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|ID||Category||Severity||Reproducibility||Date Submitted||Last Update|
|0007786||[DCSS] Bug Report||minor||have not tried||2013-11-26 11:24||2013-11-27 22:07|
|Status||resolved||Product Branch||0.14 ancient branch|
|Summary||0007786: Swiftness status effect is NOT blocked for Formicids from other sources than the spell|
|Description||You can get the "swift" status and, benefit from it, from velocity cards and probably from other sources as well, if they exist, such as Xom. The swift effect itself is not blocked, its seems that you are only forbidded to learn the spell. You can, for example wizard cast it (z) in wizmode and still get the effect (unlike haste which is blocked even with wizard casting). Galehar suggested this is a bug.|
|Tags||No tags attached.|
Formicids just have plain old stasis, right? Swiftness isn't blocked by that, it just represents you moving faster "naturally" with help from the wind. Stasis isn't supposed to block fairly mundane effects... you're not mucking around with the flow of time or anything like that (which I guess Haste, Slow, and Paralysis do).
There is a bug here, though: formicids should not be blocked from memorizing swiftness.
|evilmike: Technically you are right, but I think the issue warrants discussion. The problem is that if Swiftness is allowed, then players will feel shoehorned into learning the spell, making formicids look less different than they would otherwise.|
edited on: 2013-11-26 18:14
The original formicid patch made stasis block swiftness. That aspect was reverted later. And in my opinion, going back and blocking swiftness again wouldn't help.
The amulet description, by the way, explicitly says it blocks "magical and physiological effects that would otherwise teleport, slow, haste, or paralyse its wearer".
It does not mention what I guess you could call "external forces" that alter your speed. Therefore, stasis does not block the slowing you get from being in shallow water or being encumbered, it does not block being trapped by throwing nets, and in the case of swiftness, it does not affect manipulating the wind to allow you to move faster. Overall, I'd say stasis does a pretty good job at limiting itself to its description. Finesse and berserk step outside that a bit, but I'd say the former is still a "physiological effect" that partially hastes you, and the latter at least includes full haste (and slowing) as part of its package.
Swiftness on the other hand falls completely outside the scope of "stasis" and adding it to that would be confusing unless swiftness itself is re-flavoured (and would need to lose its air component). And, special-casing formicids to not be allowed to use it is just poorly thought out, I think it's good that crawl at least tries not to be an inconsistent mess (even though it doesn't always succeed in that... compare what amulets of clarity block, for example).
|I completely understand the description of stasis and that it shouldn't deny Swiftness. My point is that the role of the amulet (an item you choose to wear) and the ability/restriction set of a species do not necessarily coincide. In other words, I believe that Formicids are better off without Swiftness, regardless of what Stasis says. This can surely be debated, but I am not going for a discussion about Stasis' description.|
Fully agree with evilmike.
What stasis really doesn't need: Even more exceptions and special cases. It's pretty hard to communicate in standard form already.
If at any point in time DwAE is seen as only feasible dwant due to swiftness existing, that still is a better situation than e.g. DD god choice gives right now. I just can't see that happening.
|Agreed with evilmike too. If Formicid is to keep the swiftness ban, it needs a better explanation than "Fo' stasis is special and prevents swiftness".|
edited on: 2013-11-27 17:07
"The problem is that if Swiftness is allowed, then players will feel shoehorned into learning the spell, making formicids look less different than they would otherwise."
How is this not a problem with every other race? Swiftness is almost certainly the most powerful spell for its level in the game. If I find Swiftness even though it is by far my most-disliked spell in Crawl from a design standpoint I still basically always learn it because it is so powerful.
I don't see a reason for Fo specifically to block swiftness.
> Swiftness isn't blocked by that, it just represents you moving faster "naturally" with help from the wind.
The game doesn't actually mention how swiftness works. I assumed that the effect was magical because it's caused by a magical spell.
> unless swiftness itself is re-flavoured (and would need to lose its air component)
Here are some options:
"This spell magically enables you to run as fast as the wind."
"This spell increases your aerobic ability, allowing you to run faster."
> I believe that Formicids are better off without Swiftness, regardless of what Stasis says.
I agree. A big idea behind Formicid is "use unconventional escape," and allowing one of the most conventional and boring escape spells is bad design.
> It's pretty hard to communicate in standard form already.
Why can't the game list exactly what it blocks in the description? That would clear up so much unnecessary confusion.
pubby: It looks like this battle is lost -- the others seem to think fairly strongly about allowing Swiftness for Formicids. Probably best not to stem the tide.
However, I believe the underlying problem (and Swiftness is a huge problem, because it encourages cheap kiting) are our charms in general. I don't have a plan as of yet but I am confident that something should be done about them. This will then hopefully also address Swiftness and Formicids.
|The swiftness changes I just made hopefully make swiftness on formicids less objectionable now (and I enabled the spell for them), as it is no longer a simple "minihaste while moving" effect. So I'm resolving this issue.|
|2013-11-26 11:24||Mankeli||New Issue|
|2013-11-26 17:35||evilmike||Note Added: 0024505|
|2013-11-26 17:46||dpeg||Note Added: 0024506|
|2013-11-26 18:10||evilmike||Note Added: 0024507|
|2013-11-26 18:14||evilmike||Note Edited: 0024507|
|2013-11-26 18:14||evilmike||Note Edited: 0024507|
|2013-11-26 19:00||dpeg||Note Added: 0024508|
|2013-11-27 08:16||chris||Note Added: 0024509|
|2013-11-27 16:38||galehar||Note Added: 0024511|
|2013-11-27 17:06||crate||Note Added: 0024512|
|2013-11-27 17:07||crate||Note Edited: 0024512|
|2013-11-27 18:52||pubby||Note Added: 0024515|
|2013-11-27 20:01||dpeg||Note Added: 0024516|
|2013-11-27 22:07||elliptic||Note Added: 0024517|
|2013-11-27 22:07||elliptic||Status||new => resolved|
|2013-11-27 22:07||elliptic||Fixed in Branch||=> 0.14 development branch|
|2013-11-27 22:07||elliptic||Resolution||open => done|
|2013-11-27 22:07||elliptic||Assigned To||=> elliptic|
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