Formicids (Was: Dwants)

[duvessa]

I assume the main reason people (dck, duvessa, Wahaha) are against -Tele over stasis is because Haste exists as a spell?

No and I'm not sure how you even got that impression

It's already been mentioned countless times in this thread, and in a great deal of other threads: haste exists. [...] If you do not consider this interesting then I am thoroughly confused as to why you think -Tele is interesting.

What?

Potions of speed are much, much more important than the spell.

[Siegurt]

Currently up to the rune lock or so, their fast leveling gives them about the same max hps as an average race (More levels, less hps/level) "Two hander plus shield" is less interesting to me than "can throw large rocks and wear body armour"

Escape options which *do* work with a Fo, other than built-in shafting:
Swiftness
Passage of Golubria
Boots of running
Passwall (Yes it *does* take a long-assed time, but you can get away with it, it's about the same as teleport in that regard (although you can't do stuff in the meantime, that'd be a nice upgrade for it, actually))
Leda's liquifaction (Admittedly this kinda sucks)
Flight (in the right situations)
Summoning things to get in the way
Raising dead things to get in the way
Banishing yourself to the abyss
Nets
Slow
Confuse other
Needles
Several god abilities including;
Lugonu's bend space, and banish self
Chei's Step from time
Zin's imprison
Several gods' abilities to summon allies (for getting-in-the-way possibilities)

Escape options that don't work:
Blink, haste, teleport.

Now while those three are the most plentiful, flexible and powerful of escape options, self-shaft is hardly the only option.

Yes, stasis is a drawback much more than a benefit (there are some cases where it's a positive, they are generally outweighed by it's negatives) and on the whole it's a challenging race, but it's hardly unplayable, and I find it easier at least than Felids, Mummies, and probably (for myself at least) Ghouls and Octopodes.

Personally I find that with good play I can reliably get about as far with Formicids as I do with any race, but I am forced to alter my expectations about which tools to use. rPois- has killed me maybe once or twice, but typically it's just something I have to be aware of, and change my targeting priorities accordingly.

[crate]

I don't think stasis sounds like a fun thing to have as a permanent mechanic at all (but I agree that -Tele sounds even sillier). Then on top of that they have horrible hp so I have had no desire at all to even try one.

[WalkerBoh]

They have shafting. Which is something you don't want to use but it's still there for when you have to. That's why not being able to shaft in branch ends is so bad and does make it completely unfair…

Also again, if they're judged too weak for a race with these restrictions, it's the hp and apts that need to be improved, instead of removing the one thing that makes them different from other races.

That's true with regards to shaft, but it's just not enough. If shaft was instantaneous, maybe. Or if you could still walk around until it kicked in like with teleportation. But as it is now, I think it's more or less unusable as a panic button.

I dunno if I'm quite convinced that better hp and apts would really fix it, though I do think -2 hp apt is pretty absurd considering the other restrictions. But I think the route of "since it can't escape, make it strong enough it doesn't have to" is as valid as "give it at least one way of escaping".

[nago]

I lost two great Fo (Fi and VM) in Shoals:2 and Snakes:5 in a very stupid way, so I can't comment properly yet about end-game and so on, but my impression too is that -2 hp is quite too rough combined with the statis thing - removing teleport and especially haste is probably the harshest thing in the game, I don't see why the race couldn't be more beefier to counter balance a little that.

Plus, has really switfness activated for FO? That would be a really silly thing imho.

[Bloax]

Mixing "low hp" with "stasis" is a terrible idea, and the fact that it's supposed to be "a challenge race" doesn't change that.
(And in case one would wonder why, then it's because some fights - like Zot:5 - require the risk of biting off more than you can chew.
Except now you can't spit it out, oh and the threshold of how much you can chew is much lower. And shields don't change the fact that fireballs hurt. Enjoy!)

But since the general consensus is that I'm inherently wrong, there's no point bumping their hp aptitude up a notch and maybe rising their miserable AC bonus.

