Blades Runner
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If it doesn't fit anywhere else, it belongs here. Also, come here if you just need to get hammered.
Blades Runner
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Blades Runner
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Sprucery wrote:Depending on the point of view, it's always either insanely hard (caustic shrikes!!!) or boringly easy (elliptic's streak!!!).
Shoals Surfer
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yesno wrote:i agree difficulty overall is fine, except that sometimes early game is too frustrating if you get unlucky. auto-ID of items would probably fix this and make early game as enjoyable as the later parts but i don't anticipate such a drastic change to a fundamental mechanic happening soon/ever
Blades Runner
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dpeg wrote:I don't think so either, but you make it sound as if there hadn't been any drastic changes to fundamental mechanics whatsoever.yesno wrote:i agree difficulty overall is fine, except that sometimes early game is too frustrating if you get unlucky. auto-ID of items would probably fix this and make early game as enjoyable as the later parts but i don't anticipate such a drastic change to a fundamental mechanic happening soon/ever
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Swamp Slogger
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duvessa wrote:There haven't been any drastic changes to fundamental mechanics whatsoever.
Tartarus Sorceror
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Pandemonium Purger
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dynast wrote:Those are just content removal and nerfs, the game still plays the exact same way, so i have to agree with duvessa there.
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Abyss Ambulator
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Aethrus wrote:Complaints that the game is too easy are usually made in comparison to the most powerful races, backgrounds, and gods, who are by design stronger than other options. Minotaurs are supposed to be an easier race than Mummies, so of course a game where you should still be able to win as a Mummy is going to be easy as a Minotaur.
Swamp Slogger
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tabstorm wrote:In my view it has more to do with the fact that the "harder" races aren't really "hard" in the following sense:
As a good race, like a Minotaur, you can get away with a lot of mistakes. You can just run around the dungeon mashing o/tab without too much regard for what enemies are onscreen. Mummies are a lot weaker, and you have to engage in more degenerate gameplay to keep them alive. Strictly speaking, it's a mistake not to use the same tactics on a Minotaur, but they're really boring, so people don't do it. But, as a Mummy, you can't get away with it very much.
The issue is that correct play is largely "known", but is too unfun for most players. Most people do not want to spend most of their game luring enemies to the staircase, stone-throwing, and so on. Lots of the "interesting tactical positioning" problems can be dissolved by degenerate play. Fortunately, you can get away with not doing this sort of thing on almost all characters.
In a sense, Crawl is a game that kills by boredom!
This is why people like turncount or realtime speedruns, except the game isn't very well set up for that...
Abyss Ambulator
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Aethrus wrote:I suppose the Hypothetical Optimal Player tactics and patented scummy mummy plays might be considered degenerate, but there is a significant gap between 'relentlessly mashing o and tab until the floor is finished, repeat' and 'kiting every single individual orc back to the staircase and fighting them one by one and waiting thousands of turns for enemies to wander away, etc.' And I think good gameplay lies in that space. Not that strong races that can run through the game are bad either though. The game has a lot of room for different styles, which I like about it!
Blades Runner
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Lasty wrote:Dooooooooom clooooooock.
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agentgt wrote:I'm just curious about the people that complain the game isn't difficult enough.
Are they complaining because it is easy to win with GrBe or MiBe?
Its fairly easy to make Crawl more difficult... play more difficult species and gods.
I agree with Tabstorm on a turn count timer or something to that degree.
There are always some that will complain that have the extreme patience that are willing to take a 100k turns to win a three rune by lurking every single monster out. This is particularly the case with streakers... it is difficult but it's more of an endurance-of-concentration difficulty.
That is crawl is often difficult post lair sadly because it is a long game to play if you are afraid of loosing a character.
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all before wrote:what does doomrl do?
Snake Sneak
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dynast wrote:agentgt wrote:I'm just curious about the people that complain the game isn't difficult enough.
Are they complaining because it is easy to win with GrBe or MiBe?
Its fairly easy to make Crawl more difficult... play more difficult species and gods.
I agree with Tabstorm on a turn count timer or something to that degree.
There are always some that will complain that have the extreme patience that are willing to take a 100k turns to win a three rune by lurking every single monster out. This is particularly the case with streakers... it is difficult but it's more of an endurance-of-concentration difficulty.
That is crawl is often difficult post lair sadly because it is a long game to play if you are afraid of loosing a character.
The game is easy to the point of most of its deaths being just plain hubris.
Tomb Titivator
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tabstorm wrote: I think the end vaults in the game are quite interesting and good, so why even have the filler floors?
Aethrus wrote:Complaints that the game is too easy are usually made in comparison to the most powerful
agentgt wrote:Its fairly easy to make Crawl more difficult... play more difficult species and gods.
Reptisaurus wrote:This sounds quite a lot like saying it eventually becomes boring once you've won a dozen or so times
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dynast wrote:The game is easy to the point of most of its deaths being just plain hubris.
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HardboiledGargoyle wrote:People here seem to forget how other games exist and don't face difficulty paradigms like this.
A game that always kills you for sloppy play and always lets you win with good play sounds pretty good, and nobody would say things like "Of course deaths are going to be attributed mostly to player overconfidence". But that's not Crawl; Crawl often lets you get away with sloppy play to no detriment for 90%+ of the time.
There's also that the best play often happens to be mechanically uninteresting and more a test of hubris than skill or performance, unlike other games.
Now, I think a game can be based largely around keeping your guard up and not letting it slip, like Papers Please I suppose, and for a long time I thought Crawl was doing exactly that, and was good at it. I even imagined that the meat of Crawl was in "sifting" through popcorn.
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Aethrus wrote:dynast wrote:The game is easy to the point of most of its deaths being just plain hubris.
But what would you have instead? A game where players die not because they overestimated their ability to handle the situation, but die because even with a proper appraisal of the situation there was no way to survive it?
One of Crawl's design principles is that the player should die because of their own mistakes, that you can look at a situation where you died and see what you did wrong. Of course deaths are going to be attributed mostly to player overconfidence.
If you want to play a game where you can play everything wisely and sometimes die anyways, well, you can always play Nethack and have a random mob wave a wand of death at you. Woo-hoo, this is way more interesting, isn't it?
How exactly do you propose making Crawl 'hard' without making it so that dying is primarily due to the player's mistakes? If players don't usually die without making mistakes, the game is always going to be 'too easy' for a skilled player. If players often lose even if they never made any decisions that were clearly 'bad' then how is it that remotely fair, especially for new players?
Edit: I do want to qualify that I'm not arguing here that the game's difficulty couldn't be increased, that individual changes to raise the difficulty curve would be innately good or bad. My point is though that if your stance is "If I can win reliably by playing well, it is too easy," then you're never going to be happy with the difficulty unless the game is modified to the point that that perfect play still loses due to RNG.
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tabstorm wrote:It's more about dying to interesting mistakes vs. not-so-interesting mistakes. When you die because you take risks out of laziness even though you know the "correct" play, there is a problem.
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Aethrus wrote:But what would you have instead? A game where players die not because they overestimated their ability to handle the situation, but die because even with a proper appraisal of the situation there was no way to survive it?
Aethrus wrote:For single-player games where player performance is a matter of decision making with no element of reaction time or physical execution, every game is 'easy' once totally understood and played optimally
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Tartarus Sorceror
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dynast wrote:you dont have to understand jack shit to win a game of crawl
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Sar wrote:dynast wrote:you dont have to understand jack shit to win a game of crawl
can confirm
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