Remove fighting skill


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Post Wednesday, 15th February 2017, 04:23

Remove fighting skill

Doesn't do much and characters can gain hp by leveling up.
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Post Wednesday, 15th February 2017, 05:35

Re: Remove fighting skill

It's interesting to see how some casters win the game with very low fighting. Extra decisions are good.
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Post Wednesday, 15th February 2017, 05:48

Re: Remove fighting skill

Fighting is weird.

In the early game, for "caster" background, Fighting takes a back seat to other skills. However, past the very early game, I pretty much always train Fighting, either focused or unfocused. Indeed, since I often don't settle on a weapon till somewhere in Lair or Orc or even later in many of my games, I keep training Fighting and use 0 skill melee to mop up.

I am not really sure if there are meaningful decisions in training Fighting. In most of my games, I follow pretty much the same script.

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Post Wednesday, 15th February 2017, 12:47

Re: Remove fighting skill

Here is an extreme example of not training fighting until later in the game:
http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/Dynast/morg ... 013658.txt
  Code:
 51465 | Crypt:3  | Reached XP level 23. HP: 125/147 MP: 13/54
 51608 | Crypt:3  | Noticed an ancient lich
 51620 | Crypt:3  | Killed an ancient lich
 51640 | Crypt:3  | Identified Sif Muna's Papyrus of Execration
 52078 | Crypt:3  | Found a staircase to the Tomb.
 52152 | Tomb:1   | Entered Level 1 of the Tomb of the Ancients
 52330 | Crypt:3  | Reached skill level 1 in Shields
 52595 | Vaults:5 | Entered Level 5 of the Vaults
 52598 | Vaults:5 | Reached skill level 1 in Fighting
 52599 | Vaults:5 | Reached skill level 5 in Fighting
 52713 | Vaults:5 | Reached skill level 10 in Fighting
 52758 | Vaults:5 | Got a silver rune of Zot
 52910 | Vaults:5 | Noticed an ancient lich
 52921 | Vaults:5 | Killed an ancient lich
 52953 | Vaults:5 | Reached XP level 24. HP: 136/198 MP: 20/54

Skilling in this game only serves to let players make bad decisions. It only works for spells because... guess... you cant use spells without training it first.

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Post Wednesday, 15th February 2017, 13:12

Re: Remove fighting skill

Gozigzag wrote:Skilling in this game only serves to let players make bad decisions.


What?
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Post Wednesday, 15th February 2017, 13:17

Re: Remove fighting skill

bel wrote:Fighting is weird.

In the early game, for "caster" background, Fighting takes a back seat to other skills. However, past the very early game, I pretty much always train Fighting, either focused or unfocused. Indeed, since I often don't settle on a weapon till somewhere in Lair or Orc or even later in many of my games, I keep training Fighting and use 0 skill melee to mop up.

I am not really sure if there are meaningful decisions in training Fighting. In most of my games, I follow pretty much the same script.

I feel like this a lot lately.

Except for casters (who often need spell slots first, so it's too often just Spellcasting for 5-10 levels for ranged spells).

I wonder if it might be possible to provide each class with some more obvious, minimal skills and lose some of the more capricious randomness of at least D:1-2. (Spoken just after meeting a gnoll in the midst of a few kobolds and goblins while playing a caster on D:1 ahem.)

I don't know if it's necessary to remove such skills entirely (I do like more variety and choices in general). But endlessly pouring xp into a "basic" skill does get monotonous.
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Post Wednesday, 15th February 2017, 13:21

Re: Remove fighting skill

VeryAngryFelid wrote:
Gozigzag wrote:Skilling in this game only serves to let players make bad decisions.


What?

There is a optimal skilling route that one should follow when playing optimally(one that im dont feel like discussing right now, if you disagree with that, lets just leave it at that). So being able to choose what to train only serves to dumb decisions like "i dont wanna train dodging" or "i want to cast tornado even thought i just started the game".

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Post Wednesday, 15th February 2017, 13:26

Re: Remove fighting skill

Gozigzag wrote:There is a optimal skilling route that one should follow when playing optimally(one that im dont feel like discussing right now, if you disagree with that, lets just leave it at that). So being able to choose what to train only serves to dumb decisions like "i dont wanna train dodging" or "i want to cast tornado even thought i just started the game".


