The Vaults: monster set

[mumra]

In the spirit of resurrecting more age-old discussions, I'd like to talk about monsters in the Vaults branch. Since the layout changes, V now has a really unique and interesting feel, but this is slightly let down by the fact that as things stand, and with the exception of V:5, the random monster set is identical to the same levels of D. (As in, literally the same mons_dungeon_* functions in mon-pick.cc). I think what has made me think about this again is seeing all the great new content in Abyss and how it has made it into a truly unique, terrifying and flavourful place all in one stroke (along with the layout changes there of course).

For reference the dev wiki contains some ideas: https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:dungeon:branch:vaults#monster_set

And there have been some previous threads on the subject (probably more but they're difficult to find because the forum search says that "vaults" and "monsters" return too many results...):
Vaults Monster Set Revamp
Alternate Vaults Monster Set: The Unwilling Guards

At this point I definitely believe that V needs a set of entirely new monsters. To illustrate this I'll quote evilmike on the wiki:

I'd like to propose a small thought experiment. Suppose (in some alternate univertse) that the Vaults is a new branch in development, rather than an already existing one. Under this alternate version of crawl, all the same branches exist, except for the Vaults (which is planned to be added in some future version). What do you think the branch would wind up looking like, in this case?

If someone proposed "here's this new branch with a really cool layout, it uses identical monsters from D" then of course that would be shot down. As far as I know, V is now the only branch that doesn't have unique monsters. Vault Guards don't even begin to cut it - their only unique property is the manner in which they are encountered, and I have always found them trivial compared to the rest of V:5.

The wiki page contained a proposal to separate the current monster set into D/V or at least tweak weightings to favour one or the other. There is a very valid objection to this: it dilutes the variation of D. There are suggestions that yaktaurs are already a signature monster of V, but since the weightings are identical this is purely perception and I think it comes down to which branch you tend to do first. Personally I see yaktaurs as a D monster and a natural progression of the centaur line.

Before we propose any new monsters I think it's important to establish the theme. The reason the Abyss monsters work so well is because that branch is already rich in flavour and backstory. With the Vaults I'm not so certain ... the name to me implies it's an ancient museum of sorts, with all kinds of treasures and ancient evils locked away in the titular vaults. Who built them? Perhaps an ancient race or society lost in time, maybe whoever created the Orb itself; perhaps draconians, perhaps humans; maybe a mad wizard. Establishing a consistent theme for the monster might provide the player with clues to the answer to this question, without ever explicity stating it (which IMO is the best way for story to emerge).

For this reason I personally loved the idea of artificial / animated life but this has raised many objections. But there is something compelling about the idea that the long-gone vault builders left magical and everliving creations in place to guard their masterwork. I can remember the first time I encountered Vault Guards thinking that they were some form of robot or animated armour, until I saw the corpses. I still there's some magical way in which they've been eternally preserved and kept in formation.

Drawing on all of the above, I think there is a theme emerging. Just as the Abyss evokes a sense of raw chaos, terror and wonder in equal measures: perhaps the Vaults should produce feelings of age, loss, and loneliness, eternity, and the forgotten?

With this in mind, we look at the Vaults as a place locked away and untouched by mortal beings for centuries. It seems logical that only a limited number of things could survive and/or still be a threat in such a place:

1. "Exhibits"

By this I mean monsters (specified in subvaults) that are locked away in the vault rooms themselves. The theme is that a magical stasis field has been put in place on the rooms to preserve the contents until they are opened or otherwise disturbed. These will be regular monsters from other branches, but it would be good if they tended towards rare monsters or special encounters.

2. Vault Guards

I am thinking along the lines of: "Long ago, this human's body was fused into a suit of armour and magically bonded into endless vigiliance; in the process, it was eternally preserved until the release of death." So these are semi-automated drones with an organic / sentient component. It would be nice if there were more types of them and if they had somewhat more special abilities, cropping up throughout V and with an Elite Guard protecting V:5. V:5 is an iconic moment both of the game and of V, so they are an obvious place to start from with a dedicated monster set.

