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Re: Remove Poison Magic School and Venom Mage
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poot112 wrote:Maybe they could change it to a corrosion or blight class instead of poison. Debuff and damage at the same time instead of becoming dogshit useless and a waste of skill points at nearly the moment you enter the entrance to the dungeon. Call it a "corrupter" or something like in Tales of Maj'Eyal.
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ZipZipskins wrote:It seems that you're awfully fond of putting words in my mouth
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ZipZipskins wrote:edit: well except ice beasts and sticky flame, maybe I need to reassess here lol, VM really definitely does suck
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VeryAngryFelid wrote:ZipZipskins wrote:It seems that you're awfully fond of putting words in my mouth
You started it first with your "I just think you choose a really poor example to support your point".
I really didn't have any points, I just provided an example of hard VM which I played. Is it that hard to understand?
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severen wrote:it seems to me that the only real way to get poison magic to scale up past level 6 is to have later stuff do corrosion things
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xXxMemekMaestro69xXx wrote:severen wrote:it seems to me that the only real way to get poison magic to scale up past level 6 is to have later stuff do corrosion things
Not really. There are a lot of possible spells for poison magic and even a level 9 spell that can compete with the current four level 9 AOE burst spells without resorting to acid while maintaining its DOT trait. If Tornado is DOT done right then Poison magic can do that too.
No one is actively suggesting anything since the devs seem very enthusiastic to remove Poison Magic but can't do it for the silly reason of being very awkward since poison is a main feature of this game that even someone dying to a D2 adder would feel. Since they don't like it, they neither would improve it no matter how many ideas they see nor remove it no matter how many rant threads pop up since it'll be very awkward. The best response you'd get from the devs are probably "use weapons lol" and other simply ebin meme posts.
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severen wrote:I think you are over emphasizing the DOT features. Venom bolt does significant up front damage and just happens to poison as well. The main reason to switch over to acid is resistances/immunities. This is born out by poison arrow which explicitly has a portion of it being unresistable.
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KoboldLord wrote:severen wrote:I think you are over emphasizing the DOT features. Venom bolt does significant up front damage and just happens to poison as well. The main reason to switch over to acid is resistances/immunities. This is born out by poison arrow which explicitly has a portion of it being unresistable.
There is no reason to have a poison school unless it's going to poison things. Poison magic has two problems. The first is that it has a hard time following the mechanical theme it is supposed to be following, because that theme is not robust enough to hang a skill on. The second is that the theme in question is a bad one that is bad for gameplay if you actually try to use it.
Venom bolt and poison arrow are indeed good and strong spells, but they have a near-complete overlap in effect with far too many other conjurations spells. Remove the DoT emphasis from poison magic, and the remaining spells don't consist of enough spells to make up a school.
The DoT emphasis is consistent with poison's effect as a status effect, but DoT emphasis is bad for gameplay because it encourages the player to abuse a powerful but tedious mechanic for a very significant portion of gameplay. If a DoT effect is to remain in the game, it should not be sequestered in the DoT Ghetto where it will force a player who wants to use it to use it almost exclusively, but it should be distributed in a way that means it is only occasionally the best way to solve problems. A consumable item would be about right, and the FE sticky flame is right about borderline because it has some serious drawbacks and competes with some other strong spells.
Gutting poison magic and merging what little remains into hexes is possibly worth trying, but it is not feasible to fix poison magic gameplay as it currently exists because the DoT mechanic itself is generally going to be a bad one.
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VeryAngryFelid wrote:I am surprised we cannot call tavern meme tavern meme
Croases wrote:How did I "dismiss" the point of Necromutation being bad?
I think I clearly explained why I don't think it is.
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Croases wrote:So wait, you're saying that you casually dismissed my point so that you could chastise me for casually dismissing somebody else's point?
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ThreeInvisibleDucks wrote:Lichform unreasons:
- You already have torment resistance, like Kiku or Statue Form.
- You have the best-in-class holy or antimagic weapon.
- rN+++, no good mutations to protect.
- You're wearing CPA/GDA.
- You're not casting spells at all, or have lousy Int.
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CanOfWorms wrote:ThreeInvisibleDucks wrote:Lichform unreasons:
- You already have torment resistance, like Kiku or Statue Form.
- You have the best-in-class holy or antimagic weapon.
- rN+++, no good mutations to protect.
- You're wearing CPA/GDA.
- You're not casting spells at all, or have lousy Int.
you want to drink potions or use death's door/borg's
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CanOfWorms wrote:you do realize you can't use borg's while in lich form right
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VeryAngryFelid wrote:Saying that Necromutation is bad is like saying Fire Storm or Silence is bad. Sure, there are some characters for whom this is true but there are some characters where it is optimal to go for those spells. Almost (?) nobody is crying about Fire Storm or Silence being a trap while we do have a tavern meme about lichform.
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KoboldLord wrote:Fire Storm *is* bad. It's too expensive to ever be worth it in a normal game. If you get it because it's cool to blow things up and the post-endgame is easy enough that it doesn't matter very much, that's fine and I've done that too, but it is never the best choice of xp investment until xp is completely post-scarcity.
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duvessa wrote:Silence is bad
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KoboldLord wrote:VeryAngryFelid wrote:Saying that Necromutation is bad is like saying Fire Storm or Silence is bad. Sure, there are some characters for whom this is true but there are some characters where it is optimal to go for those spells. Almost (?) nobody is crying about Fire Storm or Silence being a trap while we do have a tavern meme about lichform.
Fire Storm *is* bad. It's too expensive to ever be worth it in a normal game. If you get it because it's cool to blow things up and the post-endgame is easy enough that it doesn't matter very much, that's fine and I've done that too, but it is never the best choice of xp investment until xp is completely post-scarcity.
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Utis wrote:Heh! I was prepared to answer any mention of orc wizards, priests and centaurs with "these are not dangerous". (I'm trying to be memetic here.)
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VeryAngryFelid wrote:Utis wrote:Heh! I was prepared to answer any mention of orc wizards, priests and centaurs with "these are not dangerous". (I'm trying to be memetic here.)
They do have a ranged attack so they are not subject to "Speed 10 monsters without ranged attack don't exist".
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VeryAngryFelid wrote:How do you reliably deal with Orc Wizards? In my experience it's a gamble as the monster can have Confuse, Invisibility and a couple of ranged attacks in the same spell set.
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Shtopit wrote:duvessa wrote:Silence is bad
Not really, it's the most useful spell a melee character can learn after depths.
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Utis wrote:
@Sanka: I'm at best only half serious here. They're dangerous in the sense that you have to divert your attention back to the game for a couple of seconds in order to deal with them and you shouldn't make a mistake while doing so. They're not dangerous in the sense that you can deal with them very reliably. And I'm not even thinking of MephCloud when I'm writing this.
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Utis wrote:*Shrug* Same as with everything: Duck behind a corner when they spot you (and never be anywhere where you can't get to a corner in time), get them one-on-one, kill them. If your best damage dealing is at melee range, avoid giving them LoF (vanilla orcs are useful there). If you had been careless while or before you engaged them, use a consumable. I'm pretty sure you know all that.
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sanka wrote:What I do not understand is that if orc wizards are not considered dangerous, than what is? I know that crawl is not hard but these words like "dangerous" usually have some relative meaning, I mean "dangerous compared to other monsters".
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