[Zammy]

I lost two great Fo (Fi and VM) in Shoals:2 and Snakes:5 in a very stupid way, so I can't comment properly yet about end-game and so on, but my impression too is that -2 hp is quite too rough combined with the statis thing - removing teleport and especially haste is probably the harshest thing in the game, I don't see why the race couldn't be more beefier to counter balance a little that.

I mostly get the impression when reading the posts that everyone have got too used to play with same tactic: with lost and lots of escape methods (and especially haste) in use.
And since stasis removes most of then people get shocked.
Yes, formicids are a challenging race. But challenging and hard to play doesn't equal bad.
Even -2HP + stasis + -pois doesn't mean unplayable.

These are of course a matters of opinion. Some will continue to hate formicids while some will continue to have fun playing with them.
devs can't please everyone. In this particular matter, I'm pleased and have to thank devs for an interesting race.

edit: corrected few typos

[Lasty]

Formicids of Zin are actually pretty decent. Still a bit in the "challenge" spectrum, but with Vitalization on, you are only vulnerable to non-poison damage, confusion, mislead, torment, corrosion, and item destruction. If you can get clarity and preservation, that list goes down to just non-poison damage and torment, and the latter basically doesn't appear in a 3-rune game. Zin also gives you two very strong escape options to help with dangerous situations: Sanctuary and Imprison. I found this playstyle to be only slightly more challenging than average.

I'm sure Formicids are harder under most other gods.

[red_kangaroo]

I don't agree that stasis is wrong as a formicid mechanic. It can be seen as bad for them, but bad as valid drawback, not something to be removed. And they really do for it by their four arms. I mean, plate armour + shield + two-hander axe + large rocks = Formicid with capital F. They are hard, but not too much hard, just challenging.

[snow]

Does the -rpois + stasis race HAVE to be a challenge race? At the very least their aptitudes could be buffed a little.

Wins: 3xFoBe 2xFoFi 2xFoGl 1xFoAK 1xFoAM 1xFoAr 1xFoCK 1xFoFE 1xFoHe 1xFoIE 1xFoNe 1xFoTm 1xFoVM 1xFoWr

Looking at that, I don't think it would hurt to buff their magical aptitudes a bit since they are more successful at tabbing than casting. Give them a small speed boost to make them slightly better at escaping would be nice too.

[Sandman25]

Please don't make Fo closer to Fe. Their inability to run away is their most distinctive feature.
I think Fe are poor casters because their inability to run away makes it hard to rely too much on MP.

[Bloax]

Cheicasters are very good casters, but they're comparably terrible because they're turrets that can't run away. (Zot:5 is loads of fun:DD)

I see no reason why formicids shouldn't take up this role even without the god.

[pubby]

I used shafting to escape from Wiglaf (he has haste). I think it might be most useful in situations like that; you see an enemy you know you can't take on, but can't run away. If you do it before getting beaten up, your chances of surviving the destination are good.

This is exactly how it should be used.

confusion

Vitalisation protects against confusion too!

Wins: 3xFoBe 2xFoFi 2xFoGl 1xFoAK 1xFoAM 1xFoAr 1xFoCK 1xFoFE 1xFoHe 1xFoIE 1xFoNe 1xFoTm 1xFoVM 1xFoWr

Looking at that, I don't think it would hurt to buff their magical aptitudes a bit since they are more successful at tabbing than casting.

That statistic isn't useful. Look at human wins for example:
11 games for * (human cv>0.13 won): 3x Fighter, 2x Artificer, 2x Berserker, Necromancer, Hunter, Assassin, Venom Mage

has really switfness activated for FO?

No. It's banned for them, currently.

[Mankeli]

has really switfness activated for FO?

No. It's banned for them, currently.