3. Animated / Non-living Creations

This covers golems, animated items, and statues. I am not suggesting we fill V with these, but the presence of Hall of Blades in V points to a connection here. This could be considered the same category as Vault Guards given the above flavour.

I liked the idea of monster-buffing statues but as dpeg pointed out there is a luring problem. However if we are careful they could be interesting: for instance, a shrieking statue that wakes up nearby rooms and attracts corridor monsters; or a statue that can blink and haste monsters, so luring things away is ineffective.

There was some contention with TwilightPhoenix's ideas for animated items and yes I think it was a bit too much ... but the one thing I would particularly like to see from that list are Animated Spellbooks.

Golems are generally pretty boring but I think some new types of golem could solve this problem; importantly, golems don't have to be slow, if they're made from the right materials. A couple of ideas I like are an Armour Golem which is basically an animated suit of armour complete with weapon, or a Blade Golem which is made entirely of knives - melee characters and unarmed in particular have a high chance of cutting themselves attacking this, and when it dies there is an explosion of knives flying in all directions.

4. Overgrowth

Time for something wacky and new: because the Vaults have been untouched for so long there has been plenty of chance for plant life to grow and evolve in corridors and empty rooms, especially in the magical environment of V.

I don't think this has been proposed before, but here we have an opportunity to introduce a variety of new plant-based monsters. As well as being unique threats this allows us to tangle up the corridors with plant growth, making luring and escape tactics trickier. Fedhas worshippers get an easier ride, but I think any V plant monsters should still be hostile - they have evolved so deep down they are effectively cut off from Fedhas' ecosystem (or similar handwaving).

There are a number of ideas for plant monsters on the wiki but there is always a problem with making stationary threats interesting. Of course, not all plants have to be stationary.

We could even allow some semi-sentient plants to drop corpses and be butcherable, granting a new type of vegetarian chunk which herbivores can eat and which preserves a little better than normal chunks.

5. Vault Builders

We don't know who the builders were but perhaps some essence of them remains. Perhaps they were an ancient race who ascended to a higher plane of being, and from time to time they pop back for nostalgia's sake or to act as caretakers. They might manifest as powerful beings of pure energy, or perhaps their souls were bound into statues. Maybe they avoid direct intervention but to try and save their creation from getting destroyed by you, they tip the balance by casting buff spells on monsters. It would be nice to expand on the mythology of the Vaults without destroying the mystery. Perhaps they left traps for foolish adventurers, and we could have a higher incidence of the more interesting LUA traps than elsewhere in the dungeon.

...

This is a long post and I haven't elaborated on many specific monster ideas. I have some but I'll write a follow-up post with more; initially though I think it's important to establish exactly what theme will work to make Vaults stand a bit more on its own. Please tear my analysis to pieces now

[Davion Fuxa]

1) Would the 'Exhibits' be something you could identify before entering them? Like you see one with a couple Fire Giants standing in it and another with an Ancient Lich, you can therefore guage if entering is a fatal move on your part. Would monsters be able to open the Exhibits?

2) Sounds like these guys were cursed with servitude until death. Anyhow, what would the intelligence be on these new Vault Guards? Would they be a step down from Humanoid but with abilities or improved stats to compensate - or are you just trying to thematically change them?

3) For the Buffing Statues, consider giving them the ability to Memorize you; if they catch you then luring the other monsters away is no longer an option until you deal with them.

4) Maybe make this Overgrowth less of a Vault-wide thing and more of a level thing - ie, one level maybe be overgrown with Vines and such like a level-mini-vault. All Plants should be friendly to Fedhas worshipers though, being 'cut off' from Fedhas' Ecosystem doesn't make much sense.

5) Perhaps they might be neutral, and from time to time you get a D&D puzzle component thrown at you because they didn't make the Vaults to store away things for all time, just to protect them until such a time as a worthy adventurer came to claim them.

[mumra]

1) Would the 'Exhibits' be something you could identify before entering them? Like you see one with a couple Fire Giants standing in it and another with an Ancient Lich, you can therefore guage if entering is a fatal move on your part. Would monsters be able to open the Exhibits?

