Let's have a reality check.

[Scrotar]

Devs, start adding to the game and not subtracting or playing musical features. The last few expansions have not only been meh, but actually made the game worse in some ways in the name of blind ideology.

It's not so much the game design principles but who applies them. You're not going to find many people to give you a reality check because people don't like to be ruthlessly flamed for dissent, but I have moved beyond being concerned about the inevitable nastinest for having an opinion.

[Galefury]

Wait what? Apparently you have a problem with where crawl development has been going, but you're not saying what it is. You cant expect people to take your criticism seriously if you don't even say what changes you disagree with.

[cerebovssquire]

you do realise that "you won't find many people who give you a reality check (but i am going to do this, hi guys i am the voltaire of crawl and here is the great enlightenment)" translates to "i am alone in the world with my opinion but i still expect you to take a completely new direction in your development" don't you
if you're trying to provoke people and not actually contribute you aren't doing a very good job either because this is thread #2 where this is blatantly obvious

[dpeg]

minmay: Fair enough, but on the whole (among games, of the genre for example), Crawl is quite good at removing things, I'd say.

You have to see that new stuff is a lot more fun for everyone: designer, coder, player. Removing causes hard feelings and is done for higher principles (and often leads to a better game). Cannot expect a release without new stuff, it wouldn't fly.

[KoboldLord]

This post makes absolutely no sense without some context. Fortunately, we have forum features that allow us to search for other posts made by the same user. This guy's made 10 posts, including this one.

Four of them involve a flame-out in his YAFVP post in the CIP forum. He thought it was stupid that hill orcs got +2 to invocations, and got unreasonably upset when responses ranged between mild disagreement and complete disinterest. He didn't bother explaining why he thought this, and honestly I have no idea what the problem with hill orcs having good invocations might be.

One of them involved a thread in the CIP forum that he started that was basically a backhand slap against the Abyss, since apparently most of his characters don't find the exit. It ended up getting no replies because it was too vague to lead to any interesting discussion and the immediate problem had already been solved, so there was no point in giving advice.

Another involved a thread in Game Design that proposed a weapon brand called Force, which would knockback a target whenever it procs. Not the first time that's come up, but certainly a reasonable idea for a relatively new member. The response wasn't hostile, but it wasn't really positive either, and the OP did not post in that thread again.

Three of the posts were complaining about mountain dwarves being removed. I'd suspect that this was the main factor in the OP's inexplicable recurring hostility.

I'm going to give this guy the benefit of the doubt and assume that he is twelve years old, because twelve-year-olds often have this sort of difficulty expressing themselves effectively. Unfortunately, that means I can't really help very much unless he slows down, expresses himself clearly, and reviews his posts before hitting submit to see if a relative stranger is going to understand the context he's posting from. He could very well have some good ideas and useful experiences, but we'll never find out unless he can present them coherently.

[ebarrett]

dwarf fetishists go home

[inkydood]

Wait what? Apparently you have a problem with where crawl development has been going, but you're not saying what it is. You cant expect people to take your criticism seriously if you don't even say what changes you disagree with.

This. I've enjoyed the changes and additions of recent versions, and I've noticed more additions than subtractions, but until OP produces an argument one can only assume he has none.

My greatest complaint about Crawl development for the last several years has been that there are too many additions and not enough removals.

I'd enjoy reading what you think should be removed, assuming you have more to say on the subject than OP. Maybe then this thread will have a use.

[dpeg]

minmay: That's a valid point. New monsters have been added when instead old monsters should have been reflavoured.

On the other hand, gila monster --> basilisk and pit fiend --> hell sentinel are "new" monsters that are really old monsters with additional features. Other old monsters that got a facelift are slime creatures and ugly things. And there should be more. I also think that we've lost some more than just midges, but there are many more new monsters, no question about that. On the other hand, the additions are at least better than "bunch of numbers", they have individual code.

[yogaFLAME]

As a developer on a different open-source piece of software, posts like this one really rankle. You guys are really far too kind, I'd just tell the guy to cram it.

[XuaXua]

Oh shit, gang! The trunk deploy shows that the devs just removed all fun from the game.

[Eji1700]

My greatest complaint about Crawl development for the last several years has been that there are too many additions and not enough removals.

I'd enjoy reading what you think should be removed, assuming you have more to say on the subject than OP. Maybe then this thread will have a use.

As far as that design complaint, I'm mainly thinking of redundant features. The part that most bothers me right now is monsters - why bother adding sky beasts or porcupines, for example? At least midges were taken out recently, so possibly this trend is finally going to reverse.

While i feel porcupines are certainly another flavor of Giant centipede(a total non threat) I do think sky beasts add some legitimate variety to the early/mid dungeon while also helping to show off invis in a safer environment than the usual orc sorc horde/Sigmund.

Also since we're adding merit to a pointless topic, why do orc sorcerers have staffs in tiles if all they ever carry are maces, axes, and hammers? Would it be too deadly to allow them to carry quaterstaffs after some point? Both to bring the tile a little more in line with reality and to allow another way to access a quaterstaff early other than floor trash and Yiuf?

