd also add some randomisation to it, so that you' likely to find it after 3 turns, and almost certain after 6. Just so they are not immediately revealed when entering LOS. The mechanism could be used for traps and mimics btw.
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evilmike wrote:With this change, I'd suggest removing secret doors from *every* vault, except for those which use secret doors as shortcuts (zot:5 is an example). And they're hardly ever used for this, so what's the point?
evilmike wrote:I would also suggest adding a "runed door" feature if secret doors are removed.
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KoboldLord wrote:Where exactly does the line that defines secret door-ness go?
I don't want to see good secret door vaults removed, however, if the only reason for removal is the fact that the concept of secret doors offends somebody's Platonic Ideal of Nonspoileriness.
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XuaXua wrote:I'm reading galehar's secret door detection formula as
("T&D skill" * "time spent in close proximity" - "secrecy factor of door") <= 0, door is detected.
Where "secrecy factor of door" is probably some combination of values based on
"wall material" + "depth" + "vault-specific modifier" + "branch" + "small random fudge factor"
Galefury wrote:Your formula makes zero sense. Why not just say whatever it is you want to say with words?
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