The Tavern

Since we're already working on the ID-game, I figured this is a way to add a lair of difficulty to it.

Make Scroll of Enchant Weapon I/ II / III, and Scroll of Vorpalise weapon target a weapon in your inventory. Now instead of just having recharge/enchant armour (with ID-scrolls ruled out early), you have 7 possibilities for an item-selecting scroll. Further, it'll be nice for when you have the scrolls identified to not have to switch to the weapon you want enchanted at the time.

Of course, I'm acting under the assumption that the ID game as it stands is "trivially simple". If that assumption is wrong, or if it's right in an "ain't broke don't fix it" kind of way, then obviously no need for this.

-AHMAD

I'd kind of like to have this just because I'm a moron and always end up reading (already-id'd) weapon scrolls when I have my throwaway blowgun or something equipped. Probably I could better solve this by just paying attention to what the fuck I'm doing.

Code:: autoinscribe += scroll.*enchant:!r

BlackSheep wrote:
Code:
autoinscribe += scroll.*enchant:!r

Yeah, I've got several autoinscribes in my config, but that doesn't really address the issue I'm talking about here since I'd probably just click through the prompt. Basically what I do is "ok, time to enchant weapon" then realize after the fact that I had my 'b' slot equipped for whatever reason. Arguably the added pause might make me take extra time to verify, but probably not.

In any event, it happens less and less often the more I play so I don't really care that much either way, but this proposal is something that I've thought would be a nice addition at various times pre-dating this thread, albeit for different reasons than laid out in the OP. Also it seems to add consistency, since this is the way Ench Armour works. (and I get that Ench Armour has to work that way because more than one armour slot, but I know early on I screwed this up with Ench Weapon scrolls just because I didn't know which scrolls prompted for items and I assumed that Ench Weap would)

The amount of words I've written here is making this seem like I care much more than I do. I don't care either way, why did I type all this.

The idea was actually suggested by jpeg absolutely ages ago: https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:item:magical:scrolls

...Along with getting rid of EWI and EWII to simplify things.

It does actually seem a bit inconsistent that EA allows you to enchant non-equipped armour but EW doesn't give the same flexibility.

Battaile hit the reason on the nose, armor enchantment requires a menu since you (usually) have multiple armor slots. It's a short step from there to showing all armor in the inventory.

I'd be in favor of the change if scrolls identified on use.

mumra wrote:The idea was actually suggested by jpeg absolutely ages ago

Note that it was also back when missiles were enchantable. Having to wield them was a bit weird and I think this was supposed to address that.

galehar wrote:
mumra wrote:The idea was actually suggested by jpeg absolutely ages ago

Note that it was also back when missiles were enchantable. Having to wield them was a bit weird and I think this was supposed to address that.

Regardless of the reason behind the issue for what jpeg suggested it, its a nice lair of confirmation to make sure the intended item gets hit by the scroll - assuming the character has viable items on hand.

For what it's worth, I just ran into another unrelated situation where it would be useful.

While playing a Felid, I came across a treasure trove that asks for a +4, +4 demon whip.

I have found the whip and enough EWI / EWII scrolls to make it happen, but since I can't target the item and I can't hold the item... it's not possible to do.

cgilbert wrote:For what it's worth, I just ran into another unrelated situation where it would be useful.

While playing a Felid, I came across a treasure trove that asks for a +4, +4 demon whip.

I have found the whip and enough EWI / EWII scrolls to make it happen, but since I can't target the item and I can't hold the item... it's not possible to do.

Interesting situation ... we could always prevent troves from requiring weapons you can't wield, if this needs to be prevented.

mumra wrote:
cgilbert wrote:For what it's worth, I just ran into another unrelated situation where it would be useful.

While playing a Felid, I came across a treasure trove that asks for a +4, +4 demon whip.

I have found the whip and enough EWI / EWII scrolls to make it happen, but since I can't target the item and I can't hold the item... it's not possible to do.

Interesting situation ... we could always prevent troves from requiring weapons you can't wield, if this needs to be prevented.

I think it more has to do with the fact that even if the Felid was to stand over the weapon, it can't enchant it. There's other reasons to changing Enchant Weapon Scrolls to target your inventory instead of your main hand presented in this thread as well; there really is no reason to stick with the status quo here.

Davion Fuxa wrote:
mumra wrote:
cgilbert wrote:For what it's worth, I just ran into another unrelated situation where it would be useful.

While playing a Felid, I came across a treasure trove that asks for a +4, +4 demon whip.

I have found the whip and enough EWI / EWII scrolls to make it happen, but since I can't target the item and I can't hold the item... it's not possible to do.

Interesting situation ... we could always prevent troves from requiring weapons you can't wield, if this needs to be prevented.

I think it more has to do with the fact that even if the Felid was to stand over the weapon, it can't enchant it. There's other reasons to changing Enchant Weapon Scrolls to target your inventory instead of your main hand presented in this thread as well; there really is no reason to stick with the status quo here.

Huh? My suggestion is that if you're a felid, troves shouldn't require enchanted items that you're unable to wield -- if this even needs fixing. It's still possible for a felid to find a +4 whip although they are rare. I don't see why what I said has anything to do with standing over the weapon.

And there's always a reason to stick with the status quo: it's zero effort. If it doesn't need fixing then it's not worth effort instead of zero effort. If someone can demonstrate cases that would gain from a change, and if that gain outweighs the effort to make that change, and if someone is prepared to go to that effort, then it might be worth doing. But it's a pretty good idea to first establish exactly what the real gain is.

