Suggestion: slightly more enemy variety in lower dungeon

[WildSam]

Also maybe don't let them drop XP.

This is practically screaming: you wouldn't get any XP for kill. It doesn't mean you shouldn't kill it anyway.

But idea of slow and deadly monster, which recklessly follow you can be interesting, I believe.
I consider main point of this creature is forcing player to explore more in hurry, without much time to rest. Like timed vault without vault. But with monster.
So i got couple ideas:
1. Monster should be invunerable. Because slow and vunerable = dead after long and tediuos "fight". It leads to two variants.
a) Monster can't leave some fininte part of dungeon. Like one single level or some given part of level (may be cool for some vault)(also makes monster ideologically close to stationary). May be branch or portal vault. Because unkillable monster which will haunt you for rest of the game is basically not a monster, but game mechanism (and then should be named and positioned correspondingly (you can consider hunger as monster which one-shot you if you spent much time without consuming special kind of finite resource)).
b) It should be defeatable in some non-trivial way, say by getting some exp or killing some dudes or finding something special (I want to play a game wth ya, Adventurer. Find orb of whatever, which hidden in this branch before this invunerable 4-speed thing with 50-30-20 melee, which always know your position and capable of using stairs on it's own will reach ya). May be by exploring some given number of non-explored tiles.
2. Monster should get some mechanism to prevent player from pillar dancing it for rest (because it's tedious and effectively disable monster).
Like every 10 turns you spend without exploring new tiles it's speed increased by 1. Or may be leave some trail where monster moves, and which gives huge speed buff to monster's movement on it.

Numbers are made up and easily adjustable.

[red_kangaroo]

Why invulnerable? It could rather be nearly indestructible, like diamond obelisk.

Diamond golem with 10 000 HP, very low speed, high MR and immunities to nearly everything. You still can kill it and you'll get huge bunch of exp for that kill, but it's better to simply run for your life.

Or it could be crystal golem, with statistisc as above, but on death ot can drop crystal shard, which can be scroll of enchant armor'd to crystal plate mail.

[pubby]

but it's better to simply run for your life.

Optimal play involves picking up a polearm and wasting 15 minutes of your life.

[gofftc]

...golem...hitting you on sight with magig..

I fell the need to explain a little deeper, as it stands there it may seem silly.
All golems could/shold hit you on sight, accordingly to thier appropriate element.
Many can think of stone/eatht/clay golems. Still theese are huge masses, who just may throw thier fist at you literarily.
Other golems made of thunder or clouds of miasma could do more devistating attaks.
Think of the stone golems as boring footsoldier template with a fist projectile that does d d damage.
I don't know how original this and fitting this is to compared what's planed.

A very other drastic idea would be: scratch gargolyes/LO and rename them to golems; and let you select you element at the start, oh just and to make it impossible, bound it to a random god, because you know, someone had to build you sometime...

[red_kangaroo]

Or something like Emperor Lich (that has nothing in common with golems):

Undead spellcaster and so on, but these Emperor Liches have their phylacteries. EL can wear its phylactery, or the phylactery can lie on the gorund near lich's spawn. While un-ID'd phylactery appears as normal amulet, but it has some special properties: When the lich is killed, it will respawn a bit later exactly nine tiles away from its phylactery (just outside player's LOS). The lich also know where its phylactery is at any time and he can teleport near its phylactery at any time, so if the player picks the phylactery and retreats on another level, the lich can all of the sudden appear just a few tiles away.

The lich can be truly killed by destroying its phylactery (throwing in to lava).

The phylacteries could also have egos like randart amulets, with one use of scroll of ID revealing fake randart name and its egos and second IDing telling you that it is phylactery, not an amulet. The recurses itsef should be common, but other egos should be rather good, to the point that player could consider keeping the phylactery for its egos even though he would have to kill the EL again and again.

[Arrhythmia]

Why invulnerable? It could rather be nearly indestructible, like diamond obelisk.

Diamond golem with 10 000 HP, very low speed, high MR and immunities to nearly everything. You still can kill it and you'll get huge bunch of exp for that kill, but it's better to simply run for your life.

