Forest redux monster balancing (or other Forest matters)

[sgrunt]

Hi everyone - I'd like to take a moment to draw everyone's attention to my post about reviving work on the Forest, and in particular the forest_redux branch itself.

In particular, I could use help in fine-tuning the monster designs - because I don't have a strong sense of how (un)playable they are to oppose right now - but feedback on the branch design in general would also be useful.

If you're willing to play the branch and try out facing the new challenges to provide feedback, that would be especially great!

[twelwe]

if you want feedback, you should get someone to post the branch online. there exist people who are readily willing to give feedback at great length, but do not (or will not, if you make that distinction) know how to compile on their own. this is to your disadvantage, not to the potential testers. you can, of course, wait until the enchanted forest gets to trunk, but the feedback/testing, or lack thereof, may delay this addition.

[Wahaha]

I am one of the people who would test things if they were compiled for me.

[WalkerBoh]

I am one of the people who would test things if they were compiled for me.

[reaver]

Various thoughts:

Are you going to add the spriggans? (druid, defender,berserker, rider) IIRC, the spriggan mock-up vault appears around the depth to be balanced for a crypt replacement, and I'd like to see them in a branch at some point.

This is probably a Fedhas buff, and having it appear randomly might be weird. If we added the Orc Mines to a roulette, Beogh would be randomly nerfed, and maybe abandoned by players, if it didn't appear. It might not be a issue since the branch shows up late, or even become a unique and distinctive part of the Fedhas experience, but it's something to keep in mind.

If we were to compile the branch for non-coders to playtest, It would probably be best to set it up on the servers as an alternative game mode. We'd reach a lot of people who don't follow development, and we won't have to worry about different OS's or updating everybody's binaries.

You guys know that if you want to test out the branch, you'd probably need to do it in ACSII, right? Nobody is going to add a tile for a monster which might disappear within a couple days, and I'm pretty sure a branch with multiple monsters represented by "?" (The default tile if none is specified) would be unplayable. We could add a bunch of placeholder tiles (For example, various colors of circles) pretty easily, but it'd be still more work for whoever sets it up.

[pubby]

I screwed around in wizmode a bit and first impressions tell me that fauns/satyrs outclass much of the other monsters.

[sgrunt]

Are you going to add the spriggans? (druid, defender,berserker, rider)

They are present and accounted for - the current (i.e. in trunk with the disabled branch) code for them places them there, since that's what they were originally designed for.

This is probably a Fedhas buff, and having it appear randomly might be weird.

How so? The only bits here that directly influence Fedhasites are the occasional plant (and even more occasional oklob plant) that turn up; with the current way the branch rotation works, you also miss out on the piety of being able to instantly rot ghouls, zombies, etc. in Crypt if Forest turns up.

If we were to compile the branch for non-coders to playtest, It would probably be best to set it up on the servers as an alternative game mode. We'd reach a lot of people who don't follow development, and we won't have to worry about different OS's or updating everybody's binaries.

We have a lot of experimental works in progress that could use testing, and something I had considered was assembling an "experimental" branch to be placed on some servers with many of these things so that they can all be tested at once. Since I'm not a server admin, that would take some doing, but it probably could be done.

You guys know that if you want to test out the branch, you'd probably need to do it in ACSII, right? Nobody is going to add a tile for a monster which might disappear within a couple days

You underestimate ontoclasm's zeal for tile creation; he already has tiles for DracoOmega's recent Crypt additions in place

Thanks for your suggestions!

[njvack]

While I certainly can't speak for the devs, I'd say: As long as the branch is likely slated for inclusion, doesn't cause Obvious Problems, and would be easy to revert, drop it in trunk and let people play it. It's trunk; it's supposed to be subject to major change without warning

[reaver]

Thanks for the heads up, sgrunt! The reason I didn't see the spriggans was that I was looking at the commit log- it completely slipped my mind that there could already be a population function in the game.

The reason I assumed it would be a buff to Fedhas is that previous Forest proposals were very heavy on the plants theme (and I forgot that killing undead gives Fedhas piety). Right now, the forest doesn't really have any special plants in it, so this isn't a problem. Some examples of the plant proposals:
https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:monster:creatures:plants
https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=7625&p=102890&hilit=plant+proposal#p102890
https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=7625&p=102890&hilit=plant+proposal#p102890
There's probably some duplication or bad ideas there, but there might be something worth implementing.

I think the experimental branch idea sounds nice to me, although I'm not really one to say (I don't even have an online account).

Finally, thank you for putting in the new spriggan monsters. I'm happy we've finally got stabbing monsters in the game. If you want to add more, you might want to incorporate monster stealth, which is only used for invisibility right now (mon-stealth.cc).

[giygas]

We have a lot of experimental works in progress that could use testing, and something I had considered was assembling an "experimental" branch to be placed on some servers with many of these things so that they can all be tested at once. Since I'm not a server admin, that would take some doing, but it probably could be done.