2) Sounds like these guys were cursed with servitude until death. Anyhow, what would the intelligence be on these new Vault Guards? Would they be a step down from Humanoid but with abilities or improved stats to compensate - or are you just trying to thematically change them?

Both these points were basically justifying or expanding on the existence of the status quo; so in trunk Vaults, anything defined inside a room is an 'exhibit'. I don't think there should be an indication of what's inside, and right now they're normal doors that the monsters inside can open. Maybe this shouldn't be the case for all rooms, and in fact there is a proposal on the wiki to have some locked doors (typically the staircase rooms but maybe also loot rooms) that require special 'vault keys' which could be acquired from some special kind of vault guard.

I think the point of enslaving a living being as a vault guard is to have something a bit more intelligent or dynamic than a mindless undead or animated guard. What I'm suggesting is that V:5 should have an elite version of the Vault Guard, and that the basic vault guard could have a handful of different subtypes. (Since the implication of all this is that standard D monsters should no longer appear (outside of exhibits), we might at the very least want some guards to start carrying bows or spells).

3) For the Buffing Statues, consider giving them the ability to Memorize you; if they catch you then luring the other monsters away is no longer an option until you deal with them.

Assuming you mean Mesmerize, this is a good point Blinking the player closer also works, although there is already a unique statue with that trick. These sort of effects can also be considered for making stationary plant monsters interesting.

4) Maybe make this Overgrowth less of a Vault-wide thing and more of a level thing - ie, one level maybe be overgrown with Vines and such like a level-mini-vault. All Plants should be friendly to Fedhas worshipers though, being 'cut off' from Fedhas' Ecosystem doesn't make much sense.

My thinking was that each level of V would be increasingly more overgrown. The idea was to convey how long the place had been left alone and provide a framework for introducing some new V monsters as bizarrely-evolved plants; if there are new Vaults-specific monsters then I think they should be on every level. On the other hand if that idea isn't too popular then sometimes having a whole level generate as overgrown with standard plants would be a nice touch, or just an occasional subvault. Either way I think the general idea of some new plant monsters (not specifically for V) has always been a popular one. The thing with Fedhas is that if plants were a larger part of the V threat then things could be too easy for Fedhas worshippers and we just need an excuse why these ones don't count - perhaps he considers them abominations because they've evolved in unnatural magical conditions and are semi-intelligent.

5) Perhaps they might be neutral, and from time to time you get a D&D puzzle component thrown at you because they didn't make the Vaults to store away things for all time, just to protect them until such a time as a worthy adventurer came to claim them.

Yes, an ascended race might be curious rather than hostile ... or perhaps they want to lock you away as an exhibit? Puzzle components are tricky, it's hard to make a good puzzle without it being spoilery (see Nethack's Sokoban levels) and whilst still fitting the game well. The keys idea is a very simplistic puzzle. I'd be interested to hear any other ideas for them, it would certainly be good candidates for LUA vaults, and V seems like the most appropriate branch for that kind of content, unless I ever get around to making my Factory portal

[nicolae]

The wiki page contained a proposal to separate the current monster set into D/V or at least tweak weightings to favour one or the other. There is a very valid objection to this: it dilutes the variation of D.

There are 27 levels of D and and there's a larger variety of monsters that can already spawn there relative to Vaults. I don't think D is in danger of losing too much variety if the D/V monster split idea from the devwiki is used.

Before we propose any new monsters I think it's important to establish the theme.

I like proposing crazy new monsters as much as the next guy but I don't think Vaults needs an entirely revamped set of all-new monsters in order to get a more distinct feel. (Particularly since your choice of theme might not appeal to everyone -- I don't think of the Vaults as ancient and abandoned at all.)

[njvack]

There are 27 levels of D and and there's a larger variety of monsters that can already spawn there relative to Vaults. I don't think D is in danger of losing too much variety if the D/V monster split idea from the devwiki is used.

I disagree. I think removing more than the barest set of monsters from D would reduce variety too much.

