bobross419 wrote:The argument was what is more useful for killing poison resistant things... at low level... where such things matter most.
Things like Amulet of Faith skew the results wildly... It takes about 2 dungeon levels with Faith for Veh to gift you a spell that will kill poison resistant monsters.
And I'll save you some time up front... 6 games is too small a subset to determine anything, especially given the randomness of the dungeon. If you really wanted to prove anything, reduce the variables. Use wiz mode to select the gods after floor
x, select a specific weapon, etc. Since most of your arguments relied on things like "I
usually get 2 books by Lair" it would really be interesting to see how things work out with just the god gifts. Even better would be to use a bot to do the runs for you...
Furthermore... "lair 2" "vehumet would just now be starting to give me useful spells" is just plain wrong. By this point in just about every one of my games I have some decent spells and by the end of Lair I've got the mid-game locked in with Fireball/Freezing Cloud/Poison Cloud. Your statements point to having an extreme bias that will skew all of the results. Even better would be to use a bot to do the runs for you...
At any rate, I don't play a lot of casters... but here is a simple grep of all of the gifts Vehumet has given me between D:1-D:10, Lair:1-8, and Orc:1-4.
D:8 Conjure Flame
D:8 Conjure Flame
D:9 Conjure Flame
D:7 Dazzling Spray
D:9 Dazzling Spray
D:5 Flame Tongue
D:6 Flame Tongue
D:6 Flame Tongue
D:7 Force Lance
D:7 Force Lance
D:7 Force Lance
D:7 Force Lance
D:8 Force Lance
D:4 Freeze
D:6 Freeze
D:8 Freeze
D:7 Inner Flame
D:7 Inner Flame
D:9 Iskenderun's Mystic Blast
D:9 Lightning Bolt
D:9 Lightning Bolt
D:9 Mephitic Cloud
D:9 Mephitic Cloud
D:3 Sandblast
D:5 Sandblast
D:8 Sandblast
D:9 Sandblast
D:9 Sandblast
D:3 Shock
D:6 Shock
D:7 Shock
D:7 Shock
D:7 Shock
D:5 Static Discharge
D:8 Static Discharge
D:8 Static Discharge
D:5 Sting
D:6 Sting
D:6 Sting
D:6 Sting
D:6 Sting
D:7 Stone Arrow
D:7 Stone Arrow
D:8 Stone Arrow
D:7 Throw Flame
D:7 Throw Flame
D:8 Throw Flame
D:7 Throw Frost
D:10 Fireball
D:10 Fulminant Prism
D:10 Fulminant Prism
D:10 Iskenderun's Battlesphere
D:10 Iskenderun's Battlesphere
D:10 Olgreb's Toxic Radiance
D:10 Olgreb's Toxic Radiance
D:10 Poisonous Cloud
D:10 Poisonous Cloud
D:10 Static Discharge
D:10 Static Discharge
Orc:2 Bolt of Cold
Orc:2 Bolt of Cold
Orc:1 Bolt of Draining
Orc:2 Bolt of Draining
Orc:3 Bolt of Fire
Orc:3 Bolt of Fire
Orc:4 Bolt of Fire
Orc:4 Bolt of Fire
Orc:4 Chain Lightning
Orc:4 Chain Lightning
Orc:1 Delayed Fireball
Orc:1 Delayed Fireball
Orc:1 Delayed Fireball
Orc:1 Delayed Fireball
Orc:4 Fire Storm
Orc:4 Fire Storm
Orc:4 Freezing Cloud
Orc:4 Freezing Cloud
Orc:4 Iron Shot
Orc:4 Iron Shot
Orc:4 Orb of Destruction
Orc:4 Orb of Destruction
Orc:2 Ozocubu's Refrigeration
Orc:2 Poison Arrow
Orc:4 Poison Arrow
Orc:4 Poisonous Cloud
Orc:4 Tornado
Orc:4 Tornado
Lair:1 Airstrike
Lair:1 Airstrike
Lair:3 Bolt of Draining
Lair:3 Bolt of Draining
Lair:1 Bolt of Fire
Lair:8 Chain Lightning
Lair:8 Chain Lightning
Lair:7 Conjure Ball Lightning
Lair:7 Conjure Ball Lightning
Lair:8 Conjure Ball Lightning
Lair:8 Conjure Ball Lightning
Lair:4 Delayed Fireball
Lair:5 Delayed Fireball
Lair:5 Delayed Fireball
Lair:8 Delayed Fireball
