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Halls Hopper
Posts: 80
Joined: Sunday, 8th January 2017, 05:05
If it doesn't fit anywhere else, it belongs here. Also, come here if you just need to get hammered.
Halls Hopper
Posts: 80
Joined: Sunday, 8th January 2017, 05:05
Ziggurat Zagger
Posts: 4432
Joined: Friday, 8th May 2015, 17:51
Cocytus Succeeder
Posts: 2184
Joined: Tuesday, 3rd February 2015, 22:05
Halls Hopper
Posts: 68
Joined: Wednesday, 1st February 2017, 15:38
51465 | Crypt:3 | Reached XP level 23. HP: 125/147 MP: 13/54
51608 | Crypt:3 | Noticed an ancient lich
51620 | Crypt:3 | Killed an ancient lich
51640 | Crypt:3 | Identified Sif Muna's Papyrus of Execration
52078 | Crypt:3 | Found a staircase to the Tomb.
52152 | Tomb:1 | Entered Level 1 of the Tomb of the Ancients
52330 | Crypt:3 | Reached skill level 1 in Shields
52595 | Vaults:5 | Entered Level 5 of the Vaults
52598 | Vaults:5 | Reached skill level 1 in Fighting
52599 | Vaults:5 | Reached skill level 5 in Fighting
52713 | Vaults:5 | Reached skill level 10 in Fighting
52758 | Vaults:5 | Got a silver rune of Zot
52910 | Vaults:5 | Noticed an ancient lich
52921 | Vaults:5 | Killed an ancient lich
52953 | Vaults:5 | Reached XP level 24. HP: 136/198 MP: 20/54
Ziggurat Zagger
Posts: 4432
Joined: Friday, 8th May 2015, 17:51
Gozigzag wrote:Skilling in this game only serves to let players make bad decisions.
Tomb Titivator
Posts: 838
Joined: Friday, 2nd October 2015, 04:47
bel wrote:Fighting is weird.
In the early game, for "caster" background, Fighting takes a back seat to other skills. However, past the very early game, I pretty much always train Fighting, either focused or unfocused. Indeed, since I often don't settle on a weapon till somewhere in Lair or Orc or even later in many of my games, I keep training Fighting and use 0 skill melee to mop up.
I am not really sure if there are meaningful decisions in training Fighting. In most of my games, I follow pretty much the same script.
Halls Hopper
Posts: 68
Joined: Wednesday, 1st February 2017, 15:38
VeryAngryFelid wrote:Gozigzag wrote:Skilling in this game only serves to let players make bad decisions.
What?
Ziggurat Zagger
Posts: 4432
Joined: Friday, 8th May 2015, 17:51
Gozigzag wrote:There is a optimal skilling route that one should follow when playing optimally(one that im dont feel like discussing right now, if you disagree with that, lets just leave it at that). So being able to choose what to train only serves to dumb decisions like "i dont wanna train dodging" or "i want to cast tornado even thought i just started the game".
Ziggurat Zagger
Posts: 4478
Joined: Wednesday, 23rd October 2013, 07:56
Gozigzag wrote:There is a optimal skilling route that one should follow when playing optimally(one that im dont feel like discussing right now, if you disagree with that, lets just leave it at that).
Halls Hopper
Posts: 68
Joined: Wednesday, 1st February 2017, 15:38
Sprucery wrote:I just wonder how do you prove that something is the optimal skilling route?
VeryAngryFelid wrote:Do you think battle tactics or weapon choice is different?
VeryAngryFelid wrote:Optimal play does not involve any decisions by definition, one of N actions is always better. Just calculate chance of death and pick min.
VeryAngryFelid wrote:Edit. If you insist on strategic plan (like prepare to orb of fire by making yourself more vulnerable in Vaults),
Ziggurat Zagger
Posts: 4478
Joined: Wednesday, 23rd October 2013, 07:56
Gozigzag wrote:. In other words, you dont because its impossible.