This is a great idea, and would be remarkably easy to do; just run cron jobs to compile the binarys and switch out the links every day or so.

if you want feedback, you should get someone to post the branch online. there exist people who are readily willing to give feedback at great length, but do not (or will not, if you make that distinction) know how to compile on their own. this is to your disadvantage, not to the potential testers. you can, of course, wait until the enchanted forest gets to trunk, but the feedback/testing, or lack thereof, may delay this addition.

Or you can just shove it, incomplete though it may be, into trunk, thus solving two problems.
I think it is more likely people won't then can't. It's ... pretty easy to compile something.

[Blade]

I think it is more likely people won't then can't. It's ... pretty easy to compile something.

Not everyone has a background in coding, and learning to compile is more work than simply compiling something. I won't pretend that it's a lot of work, but I can honestly say right now that I cannot compile it, whether or not I could learn.

I may want to test Forest enough to learn to compile it (jury's still out on that one), but I would love to test it if it was online somewhere.

[XuaXua]

Don't forget the Forest Wyrm Bug/Patch on Mantis!

[rchandra]

Forest is live on cszo trunk now, along with some more wackiness.

[twelwe]

oh My God So Are Lava Orcs Thank You Thank You Thank You

[nicolae]

oh My God So Are Lava Orcs Thank You Thank You Thank You

three new species and a new branch all at once, i'm like, damn

[reaver]

I just want to mention I started a Crazy Yuif's Corner Thread for the new species. I don't think we should derail this thread with comments on that topic.

Right now, only CZSO has the updated Trunk, although others probably will in the next day or so. If anybody doesn't know how to play online, here's a link: http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/howto.

[prozacelf]

Will these changes be available on the RSS for those of us whom webplay is a chore? I made a CSZO account to check this out/test it but it probably won't be feasible to do regularly.

[galehar]

Will these changes be available on the RSS for those of us whom webplay is a chore? I made a CSZO account to check this out/test it but it probably won't be feasible to do regularly.

Sure. The changes has been merged in trunk which is what you get on the RSS.

[prozacelf]

I thought so. Just wanted to be sure, since it was only on CSZO currently.

[mumra]

CAO has also now had the update (CDO had it already).

[battaile]

If you update to this version with a game in progress, would it be possible to get the Forest if you haven't been in the Vaults yet, or is all that already decided/generated when you start the game?

[XuaXua]

Forest (or swamp) suggestion (back on topic): muddy area vault with sludge elf transmuters having various high level transmutation spells memorized and usable.

[Blade]

If you update to this version with a game in progress, would it be possible to get the Forest if you haven't been in the Vaults yet, or is all that already decided/generated when you start the game?

It's all generated at the start of the game.

[njvack]

If you update to this version with a game in progress, would it be possible to get the Forest if you haven't been in the Vaults yet, or is all that already decided/generated when you start the game?

It's all generated at the start of the game.

Yeah, there's an ash altar vault that tells you which lair branches you're going to get. It's neat.

[rebthor]

If you update to this version with a game in progress, would it be possible to get the Forest if you haven't been in the Vaults yet, or is all that already decided/generated when you start the game?

It's all generated at the start of the game.

Yeah, there's an ash altar vault that tells you which lair branches you're going to get. It's neat.

You have a vision of ...
Very cool.

[prozacelf]

That's probably my favorite altar vaults. I've been too busy getting the new species killed off to actually test forest yet, but I will restrict my future comments to the Forest.

[Igxfl]

Ah, so now there are 27 species and 27 backgrounds. Well done...

[Blade]

All right. I just got through forest as an xl20 Dj"Su" (DjHe); here are my first impressions: Satyrs and Fauns are terrifying (in a good way); unfortunately, they're also everywhere. They're interesting monsters and they're fun to fight occasionally, but after my seventh or eighth pack, they got really dull. The other monsters in Forest are maybe underpowered; the H packs, at least weren't ever really a threat. That might be just the case for healers, though; TeCj had potential to be scary that went unrealized because I just pacified them. I barely noticed forest drakes as I tabbed through them.

The dryads were by far my favorite monsters in the branch--threatening without being terrifying, and rare enough that I could appreciate them instead of growing bored.

This is more of a stylistic thing, but it feels really weird to suddenly see a meadow spawn in V, and the tomb entry stuck out from Forest also. It seems much better-suited for late D (it could still exist in rotation with Crypt, even if they didn't appear in the same place). The Tomb thing, meanwhile, can be solved with new Tomb entry vaults.

[Grandiloquent Gentleman]

Also Spriggian Assassins are terrifying, in a not quite so good way, but that was probably my terrible MR. Also the enchantress has Banishment, whoops.

I liked it, but it's way harder than crypt.

[mumra]

Ah, so now there are 27 species and 27 backgrounds. Well done...