Do you think battle tactics or weapon choice is different? Optimal play does not involve any decisions by definition, one of N actions is always better. Just calculate chance of death and pick min.

Edit. If you insist on strategic plan (like prepare to orb of fire by making yourself more vulnerable in Vaults), you still can compare different skill trees (routes) and pick the best with min total chance to die. That's what you meant I guess.
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Post Wednesday, 15th February 2017, 13:32

Re: Remove fighting skill

Gozigzag wrote:There is a optimal skilling route that one should follow when playing optimally(one that im dont feel like discussing right now, if you disagree with that, lets just leave it at that).

I just wonder how do you prove that something is the optimal skilling route?
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Post Wednesday, 15th February 2017, 13:48

Re: Remove fighting skill

Sprucery wrote:I just wonder how do you prove that something is the optimal skilling route?

  Code:
Dynast (NaWn) has played 35 games, between 2016-02-03 19:24:42 and 2017-01-04 23:48:29, won 30 (85.7%), high score 3626230, total score 80790005, total turns 1802490, play-time/day 0:22:58, total time 5d+9:04:11.

You win the majority of your games following what you believe to be the optimal skilling route and then ou tell others to do better or shut up. In other words, you dont because its impossible.
VeryAngryFelid wrote:Do you think battle tactics or weapon choice is different?

You gamble or you simply dont commit to any weapon by training fighting/armor/shield or you just train the most common weapon that crosstrain with the other common weapons(axes/maces/polearms).
VeryAngryFelid wrote:Optimal play does not involve any decisions by definition, one of N actions is always better. Just calculate chance of death and pick min.

Optimal skilling is exactly training what has the least chance of getting you killed.
VeryAngryFelid wrote:Edit. If you insist on strategic plan (like prepare to orb of fire by making yourself more vulnerable in Vaults),

What are you talking about?
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Post Wednesday, 15th February 2017, 13:59

Re: Remove fighting skill

Gozigzag wrote:. In other words, you dont because its impossible.

Yes, that's why one shouldn't say that "There is a optimal skilling route that one should follow when playing optimally".

Most probably there are several skilling routes that are good enough. Of course this all depends heavily on what is the definition of a skilling route.
...{MfWnMiAK}TeAMDrIE{FoVMVSFi}{MuVMGhGlVpMo}HaWrSpWz{OgGlTrMo}{CeWnMfBeMiSk}DrEE
{GrFiFoGl}DgEnFeNe{OpGlHuSu}DDArHaCKSpAEGrTmDgFEDsCjGhMoHuVM{HaAMBaEn}{HuMoHOWn}DsWz
DDHu{DgWnGnBe}FeIE{MiEnMfCj}SpNeBaEEGrFE{HaAKTrCK}DsFESpHu{FoArNaBe}FeEE{HOIEMiAE}GrGl

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Post Wednesday, 15th February 2017, 14:32

Re: Remove fighting skill

Gozigzag wrote:You gamble or you simply dont commit to any weapon by training fighting/armor/shield or you just train the most common weapon that crosstrain with the other common weapons(axes/maces/polearms).


I was talking about something different. Battle tactics is "A goblin comes into view". What's your next key pressed? It's easy to choose one when playing optimally. Similarly with "You found a runed dagger" for weapon choice. I believe it's possible to program a bot to play optimally at all levels but it does not mean that crawl is bad/useless for humans. Similar thing happened with chess and go.

VeryAngryFelid wrote:Edit. If you insist on strategic plan (like prepare to orb of fire by making yourself more vulnerable in Vaults),

What are you talking about?

Optimal route depends on unknown variables so it is impossible to predict/prove. You prepare for orbs of fire and then you get the orb of zot without meeting any orbs of fire.
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Post Wednesday, 15th February 2017, 14:36

Re: Remove fighting skill

Sprucery wrote:Yes, that's why one shouldn't say that "There is a optimal skilling route that one should follow when playing optimally".

I said its impossible for me to prove there is a optimal skilling route because it would require mastering every single combination of race, background, weapon and spell and then SHOW IT, while you all are still trying to deny the fact that you all already follow a optimal skilling route, even if you all dont actually knows if it really is optimal. Meanwhile some players just dont do that even if they are aware that not training a certain skill will come to bite them in the ass later because thats the purpose of being able to choose which skills to train.
Sprucery wrote:Most probably there are several skilling routes that are good enough.