Or it could be crystal golem, with statistisc as above, but on death ot can drop crystal shard, which can be scroll of enchant armor'd to crystal plate mail.

The diamond obelisk is actually, literally indestructible these days. It's impossible for anyone to kill it.

[khalil]

Or something like Emperor Lich (that has nothing in common with golems):

Undead spellcaster and so on, but these Emperor Liches have their phylacteries. EL can wear its phylactery, or the phylactery can lie on the gorund near lich's spawn. While un-ID'd phylactery appears as normal amulet, but it has some special properties: When the lich is killed, it will respawn a bit later exactly nine tiles away from its phylactery (just outside player's LOS). The lich also know where its phylactery is at any time and he can teleport near its phylactery at any time, so if the player picks the phylactery and retreats on another level, the lich can all of the sudden appear just a few tiles away.

The lich can be truly killed by destroying its phylactery (throwing in to lava).

The phylacteries could also have egos like randart amulets, with one use of scroll of ID revealing fake randart name and its egos and second IDing telling you that it is phylactery, not an amulet. The recurses itsef should be common, but other egos should be rather good, to the point that player could consider keeping the phylactery for its egos even though he would have to kill the EL again and again.

You could probably turn Boris into a unique EL. However, the XP from an EL should not be given untill the plycatery is destroyed, to prevent grinding.

[brendan]

A "diffusion" AI algorithm was being worked on for this but nothing came of it yet.

Replacing the AI for crawl is a really tall order.
I'll probably get back to it after I rewrite wrath.

[reaver]

Since pubby didn't metion it himself, pubby added a Moth of Nihilism patch to mantis.

[Ramc]

Since pubby didn't metion it himself, pubby added a Moth of Nihilism patch to mantis.

Say what you will about National Socialism Moths, at least it's an Ethos.

That said, he should also put in Fundamothilists that radiate a proselytizing aura that temporarily converts you to another random deity while you are in the radius. If a Moth of Nihilism and a Fundamothilist come in sight of one another they make a beeline for each other, and explode like two orbs of destruction hitting each other.

I am as serious as a heart attack.

[TeshiAlair]

So, as far as lower dungeon variety goes (to bring things back to a more general level) I recall when the variety was even more generic. It was a pleasant/horrible surprise the first time I saw slime creatures merge, and the new ugly things were interesting as well (though only the brown ones really result in a change of behavior). I also happen to enjoy that some of the monsters earlier in the dungeon show up in more dangerous forms, I think it makes the dungeon feel more like a cohesive branch. So, it seems like there are three directions to take:

1. Make nastier/more interesting version of older monsters.
Death rat- Can leave a trail of miasma behind it. This miasma resurrects corpses the rat walks over. (Concept- discourage hallway fighting)

Screeching bat- Playing off the previously mentioned idea of the banshee, this one is rendered even more dangerous by being batty and thus potentially waking up monsters even further away.

2. Improve the remaining "boring" monsters
I'd love to see yaktaurs have more yak-like behavior- Have them flee when hurt, with the others in the pack providing "cover fire" Note- They may already do this, I've never encountered yaktaurs without running or two-shotting them.

Also, more ugly thing differentiation would be nice. Red ones could run faster, white ones slow you down, purple ones have a ranged spine-throwing attack, etc.

3. Add new monsters
Personally, I think there are enough monster types in the lower dungeon with the occasional unique/OOD/branch monster showing up. However, I really like a number of the suggestions in this thread as well, particularly the Moth of Nihilism.

[khalil]

@TeshiAlair
While most of your ideas are good, I think improving yacktars is a bad idea for two reasons:
First: it would make them much more annoying to kill.
Second: Yacktars are basicly just slower centaurs. They plain old shouldn't exist. While I understand wanting a ranged threat for lower D, having it just be an existing monster with higher stats is just lazy.

[Lasty]

(Yaktaurs) plain old shouldn't exist. While I understand wanting a ranged threat for lower D, having it just be an existing monster with higher stats is just lazy.