Quick be quiet in case someone hears you before they go and remo --- oh wait, too late.

[reaver]

For those confused by mumra comment, Sludge elves were just removed from Trunk:

Remove Superfluous Elves.

For every playstyle, you can find another race which can do it better:
their main schtick, unarmed transmuter, can be done far better by merfolk.
Such a transmuter has no synergy with necromancy (Lich Form being an
utility that doesn't provide means of dealing damage by itself), and
there are better earth elementalists as well.

We already have two other elven subraces: Deep Elves who nearly define
conjurers, and High Elves, who make pretty distinct medium armour
hybrids. Sludge Elves, on the other hand, had no niche on their own.

[rebthor]

Guess I had finally better win a SE something on .12

[XuaXua]

Was hoping they'd rename Sludge Elves, maybe to Mountain Dwarves or something.

Me? I'd like to hear more heroic sounding species names.

[Sporkman]

Is it just me or are Forest Wyrms knocking me back multiple times in quick succession? I get that they're supposed to be hard to melee, but I think it might be a bit excessive.

[Annonith]

So I finally managed to visit Forest, and here is my summed up reaction:

  Code:

A Spriggan enchanter comes into view.

OH F*** YOU TOO CRAWL

Playing as LOBe. So no spells. Also slow. Also used all my wands on orb spiders in Spider Nest. Also wielding Vapiric Axe so not really in mood to using wands.
Screw
Those
Things

[crate]

i'm pretty sure berserkers have a way to get a whole lot of mr really easily, and if you do that spen enemies don't even look dangerous

[snow]

i was hoping they'd remove mf instead

Why would you want this?

Anyway the forest is too hard (at least compared to vaults and crypt).

[Sporkman]

i was hoping they'd remove mf instead

Why would you want this?

because Mf is really just a completely uninteresting version of SE (removing both would be fine too of course)

Personally, I'd like to make Mf more interesting than outright remove it. As is, it's at least more unique than SE was, so it has something going for it.

[Synaptic]

So, I made my way through the Forest on a GrMo of Chei. Wasn't able to clear the whole thing, but did get all of the early levels and cleared the final room/vault on the last level thanks to a scroll of magic mapping. I know not every branch is meant to be beatable by every character, but dryads made my life absolute hell. They resist polymorph easily, and I could neither catch up to nor run away from them. They kept the forest attacking me constantly, so in order to deal with them I'd have to teleport or empty out a combat wand like lightning or fire. Apart from that, I think it was pretty balanced for me, though I did have some close calls due to my mr not being high enough to always resist fear (despite having an mr ring) so I was stuck waiting it out (since I can't run as a Chei follower). Regardless, I think it's a good addition that spices up the variety of the Vaults, despite not (imo) having enough uniques. I thought the final vault was well done in particular (with the Enchantress) though I only had to slouch twice to kill her and most of her entourage (it's moments like that that make me not want to dump Chei).

[Blade]

despite not (imo) having enough uniques.

Forest has 3 area-specific uniques, in addition to whatever others spawn there. How many more do you want?

[Galefury]

GrMo of Chei

Chei is terrible if you cant attack at range. Seriously. Terrible. If you choose not to use any of the easily replenishable options for ranged combat, while worshiping a god that pretty much requires you to be able to kill stuff without moving much, that's your own fault.

[Synaptic]

despite not (imo) having enough uniques.

Forest has 3 area-specific uniques, in addition to whatever others spawn there. How many more do you want?

I guess it didn't feel like that to me, I only remember getting two (including the final one).

[EvilAshe]

I find Forest hard to read (at least in tiles), though I have a similar problem with Shoals so it may just be me. Beyond that, ran through it with a Minotaur Fighter sans any spell casting and it was just the impossible to pin down Dryads that really caused unfun problems (as opposed to the satyrs which were fun problems).

[nicolae]

Speaking of dryads, how does their movement through trees work? Can they move through them unimpeded, or can they only go one square into a cluster of trees?

[MrPlanck]

I like Forest, but the mysterious -tele effect around the enchantress means I will never ever return to F5. I couldn't find a message or status to indicate how I got it. Too bad, really, it's a nice branch other than this -tele nonsense.

[dck]

The enchantress has dimension anchor and she used it on you.

[MrPlanck]

The enchantress has dimension anchor and she used it on you.

Ahh good to know, thanks! I have fought her many many times and never had this happen. Seems awfully powerful, and more dangerous than any endgame content. Needless to say, I will never seek her out again.

[dck]

Enchantress has been changed a lot since forest came to be, basically she now halves your MR, blocks tlocs, uses mass confusion and slaps your shit.
At least she has lower EV and more HP now, so trying to hit her is less of a nightmare.
Of course the rest of the god damn branch is full of annoying, mostly harmless monsters who kite you or summon or push you around or haste summoners or just fuck this branch.