Good enough =/= optimal.
Sprucery wrote:Of course this all depends heavily on what is the definition of a skilling route.

I thought it was pretty obvious what optimal skilling route meant.

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Post Wednesday, 15th February 2017, 14:42

Re: Remove fighting skill

VeryAngryFelid wrote:
VeryAngryFelid wrote:Edit. If you insist on strategic plan (like prepare to orb of fire by making yourself more vulnerable in Vaults),

What are you talking about?

Optimal route depends on unknown variables so it is impossible to predict/prove. You prepare for orbs of fire and then you get the orb of zot without meeting any orbs of fire.

A goblin comes into view and then a adder comes into view and then sigmund comes into view and then sigmund has a potion of haste and then sigmund has a acid wand. Explain to me how optimal play allows you to see the future while optimal skilling doesnt.

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Post Wednesday, 15th February 2017, 15:07

Re: Remove fighting skill

Gozigzag wrote:A goblin comes into view and then a adder comes into view and then sigmund comes into view and then sigmund has a potion of haste and then sigmund has a acid wand. Explain to me how optimal play allows you to see the future while optimal skilling doesnt.


That's easy. You do optimal action for goblin, when adder comes into view you reevaluate situation and do optimal action again, when sigmund comes into view you reevaluate situation and do optimal action again and so on. Of course it means if you are at 1 HP adjacent to hasted sigmund after series of optimal actions, you would be already dead without optimal actions.

My points was different. You blame skilling for being unnecessary (trap for bad decisions blah-blah-blah) but the same can be said about fighting any monster(s). It's a trap for bad decisions and there is an optimal way of fighting.
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Post Wednesday, 15th February 2017, 15:43

Re: Remove fighting skill

VeryAngryFelid wrote:That's easy. You do optimal action for goblin, when adder comes into view you reevaluate situation and do optimal action again, when sigmund comes into view you reevaluate situation and do optimal action again and so on. Of course it means if you are at 1 HP adjacent to hasted sigmund after series of optimal actions, you would be already dead without optimal actions.

hahaha, its easy if you say so. You dont even grasp on how complex optimal play is, in fact, i ended my tourney streak due to optimal play. If optimal move led you to a adder that led you to sigmund it was not optimal to do that, but you would have never guessed it until you saw that play out.

You choose to retreat to advantgeous position, a adder spawns behind you. You choose to fight the goblin because you have 99,9% of winning, you lose the fight. You have consumables but you dont wanna waste on a trivial fight, the fight scales out of control and consumables fail to save you. Ever heard of rng?????
VeryAngryFelid wrote:My points was different. You blame skilling for being unnecessary (trap for bad decisions blah-blah-blah) but the same can be said about fighting any monster(s). It's a trap for bad decisions and there is an optimal way of fighting.

I didnt say any of that. In fact i said the opposite of that. Skills are very necessary and i would like to see them work for more than just spells.

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Post Wednesday, 15th February 2017, 15:54

Re: Remove fighting skill

Skilling doesnt need to be dumbed down any further imo.

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Post Wednesday, 15th February 2017, 16:12

Re: Remove fighting skill

Gozigzag wrote:hahaha, its easy if you say so. You dont even grasp on how complex optimal play is, in fact, i ended my tourney streak due to optimal play. If optimal move led you to a adder that led you to sigmund it was not optimal to do that, but you would have never guessed it until you saw that play out.

You choose to retreat to advantgeous position, a adder spawns behind you. You choose to fight the goblin because you have 99,9% of winning, you lose the fight. You have consumables but you dont wanna waste on a trivial fight, the fight scales out of control and consumables fail to save you. Ever heard of rng?????

Rng does not change optimal play because it does not change probabilities, it just rolls dices. Remember to re-evaluate situation before every action. If you have 99.9% chance to defeat goblin, you start attacking. If on next turn you have 60% chance to defeat goblin (because you missed it but goblin rolled max damage), you don't continue attacking it (unless all other options are even worse).


VeryAngryFelid wrote:I didnt say any of that. In fact i said the opposite of that. Skills are very necessary and i would like to see them work for more than just spells.


Do you want to require 10 levels in polearms before you are able to wield demon trident? That's a nice idea, I would support it.