I very much agree with the gist of this thread, though I haven't thought enough to comment on specific monster set proposals. I can say that playing recent Abyss (after getting eldritch monsters but before inception) made the branch feel a lot more interesting. I think a unique V monster set would really add to the new (and awesome, I might add) level layouts.

[absolutego]

i honestly think V is mostly fine now.

[crate]

A much bigger problem with V is level generation still which st_ mostly covers in this mantis report: https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=6436

Tweaking the monster set sounds fine but it's pretty minor in comparison.

[absolutego]

i started to write about all that stuff but i thought it diluted the message so i removed it :$
i also like how tough vaults-y monsters (titans, multiple shadow dragons, giant "packs") are more common now, it's much more coherent. significant changes to the monster set could mean changing v:5 too which is probably bad.

i think st_'s doesn't mention gold rooms which are dumb as hell, unless that was removed already (i think i heard elliptic say something about it last year?). i'd also like to say that i sort of like the stuff under the "gimmicks" section. (i do agree that the staircases to v:5 shouldn't be in corridors though, that makes the welcoming committee almost irrelevant).

[mumra]

I like proposing crazy new monsters as much as the next guy but I don't think Vaults needs an entirely revamped set of all-new monsters in order to get a more distinct feel. (Particularly since your choice of theme might not appeal to everyone -- I don't think of the Vaults as ancient and abandoned at all.)

This exactly illustrates the problem. Vaults doesn't have any well-defined flavour or backstory (unlike all other branches), so here we are both thinking of it as completely different things. Perhaps you could expand on what you think the flavour should be - that's why I opened a discussion about flavour without getting bogged down in any serious monster proposals.

A much bigger problem with V is level generation still which st_ mostly covers in this mantis report: https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=6436

Tweaking the monster set sounds fine but it's pretty minor in comparison.

I hadn't seen those comments - but it does explain why some of my original subvaults were removed I will comment in the tracker as well, but personally I outright disagree that there shouldn't be occasional vaults with something slightly wacky like a kraken, we do not know why these vaults were created or who put things in them; why wouldn't they be keeping a kraken - perhaps for magical research? It sort of sounds like st would prefer if all the rooms were empty and just let the level generator decide what to place. I have no idea what the problem with using water or lava is. Other branches have vaults with specific monster and item placement, why is it an issue here? (It was kind of the point with how I conceived V that there would be some rooms like this ...) But I do agree that variance is a big problem and any crazier stuff should be extremely rare, as in only showing up once in several games (just like the wackier vaults in other branches, e.g. the abyssal kraken). So in general there need to be more of the interesting subvaults to avoid repetition, and weight them show up less frequently - use generic monster vaults and empty rooms to fill out the rest. When I wrote my original version of the layout, any size of room could be accommodated - my code analyzed the size of the subvault and then found a place for it, it wasn't constrained to any specific sizes, there was no problem with this ... so I'm not sure the purpose of needing all these specific sized rooms, obviously it was the way infiniplex did his separate implementation which I think was mostly complete before he was aware of mine. But this could be fixed. Another thing I wanted was to have subvaults of variable size, avoiding all that redundancy (but this would be somewhat complex).

However - several of the problems raised in the tracker can actually be solved much more easily if we better establish the theme and consequently the monster set. The problem with the standard monsters is they are exactly what is faced for most of the latter half of D, hence my desire to create slightly more unusual encounters with the first batch of test subvaults I made (which it sounds like are a large part of the ones he's complaining about). I also think the problem is vastly overstated in any case - I thoroughly enjoyed V and didn't find it repetitive at all. I also saw some technical issues e.g. inaccessible areas but these were rare. I don't see a problem with occasionally having stairs in the corridors (but I didn't encounter this), they don't always have to be in the rooms, this is a random game after all; and there's nothing wrong with rooms that can only be reached from other levels, it happens all the time in D and other branches. The problem with "The majority of the time you are encountering monsters is after opening doors to small rooms" can be tackled with some sort of alarm statue (or plant) that wakes up rooms. For me it wasn't a problem because my mage was making enough noise to wake lots of stuff up, if you are playing stealthily then of course you will only encounter rooms when you open them unless they contain noisy stuff ...

