Is this spider's nest portal a bit mean?

[smock]

Is this spider's nest vault a bit mean?

Fullscreen capture 8152011 83036 PM.jpg (110.4 KiB) Viewed 4330 times

If you cross the deep water near the entrance, you might not be able to get back! To my memory, every other portal warns you if there is a point of no return.

[mad]

It wouldn't be too mean if there were potions of levitation as guaranteed loot?

[galehar]

True, this shouldn't happen. The player can enter the vault with a potion of levitation, use it to cross the deep water and trap himself. I've reported it.

[Stormfox]

I'm guessing the designer's intent was that this is indeed a spider nest -- anything that can cling to walls has no problem navigating it, while anything that can't is kept out.

[galehar]

I'm guessing the designer's intent was that this is indeed a spider nest -- anything that can cling to walls has no problem navigating it, while anything that can't is kept out.

Making it hard to navigate is one thing, trapping the player inside is another and is not acceptable. And it has been fixed.

[Stormfox]

Oh, I'm not saying it was a good idea. Intent is well and good, but the intent here ended up with some unanticipated consequences.

[XuaXua]

I encountered a Sewers like this recently where the inaccessible center was surrounded by deep water, but none of the potions available as floor trash were levitation.

Lemme check which one it was... it was a new layout to me.

I think it was sewer_co_15_rooms

Nothing allowed levitation to the middle or even blinking. Had to have the ability on arrival.

[galehar]

I encountered a Sewers like this recently where the inaccessible center was surrounded by deep water, but none of the potions available as floor trash were levitation.

Lemme check which one it was... it was a new layout to me.

I think it was sewer_co_15_rooms

Nothing allowed levitation to the middle or even blinking. Had to have the ability on arrival.

There is a pretty good to chance to find a potion of levitation or a scroll of blinking in the loot but it's not guaranteed. This is perfectly acceptable. The point is that you can't trap yourself in the vault.

[smock]

This bailey (bailey_axe_3) is similar: deep water at the entrance. It doesn't trap you in there but it would be pretty sad for the player to have to leave without even seeing the bailey. Not sure if it's mantis-worthy as it doesn't trap, it just could make you feel ripped off.

bailey_axe_3.jpg (99.78 KiB) Viewed 4130 times

[Tiber]

I'm guessing the designer's intent was that this is indeed a spider nest -- anything that can cling to walls has no problem navigating it, while anything that can't is kept out.

Making it hard to navigate is one thing, trapping the player inside is another and is not acceptable. And it has been fixed.

While not having the player be trapped is admirable, the goal is to keep out anyone who can't cross it. Shouldn't the proper solution be to just have another exit on the opposite side?

[TwilightPhoenix]

While not having the player be trapped is admirable, the goal is to keep out anyone who can't cross it. Shouldn't the proper solution be to just have another exit on the opposite side?

Keeping players out of a portal vault they potentially worked hard and took risky actions to get to is pretty lame. If it's to keep a weak player out of a harder portal vault, then let them do like with the rest of the game and let them either learn the hard way or die.

[galehar]

the goal is to keep out anyone who can't cross it.

How would you know? Are you 7hm? I really doubt it was intentional since the deep water cell wasn't guaranteed.

Shouldn't the proper solution be to just have another exit on the opposite side?

It's certainly another solution. Not sure how it's more proper since I don't think it was intentional.

[Tiber]

Hmm, I'd only ever seen it with the deep water, so I thought it was guaranteed. And there's already a precedent for optional places you need levitation to get to (one bailey, that secret area in Hive 2).

And not every challenge is meant for every type of character. It doesn't bother me to test the player in a way that doesn't involve beating something up.

[TwilightPhoenix]

I wouldn't really call deep water blocking an entrance a test or challenge. More like a "Do you have a Potion of Levitation or some other means to cross? If yes, proceed. If no, you're screwed out of this portal. Have a nice day!" I also wouldn't consider the secret Hive 2 area the same since you can take care of the majority of the Hive regardless of whether that generates or not. Now if you went down to Hive 1 and couldn't leave the entrance staircase tile without Levitation, it'd be closer to the situation in the Bailey.

[XuaXua]

This bailey (bailey_axe_3) is similar: deep water at the entrance. It doesn't trap you in there but it would be pretty sad for the player to have to leave without even seeing the bailey. Not sure if it's mantis-worthy as it doesn't trap, it just could make you feel ripped off.

bailey_axe_3.jpg

You sure there isn't a teleport trap in there?

[smock]

I don't think that there's a teleport trap. Here's the layout:

  Code:

MAP
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxx.....xxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxx...A...xxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxx.......xxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxx..<..xxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxc+++cxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxc"""cxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxcccc'''ccccxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxccw.......wccxxxxxxx
xxxcccccww.......wwcccccxxx
xxxc.=1+ww.......ww+1=.cxxx
xxxc.cccww.......wwccc.cxxx
xxxc.=1+ww.......ww+1=.cxxx
xxxc.cccww.......wwccc.cxxx
xxxc.=1+ww.......ww+1=.cxxx
xxxc.cccww.......wwccc.cxxx
xxxc.=1+ww.......ww+1=.cxxx
xxxc.cccww.......wwccc.cxxx
xxxcT=1+ww.......ww+1=Tcxxx
xxxcccccww.......wwcccccxxx
xxxxxxxccw.......wccxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxcccc+++ccccxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxcc.....ccxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxc<d.3.d<cxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxc...G...cxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxcc.....ccxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxccc=cccxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxvvvv...vvvvxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxvvv.........vvvxxxxxx
xxxxxvv.............vvxxxxx
xxxxxv....2..2..2....vxxxxx
xxxxxv...............vxxxxx
xxxxxvv.............vvxxxxx
xxxxxxvvv.dd...dd.vvvxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxvvvv3_3vvvvxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxvvvvvxxxxxxxxxxx
ENDMAP


and some code that I think helps to interpret it:

  Code:

SUBST:  ' : +".
SUBST:  " : wW"
SUBST:  " = wwW


[dpeg]

I made the bailey map and the deep water (which is not always there) has a purpose: unless you can reliably levitate/fly/swim, you need (a) to spend a resource (levitation, blink, teleportation) and (b) this makes it a little harder to flee. In my opinion you can expect a player at Bailey depth to have one of those tools -- it is her assessment whether she wants to proceed nonetheless. With the moat it is just somewhat more risky.

[smock]

I usually drop un-id singleton scroll and potions before entering portal to make room for loot. In some cases, that strategy should be amended in case one of the item would prove useful.

For most builds that can cross deep water, then can get back as well. This is a great time for a potion of levitation. I'd be loath to use a scroll of teleportation since it -cTele! I doubt it's worth burning up to two scrolls of blinking unless you're training axes or throwing.

Two ideas here. First, use a gate that shuts of the retreat instead of deep water. (Perhaps with a warning so the first time you see the layout it's not such a "gotcha!".) Second, putting a single guaranteed potion of levitation at the entrance would mean that everyone can enter but not everyone can exit -- indeed, it'd test the skills of players, as many wouldn't be able to return! A guaranteed potion of levitation means that all players will have to decide whether to proceed, not just those who found a way to cross deep water.