Lair:8 Delayed Fireball
Lair:8 Delayed Fireball
Lair:8 Delayed Fireball
Lair:8 Fire Storm
Lair:8 Fire Storm
Lair:1 Freezing Cloud
Lair:2 Freezing Cloud
Lair:2 Freezing Cloud
Lair:5 Freezing Cloud
Lair:8 Ice Storm
Lair:8 Ice Storm
Lair:4 Ignite Poison
Lair:4 Ignite Poison
Lair:7 Ignite Poison
Lair:7 Ignite Poison
Lair:8 Iron Shot
Lair:8 Iron Shot
Lair:1 Iskenderun's Mystic Blast
Lair:1 Iskenderun's Mystic Blast
Lair:6 Lee's Rapid Deconstruction
Lair:6 Lee's Rapid Deconstruction
Lair:2 Olgreb's Toxic Radiance
Lair:2 Olgreb's Toxic Radiance
Lair:2 Olgreb's Toxic Radiance
Lair:2 Olgreb's Toxic Radiance
Lair:3 Orb of Destruction
Lair:4 Orb of Destruction
Lair:4 Orb of Destruction
Lair:8 Orb of Destruction
Lair:7 Poisonous Cloud
Lair:3 Venom Bolt
Lair:3 Venom Bolt
Lair:4 Venom Bolt
Lair:6 Venom Bolt
And the same list sorted by level...
D:10 Fireball
D:3 Sandblast
D:3 Shock
D:4 Freeze
D:5 Flame Tongue
D:5 Sandblast
D:5 Static Discharge
D:5 Sting
D:6 Flame Tongue
D:6 Flame Tongue
D:6 Freeze
D:6 Shock
D:6 Sting
D:6 Sting
D:6 Sting
D:6 Sting
D:7 Dazzling Spray
D:7 Force Lance
D:7 Force Lance
D:7 Force Lance
D:7 Force Lance
D:7 Inner Flame
D:7 Inner Flame
D:7 Shock
D:7 Shock
D:7 Shock
D:7 Stone Arrow
D:7 Stone Arrow
D:7 Throw Flame
D:7 Throw Flame
D:7 Throw Frost
D:8 Conjure Flame
D:8 Conjure Flame
D:8 Force Lance
D:8 Freeze
D:8 Sandblast
D:8 Static Discharge
D:8 Static Discharge
D:8 Stone Arrow
D:8 Throw Flame
D:9 Conjure Flame
D:9 Dazzling Spray
D:9 Iskenderun's Mystic Blast
D:9 Lightning Bolt
D:9 Lightning Bolt
D:9 Mephitic Cloud
D:9 Mephitic Cloud
D:9 Sandblast
D:9 Sandblast
D:10 Fulminant Prism
D:10 Fulminant Prism
D:10 Iskenderun's Battlesphere
D:10 Iskenderun's Battlesphere
D:10 Olgreb's Toxic Radiance
D:10 Olgreb's Toxic Radiance
D:10 Poisonous Cloud
D:10 Poisonous Cloud
D:10 Static Discharge
D:10 Static Discharge
Lair:1 Airstrike
Lair:1 Airstrike
Lair:1 Bolt of Fire
Lair:1 Freezing Cloud
Lair:1 Iskenderun's Mystic Blast
Lair:1 Iskenderun's Mystic Blast
Lair:2 Freezing Cloud
Lair:2 Freezing Cloud
Lair:2 Olgreb's Toxic Radiance
Lair:2 Olgreb's Toxic Radiance
Lair:2 Olgreb's Toxic Radiance
Lair:2 Olgreb's Toxic Radiance
Lair:3 Bolt of Draining
Lair:3 Bolt of Draining
Lair:3 Orb of Destruction
Lair:3 Venom Bolt
Lair:3 Venom Bolt
Lair:4 Delayed Fireball
Lair:4 Ignite Poison
Lair:4 Ignite Poison
Lair:4 Orb of Destruction
Lair:4 Orb of Destruction
Lair:4 Venom Bolt
Lair:5 Delayed Fireball
Lair:5 Delayed Fireball
Lair:5 Freezing Cloud
Lair:6 Lee's Rapid Deconstruction
Lair:6 Lee's Rapid Deconstruction
Lair:6 Venom Bolt
Lair:7 Conjure Ball Lightning
Lair:7 Conjure Ball Lightning
Lair:7 Ignite Poison
Lair:7 Ignite Poison
Lair:7 Poisonous Cloud
Lair:8 Chain Lightning
Lair:8 Chain Lightning
Lair:8 Conjure Ball Lightning
Lair:8 Conjure Ball Lightning
Lair:8 Delayed Fireball
Lair:8 Delayed Fireball
Lair:8 Delayed Fireball
Lair:8 Delayed Fireball
Lair:8 Fire Storm
Lair:8 Fire Storm
Lair:8 Ice Storm
Lair:8 Ice Storm
Lair:8 Iron Shot
Lair:8 Iron Shot
Lair:8 Orb of Destruction
Orc:1 Bolt of Draining
Orc:1 Delayed Fireball
Orc:1 Delayed Fireball
Orc:1 Delayed Fireball
Orc:1 Delayed Fireball
Orc:2 Bolt of Cold
Orc:2 Bolt of Cold
Orc:2 Bolt of Draining
Orc:2 Ozocubu's Refrigeration
Orc:2 Poison Arrow
Orc:3 Bolt of Fire
Orc:3 Bolt of Fire
Orc:4 Bolt of Fire
Orc:4 Bolt of Fire
