Halls Hopper
Posts: 55
Joined: Monday, 9th July 2012, 22:24
Although the central place for design discussion is ##crawl-dev on freenode, some may find it helpful to discuss requests and suggestions here first.
Halls Hopper
Posts: 55
Joined: Monday, 9th July 2012, 22:24
Zot Zealot
Posts: 982
Joined: Monday, 29th September 2014, 09:04
Crypt Cleanser
Posts: 689
Joined: Saturday, 12th December 2015, 23:54
Crypt Cleanser
Posts: 746
Joined: Thursday, 5th December 2013, 04:01
Hellmonk wrote:Human-like races with a few aptitude tweaks are the Marios in this metaphor, and they should be removed and replaced with cool and interesting new characters like King Dedede and Sonic the Hedgehog.
Spider Stomper
Posts: 242
Joined: Friday, 17th April 2015, 16:22
Quazifuji wrote:I don't know if either of those really address the argument that the existence of high elves in the game didn't really affect people who didn't play them, which is pretty common among the people angry about their removal (at least the people angry about it making real arguments and not just going on ignorant anti-dev rants).
Crypt Cleanser
Posts: 746
Joined: Thursday, 5th December 2013, 04:01
duvessa wrote:It's hard to address an "argument" that boils down to a tautology. Of course removing something doesn't affect you if the thing didn't affect you in the first place. The closest you can get to "refuting" this non-argument is to point out that new players start playing DCSS from time to time, and giving them a smaller amount of real choices should be self-evidently better than giving them a large amount of fake choices to learn about.Quazifuji wrote:I don't know if either of those really address the argument that the existence of high elves in the game didn't really affect people who didn't play them, which is pretty common among the people angry about their removal (at least the people angry about it making real arguments and not just going on ignorant anti-dev rants).
This is also a complete distraction since "it doesn't affect you", "if you don't like labyrinths don't enter them", etc. are not reasons that anyone is against removals. They're bargains to try to stop the removal without actually changing anyone's view (and, spoiler, it doesn't work very well). You can't weasel your way out of the fact that for any feature, some people will think it's good and others will think it's bad. In the case of removed species, for literally every single one, the devteam consensus was that the species was redundant, and player complaints were overwhelmingly from people who thought the species wasn't redundant. There's not a magic compromise here, so the discussion is always nothing but attempts to either 1. move people from the other side to your side, or 2. tell people on the other side to stop acting on their opinion ("if you don't like high elves just don't play them instead of removing them", and from the other side, "play old versions" and "make your own fork").
This pattern is by no means unique to feature removals.
Tartarus Sorceror
Posts: 1667
Joined: Saturday, 11th October 2014, 06:12
Location: Brazil. RS, Santa Cruz do Sul.
chequers wrote:Two reasons:
1. DCSS cares about gameplay over lore / theme.
2. The DCSS philosophy on replayability: "whenever there are choices to the player, be that choice of species, god, weapon or spell, the various options should be genuinely different. It is no good to provide dozens of weapons with different names (and perhaps even numbers) if, in the end, they all play the same."
The "cost" of keeping un-differentiated stuff is that the real diversity is less visible.
Slime Squisher
Posts: 365
Joined: Monday, 7th January 2013, 08:22
Shoals Surfer
Posts: 287
Joined: Friday, 19th August 2016, 21:21
Steel Neuron wrote:I have a bit of an unpopular opinion, but I think DCSS would benefit a lot from making an extra effort when about to remove something and instead focus on reworking
Halls Hopper
Posts: 80
Joined: Tuesday, 3rd January 2017, 21:47
Steel Neuron wrote:Step 1: Rework HE, Step 2: Rename HE, and you have a brand new race!
Tartarus Sorceror
Posts: 1667
Joined: Saturday, 11th October 2014, 06:12
Location: Brazil. RS, Santa Cruz do Sul.
ONIchinchin wrote:Step 1: Rework Humans
give +3 Axe apt
add +2 more Invo because... uhhh... why not
fiddle with its magic apts in an unintuitive manner
give the ability to worship a bad god
Step 2: Rename Humans to Hill Orcs
Step 3: Wow it's a brand new not redundant race!
Steel Neuron wrote:I have a bit of an unpopular opinion, but I think DCSS would benefit a lot from making an extra effort when about to remove something and instead focus on reworking, even if the rework involves a complete mechanical U-turn.
Slime Squisher
Posts: 365
Joined: Monday, 7th January 2013, 08:22
duvessa wrote:Steel Neuron wrote:I have a bit of an unpopular opinion, but I think DCSS would benefit a lot from making an extra effort when about to remove something and instead focus on reworking, even if the rework involves a complete mechanical U-turn.