This is actually not true, strictly speaking. You cannot memorize the spell so you cannot cast it BUT you can benefit from the "swift" status effect if you get it from someplace else -other than the spell that is. You can clearly see this when you wizard cast it with (z) in wizard mode. What this means in practise outside of wizard mode is that you can still get the "swift" effect via velocity cards and you do benefit from it. That means that you can probably get it from other sources too, if they exist, like Xom or something.

Version: 0.14-a0-1029-g9530a8b

[galehar]

You cannot memorize the spell so you cannot cast it BUT you can benefit from the "swift" status effect if you get it from someplace else

That sounds like a bug. There's no reason why stasis would block the spell but not other sources of swiftness.

[Mankeli]

You cannot memorize the spell so you cannot cast it BUT you can benefit from the "swift" status effect if you get it from someplace else

That sounds like a bug. There's no reason why stasis would block the spell but not other sources of swiftness.

Mantised: https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=7786

[dpeg]

I don't think stasis sounds like a fun thing to have as a permanent mechanic at all (but I agree that -Tele sounds even sillier). Then on top of that they have horrible hp so I have had no desire at all to even try one.

I respect crate a lot, and he clearly knows what he is talking about. However, at this stage there is an impasse: if the species is unfun for some but fun for others, then it may be best to leave things alone for a while. I myself find them fun because of the permanent stasis -- if tweaks are necessary, I'd opt for aptitudes, maybe the HP rate, the rP- if need be but not the species-defining stasis.
I don't really see a problem with this: there are a number of species that are not universally considered "fun" (which would be an impossible goal anyway) and still add to the game. In a case like Fo, I believe that stronger diversification via the stronger handicap works best for them.

[Bloax]

The permanent stasis is indeed a good challenge due to how different it is from everything else, but the very average weapon skills combined with a +0 shields aptitude doesn't exactly make up for what is supposed to be the reasoning behind the stasis (twohanders with shields). Because not only do big weapons require a bigger skill investment than their smaller, one-handed counterparts - shields also require a hefty investment to be very good. (you ought to know about the hp apt already)

So not only are they a fragile race that can't blink or teleport (which are the two most reliable and available ways of escape), they are also bad at their niches;
What with the -2 throwing aptitude and the array of +0\s for both weapons and shields despite being the only ones who can wield twohanders with shields.
if i'm being stupid here then it's because i'm barely awake, but god damn the least you could do is make them get a point of strength every 2 levels

[Sandman25]

1) I was unpleasantly surprised to see Fo cannot use GC and GSC with shield. Was it changed recently?
2) Fo is very fun to me, digging + stasis makes it interesting to lure enemies, stairdancing becomes very important too. Fo are not too weak, both FoHu's which I played reached Lair and as far as I understand it is considered to be the hardest part of the game.

[Sar]

They never could.

[dck]

Fo apts are good because they allow for a lot of very different play styles without feeling like you're crippling yourself because you're not getting a gmace and a shield or whatever else positive apts in weapons skills would encourage.
They definitely don't need any more str, also their dex is shit (Gr tier or not I haven't checked) which is bad and could use some help, but I assume it's so they can at least carry around a large rock or two.

Also what minmay brought up about allowing them to wield big weapons with one hand screwing with weapon selection is true. It's nothing extreme but for example other than as a cheap switch for a stabby guy lbl are completely overshadowed by M&F for Fo in each and every field, eg demon blades being turned pointless by dire flails.

[duvessa]

They get exactly 1 more dex than Gr.

[Mankeli]

It seems that at least evilmike and chris are in favor of letting Fo learn/use swiftness spell after all: https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=7786

Thoughts?

Also my two cents: I have one Fo win, a FoFi of Chei with 5 runes. I also have a level 17 FoHu save. I got very good stuff like two artifact rings with +6 slaying each and a vampiric great mace via weapon re-branding so the game actually felt pretty easy. I played without spells as a challenge condition.