By this logic, there should only be one melee monster in the game. Which one would you keep while eliminating the other 50? Stronger versions of previous monsters isn't necessarily a bad thing, particularly when there is at least one difference (different weapon/ammo type and different speed, in this case). The actual problem is that while early dungeon has a variety of threats, late dungeon has little variety of threats. Simply eliminating yaktaurs wouldn't make the end-game more diverse; it would make it less diverse.

Edit: fixed quote.

[tasonir]

One other thing that bothers me when people suggest removing yak packs is that they are a critical source of bolts for anyone using crossbows. If they are made less frequent, either other bolt users should be added, the remaining yaks should spawn with more bolts, or bolts should spawn on the ground more often. Plenty of options, but just try to keep the level of bolts in game roughly equal.

How about a late D monster who is similar to the deep elf master archer, but with crossbows? A single monster, not a pack, and continues to use crossbows even in melee range. Large Kobold master arbalestier! Yes, that's a real word. Apparently arblaster is an alternative spelling of it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arbalest

Definitely want at least 10 move speed, but how about a slower attack rate? maybe something like a 12 move speed, fire at 150%?

[crate]

the thing that bothers me when people suggest removing yaktaur packs is that they are great enemies

[tself55]

What do people think about giving a golem a sort of Leda's Liquefaction effect, but make them immune to the slowing of it? Make it say a 5 tile radius effect that the golem can target at the player location. (If this is too much for a whole enemy archetype, maybe a unique which uses this flavor)

[Bim]

Yaktaurs are awesome enemies, I don't think there is any reason to get rid of them at all, just that they shouldn't be every third enemy.

[Sarfus]

Banshee
A female spirit that wanders the dungeon, wailing for those that are about to die. Often thought to be an omen of death. Banshees wander the dungeon, emitting a wail every 50 turns or so, with a loudness somewhere between a regular shout and the Shield of the Gong. Not even remotely challenging on her own, but her wailing means that by the time you encounter her she's probably got half the level's monsters surrounding her.

What about a Banshee that wails every time you kill a non-summoned monster? Rather than making it a shout effect they could permanently summon a shade or ghost of the monster at the Banshee's location. The player would be made aware of the Banshee's presence on the level in the same manner as with a Jelly's slurping text (or including the positional information from portal entrances?): "You hear a distant mournful wail".

Player has the choice of seeking out the Banshee whilst avoiding making as many kills as possible or facing a powerful army of spectral summons later on.
Combine with disorientating/hexing wail attacks for more fun?

[khalil]

I dislike yacktars largely because they were made up for the purpose of the game, and if someone is going to make things out of whole cloth, they should probably be more creative. Having Orc priests and Elf priests doesn't bug me, because those races are expected parts of a generic fantasy universe. Yacktars were made up for the purpose of the game, and whereas most things made up for the purpose of the game (Ugly things and the new vault guards for monsters, lava orcs and deep dwarves for player races) have some kind of interesting mechanic to go with them, yacktars are just centaurs with a new haircut.

[Lasty]

I dislike yacktars largely because they were made up for the purpose of the game, and if someone is going to make things out of whole cloth, they should probably be more creative. Having Orc priests and Elf priests doesn't bug me, because those races are expected parts of a generic fantasy universe. Yacktars were made up for the purpose of the game, and whereas most things made up for the purpose of the game (Ugly things and the new vault guards for monsters, lava orcs and deep dwarves for player races) have some kind of interesting mechanic to go with them, yacktars are just centaurs with a new haircut.

You do realize that "I have an arbitrary negative aesthetic reaction to this" isn't a good argument for changing it, right?

[rebthor]

I was thinking that banshee could be interesting if it screamed when it saw you and everything treated it like it was marked (as opposed to the way that the vault sentinel works). Scream could cause sonic damage the same way that screaming sword does. It should probably be speed 11 at least so you can't easily ditch it and it could potentially lead to some nice emergent gameplay if you're willing to burn a teleport scroll since everything will now be bee-lining to the banshee while you're now on the other side of the map.