Anyway it just threw me a little because so far I'd only seen really positive feedback and my own experience was great; I was aware that tons more could be improved on, but the main thing that grated on my playthrough was endlessly wading through yaktaurs and green slimes for half the game, occasionally interspersed with more diverse threats ...

[nicolae]

This exactly illustrates the problem. Vaults doesn't have any well-defined flavour or backstory (unlike all other branches), so here we are both thinking of it as completely different things. Perhaps you could expand on what you think the flavour should be - that's why I opened a discussion about flavour without getting bogged down in any serious monster proposals.

I've always thought of it as a still-used system of vaults and secure storage, a combination of a do-it-yourself storage facility, that magical bank from Harry Potter, and the warehouse at the end of Raiders of the Lost Ark.

[inkydood]

I think the obvious solution is to make Vaults the Dwarf-themed branch:

1. Dwarves are already in the game. All one has to do to implement them is nothing at all
2. Who makes vast underground Vaults of stone and metal? Dwarves. The flavour is self-explanatory to over 9000% of the playerbase.
3. Humanoid species-themed branches are fun and exciting (Orc and Elf, Zot-- kind of).
4. Dwarves...?
5. Dwarves.

In all seriousness: I really think the flavour does in fact work! But if my carousing of Dwarven Halls in Wizard Mode is any indication, dorfs are not interesting enough to carry an entire branch on their own. But maybe...they could be.

PS. I like Vaults as-is
PPS. Except for the Hall of Blades

[Galefury]

Dwarves don't heal. This makes them a bit problematic as the main enemy of a branch in my opinion. Also pain mirror is really annoying.

[dpeg]

I agree with mumra that having a thematic idea is always a good start. Personally, I don't really have one. mumra's approach is a viable start, in my opinion.

inkydood: There was an idea to have Dwarf Fortress as a branch (competing with something else, for example Vaults).

In my opinion the new layout is a lot better than the old one, and I also think that st is too harsh on the current status. It's true that expectations of everyone (players and developers) have increased over time, but new Vaults have so much potential -- I don't imagine going back. If the branch is not finished by the next release, that's not really a problem: Shoals also took several versions to ripe. As did Abyss, in its own way.

[KoboldLord]

Most of the issues raised by st will simply go away when there's a larger pool of vaults and level generation schemes for the game to work with. Some of the vaults certainly do need to be axed, but there's a certain percentage of bad vaults written for every branch, so this isn't unusual. Heck, a bunch of the most objectionable ones were obvious placeholders from the start.

[Pereza0]

Must admit I like the idea of having a Dwarf branch (not deep dwarves though.... regeneration and stuff).

Having it being the deepest humanoid branch also seem thematically appropriate.

Maybe it would be cool mixing that with the vault guards/golems ideas. The first levels could be dwarves mostly, as you go down things become more vaulty, better protected (guards and/or golems) and with more treasure with the last level being almost devoid of dwarves. Dwarves could be fodder, while different kinds of golems/vault guards could pose different challenges (guards as big-stick-together groups and golems as particularly powerful individuals).

The overgrowth thing also sounds cool, but we already have the Lair and Spider filled with animals, plus its not really the first thing that comes to mind when your hear "Vaults"

[varsovie]

inkydood: There was an idea to have Dwarf Fortress as a branch (competing with something else, for example Vaults).

YAS!!FUN!!

[nicolae]

inkydood: There was an idea to have Dwarf Fortress as a branch (competing with something else, for example Vaults).

YAS!!FUN!!

complex lua scripting that makes dwarves mine their own caverns and build their own weapons and they go fey and sit in a corner

[rebthor]

It will need to have felids too which explains a lot about dwarf fortress IMO.

[Davion Fuxa]

It will need to have felids too which explains a lot about dwarf fortress IMO.

And a Unique Felid called Scamps?

[Jabberwocky]

Don't forget the huge, carnivorous, adventurer eating, carp

[rebthor]

So, big fish are in too. Tentacled monstrosities for when you dig too deep?