By the way skills don't work for spells either. You can cast Glaciate with 5 levels in Ice, just make sure to have crazy Int, wizardry and 20+ levels in Conjurations.
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Post Wednesday, 15th February 2017, 16:25

Re: Remove fighting skill

VeryAngryFelid wrote:Rng does not change optimal play because it does not change probabilities, it just rolls dices. Remember to re-evaluate situation before every action. If you have 99.9% chance to defeat goblin, you start attacking. If on next turn you have 60% chance to defeat goblin (because you missed it but goblin rolled max damage), you don't continue attacking it (unless all other options are even worse).

Same applies to optimal skilling, you hypocrite.
VeryAngryFelid wrote:Do you want to require 10 levels in polearms before you are able to wield demon trident? That's a nice idea, I would support it.

Yes.
VeryAngryFelid wrote:By the way skills don't work for spells either. You can cast Glaciate with 5 levels in Ice, just make sure to have crazy Int, wizardry and 20+ levels in Conjurations.

You can kill anything in the game with zero skill in axes if you are a minotaur of trog with a +9 executioner.

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Post Wednesday, 15th February 2017, 16:30

Re: Remove fighting skill

Gozigzag wrote:Same applies to optimal skilling.


Yes, that's my point. Skilling and tactics have the same "problems".

VeryAngryFelid wrote:Do you want to require 10 levels in polearms before you are able to wield demon trident? That's a nice idea, I would support it.

Yes.


I am afraid devs won't like it.

You can kill anything in the game with zero skill in axes if you are a minotaur of trog with a +9 executioner.


Why so much killing power? A spear and zero berserks work too. What is it supposed to prove? That tactics is more important than skilling and that species work as difficulty levels? Sure.
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Post Wednesday, 15th February 2017, 16:39

Re: Remove fighting skill

VeryAngryFelid wrote:Why so much killing power? A spear and zero berserks work too. What is it supposed to prove? That tactics is more important than skilling and that species work as difficulty levels? Sure.

You are the one who brought up
VeryAngryFelid wrote:By the way skills don't work for spells either. You can cast Glaciate with 5 levels in Ice, just make sure to have crazy Int, wizardry and 20+ levels in Conjurations.
and unless i see a morgue of that(the morgue of someone who didnt train anything spell related, just went for glaciate the way you mentioned) i will continue to believe that spell skilling works. Meanwhile:
http://crawl.berotato.org/crawl/morgue/ ... 202827.txt
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Post Wednesday, 15th February 2017, 16:41

Re: Remove fighting skill

From a thematic/flavor point of view, gaining some background skills as you level would make a lot of sense.

It would be boring if all skills were simply locked into class tracks and auto-leveling, but it's kind of odd how you can decide to basically ignore your whole background and toss everything into training anything you get your hands on. Or just train Fighting or Stealth or whatever with no concern for your original class. While this is amusing for challenge runs where you're given a difficult class to begin with and some simpler skill choice makes it much easier to succeed, under normal circumstances we're having to train the most obvious things for your background full-time, much of the time or risk being extremely weak in common encounters. This part can feel a little flat.

Then again, flavor-wise it might also make more sense to actually have to do the things you're training. As opposed to training Fighting or some melee skill while constantly shooting a sling. If you have to pick up a weapon type to train that type to begin with, why can you train whatever you want (of the eligible ones anyway) without actually being required to use the thing you're supposedly learning? That being said, I like the cross-training system for weapons (it might be nice to see some of it for some spells, like maybe a fraction of Charms training goes toward Hexes). I don't mean to suggest making the tracks totally rigid. But even while playing along with the game system, I have to keep laughing at the idea of training stuff I'm not doing at all so that I'll have that other stuff later. Is there just some unshown hours of character sitting around conjuring images of self doing stuff that they've never done? "I think I can, I think I can... Ahhh! Level 10 Crossbows and never fired a shot! Yesss."
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Post Wednesday, 15th February 2017, 16:45

Re: Remove fighting skill

There was a time when I trained Fighting quite early on my casters because it helped both with HP and with the effectiveness of whatever "best floor weapon" I was using for popcorn at the time, without committing me to a weapon class. Is this a good plan?
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Post Wednesday, 15th February 2017, 16:59

Re: Remove fighting skill

MainiacJoe wrote:There was a time when I trained Fighting quite early on my casters because it helped both with HP and with the effectiveness of whatever "best floor weapon" I was using for popcorn at the time, without committing me to a weapon class. Is this a good plan?