You people ignore all the PUBLIC discussion that goes on in ##crawl-dev and crd and the dev wiki and mantis and then go to wordpress or tavern and pretend it never existed. This is why devs don't bother making real responses to you! It's not because your extremely popular opinion is unpopular, it's because you don't put even a modicum of effort into figuring out what's going on, you just attack strawmen instead.
Shoals Surfer
Posts: 253
Joined: Monday, 20th June 2016, 15:27
Hellmonk wrote:Imagine if you were gonna play some super smash bros melee with your friends, but in addition to Mario and Doctor Mario there were 30 other Mario clones like frog Mario and hammer bros suit Mario and 8-bit Mario and Mario from doki doki panic (that's super mario bros 2 american version) and cowboy Mario and paper Mario (but without a unique moveset or anything). You'd probably think "wow, this game is stupid, I want to play unique characters not 32 different fucking Marios that take up over half the roster." Human-like races with a few aptitude tweaks are the Marios in this metaphor, and they should be removed and replaced with cool and interesting new characters like King Dedede and Sonic the Hedgehog.
Shoals Surfer
Posts: 273
Joined: Monday, 23rd November 2015, 23:18
removeelyvilon wrote:Also, I think the crux of the problem is that people have very different opinions on just how "unique" a species needs be to be "justified".
duvessa wrote:teleportitis is annoying but i dont think you could ever convince me it is dangerous, let alone crippling
duvessa wrote:DCSS Go: jump down the nearest manhole and fully explore the sewers before you go back out
Abyss Ambulator
Posts: 1194
Joined: Friday, 18th April 2014, 01:41
Tartarus Sorceror
Posts: 1667
Joined: Saturday, 11th October 2014, 06:12
Location: Brazil. RS, Santa Cruz do Sul.
duvessa wrote:You people ignore all the PUBLIC discussion that goes on in ##crawl-dev and crd and the dev wiki and mantis and then go to wordpress or tavern and pretend it never existed. This is why devs don't bother making real responses to you! It's not because your extremely popular opinion is unpopular, it's because you don't put even a modicum of effort into figuring out what's going on, you just attack strawmen instead.
Hu - Neutral
Ce - Top tier
Dg - Neutral
Ds - Neutral
Dr - Bad
DD - Awful
DE - Bad (the +1 does not make up for the low str)
HE - Removed
Fo - Bad
Gr - Neutral/Good
Gh - Bad
Ha - Awful(+1 against +4 from slings and cannot use longbow)
Ko - Awful
Mf - Bad
Mi - Neutral/Good
Mu - Bad
Na - Bad
Op - Bad/Neutral
Og - Botton Tier
Ho - Bad
Sp - Awful(cannot use longbows, low str)
Te - Good
Tr - Botton Tier
Vp - Awful
Vs - Bad
Swamp Slogger
Posts: 143
Joined: Friday, 24th July 2015, 23:03
Tartarus Sorceror
Posts: 1667
Joined: Saturday, 11th October 2014, 06:12
Location: Brazil. RS, Santa Cruz do Sul.
Shoals Surfer
Posts: 276
Joined: Sunday, 6th November 2016, 19:19
dynast wrote:Fo:Bad
Shoals Surfer
Posts: 253
Joined: Monday, 20th June 2016, 15:27
duvessa wrote:You people ignore all the PUBLIC discussion that goes on in ##crawl-dev and crd and the dev wiki and mantis and then go to wordpress or tavern and pretend it never existed. This is why devs don't bother making real responses to you! It's not because your extremely popular opinion is unpopular, it's because you don't put even a modicum of effort into figuring out what's going on, you just attack strawmen instead.
Snake Sneak
Posts: 92
Joined: Thursday, 28th July 2016, 04:11
duvessa wrote:You people ignore all the PUBLIC discussion that goes on in ##crawl-dev and crd and the dev wiki and mantis and then go to wordpress or tavern and pretend it never existed. This is why devs don't bother making real responses to you! It's not because your extremely popular opinion is unpopular, it's because you don't put even a modicum of effort into figuring out what's going on, you just attack strawmen instead.
Tartarus Sorceror
Posts: 1667
Joined: Saturday, 11th October 2014, 06:12
Location: Brazil. RS, Santa Cruz do Sul.
Vajrapani wrote:dynast wrote:Fo:Bad
I'm curious as to why you think this. I haven't got a ton of experience with hunter, but are bows that much worse than crossbows for formicids?
Slime Squisher
Posts: 365
Joined: Monday, 7th January 2013, 08:22
Cimanyd wrote:duvessa wrote:You people ignore all the PUBLIC discussion that goes on in ##crawl-dev and crd and the dev wiki and mantis and then go to wordpress or tavern and pretend it never existed. This is why devs don't bother making real responses to you! It's not because your extremely popular opinion is unpopular, it's because you don't put even a modicum of effort into figuring out what's going on, you just attack strawmen instead.