Ziggurat Zagger
Posts: 4432
Joined: Friday, 8th May 2015, 17:51
Gozigzag wrote:You gamble or you simply dont commit to any weapon by training fighting/armor/shield or you just train the most common weapon that crosstrain with the other common weapons(axes/maces/polearms).
VeryAngryFelid wrote:Edit. If you insist on strategic plan (like prepare to orb of fire by making yourself more vulnerable in Vaults),
What are you talking about?
Halls Hopper
Posts: 68
Joined: Wednesday, 1st February 2017, 15:38
Sprucery wrote:Yes, that's why one shouldn't say that "There is a optimal skilling route that one should follow when playing optimally".
Sprucery wrote:Most probably there are several skilling routes that are good enough.
Sprucery wrote:Of course this all depends heavily on what is the definition of a skilling route.
Halls Hopper
Posts: 68
Joined: Wednesday, 1st February 2017, 15:38
VeryAngryFelid wrote:VeryAngryFelid wrote:Edit. If you insist on strategic plan (like prepare to orb of fire by making yourself more vulnerable in Vaults),
What are you talking about?
Optimal route depends on unknown variables so it is impossible to predict/prove. You prepare for orbs of fire and then you get the orb of zot without meeting any orbs of fire.
Ziggurat Zagger
Posts: 4432
Joined: Friday, 8th May 2015, 17:51
Gozigzag wrote:A goblin comes into view and then a adder comes into view and then sigmund comes into view and then sigmund has a potion of haste and then sigmund has a acid wand. Explain to me how optimal play allows you to see the future while optimal skilling doesnt.
Halls Hopper
Posts: 68
Joined: Wednesday, 1st February 2017, 15:38
VeryAngryFelid wrote:That's easy. You do optimal action for goblin, when adder comes into view you reevaluate situation and do optimal action again, when sigmund comes into view you reevaluate situation and do optimal action again and so on. Of course it means if you are at 1 HP adjacent to hasted sigmund after series of optimal actions, you would be already dead without optimal actions.
VeryAngryFelid wrote:My points was different. You blame skilling for being unnecessary (trap for bad decisions blah-blah-blah) but the same can be said about fighting any monster(s). It's a trap for bad decisions and there is an optimal way of fighting.
Crypt Cleanser
Posts: 714
Joined: Saturday, 5th December 2015, 06:56
Ziggurat Zagger
Posts: 4432
Joined: Friday, 8th May 2015, 17:51
Gozigzag wrote:hahaha, its easy if you say so. You dont even grasp on how complex optimal play is, in fact, i ended my tourney streak due to optimal play. If optimal move led you to a adder that led you to sigmund it was not optimal to do that, but you would have never guessed it until you saw that play out.
You choose to retreat to advantgeous position, a adder spawns behind you. You choose to fight the goblin because you have 99,9% of winning, you lose the fight. You have consumables but you dont wanna waste on a trivial fight, the fight scales out of control and consumables fail to save you. Ever heard of rng?????
VeryAngryFelid wrote:I didnt say any of that. In fact i said the opposite of that. Skills are very necessary and i would like to see them work for more than just spells.
Halls Hopper
Posts: 68
Joined: Wednesday, 1st February 2017, 15:38
VeryAngryFelid wrote:Rng does not change optimal play because it does not change probabilities, it just rolls dices. Remember to re-evaluate situation before every action. If you have 99.9% chance to defeat goblin, you start attacking. If on next turn you have 60% chance to defeat goblin (because you missed it but goblin rolled max damage), you don't continue attacking it (unless all other options are even worse).
VeryAngryFelid wrote:Do you want to require 10 levels in polearms before you are able to wield demon trident? That's a nice idea, I would support it.
VeryAngryFelid wrote:By the way skills don't work for spells either. You can cast Glaciate with 5 levels in Ice, just make sure to have crazy Int, wizardry and 20+ levels in Conjurations.
Ziggurat Zagger
Posts: 4432
Joined: Friday, 8th May 2015, 17:51
Gozigzag wrote:Same applies to optimal skilling.