The shafting seems to work just fine. It makes a lot of noise and takes time but after you get to the next level, you can probably dig a nice strongpoint from which to fight the mobs. Use it before you are half dead. The branch ends are more problematic but Chei's abilities helped there. I don't know what could be done to help formicids in like V:5 where digging and shafting are both out of the equation (if swiftness spell is going to be made possible then literally every non-trog character who has found it should probably get it by v:5, however, I guess almost all should get it anyways no matter what the race at least before zot). I'm not saying anything should necessarily be done at all.

Poison vulnerability is as stupid as poison but the devs have promised to make poison not-stupid (or at least less stupid) so the problem will probably go away.

The two-handed + shield thing does take a lot out of weapon selection. It doesn't help that much early game but by some point in Lair, great mace + shield combination felt pretty overwhelmingly strong compared to any one-handed weapon with a reasonable chance of being found.

For blasters and the like, Fo doesn't have much to give besides good levelling aptitude and ok apts that are actually pretty good in that they do allow flexibility. I'm not sure how much I'd enjoy playing FoCj, for example. Not that I play much blasters anyways. But I do enjoy playing Fo fighters and hunters. Overall, I think the stasis mechanic is nice and the escape tools provided are also sufficiently good (excluding undiggable branch ends). I recognize the weapon selection problem but it hasn't bothered me that much (at least no yet). So I do hope that Fo are the in next release!

[duvessa]

Swiftness really isn't significantly more broken for Fo than it is for other races, it should definitely be allowed.

[galehar]

elliptic has acted swiflty on the matter.

[archaeo]

Wow. How long does the new swiftness give you slow movement? That's one powerful nerf.

[galehar]

Anti-swift is the same duration as swiftness: 12 + random2(power)/2

Now Swiftness has two stages, of equal duration. In the first stage it decreases movement delay by 25% and in the second stage it increases movement delay by 50%. This has the effect that the spell is speed-neutral over the two stages combined if you are moving the entire time

[araganzar]

Having a lot of multi-race experience and a Formicid win under by belt now, I now feel barely qualified to comment on this interesting new creation.

First, the Stasis element alone to me fulfills the necessary and sufficient criteria for this race to be included. It is a unique mechanic that drastically alters player choices and fundamentally changes the way you play the game. I think the design decision here to leave it identical to the stasis amulet was good - simple and consistent mechanics are less confusing to players.

The rPois- mechanic is annoying. It is interesting early game but mid-late game it's just an equipment nerf. You have to give up ring slots, choose different body armour, etc. To me, this reduces rather than expands player choices - I found myself sticking to rPois chain rather than try different armours, which was frustrating and boring. I would rather you still be rPois- with no rPois, but only need one source of rPois to be rPois+. I think this is fair given (a) the existing challenge of the race, (b) the fact that rPois++ is not generated randomly or in any fixed items while rF++ and rC++ are found in both, and (c) poison being an admittedly flawed mechanic that is ill-suited to being a major and long-term part of a race's strategy.

The only other thing I find vexing is the -20% hp apt. I would rather see this taken to -10% or eliminated. This is a race where your %hp/%mp threshold for running/bailing is set extremely high. Starting off fights effectively at 70-80% hp already compared to other races' full health makes for a very challenging game. And challenge is fine, but I believe this will greatly restrict the combinations which are successful. It makes a casting focus much harder, and without heavy channeling Fo already at a big disadvantage because the ability to bail and reload is so limited. I took a FoVM to Spider but I did not find rPois and I simply could not tank Arachne.

I think Fo is well balanced for a challenge race. I would like to see a +1 apt on M&F and Staves, but I think that would make the decision to go with a high-skill weapon like axes even less likely. The ability to 2h wield and use a shield is very powerful - and the penetration of large rocks gives them almost effectively smite targetting. It would be interesting to give Fo casters a similar advantage (such as wielding 2 multiplier staves). 5 Be and 4 Fi wins, and all caster races with single wins or unrepresented.