[khalil]

Yes. It's a bit of a knee jerk reaction. I have a special hatred for palette swaps, and I'm not really sure why.
Feel free to ignore me.
Also, a few lower D ideas:
Some kind of amphibious monster (Deep ones?) that pop out of water when you get within one tile(like current swimming monsters), but can then follow you back onto land.
Give boggarts variable spell lists (like monster wizards) so that some use necromancy, some use conj, etc. Anything that can do lots of damage really.
Necro boggarts:
Bolt of draining
Torment
Dispel Undead
Animate Dead (Largely filler to keep the player back while the boggart casts torment)
Conj boggarts:
Orb of Destruction
Iron shot
LCS
It fits with their theme of "Does lots of damage if you don't kill them quick."
Also, I love the idea of a banshee.

[SirDinkus]

So I've just gotten into Dungeon Crawl, and Roguelikes in general, but I love reading all of these suggestions. If I may point out something I've noticed so far...It's that most all monsters chase you. Slowly or quickly they come for you. Which makes sense, but I think some monster types that don't move or won't leave a given area would spice things up considerably. This would create an area of denial, which players would either have to enter and deal with said monster, or find an alternative route around. No kiting them. If there is an incentive to kill this mob then the player would be more likely to not walk away. Maybe there isn't another way around and that's all there is to it. Tough nuts.

Perhaps a mob that is immune to projectile attacks or everything unless you're in it's designated "area". This could open up all sorts of interesting derivatives. Maybe a truly invincible baddie that can't leave a given area and you just have to rush by it or blink past it. It wouldn't be an issue until you find something you do want to flee from and you end up sandwiched between an oncoming horde and a chained deity that you just spent the effort squeezing around. Perhaps kiting mobs to this invincible baddie could be a valid strategy if it was made to be hostile to other mobs.

I just think it would create an moment of choice and occasional moments of panic that would be unique, and it seems a simple concept compared to many of the suggestions I've read on this thread so far. What do you veterans think?

[reaver]

So I've just gotten into Dungeon Crawl, and Roguelikes in general, but I love reading all of these suggestions. If I may point out something I've noticed so far...It's that most all monsters chase you. Slowly or quickly they come for you. Which makes sense, but I think some monster types that don't move or won't leave a given area would spice things up considerably. This would create an area of denial, which players would either have to enter and deal with said monster, or find an alternative route around. No kiting them. If there is an incentive to kill this mob then the player would be more likely to not walk away.

There are tons of monsters that can't move in Crawl and basically all of them are terrible. As soon as something becomes slower than you it almost ceases to exist, because the constant escape possibility means there's no danger. I'm surprised you haven't met the infamous Oklab Plants yet. I don't think I'm quite communicating how horrible stationary monsters are - they're basically the worst kind of monster.

Perhaps a mob that is immune to projectile attacks or everything unless you're in it's designated "area".

I find this is a reasonably interesting proposal. We already have monsters with perma-repel_missiles, and silent specters, but nothing that flat out says "You must be within this range to hurt me." I'm not sure that would be easy to program, though, particularly with cloud spells, smite targeting, penetration, and bouncing bolts. Note that this would have to chase you to work.

[gofftc]

About the optional stuff:
In a normal 3 rune game, there should be enough optional stuff (like -get 10 more runes, etc.).
So cut off areas kinda exist if it's just the winning.

I don't visit D so often, quiet lesser lower D, but for all the annoying yaktaurs
and boggarts and electric eels; they're there to annoy you and they are good the
way they are - think how you would play without them - in fact think how you
would play, if all the annoying things would get removed over time?
Right. You wouldn't, you would Tab to your win and stop playing.

More interesting: Where should this variety in D come from?
More strong monsters? A mirrorfight against yourselfe? (but this already is there - ppl love Mara).

Geting variety, we need a (new)monster-basetype / or reworking some existing one;
and slap whatever flavor on it we want.
More the question, what is missing right now?