[Davion Fuxa]

I think trying to pack in everything related to Dwarf Fortress might take a while. We'd probably have to add in bloodthirsty elephants, have cheese appear quite often, new 'children monstrosities', occasional level flooding with lava, or yet another Unique possibility of adding 'Sankis' into the mix.

[rebthor]

I think trying to pack in everything related to Dwarf Fortress might take a while. We'd probably have to add in bloodthirsty elephants, have cheese appear quite often, new 'children monstrosities', occasional level flooding with lava, or yet another Unique possibility of adding 'Sankis' into the mix.

Hellephants are not bloodthirsty enough for you? Heck, regular elephants always seem to go out of their way to trample me in Lair. A new shoals-like mechanic for lava?

[Jabberwocky]

Unfortunately, "A" is already taken for a god name.

[mumra]

Quite a while back I was writing a proposal for a Dwarven Factory portal/branch which is responsible for the manufacturing of most of the equipment (and golems) in the dungeons. I wanted a dwarven branch with something a bit more to it than the stalled Dwarven Halls branch (which is what all the Deep Dwarves were originally implemented for). I was coming up with a new set of dwarf monsters; unfortunately I wrote up quite a bit more offline but I didn't finish it, and now I think I've lost the document. One suggestion for this branch was that it could be in a rotation with V, since there isn't room for a whole new late-game branch. The proposal also featured a number of experimental/prototype golems. The usual complaint I've heard about golems is that they are slow which makes them boring and annoying, so I was making an effort to invent some golems which were faster or had ranged abilities. Anyway for reference the incomplete proposal is here: https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:dungeon:branch:propose:dwarf:factory

I definitely wouldn't like the idea of Deep Dwarves in V. Way too many problems!

I do agree that my "overgrown" Vaults idea was could seem a bit strange (although note: I was talking about plant threats + vault guards rather than any living animals so this would be something fairly different from Lair/Spider/etc. - and I still think it would be awesome to have a plant-based portal/branch somewhere once enough plant ideas exist). The environment I was conceiving was (if you can imagine it) a bit like Portal 2 but where the plants have evolved into something nasty; or even closer, that Fallout New Vegas vault where that had literally happened, one of my favourite and most memorable areas of that game.

I think the most promising idea at this point lies in simply expanding the Vault Guard set. It's quite interesting that they're humans (since human threats are generally extremely rare), and slightly strange that they appear only on V:5 except for subvaults.

[Lasty]

Re: ranged golems, I believe that Crawl doesn't currently have any slow, ranged threats (aside from Gastronok before he hastes himself). There's average speed, fast, and immobile ranged threats, but nothing that chases you slowly. In the right setting, it could be an interesting challenge.

[BlackSheep]

Cyclopes are slow, ranged threats, as are manticores. Unless you meant, like, elephant slug slow.

[njvack]

Huh! I've killed a lot of cyclopses and manticores and never realized they were slow. So my gut tells me that slow ranged threats are not necessarily memorable

[crate]

Hell sentinels are not actually slow. Dissolution got sped up recently too.

If what the learndb says is correct then random panlords can't be slow either but since those are learndb numbers I take them with a grain of salt.

[Galefury]

If what the learndb says is correct then random panlords can't be slow either but since those are learndb numbers I take them with a grain of salt.

Orb run pan lords used to sometimes be slow (at least speed 9, so not very slow, see 7cdf573 for the change), pan panlords were speed 10+ for as long as I can remember.

[Lasty]

Also iron dragons, statues, oklob plants, curse skulls, curse toes, iron elementals, giant eyeballs, eyes of draining, shining eyes, eyes of devastation, mummy priests, nagas, naga magi, naga warriors, greater nagas, naga ghosts, oklob saplings, burning bushes, lightning spires, catoblepae, smoke demons, Hell Sentinels, some Pan lords, Polyphemus, Dissolution, and Menkaure.

IMO slow monsters are bad in general

Several of those are immobile, which I did exclude, but you raise a good point: I've run into all of those monsters (except iron elementals -- where do they spawn?) and most of them are monsters that I never realized were slow. Given that, presumably being slow isn't any more interesting on a ranged monster.