Yes, just pay attention to how many skill points it takes to increase fighting in comparison to whatever other spells you are training.

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Post Wednesday, 15th February 2017, 17:09

Re: Remove fighting skill

Gozigzag wrote:and unless i see a morgue of that(the morgue of someone who didnt train anything spell related, just went for glaciate the way you mentioned) i will continue to believe that spell skilling works.


I've seen such morgues online but I cannot find them. It's ziggers who got Glaciate after fire Storm. I am not sure what's your point with that morgue. You realize that you would deal more damage with a hand axe or battleaxe than with exec. axe, do you?
Also you berserked 112 times, it does not count :)

http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/Sandman26/m ... 234754.txt
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Post Wednesday, 15th February 2017, 17:14

Re: Remove fighting skill

FR: a god who gives brilliance and MP for piety, for challenge runs where players use level 5 spells with 0 skills in magic.
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Post Wednesday, 15th February 2017, 17:16

Re: Remove fighting skill

Gozag can give you brilliance and magic pots, so your wish is kind of granted.

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Post Wednesday, 15th February 2017, 17:36

Re: Remove fighting skill

Sar wrote:Gozag can give you brilliance and magic pots, so your wish is kind of granted.


It's not reliable which is very important for challenge runs. Not in the same league with 112 berserks via Trog.
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Post Wednesday, 15th February 2017, 17:37

Re: Remove fighting skill

Maybe even remove piety in that FR by me. Berserk does not cost explicit piety.
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Post Wednesday, 15th February 2017, 21:24

Re: Remove fighting skill

I actually think this would be a good idea but it would require a radical rework of crawl combat formulae.
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Post Wednesday, 15th February 2017, 21:36

Re: Remove fighting skill

Gozigzag wrote:
Sprucery wrote:Most probably there are several skilling routes that are good enough.

Good enough =/= optimal.

Yes, and my point is that whatever your win% is, you can't claim that you know the optimal skilling route, just a good enough one.
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Post Thursday, 16th February 2017, 08:15

Re: Remove fighting skill

Gozigzag wrote:Skilling in this game only serves to let players make bad decisions.

What's wrong with that, though? There is no gameplay in Crawl except for decision-making. If you remove bad decisions, there's no game left, only a bunch of pixel art and literature quotes.

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Post Thursday, 16th February 2017, 12:41

Re: Remove fighting skill

Sar wrote:
Gozigzag wrote:Skilling in this game only serves to let players make bad decisions.

What's wrong with that, though?

I could add a cooking skill and ask you the same.
VeryAngryFelid wrote:I've seen such morgues online but I cannot find them.

Here, let me give you one of my own:
http://crawl.berotato.org/crawl/morgue/ ... 214211.txt
Entered a zig only to get tornado after playing the whole game using earth. That does mean i used something else to get there though, thats not the morgue i asked you for, try again.
VeryAngryFelid wrote:It's ziggers who got Glaciate after fire Storm. I am not sure what's your point with that morgue.

That TS won his game using axes without training it, nothing else.
VeryAngryFelid wrote:You realize that you would deal more damage with a hand axe or battleaxe than with exec. axe, do you?

Show me.
VeryAngryFelid wrote:Also you berserked 112 times, it does not count

Dont be that kind of loser.

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Post Thursday, 16th February 2017, 12:51

Re: Remove fighting skill

Gozigzag wrote:
VeryAngryFelid wrote:You realize that you would deal more damage with a hand axe or battleaxe than with exec. axe, do you?

Show me.


Vs hill giant.

+7 exec. of flaming
  Code:
           AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
Attacking:     33,1 |    116 |      88% |  29,4 |   200  |  0,50 |     14,7


+7 battleaxe of flaming
  Code:
           AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
Attacking:     29,0 |    103 |      87% |  25,5 |   170  |  0,59 |     15,0


+9 battleaxe of flaming
  Code:
           AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
Attacking:     30,2 |     99 |      88% |  26,8 |   170  |  0,59 |     15,8


Dont be that kind of loser.


You realize that you would probably die without berserking, don't you?

+7 exec. flaming with berserk
  Code:
           AvHitDam | MaxDam | Accuracy | AvDam | AvTime | AvSpeed | AvEffDam
Attacking:     45,6 |    142 |      88% |  40,2 |   133  |  0,75 |     30,2
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Halls Hopper

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Post Thursday, 16th February 2017, 12:54

Re: Remove fighting skill

ahahahaahah i knew you would pick a hill giant for your tests. Were you able to send those with a straight face?