VeryAngryFelid wrote:Do you want to require 10 levels in polearms before you are able to wield demon trident? That's a nice idea, I would support it.
Yes.
You can kill anything in the game with zero skill in axes if you are a minotaur of trog with a +9 executioner.
Halls Hopper
Posts: 68
Joined: Wednesday, 1st February 2017, 15:38
VeryAngryFelid wrote:Why so much killing power? A spear and zero berserks work too. What is it supposed to prove? That tactics is more important than skilling and that species work as difficulty levels? Sure.
VeryAngryFelid wrote:By the way skills don't work for spells either. You can cast Glaciate with 5 levels in Ice, just make sure to have crazy Int, wizardry and 20+ levels in Conjurations.
Tomb Titivator
Posts: 838
Joined: Friday, 2nd October 2015, 04:47
Tartarus Sorceror
Posts: 1822
Joined: Thursday, 31st May 2012, 15:45
Halls Hopper
Posts: 68
Joined: Wednesday, 1st February 2017, 15:38
MainiacJoe wrote:There was a time when I trained Fighting quite early on my casters because it helped both with HP and with the effectiveness of whatever "best floor weapon" I was using for popcorn at the time, without committing me to a weapon class. Is this a good plan?
Ziggurat Zagger
Posts: 4432
Joined: Friday, 8th May 2015, 17:51
Gozigzag wrote:and unless i see a morgue of that(the morgue of someone who didnt train anything spell related, just went for glaciate the way you mentioned) i will continue to believe that spell skilling works.
Ziggurat Zagger
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Joined: Friday, 8th May 2015, 17:51
Ziggurat Zagger
Posts: 6418
Joined: Friday, 6th July 2012, 12:48
Ziggurat Zagger
Posts: 4432
Joined: Friday, 8th May 2015, 17:51
Sar wrote:Gozag can give you brilliance and magic pots, so your wish is kind of granted.
Ziggurat Zagger
Posts: 4432
Joined: Friday, 8th May 2015, 17:51
Abyss Ambulator
Posts: 1194
Joined: Friday, 18th April 2014, 01:41
Ziggurat Zagger
Posts: 4478
Joined: Wednesday, 23rd October 2013, 07:56
Gozigzag wrote:Sprucery wrote:Most probably there are several skilling routes that are good enough.
Good enough =/= optimal.
Ziggurat Zagger
Posts: 6418
Joined: Friday, 6th July 2012, 12:48
Gozigzag wrote:Skilling in this game only serves to let players make bad decisions.
Halls Hopper
Posts: 68
Joined: Wednesday, 1st February 2017, 15:38
Sar wrote:Gozigzag wrote:Skilling in this game only serves to let players make bad decisions.
What's wrong with that, though?
VeryAngryFelid wrote:I've seen such morgues online but I cannot find them.
VeryAngryFelid wrote:It's ziggers who got Glaciate after fire Storm. I am not sure what's your point with that morgue.
VeryAngryFelid wrote:You realize that you would deal more damage with a hand axe or battleaxe than with exec. axe, do you?
VeryAngryFelid wrote:Also you berserked 112 times, it does not count
Ziggurat Zagger
Posts: 4432
Joined: Friday, 8th May 2015, 17:51
Gozigzag wrote:VeryAngryFelid wrote:You realize that you would deal more damage with a hand axe or battleaxe than with exec. axe, do you?
Show me.
Dont be that kind of loser.
Halls Hopper
Posts: 68
Joined: Wednesday, 1st February 2017, 15:38
Ziggurat Zagger
Posts: 4432
Joined: Friday, 8th May 2015, 17:51
Gozigzag wrote:ahahahaahah i knew you would pick a hill giant for your tests. Were you able to send those with a straight face?
Ziggurat Zagger
Posts: 6418
Joined: Friday, 6th July 2012, 12:48
Gozigzag wrote:I could add a cooking skill and ask you the same.