When I hear of variety I think of lots of monsters that can do stuff and
keep you adapting and thinking. Take ugly things + merging slimes and
give it random speed 70-130% + some other gimmick.
This is NOT a REAL proposal, more a concept.
This can work with golems + ugly things, hell, even clouds and balls of energy.
Get a EGA ball with 16 colours for what it's worth:

This leads to the problem: what if D:27 is packed with say ice and poison mobs.
Player arrives as IE
Player may haveing a hard time to overcome one more obstical.
This can lead to frustration.
And just pack one or two of everything in there still is bad, because
then there is the one or other version of the monster that gives you a
especially hard time. (Plus it would look just like a colouring book).

Even just some fast growing jungle you would have to whack against like
a poor mans dig could add some variety in D. (Think of it like one-hit-plants,
they may regrow in t). Adds to your escape options in a good and bad way (may block
you too).

+1 Banshee

[mumra]

Perhaps a mob that is immune to projectile attacks or everything unless you're in it's designated "area". This could open up all sorts of interesting derivatives. Maybe a truly invincible baddie that can't leave a given area and you just have to rush by it or blink past it. It wouldn't be an issue until you find something you do want to flee from and you end up sandwiched between an oncoming horde and a chained deity that you just spent the effort squeezing around. Perhaps kiting mobs to this invincible baddie could be a valid strategy if it was made to be hostile to other mobs.

I sort of have a design for something like this, by implementing a monster version of the "darkness" spell. So it's surrounded by a LOS black spot which you can't see into or shoot into, and only when you get inside the dark area can you see the monster and therefore hurt it.

[khalil]

@murma
What happens if you cast one of the cloud spells? Do the clouds cease to exist when they enter the darkness, or can they hurt the monster?
Also, what about tornado? Hitting monsters in the darkness makes sense for it, but that would make it even better than it already is.

[jejorda2]

You wouldn't be able to target inside the darkness, because you can't see there. Maybe I just don't get spellpower high enough, but in open areas I can only get a space or two past the targetted square with poison and ice clouds. If these things don't wander into corridors, they're pretty good. Maybe they should summon things that come out of the darkness. Like shadows.

[TeshiAlair]

I think it would be fun to have a (very occasional) "arena" type monster. Like say a Fire Giant that could summon a ring of fire around LoS so you'd either have to risk a lot of damage going through the cloud or slay them.

[Tiber]

I think it would be fun to have a (very occasional) "arena" type monster. Like say a Fire Giant that could summon a ring of fire around LoS so you'd either have to risk a lot of damage going through the cloud or slay them.

There's a holy monster with a similar mechanic called an Ophan which creates holy flames on the floor tiles immediately surrounding you. It's really rare though.

[Bim]

Woahhhhh I had no idea that monster existed. I've literally never seen one - I MUST FIND IT! Holy zig?

[jejorda2]

I don't think Ophan are exactly what he was suggesting.

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[1010011010]

I sort of have a design for something like this, by implementing a monster version of the "darkness" spell. So it's surrounded by a LOS black spot which you can't see into or shoot into, and only when you get inside the dark area can you see the monster and therefore hurt it.

how about a monster which creates thick fog around it thus blocking LOS, it should be easy to implement and intuitive for a new player as fog and clouds are common.

[Siegurt]

Perhaps a mob that is immune to projectile attacks or everything unless you're in it's designated "area".

When I first read this I had a completely different take on it than most of the replies I saw. What occurs for me is this:

A monster spawns, starts wandering, you encounter it, and can only kill it *if you find the spot where it spawned and are standing in that area when you kill it* Sort of like a "standing on a vampire's grave" thing.

It would definitely make for a challenging kind of creature one that follows you around, attacks you, and that you *can't kill* until you get to a designated spot on the map. (I'd think the spot would be marked, and perhaps a trail would lead you towards the 'kill zone' (a'la Ballistomycete) maybe would show up briefly whenever you hit it) If it fled when heavily damaged from the kill zone, it'd be challenging as all get out to kill the thing (Since chasing it would just result in you leaving the kill zone)

Anyway it'd be an interesting mechanic, regardless of theme and implementation details.