[siprus]

Btw I'm not sure if it has mentioned before but formicids should be able to drink potions of speed. Sure the satiation gained is minor, but is still theoretical usefulness.

[dck]

Potions don't give nutrition anymore out of blood and porridge.

[Tiber]

Potions don't give nutrition anymore out of blood and porridge.

That was reverted:

  Code:

5d474e4 | Adam Borowski | 2013-12-28 22:40:33 +0100

Give everyone the same nutrition for drinking blood.
Ie, 1000 for fresh blood, 800 for coagulated.

Also, add back the missing 40 nutrition that used to be granted for drinking
a potion.

[Kate]

That commit only touches blood, potions other than blood and porridge don't give nutrition.

[dck]

@Tiber: Right, no it wasn't. What that commit says is that now blood give you the 40 nutrition drinking any potion used to give, which was missing from blood potions in the past.

[Tiber]

Whoops. In my defense, that statement was easy to misinterpret. The commit that removed potion nutrition was kind of a shame though, because drinking potions for nutrition saved my character's life one time.

[WalkerBoh]

Bumping this. I haven't played Fo in a while, but saw that the digging mechanic was changed recently, so I decided to try another one. And I have to say that while I strongly disliked playing Fo before, now it is really fun. Haven't made it very far (still haven't found Lair as of D:10 in this game), and I did find rPois scale mail on D:4, but the new digging really improves the overall playability of Fo. Now the combination of stasis and digging is actually very meaningful, as you can easily control your positioning and LoS of enemies to be able to make up for the lack of most escape options.

I will say that I still strongly, strongly disapprove of giving Fo rPois-, as it adds unnecessary tedium to the game in the form of 5-mashing without adding much in terms of tactical or strategic depth to the game. It's especially bad because it affects the player the most on the first few levels where poisonous enemies (that are faster than you, I might add) are abundant and can't be quickly killed, and where at the same time the player has the least tools to deal with the poison vulnerability (limited !curing, high chance of not finding rPois). I think stasis is already a significant (and interesting) enough conduct by itself, and now that the new digging gives them a really fun signature feature, the only thing holding Fo back from being a really good addition to the game is the poison vuln.

But anyways, the point of this post isn't to complain about rPois-, I mostly wanted to give some good positive feedback on how much more fun I'm having with Fo since the digging changes.

[Fergy]

Change exoskeleton to 1 damage reduction (help with weak poison and squishiness). If this is too strong make it 1d2-1. It's also a throwback to their dwarven roots.

Add penalty for wielding a 2-hander + shield. I suggest: Weapon delay = Base Delay + base shield penalty.

Example: Triple Sword + Buckler
19 + 1 = 20
Min delay (7) at skill 26

Example: Triple Sword + Shield
19 + 3 = 22
Min delay (8.5) at skill 27

Example: Triple Sword + Large Shield
19 + 5 = 24
Min delay (10.5) at skill 27

Note: Still cannot use shield with GSC/GC. Shield skill does not reduce shield penalty.

[Velikolepni]

While both FoHu of Zin/Trog and FoAK of Lugonu work quite alright, I think that their HP should be buffed to at least normal values. Furthermore, considering their penalties, the fact that they can use a shield and a two handed weapon doesn't make them too powerful and there is no need to impose additional penalties on that.

[WalkerBoh]

Thank you, devs!

With those changes, I really think Fo are a great addition to the game. Would love to see them make the cut for 0.14, along with VS.

[Quazifuji]

I approve of those changes. Poison weakness was more annoying than interesting, and stasis already made surviving interesting enough without low health. Super-fast leveling was fun, but seems like a good place to nerf them. They've already got enough interesting gimmicks with the stasis, digging, shafting, and four arms, they didn't need to be overcomplicated beyond those features.

[treerex5]

They made it.

[MrPlanck]

I gave Fo a serious try for the first time since the changes, and approve of the modifications. In fact, after you get past the early game they seem quite formidable. I am playing FoFi with great mace + shield and it is quite strong so far. I recently completed my first Chei win and think I learned a lot from that which I have been able to apply to Fo.