Orc:4 Chain Lightning
Orc:4 Chain Lightning
Orc:4 Fire Storm
Orc:4 Fire Storm
Orc:4 Freezing Cloud
Orc:4 Freezing Cloud
Orc:4 Iron Shot
Orc:4 Iron Shot
Orc:4 Orb of Destruction
Orc:4 Orb of Destruction
Orc:4 Poison Arrow
Orc:4 Poisonous Cloud
Orc:4 Tornado
Orc:4 Tornado
Just look at how early Veh gifts you the level 1 spells... and if you are a VM you are guaranteed to get something other than Sting! And by Lair you should have at least one spell that will carry you through most of a 3-rune game.
You can check the same if you are on *nix/Mac by running the following in your morgue folder
- Code:
grep "Offered knowledge of" * | awk -F'|' '{print $2 $3}' | sed -e "s/Offered knowledge of \(.*\) by Vehumet./\1/" | egrep -v "D:1[1-9]" | sort
Finally, you need some sort of real metric to go off of... Basing things on your "gut" and "play experience" are completely objective and mean diddly squat to everyone else. Also, you are comparing gods, but the only one of your "updates" that had anything to do with a god was that you found the Amulet of Faith.... Not things that are actually constructive to your argument like "Chei gave me TD at D:3", "Veh gave me his first gift at D:3"
Sorry, I am kind of halfassing things a bit. But still, at least i'm doing SOMETHING, right?
Amulet of faith skews the results, same with finding a usable elec weapon, and getting iron as my dragon type, and getting 2 wands of heal wounds, I got really lucky in this game. But still, I have at least shown that I was able to get farther using chei rather than using Vehumet. Here are just a few examples of times that following chei saved my life:
-I ran into some undead creatures aroound dungeon level 7 or so, and had ended up having to use melee against them. If I had chosen Vehumet and gotten unlucky(I found the temple on floor 5, it had both the first alter for vehumet and chei), I wouldn't have been able to handle them. But as a follower of chei, I had sufficient melee capabilities due to his boosts in strength and dex.
-There was no source of resist poison in the dungeon aside from that artifact falchion, which was not something I could readily swap. I was saved from death by poison several times due to Chei's innate poison "resistance".
-slouch saved me from a bunch of bees.
-Chei's int boost allowed me to have BR online early, which would have saved me had I chosen to use it rather than end the run prematurely.
-(note: I could be wrong about this) high strength let me use large shields with very little effect on my spell success and minimal training(only to about level 9 or so). This may or may not have been a life saver, as you can never really tell with yakataur captains and Tier-1 elves(shields of reflection FTW).
You can't argue with that, chei proves time and time again to be the safer choice, he is more consistent and therefore more powerful. Sure, if I got lucky with vehumet I could just blow everything up, but thats the thing! Chei takes a certain variable of luck out of the game and replaces it with tactics. If used correctly, he is a force to be reckoned with.
To all new players: Ignore all strategy guides posted on the wiki, ask questions in the Advice forum, players with lots of posts normally have the best advice.
crawl.akrasiac.org:8080 <- take this link to play online or spectate.