[khalil]

You wouldn't be able to target inside the darkness, because you can't see there. Maybe I just don't get spellpower high enough, but in open areas I can only get a space or two past the targetted square with poison and ice clouds. If these things don't wander into corridors, they're pretty good. Maybe they should summon things that come out of the darkness. Like shadows.

Not being able to target doesn't mean anything if you spawn a cloud outside the darkness and the monster walks into it, or if you cast tornado and just kill everything on the screen.

[mumra]

Not being able to target doesn't mean anything if you spawn a cloud outside the darkness and the monster walks into it, or if you cast tornado and just kill everything on the screen.

Hopefully someone will implement the cloud nerf soon and we won't have to be limited by such design constraints.

[mumra]

how about a monster which creates thick fog around it thus blocking LOS, it should be easy to implement and intuitive for a new player as fog and clouds are common.

Yeah but it's not as cool a theme as a mysterious moving patch of blackness The danger with clouds is they can be easily displaced by other clouds, but are also likely to help the player just as much as the monster that's creating them.

[XuaXua]

Isn't this fog thing what that new crypt monster in trunk does?

[Arrhythmia]

That'd be miasma which it barfs out on dying, not fog.

[SirDinkus]

Ok. I have another idea that so far as I know, isn't implemented (although I can't say I've seen everything or even beat this accursed thing yet).

Maybe a will-o-wisp sort of enemy, that attracts players attention or just flees when spotted. If it has something valuable the player might have incentive to chase it. Give it high speed and evasion and a tenancy to lead players near traps or strong mobs. Other more difficult variations might take pot shots at you or teleport you randomly. Just a thought.

[SirDinkus]

Oh, and this is half question and half suggestion. Is there an enemy that mimics the player? As in becomes a clone of you? Because if not, that would be an awesome unique encounter. Having to think of all the stuff you yourself can do and then anticipate what your double might do. I've seen videos of people reaching the orb and of the mobs that typically guard it, and throwing in a named mob as a guardian would be pretty cool. And having to fight yourself for the orb seems appropriate somehow. And it would be a different experience for everyone. There wouldn't be any way of preparing in advance except to think about how your character can beat itself.

[jejorda2]

Maybe a will-o-wisp sort of enemy, that attracts players attention or just flees when spotted.

Avenging (or alleviating) a loss is a more motivating than taking risk for a reward. How about it marks you like an alarm trap, then runs away? Killing it removes the status. Or maybe it gives you a chance of developing bad mutations every few turns, and the mutations stop appearing when you kill it. This is kind of like the new flayed ghost, which is wonderful, except with the added fleeing aspect. Blinking fits in well with the will-o-wisp flavor.

To fit in with the "lost traveller" flavor, will-o-wisps could cause all staircases to take you to other staircases on the same level until you kill them.

Is there an enemy that mimics the player?

Mara is the unique that creates player clones. Very dangerous.

[SirDinkus]

I see. I've never met Mara...sounds like a bitch though if she can create more than one clone at a time. Do they copy you exactly or are they weaker than you?

And the will-o-wisp ideas sound fun. Really any enemy that runs and gives you a reason to chase it sounds like an interesting dynamic. But if it does something negative to the player and there isn't anyway for that specific player to catch and kill it (not fast enough, no ranged capabilities) then you should at least be able to flee from it. Maybe it can't leave the floor it's on?

[1010011010]

I see. I've never met Mara...sounds like a bitch though if she can create more than one clone at a time. Do they copy you exactly or are they weaker than you?

And the will-o-wisp ideas sound fun. Really any enemy that runs and gives you a reason to chase it sounds like an interesting dynamic. But if it does something negative to the player and there isn't anyway for that specific player to catch and kill it (not fast enough, no ranged capabilities) then you should at least be able to flee from it. Maybe it can't leave the floor it's on?

she creates an illusion copy of your character (a copy of you at the time of it being cast), similar to a player ghost, limited to one at a time which even eventually times out and i believe can be abjured. a copy can also travel up stairs with you, unlike a player ghost. A challenging unique at any level we probably don't need anymore copying.