[reaver]

In fact, after you get past the early game they seem quite formidable.

and if Sif Muna hated magic she would be Trog.

They made it.

Several old posts in this thread were made after Formicids went in.

[MrPlanck]

In fact, after you get past the early game they seem quite formidable.

and if Sif Muna hated magic she would be Trog.

Yes, not the most enlightening comment from me, as it is true across the board. Thank you for your constructive feedback.

[Patashu]

I gave Fo a serious try for the first time since the changes, and approve of the modifications. In fact, after you get past the early game they seem quite formidable.

Formicidable?

[Happylisk]

I 15 runed a FoAK during the tournie (http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/Happylisk/m ... 162142.txt) and had a great time. My fav thing about the species is that it simply made me play better.

[chessplaya]

It seems like part of the reason Formicid mages have trouble is because being able to wield a 2-handed weapon with a shield only helps melee chars and Formicid mages don't get a similar benefit. Would it be reasonable to let Formicids wield a normal weapon but get the benefit of a staff in the background (maybe in place of a shield)? I don't think that they should be able to swing 2 weapons at once, but a mage wouldn't want to do this anyway. Should they be able to use 2 staves at once, or would that be overpowered?

[and into]

Characters that cast a lot also benefit a ton from two-handed + shield. Staves and M&F in particular both have good two handed options that do not require huge experience investment. For Fo, a dire flail is exactly the same as a demon sword that uses M&F skill, except you are essentially guaranteed a dire flail will drop by D:7 or D:8, and it is pretty common to get one with a good brand early on. Lajatangs are rarer but better, and training for those also leaves open the possibility of using elemental enhancer staves for melee.

[chessplaya]

Why would characters that cast a lot want to hit dangerous things with a 2-handed weapon--isn't that what their spells are for? Given the choice I think I would wield an enhancer staff+shield instead for the spell bonus or faster channeling, unless I found a 2-hander giving great resistances (or I am playing some sort of hybrid, like skald or transmuter). I've never used enhancer staves for melee, but my understanding is that players do this only after they can reliably cast whatever level 9 spells they want.

[crate]

Why would characters that cast a lot want to hit dangerous things with a 2-handed weapon

well 2-handed weapons are better at most skill levels than 1-handed weapons, for one thing (halberd outdamages trident at any skill level, dire flail outdamages 1h maces at any skill level (ok it's basically the same as dwhip/eveningstar), lajatang outdamages basically every onehander, etc.)
so it's better to hit things with a 2-handed weapon instead of a 1-handed weapon, if everything else is equal (which it is, for formicid, and this is not true for other races)
and with how common dire flails are now....

if your argument is "why would characters that cast a lot want to hit ... things with a weapon" then that's a different topic

[and into]

Why would characters that cast a lot want to hit dangerous things with a 2-handed weapon--isn't that what their spells are for? Given the choice I think I would wield an enhancer staff+shield instead for the spell bonus or faster channeling, unless I found a 2-hander giving great resistances (or I am playing some sort of hybrid, like skald or transmuter).

Well I was talking specifically for Fo, you have good low skill investment 2-handed options that you don't even have to give up a shield for.

More generally, backgrounds are starting points for characters and the way skill levels increase exponentially as they go up often means that branching out becomes an appealing option for most characters (the only question is when to do so, and what to branch out into). Unlike some other fantasy games, DCSS does not impose a strict boundary between magic-users and fighting. And most two-handed weapons are better than most one-handed ones. The point about low skill investment to hit mindelay was simply to emphasize that Fo have really strong two-handed options that won't cost a lot of experience to get very good with, and thus needn't impede your magic-related skill development much at all.

I've never used enhancer staves for melee, but my understanding is that players do this only after they can reliably cast whatever level 9 spells they want.

If you've never used enhancer staves in melee, from what did this understanding derive?