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Thursday, 16th February 2017, 12:57

Re: Remove fighting skill

Gozigzag wrote:ahahahaahah i knew you would pick a hill giant for your tests. Were you able to send those with a straight face?


Actually I tested it with Armour 27, Fighting 27 and Str 33/Dex 18 so it was done in your favor. Do you want me to test it with real data like it happens at XL 10-15 when you indeed fight Hill giants at that point? Because that's when you have highest chance to die, with AC 44 and rF+++ you can do whatever vs orbs of fire and alike. Check my morgue if you doubt.
Last edited by VeryAngryFelid on Thursday, 16th February 2017, 12:59, edited 2 times in total.
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Sar

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Post Thursday, 16th February 2017, 12:58

Re: Remove fighting skill

Gozigzag wrote:I could add a cooking skill and ask you the same.

If it made sense within the game's systems, it wouldn't be a bad addition even if training it was never objectively an optimal decision.

Halls Hopper

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Joined: Wednesday, 1st February 2017, 15:38

Post Thursday, 16th February 2017, 13:00

Re: Remove fighting skill

how about you try it on every creature in the game so you can get actual results. Or at least pick a orc knight.
Sar wrote:If it made sense within the game's systems, it wouldn't be a bad addition even if training it was never objectively an optimal decision.

It makes total sense within the game's system. You gotta eat, cook your food to get better nutrition, train cooking so you dont starve.
VeryAngryFelid wrote: Check my morgue if you doubt.

  Code:
Rods
 b - a +9 rod of inaccuracy (16/16) {!a}
   (You found it in a labyrinth)
 f - a +4 lightning rod (13/13) {!a}
   (You bought it in a shop on level 1 of the Vaults)
 m - a +1 rod of destruction (10/10) {!a}
   (You took it off a merfolk on level 5 of the Shoals)
 w - a +0 rod of the swarm (12/12) {!a}
   (You took it off a minotaur on level 2 of the Depths)
 A - a +2 rod of inaccuracy (10/10) {!a}
   (You bought it in a shop on level 1 of the Vaults)
 G - a +3 lightning rod (12/12) {!a}
   (You took it off a minotaur in a labyrinth)
 L - a +3 lightning rod (10/10) {!a}
   (You took it off an orc knight on level 5 of the Vaults)
 V - a +4 rod of clouds (11/11) {!a}
   (You took it off a vault guard on level 5 of the Vaults)

  Code:
       Rod               |       |       |       |       |       |    55 |    92 |   125 |   312 ||   584

lol.

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Rast

Sar

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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Thursday, 16th February 2017, 13:20

Re: Remove fighting skill

Gozigzag wrote:You gotta eat, cook your food to get better nutrition, train cooking so you dont starve.

It doesn't make sense in the game's system because there's plenty of never-spoiling rations in the game and you can eat raw meat without any ill effects.

Fighting effect on HP is pretty easy to understand and it's very easy to make a decision on training Fighting to get more HP. Its effect on melee and ranged damage are more arcane, though, and supposedly no less significant.

Halls Hopper

Posts: 68

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Post Thursday, 16th February 2017, 13:30

Re: Remove fighting skill

Sar wrote:
Gozigzag wrote:You gotta eat, cook your food to get better nutrition, train cooking so you dont starve.

It doesn't make sense in the game's system because there's plenty of never-spoiling rations in the game and you can eat raw meat without any ill effects.

When i said to add a cooking skill the logic thing to assume is that the game would be balanced towards that, since you dont even have a cooking action atm, but you wouldnt assume that, because how else you gonna win the argument?
Sar wrote:Fighting effect on HP is pretty easy to understand and it's very easy to make a decision on training Fighting to get more HP.

Then why does this thread even exists?

bel

Dis Charger

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Post Thursday, 16th February 2017, 13:45

Re: Remove fighting skill

Gozigzag wrote:When i said to add a cooking skill the logic thing to assume is that the game would be balanced towards that, since you dont even have a cooking action atm, but you wouldnt assume that, because how else you gonna win the argument?

This is CYC and I'm pretty sure less than zero people give a fuck about who "wins" this argument.

