Tartarus Sorceror
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Re: Remove shafts
nicu wrote:"fun" - This is subjective
Although the central place for design discussion is ##crawl-dev on freenode, some may find it helpful to discuss requests and suggestions here first.
Tartarus Sorceror
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nicu wrote:"fun" - This is subjective
Ziggurat Zagger
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Mines Malingerer
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nicu wrote:I'm a genetic freak
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Halls Hopper
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Halls Hopper
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duvessa wrote:So, does someone have a single example of an unavoidable death resulting from a shaft trap?
Cocytus Succeeder
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duvessa wrote:The thing is, walking into shafts is pretty much always avoidable.
duvessa wrote:So, does someone have a single example of an unavoidable death resulting from a shaft trap?
Because, as stupid as floor traps are, it seems to me like it'd require an incredible level of coincidence for a shaft trap to be dangerous, let alone cause an unavoidable death. Squares that monsters have walked on are guaranteed to be safe from traps, so even falling down a shaft in optimal play is incredibly unlikely, let alone the shaft having to a dangerous result, let alone that result being unavoidably fatal. According to Sequell I've been shafted 474 times, and there was only a single one of those cases where the resulting situation was dangerous (as far as I can recall). Now consider how tiny that number would be if I had actually made an effort to avoid traps.
Cocytus Succeeder
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Ziggurat Zagger
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ezero wrote:so i just tele out, read mapping and make my way back up. What a adventure.
ezero wrote:do you like to search for grinder for a thousand turns because you didnt saw him falling down a shaft?
duvessa wrote:The thing is, walking into shafts is pretty much always avoidable.
Ziggurat Zagger
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Sprucery wrote:Now that I think of it, all monsters should be made immune to shafts (and they shouldn't reveal the shaft either). Nemelex shafts exempted.
Halls Hopper
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duvessa wrote:I already did in my original post:duvessa wrote:So, does someone have a single example of an unavoidable death resulting from a shaft trap?
Because, as stupid as floor traps are, it seems to me like it'd require an incredible level of coincidence for a shaft trap to be dangerous, let alone cause an unavoidable death. Squares that monsters have walked on are guaranteed to be safe from traps, so even falling down a shaft in optimal play is incredibly unlikely, let alone the shaft having to a dangerous result, let alone that result being unavoidably fatal. According to Sequell I've been shafted 474 times, and there was only a single one of those cases where the resulting situation was dangerous (as far as I can recall). Now consider how tiny that number would be if I had actually made an effort to avoid traps.
Halls Hopper
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duvessa wrote:I would not consider that Orc death unavoidable though; it would've been avoided by not going into Orc so early, for example.
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Slime Squisher
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VeryAngryFelid wrote:Another reason to remove shafts is that they encourage slow play i.e. healing HP/MP up to 100% before exploring.
Ziggurat Zagger
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Implojin wrote:VeryAngryFelid wrote:Another reason to remove shafts is that they encourage slow play i.e. healing HP/MP up to 100% before exploring.
This is a problem with rest-to-heal, and would exist with or without traps.
(Resting needs to go, it's bad for pacing and its existence as a healing mechanic enables all manner of degenerate play.)
Ziggurat Zagger
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VeryAngryFelid wrote:Without traps I would use manual exploration with non-slow characters at abou 70% HP because I might retreat/lure most monsters while waiting to heal completely. So traps do make the problem much worse.
Ziggurat Zagger
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Siegurt wrote:Maybe for you, I'm not willing to manually explore at 70% hps, with or without traps (but I also have my "run away from combat" alert set to 70%)
Ziggurat Zagger
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VeryAngryFelid wrote:Siegurt wrote:Maybe for you, I'm not willing to manually explore at 70% hps, with or without traps (but I also have my "run away from combat" alert set to 70%)
In all situations? There are some corners with gold and other items, sometimes you even see that there are no monsters in that corner. I might pick up the gold while waiting for regen but not as long as traps exist.
Ziggurat Zagger
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Siegurt wrote:I don't consider "moving into an already explored corner which I can see in it's entirety and from which there are no unexplored exits" actual exploration (I only consider something to be 'exploring' if it reveals previously unseen squares.)
In the specific situation you mention, I would currently go pick up the items regardless of the possible presence of traps.
Ziggurat Zagger
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VeryAngryFelid wrote:Siegurt wrote:I don't consider "moving into an already explored corner which I can see in it's entirety and from which there are no unexplored exits" actual exploration (I only consider something to be 'exploring' if it reveals previously unseen squares.)
In the specific situation you mention, I would currently go pick up the items regardless of the possible presence of traps.
What if that corner has just 1 unexplored tile? Anyway, you are taking unnecessary risk from traps (and thus you are not optimal player too) if you go for the gold while wounded so I am not sure what you are trying to prove.
VeryAngryFelid wrote:Without traps I would use manual exploration with non-slow characters at abou 70% HP because I might retreat/lure most monsters while waiting to heal completely. So traps do make the problem much worse.
Halls Hopper
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amaril wrote:Except that landing in the middle of a vault/level is totally different from approaching from the safety of a clear line of retreat...
Mines Malingerer
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duvessa wrote:Instead, to make a compelling argument for removing or adding or changing a feature, you need to argue for how it would better meet DCSS's design goals with the change. In this case, I firmly believe the best argument is that traps produce grindy gameplay (tracking which squares monsters have stepped on, minimizing the number of unique squares you step on, delaying gold pickups, luring monsters into traps, and so on). There's also a good argument that traps make DCSS harder to learn, since they're mechanically somewhat complex, without providing a proportional increase in depth.
Barkeep
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duvessa wrote:The grindy gameplay can mostly be addressed by making traps activate as soon as they enter LOS, instead of when they are stepped on (and never let monsters activate traps). That way, the only way to avoid them would be to avoid exploring levels fully, which would lead to missing out on items.
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amaril wrote:It has been suggested before, but shaft other should be a monster spell if it creates good gameplay.
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