Making it so that Enchant Weapon Scrolls (Perhaps Vorpalize Weapon too) act more like Enchant Armour Scrolls is enough of a gain on its own in that: It would help prevent people from wasting Enchant Weapon Scrolls on the wrong weapon, it makes Enchant Weapon Scrolls more like Enchant Armour which adds a little bit more to the identification game, and it resolves the Treasure Trove issue.

Barring the above happening, making it so that the Felid can wield weapons in their Teeth for Enchantment purposes or even for Sandblast (holding stones, Tukima's Dance, and Sticks to Snakes would be a beneficial way to adjust the code.

There is no real reason to keep the current code and then think about ways to spend your time coding related code since one more reason for changing it is that it really has no real competing reason against one of the two above changes.

Davion Fuxa wrote:It would help prevent people from wasting Enchant Weapon Scrolls on the wrong weapon

Instead you'll waste more scrolls in the Id game, won't make any net difference really.

Davion Fuxa wrote:it makes Enchant Weapon Scrolls more like Enchant Armour which adds a little bit more to the identification game,

This adds interface consistency which I think is the strongest point in its favour.

Davion Fuxa wrote:and it resolves the Treasure Trove issue.

This depends whether you define that as an "issue" or a "downside of playing a felid".

Davion Fuxa wrote:Barring the above happening, making it so that the Felid can wield weapons in their Teeth for Enchantment purposes or even for Sandblast (holding stones, Tukima's Dance, and Sticks to Snakes would be a beneficial way to adjust the code.

Felids can already wield stones and arrows (and chunks), so it's just weapons that are the problem. And see above; but yeah I don't see anything that's greatly gained by restricting felids from Tukima's. On the other hand I actually really hate the interface of wielding random things, I would personally much rather get rid of non-weapon wielding and make all these things target the inventory, but that's a much bigger change and I'm not sure how it would overall affect the balance of certain spells, cursed items, etc.; and for sublimation it's a bit tricky to manage the interface of whether you self-sublimate or not.

Davion Fuxa wrote:There is no real reason to keep the current code and then think about ways to spend your time coding related code since one more reason for changing it is that it really has no real competing reason against one of the two above changes.

Hmm... maybe you don't realise the time and effort involved in coding what might sound like minor things to people who haven't looked at crawl's code. Anyway I was not even disagreeing with any of the original principles, just pointing out that if changing the scrolls is too complicated, infeasible, or just undesirable, there is a far, far simpler way we could fix the trove issue. Code doesn't write itself, and there is very little here that I'd actually call "broken" about the status quo.

Davion Fuxa wrote:There is no real reason to keep the current code and then think about ways to spend your time coding related code since one more reason for changing it is that it really has no real competing reason against one of the two above changes.

There is one actually.
Crawl's code is a horrible mess, as to be expected of a project worked on by three separate groups over a period of several years. (First Linley, then Linley's dev team, then the current dev team.)
As a result, small changes (like giving xp in a random skill on levelup) can be nigh impossible, even though similar changes (like increasing random skill on levelup) can be easy.

mumra wrote:
Davion Fuxa wrote:and it resolves the Treasure Trove issue.

This depends whether you define that as an "issue" or a "downside of playing a felid".

Troves are about sacrifice. There is a choice: should I sacrifice this good item for a chance at a better one? Sometimes, you're asked for an item you have no use for and then the choice is obvious, but it's pretty rare. Usually, troves ask for really good items. A felid has no use for weapons and EW scrolls, so troves asking them for it completely uninteresting. So if anything needs fixing, I'd rather prevent troves from asking weapons from felids.

Sacrifice 6 Scrolls of EW III

@galehar
In that case, troves should also not ask mummies for potions.
Had that happen to me once. The hardest part was trying to figure out which potion was healing.

Another possibility for troves would be to make it require the same type of item that's in the trove, if you can't use it, then you don't need what's in the trove

I know it's spoilery and reduces the risk that troves present, but I don't think it overly-compromises the intent of a trove.

Then you'd also have to remove the horn of geryon from the list. You don't give up anything to get into the trove that asks for that. Vestibule isn't harder than normal 3 rune areas, and the horn only needs to be used once then dropped...

I think the rune/horn troves are actually really interesting since they encourage doing those areas sooner (as helping your character now with the trove contents is better than helping it later, yet of course you don't want to die.).

trove contents being a complete mystery is also better than knowing the type, I think.

I don't think I have ever found anything in a trove that was worth the risk of dying by doing a branch end before my character was ready. I don't think such gear exists.

right, but the trick is doing it when 'ready' instead of waiting for 'overpowered'.

also troves like 4x good wand, +11 vampiric triple sword, etc. would arguably be worth the risk even when a bit less than 'ready'.

rchandra wrote:I think the rune/horn troves are actually really interesting since they encourage doing those areas sooner (as helping your character now with the trove contents is better than helping it later, yet of course you don't want to die.).

trove contents being a complete mystery is also better than knowing the type, I think.

But imagine if you got a trove asking for the slimy rune and inside were more runes! That would be so easy to get a 15 runers.

There should be a Xom vault, filled with mimics and the item you used to get in.

The Tavern

Proposal: Enchant Weapon Targetting

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