Why are you pretending that someone playing the game, or reading this forum, or reading the blog, who learns that something was removed would ever learn any of those things exist (aside from mantis for bug reports, and the post you just made), and that everyone is only choosing to ignore them for some reason instead of not knowing they exist?
Slime Squisher
Posts: 368
Joined: Thursday, 11th April 2013, 21:07
Cimanyd wrote:Why are you pretending that someone playing the game, or reading this forum, or reading the blog, who learns that something was removed would ever learn any of those things exist (aside from mantis for bug reports, and the post you just made), and that everyone is only choosing to ignore them for some reason instead of not knowing they exist?
Steel Neuron wrote:Also, time zones are a problem. I miss most of the discussion in ##crawl-dev because I'm asleep through most of it.
Cimanyd wrote:duvessa wrote:You people ignore all the PUBLIC discussion that goes on in ##crawl-dev and crd and the dev wiki and mantis and then go to wordpress or tavern and pretend it never existed. This is why devs don't bother making real responses to you! It's not because your extremely popular opinion is unpopular, it's because you don't put even a modicum of effort into figuring out what's going on, you just attack strawmen instead.
Why are you pretending that someone playing the game, or reading this forum, or reading the blog, who learns that something was removed would ever learn any of those things exist (aside from mantis for bug reports, and the post you just made), and that everyone is only choosing to ignore them for some reason instead of not knowing they exist?
Shoals Surfer
Posts: 253
Joined: Monday, 20th June 2016, 15:27
duvessa wrote:I'm not pretending that. What I am doing is expecting that people should learn a little about the development process before they complain about the development process. "I have a bit of an unpopular opinion, but I think DCSS would benefit a lot from making an extra effort when about to remove something and instead focus on reworking" is pretty clearly accusing the devs of Doing It Wrong, even though they did consider "reworking" HE (and MD and pretty much every other removed feature) first - HE removal was under discussion for years.Cimanyd wrote:duvessa wrote:You people ignore all the PUBLIC discussion that goes on in ##crawl-dev and crd and the dev wiki and mantis and then go to wordpress or tavern and pretend it never existed. This is why devs don't bother making real responses to you! It's not because your extremely popular opinion is unpopular, it's because you don't put even a modicum of effort into figuring out what's going on, you just attack strawmen instead.
Why are you pretending that someone playing the game, or reading this forum, or reading the blog, who learns that something was removed would ever learn any of those things exist (aside from mantis for bug reports, and the post you just made), and that everyone is only choosing to ignore them for some reason instead of not knowing they exist?
Temple Termagant
Posts: 14
Joined: Sunday, 15th January 2017, 00:47
removeelyvilon wrote:if anything, this just shows that there is a problem in player/dev communication
Shoals Surfer
Posts: 253
Joined: Monday, 20th June 2016, 15:27
Dungeon Master
Posts: 3160
Joined: Sunday, 5th August 2012, 14:52
Steel Neuron wrote:I have a bit of an unpopular opinion, but I think DCSS would benefit a lot from making an extra effort when about to remove something and instead focus on reworking, even if the rework involves a complete mechanical U-turn.
removeelyvilion wrote:If anything, this just shows that there is a problem in player/dev communication. I guarantee you that 99% of palyers don't know these information channels even exist. How could anyone blame them for coming to certain conclusions? And you know, the devs could just tell people a little about their thought process. On the official crawl page. Like one sentence. That a rework was considered but ultimately scrapped because of X. Something among these lines. where people could see it. Then some things wouldn't be so ill-received. Because they'd know the context. It's the small things sometimes that make the difference.
Tartarus Sorceror
Posts: 1762
Joined: Monday, 14th October 2013, 01:05
duvessa wrote:You people ignore all the PUBLIC discussion that goes on in ##crawl-dev and crd and the dev wiki and mantis and then go to wordpress or tavern and pretend it never existed. This is why devs don't bother making real responses to you! It's not because your extremely popular opinion is unpopular, it's because you don't put even a modicum of effort into figuring out what's going on, you just attack strawmen instead.
Shoals Surfer
Posts: 253
Joined: Monday, 20th June 2016, 15:27
Lasty wrote:Communication is a good thing, and theoretically there are always ways to improve it, but you seem to be putting the burden entirely on the dev team and taking no personal responsibility for your part in the communication process. It sounds a lot like you're saying that you're going to have a vocal opinion no matter what and it's the dev team's responsibility to make sure that you need do no work to inform that opinion. What responsible commentators do is try to determine if they understand a topic well enough to have an informed opinion, and then ask themselves if that opinion is worth voicing.