Halls Hopper
Posts: 68
Joined: Wednesday, 1st February 2017, 15:38
Sar wrote:If it made sense within the game's systems, it wouldn't be a bad addition even if training it was never objectively an optimal decision.
VeryAngryFelid wrote: Check my morgue if you doubt.
Rods
b - a +9 rod of inaccuracy (16/16) {!a}
(You found it in a labyrinth)
f - a +4 lightning rod (13/13) {!a}
(You bought it in a shop on level 1 of the Vaults)
m - a +1 rod of destruction (10/10) {!a}
(You took it off a merfolk on level 5 of the Shoals)
w - a +0 rod of the swarm (12/12) {!a}
(You took it off a minotaur on level 2 of the Depths)
A - a +2 rod of inaccuracy (10/10) {!a}
(You bought it in a shop on level 1 of the Vaults)
G - a +3 lightning rod (12/12) {!a}
(You took it off a minotaur in a labyrinth)
L - a +3 lightning rod (10/10) {!a}
(You took it off an orc knight on level 5 of the Vaults)
V - a +4 rod of clouds (11/11) {!a}
(You took it off a vault guard on level 5 of the Vaults)
Ziggurat Zagger
Posts: 6418
Joined: Friday, 6th July 2012, 12:48
Gozigzag wrote:You gotta eat, cook your food to get better nutrition, train cooking so you dont starve.
Halls Hopper
Posts: 68
Joined: Wednesday, 1st February 2017, 15:38
Sar wrote:Gozigzag wrote:You gotta eat, cook your food to get better nutrition, train cooking so you dont starve.
It doesn't make sense in the game's system because there's plenty of never-spoiling rations in the game and you can eat raw meat without any ill effects.
Sar wrote:Fighting effect on HP is pretty easy to understand and it's very easy to make a decision on training Fighting to get more HP.
Cocytus Succeeder
Posts: 2184
Joined: Tuesday, 3rd February 2015, 22:05
Gozigzag wrote:When i said to add a cooking skill the logic thing to assume is that the game would be balanced towards that, since you dont even have a cooking action atm, but you wouldnt assume that, because how else you gonna win the argument?
Gozigzag wrote:Same applies to optimal skilling, you hypocrite.
Gozigzag wrote:Dont be that kind of loser.
Ziggurat Zagger
Posts: 6418
Joined: Friday, 6th July 2012, 12:48
Gozigzag wrote:When i said to add a cooking skill the logic thing to assume is that the game would be balanced towards that, since you dont even have a cooking action atm, but you wouldnt assume that, because how else you gonna win the argument?
Gozigzag wrote:Then why does this thread even exists?
Dungeon Dilettante
Posts: 4
Joined: Thursday, 16th February 2017, 13:55
Sar wrote:Can you please attack my argument directly?
bel wrote:This is CYC and I'm pretty sure less than zero people give a fuck about who "wins" this argument.
bel wrote:If you can't argue without throwing around gratuitous insults, it might better to simply not engage.
Ziggurat Zagger
Posts: 6418
Joined: Friday, 6th July 2012, 12:48
notdynast wrote:everything else is just a boost
notdynast wrote:Lasty can you stop banning me now
Dungeon Dilettante
Posts: 4
Joined: Thursday, 16th February 2017, 13:55
Sar wrote:Why is it a bad thing to have a boost for people who want it?
Sar wrote:Wait, were you really banned?
Ziggurat Zagger
Posts: 4432
Joined: Friday, 8th May 2015, 17:51
Gozigzag wrote:lol.
Dungeon Dilettante
Posts: 4
Joined: Thursday, 16th February 2017, 13:55
VeryAngryFelid wrote:Gozigzag wrote:lol.
Do you think I killed orbs of fire with rod. lol indeed
Ziggurat Zagger
Posts: 4432
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totallynotdynastpleasedontbanme wrote:Im gonna lol harder if you didnt. Even TS burned all his boxes to kill the oofes.
Ziggurat Zagger
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Joined: Friday, 6th July 2012, 12:48
dynast wrote:I NEVER said it was a bad thing
Blades Runner
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