Gozigzag wrote:Same applies to optimal skilling, you hypocrite.

Gozigzag wrote:Dont be that kind of loser.

If you can't argue without throwing around gratuitous insults, it might better to simply not engage.

Sar

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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Thursday, 16th February 2017, 13:55

Re: Remove fighting skill

Gozigzag wrote:When i said to add a cooking skill the logic thing to assume is that the game would be balanced towards that, since you dont even have a cooking action atm, but you wouldnt assume that, because how else you gonna win the argument?

What argument am I supposed to want to win? The cooking skill example was yours, and I don't understand where are you going with it. But okay, I admit, I don't see anything wrong with a hypothetical Cooking skill if it was integrated within the game and balanced good enough (not perfectly!) against its content. I really don't know where are you going with it. Can you please attack my argument directly? Do you really think that Crawl would be a better game without skills?

Gozigzag wrote:Then why does this thread even exists?

because a guy named TrumpTrain thought it was a good idea to make it

Dungeon Dilettante

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Post Thursday, 16th February 2017, 13:59

Re: Remove fighting skill

Sar wrote:Can you please attack my argument directly?

I already made my case that spell skills work in this game because they unlock things, everything else is just a boost.
bel wrote:This is CYC and I'm pretty sure less than zero people give a fuck about who "wins" this argument.

If you dont want to argue with me just mark me as a foe. I dont want my words to scar you for life.
bel wrote:If you can't argue without throwing around gratuitous insults, it might better to simply not engage.

playground taunting, not insults, but your wear it if you want, or just dont.

Lasty can you stop banning me now and go back to playing? i want to watch you play...

Sar

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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Thursday, 16th February 2017, 14:06

Re: Remove fighting skill

notdynast wrote:everything else is just a boost

Why is it a bad thing to have a boost for people who want it? Is Dodging a bad skill because all it does if giving you an EV boost? I actually don't know, maybe Dodging is a bad skill that is never worth training. I mean, I really don't know that. Either way, it's a choice. Like, you might realize in your infinite wisdom that it's a bad choice, but most players don't. I don't. And it works ~well enough~

notdynast wrote:Lasty can you stop banning me now

Wait, were you really banned? What the fuck? I mean, you are kind of an asshole, but it's not like you're only one and just banning people without announcement because of that is really fucking stupid.

For this message the author Sar has received thanks:
VeryAngryFelid

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Post Thursday, 16th February 2017, 14:20

Re: Remove fighting skill

Sar wrote:Why is it a bad thing to have a boost for people who want it?

I NEVER said it was a bad thing(if i actually did, quote it and i will apologise). I was just pointing out that skills just serve to let players make bad decisions. If thats good or bad, thats subjective.

And i pointed out that spells are the only thing that works and my cooking example can have as many forms and there are things in this game: traps skill, regeneration skill, running skill, you name it.
edit:
Sar wrote:Wait, were you really banned?

the ban was deserved, wont worry about it.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Thursday, 16th February 2017, 14:28

Re: Remove fighting skill

Gozigzag wrote:lol.


Do you think I killed orbs of fire with rod. lol indeed
Underestimated: cleaving, Deep Elf, Formicid, Vehumet, EV
Overestimated: AC, GDS
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Dungeon Dilettante

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Post Thursday, 16th February 2017, 15:31

Re: Remove fighting skill

VeryAngryFelid wrote:
Gozigzag wrote:lol.


Do you think I killed orbs of fire with rod. lol indeed

Im gonna lol harder if you didnt. Even TS burned all his boxes to kill the oofes.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Joined: Friday, 8th May 2015, 17:51

Post Thursday, 16th February 2017, 16:26

Re: Remove fighting skill

totallynotdynastpleasedontbanme wrote:Im gonna lol harder if you didnt. Even TS burned all his boxes to kill the oofes.


I attacked orbs dozens of times with spear, hasted and mighted of course.
I don't use boxes. Don't ask me why or I will ask you about Dodging.

Edit. Oops, it looks like I will not get any answer because of bans.
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Sar

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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Thursday, 16th February 2017, 17:03

Re: Remove fighting skill

dynast wrote:I NEVER said it was a bad thing

Well, when you put it like you did, it sounded very dismissive. If you didn't mean that, I apologize for interjecting.

Blades Runner

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Post Friday, 17th February 2017, 00:56

Re: Remove fighting skill

lame
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