[twelwe]

For an excellent cut of meat, you must trim the fat. Perhaps you like to eat your steak with mustard, or drown it with barbecue sauce. Some people actually do this and enjoy it. As an analogy, the excesses of this game are pruned over time, leaving the necessities. This forum has accelerated the removals of gameplay elements that will not be missed. A good example of this is the submerged enemies thread. Are submerged enemies really necessary? Do they add more annoyance than fun gameplay elements to the game? This is the type of thinking the devs use when considering new gameplay elements, and it is good that the people on this forum are able to bring attention to long-lived elements that need to be reconsidered.

Crawl does not need to be drowned with mustard

[twelwe]

why bother adding sky beasts or porcupines, for example?

I think sky beasts were one of the best recent additions, because they teach a very basic lesson to new players on how to deal with invisibility. The temporary nature of their invisibility as compared to, say, something else early like Orc Wizards, makes the lesson much easier to learn. Crawl does not do as good of a job in introducing some other dangerous elements, like torment or hellfire, which I think has it's place in the early-mid game but as significantly neutered forms (some quick, not serious examples: torment that increases player regeneration significantly, or a suicidal monster that runs up to you and explodes in hellfire, meaning you won't get hit more than once). Porcupines though - you're correct about those.

[roctavian]

Also since we're adding merit to a pointless topic, why do orc sorcerers have staffs in tiles if all they ever carry are maces, axes, and hammers? Would it be too deadly to allow them to carry quaterstaffs after some point? Both to bring the tile a little more in line with reality and to allow another way to access a quaterstaff early other than floor trash and Yiuf?

I made a few variations on a lot of caster types whose weapons don't show in the tile, but nobody seemed to like them and I haven't had the time to make further revisions -- this is preferable to changing what the monster actually equips IMO.

I think the game has had a ton of additions in recent releases -- an improved skill screen, autopickup select, octopodes, Spider, monster jewelry usage, and perhaps a million vaults. Versus what? MD, katanas, ?DC and secret doors?

[snow]

For the most part I like the changes that have been made.

Also you can always play older versions. A lot of people play older versions of Dungeons and Dragons for example and a lot of videogames have a "classic" setting where you can play version 1.0 without broken feature X being nerfed or whatever.

[Galefury]

I think the game has had a ton of additions in recent releases -- an improved skill screen, autopickup select, octopodes, Spider, monster jewelry usage, and perhaps a million vaults. Versus what? MD, katanas, ?DC and secret doors?

*gasp* How could you forget Hive?

[Scrotar]

Does anyone want to actually listen to constructive criticism? I have plenty that I can justify relentlessly. But I'm not going to waste my energy and gratify the social parasites if it will be simply another opportunity to bash someone for them. Lemme know.

Reddit, SA and bay12 will give you some perspective on the development of crawl that you can't get here, but be careful because you will find fanboys there as well.

[One-Eyed Jack]

If you want to post your actual suggestions, do so. If you want to leave, do so (this is probably the better option). Make up your own damn mind. But stop this "I am a voice of reason among a sea of idiots" bullshit; it doesn't do anything except prevent peple from taking you seriously.

[roctavian]

Does anyone want to actually listen to constructive criticism?

No-one has said anything that should discourage you from offering constructive criticism.

[dpeg]

Grimm, can you lock this?

I am confident by now that the OP is unable to come up with any decent proposals about the game itself. He can express this superiority complex elsewhere.

[twelwe]

Scrotar I'm surprised you have time to type the 11 posts you've already submitted. Your time is very valuable, and I'm sure you've lost an incalculable amount of profit from your successful businesses and personal relationships while debating whether or not to waste more breath on us parasites. I'm surprised you play video games at all, in fact, since you and your time is so important. Shouldn't you be wiping your ass with $100 bills right about now anyway? Shouldn't you be in bed with ten blondes? Surely you've put something really important aside to grace us with your presence. Amazing we've heard of you at all, to speak the truth of it.

[BlackSheep]

Don't feed the flames, please.

[snow]

I think this is more of a case of players not realizing that a Hill Orc is the exact same thing as a Mountain Dwarf and thinking nausea is the worst thing ever than anything else. Also a lot of additions aren't really that apparent (aptitude changes, additional vaults, additional spells) so it can look like more is taken away than added when it's really the other way around.

I still stand by the idea that you can play older versions if you wish. They're still available, both online and offline, so there's really no reason to complain. If the OP could list exactly what he doesn't like though it would be more constructive.

[pratamawirya]

Guys, I didn't even realize Pit Fiend was gone.

But back on topic.

Does anyone want to actually listen to constructive criticism?

Yes! If you don't believe it, then why don't you SEARCH for old posts and threads that discuss things constructively? There are A LOT of such posts/threads in the Tavern.

[Scrotar]

DPEG you seem like an alright developer. I will look into writing up a discussion of the state of Crawl development and how it could be improved, and message you or other relevant parties personally.

[pubby]

Does anyone want to actually listen to constructive criticism? I have plenty that I can justify relentlessly. But I'm not going to waste my energy and gratify the social parasites if it will be simply another opportunity to bash someone for them. Lemme know.

That's what this forum is for. Of course, if you want to be listened to you'll probably have to mention the positive changes you like and also throw out a few ideas of where you think the game should be heading. That's just how humans work.

Grimm, can you lock this?

I am confident by now that the OP is unable to come up with any decent proposals about the game itself. He can express this superiority complex elsewhere.

Why does he need a proposal? This is just feedback, albeit poor feedback. (also, isn't locking a topic out of spite expressing a superiority complex? It's not like his posts break forum rules.)

[Grimm]