Butchering

[Moose]

Why must the player equip an edged weapon to butcher a corpse? I know it seems realistic, but really, I think it causes more pain than it's worth. A few observations:

-- Polearm, staff, and mace users are negatively impacted by this. They spend more turns butchering and sometimes get stuck with a butchering weapon in their hand when a baddie appears from around the corner, and have to spend a turn switching back.

-- You have an increased chance of getting a cursed butchering weapon on the early levels before you have found any scrolls of remove curse. When this happens, I normally quit. It's either that, or spend 30 turns trying to kill a rat with a cursed -1, -3 dagger.

-- I don't think it's all that unreasonable to assume that behind the scenes, the PC brought a skinning knife with him into the dungeons and can safely use it transparently, even when a cursed quarterstaff is stuck in their hands. I'm also assuming me brought toilet paper too.

-- I dont think the minigame created by requiring an edged weapon to butcher a corpse adds anything meaningful or fun to the game. I only see drawbacks introduced from it that especially affect new players negatively.

-- This also makes many players waste an inventory slot on an edged weapon. I know this isn't a huge deal, but it is inventory spam.

[danr]

I've had similar thoughts. At the very least, it should be possible to eat from a corpse without butchering it, or to butcher it with another weapon, even if both actions take longer than using a knife.

It just doesn't make sense if you are starving to death that you wouldn't eat a quokka just because you don't want to get some fur stuck in your teeth or because you don't have the appropriate silverware. There are plenty of carnivorous animals that make surprisingly little use of knives.

So: I think it should be possible to consume flesh without an edged weapon, even if it has to be less efficient, at least it frees up an inventory slot.

[Moose]

What you're proposing is a bit more radical and possible game-changing that what I am (not to say that you might not necessarily have some good ideas). Seamless corpse butchery wouldn't change any mechanics of play really, or introduce any new strategies, it would just streamline the process...

[dpeg]

https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=373

Something on butcher: You don't have to carry corpses, you carry chunks instead. You butcher tactically in order to deny someone zombies or skeletons. Choice of edged vs unedged weapon matters.

I believe the interface proposal above will do fine.

[danr]

I like that proposal too.

But I still just don't get why you would starve if you have teeth and a dead rat.

[acvar]

I am going to say it. The whole food system is BS. Either you use food as a way to push people deeper into the dungeon in which case you get rid of the ability to eat chunks, or you get rid of food all together. This is just a bad holdover from nethack. The food mechanic is a bad mechanic. It was bad in rogue where it often lead to very frustrating unavoidable deaths. It was bad in nethack before you could eat corpses for the very same reason. Gods and eating corpses made it a non issue in later versions. So what is the purpose of food in crawl. It does not give intrinsics. It does not force people to dive since you can butcher (unless you are a spriggan). All it seems to do is make some things tedious. The "choices" it supposedly gives are quite frankly useless.

[evilmike]

I am going to say it. The whole food system is BS. Either you use food as a way to push people deeper into the dungeon in which case you get rid of the ability to eat chunks, or you get rid of food all together. This is just a bad holdover from nethack. The food mechanic is a bad mechanic. It was bad in rogue where it often lead to very frustrating unavoidable deaths. It was bad in nethack before you could eat corpses for the very same reason. Gods and eating corpses made it a non issue in later versions. So what is the purpose of food in crawl. It does not give intrinsics. It does not force people to dive since you can butcher (unless you are a spriggan). All it seems to do is make some things tedious. The "choices" it supposedly gives are quite frankly useless.

Food is very relevant when casting spells, and when using certain other food-intensive abilities (ie berserk). It also becomes an issue for races which have food restrictions (spriggans) or hunger issues (centaurs). Finally, it can work as an interesting gameplay mechanic (ghouls and fedhas come to mind).

[danr]

I would stay away from blanket statements. Food is an intrinsic part of the game, and the balancing between different races and backgrounds. It is a limited resource that needs to be managed just like others such as HP, MP, XP, and other consumables (scrolls, potions). Starvation may be easy to avoid, but food remains an important mechanic for spellcasting as well as berserking.

[MrMisterMonkey]

If it's only relevant to spellcasting and berserking, either make it more relevant (but try not to make it any more annoying), or make it only apply to spellcasting and berserking (and balance food for that).

[starless]

It's a big issue when you wield a non-edged vampiric weapon and you have to reach for you knife to butcher a corpse.

[MrMisterMonkey]

Then make it apply to that too.

[danr]

It's a big issue when you wield a non-edged vampiric weapon and you have to reach for you knife to butcher a corpse.

Same for a distortion weapon.

[acvar]

Let me state it as bluntly as possible. The only thing I can stand to play anymore is KoBe. I play berserkers because I can't stand the moronic experience distribution system commonly called victory dancing that is necessary for any spellcasters, and I can't stand the mashing of the 5 key necessary to deal with eating chunks. The choice between boredom and annoyance is a bad choice that should not be part of any game. The fringe benefits that the food system add to the game are far outweighed by the drudgery that it causes. The idea that it has always been done that way and as such must continue to be done that way is foolish. We don't drive around in horse drawn carriages, and we should not be tied to old game tech either. The rogue model has evolved, and it can easily evolve past this anachronism. There are better ways to prevent scumming. Use them.

[danr]

acvar, you seem pretty bitter about this game.

[MrMisterMonkey]

oh and I'd like to point out that I actually hate hunger and I want it to die, but in the case that it doesn't die, making it either always matter, or only matter for which it really matters now, preferably without annoyance like having to eat everything ever, would be nice

[galehar]

Let me state it as bluntly as possible. The only thing I can stand to play anymore is KoBe. I play berserkers because I can't stand the moronic experience distribution system commonly called victory dancing that is necessary for any spellcasters, and I can't stand the mashing of the 5 key necessary to deal with eating chunks. The choice between boredom and annoyance is a bad choice that should not be part of any game. The fringe benefits that the food system add to the game are far outweighed by the drudgery that it causes. The idea that it has always been done that way and as such must continue to be done that way is foolish. We don't drive around in horse drawn carriages, and we should not be tied to old game tech either. The rogue model has evolved, and it can easily evolve past this anachronism. There are better ways to prevent scumming. Use them.

Please, just go play another game.

[dpeg]

For what it's worth, the food clock is extremely valuable. This means that there's some counter (for convenience and flavour called "nutrition" or "hunger") and you die when it's zero. The food clock means that you cannot sit idly by, you have to go deeper. As far as I know, the original Rogue did this best, all later games watered down the clock. In Crawl, food is largely irrelevant for a number of playing styles, and that is not good. It is always an option to remove stuff (and I think development so far has shown that we're not afraid of axing things).

So regarding food: the clock will stay. This does not necessarily mean that eating will stay the way it is. I'd like to recall that Spriggans used to be eaters, but where restricted to permafood somewhere around 0.3. Ideas how to make food more interesting (currently, we only have the types poisoned, rotten, mutagenic, plus special food jelly and ambrosia) are welcome. It might be possible to restrict corpse eating to certain species, but that's a very drastic step with unclear ramifications. In any case, I don't know of a game of this size (not just in the roguelike genre) which does not involve some amount of repetition. We're aware of this and will follow good proposals to cut down on this.

[lucy_ferre]

@acvar

Your tirades are not helpful. Please keep the discussion civil. You have been warned.

[danr]

Let me state it as bluntly as possible. The only thing I can stand to play anymore is KoBe.

Please, just go play another game.

It sounds like all that is needed to accomplish that is to somehow ruin the KoBe combo...