Shard1697 wrote:duvessa wrote:You people ignore all the PUBLIC discussion that goes on in ##crawl-dev and crd and the dev wiki and mantis and then go to wordpress or tavern and pretend it never existed. This is why devs don't bother making real responses to you! It's not because your extremely popular opinion is unpopular, it's because you don't put even a modicum of effort into figuring out what's going on, you just attack strawmen instead.
There's kind of a fundamental impasse there because almost all young people have absolutely no interest in using something as dated as IRC. Also like, I've been playing this game for years and I don't know where the dev wiki is or how to talk to other people on it, and I'd never want to communicate on mantis... expecting anyone who wants to engage with devs to use these web 1.0 as hell things to do so is not really reasonable. Do you actually expect me to read a bunch of old IRC logs to keep up to date with discussion(also, again, not even sure where these are! I'm sure someone could tell me, but how the hell would I find something like that out on my own)? A forum is so much more convenient and reasonable in so many ways.
Tartarus Sorceror
Posts: 1698
Joined: Saturday, 18th June 2016, 13:57
Shard1697 wrote:There's kind of a fundamental impasse there because almost all young people have absolutely no interest in using something as dated as IRC. Also like, I've been playing this game for years and I don't know where the dev wiki is or how to talk to other people on it, and I'd never want to communicate on mantis... expecting anyone who wants to engage with devs to use these web 1.0 as hell things to do so is not really reasonable. Do you actually expect me to read a bunch of old IRC logs to keep up to date with discussion(also, again, not even sure where these are! I'm sure someone could tell me, but how the hell would I find something like that out on my own)? A forum is so much more convenient and reasonable in so many ways.
Dungeon Master
Posts: 1613
Joined: Thursday, 16th December 2010, 21:54
alefury wrote:Since there hasn't been a ##crawl-dev digest for a while I decided to write one. It covers one week, September 1-7. These digests are a lot of work, plus it's easy to get severely backlogged if you are busy or away for even a few days, and sifting through IRC logs to catch up is no fun at all. This is too much to expect a single person to do (thanks to evilmike for writing so many of these!), and it is the reason these digests have stopped coming. So it would be good to have some kind of rotation. If you're a ##crawl-dev regular and feel up to doing one of these, just mention it on IRC and add your name and the time you want to cover to the "digest" learndb entry!
Tartarus Sorceror
Posts: 1739
Joined: Tuesday, 13th March 2012, 02:48
Shard1697 wrote:There's kind of a fundamental impasse there because almost all young people have absolutely no interest in using something as dated as IRC. Also like, I've been playing this game for years and I don't know where the dev wiki is or how to talk to other people on it, and I'd never want to communicate on mantis... expecting anyone who wants to engage with devs to use these web 1.0 as hell things to do so is not really reasonable. Do you actually expect me to read a bunch of old IRC logs to keep up to date with discussion(also, again, not even sure where these are! I'm sure someone could tell me, but how the hell would I find something like that out on my own)? A forum is so much more convenient and reasonable in so many ways.
Temple Termagant
Posts: 14
Joined: Sunday, 15th January 2017, 00:47
Shard1697 wrote:duvessa wrote:You people ignore all the PUBLIC discussion that goes on in ##crawl-dev and crd and the dev wiki and mantis and then go to wordpress or tavern and pretend it never existed. This is why devs don't bother making real responses to you! It's not because your extremely popular opinion is unpopular, it's because you don't put even a modicum of effort into figuring out what's going on, you just attack strawmen instead.
There's kind of a fundamental impasse there because almost all young people have absolutely no interest in using something as dated as IRC. Also like, I've been playing this game for years and I don't know where the dev wiki is or how to talk to other people on it, and I'd never want to communicate on mantis... expecting anyone who wants to engage with devs to use these web 1.0 as hell things to do so is not really reasonable. Do you actually expect me to read a bunch of old IRC logs to keep up to date with discussion(also, again, not even sure where these are! I'm sure someone could tell me, but how the hell would I find something like that out on my own)? A forum is so much more convenient and reasonable in so many ways.
Slime Squisher
Posts: 365
Joined: Monday, 7th January 2013, 08:22
Tartarus Sorceror
Posts: 1667
Joined: Saturday, 11th October 2014, 06:12
Location: Brazil. RS, Santa Cruz do Sul.
Temple Termagant
Posts: 14
Joined: Sunday, 15th January 2017, 00:47
Slime Squisher
Posts: 365
Joined: Monday, 7th January 2013, 08:22
Tartarus Sorceror
Posts: 1762
Joined: Monday, 14th October 2013, 01:05
graemelion wrote:And yes, you are expected to keep up with discussion logs, which are also listed in the dev wiki in order to participate in dev discussions.
Temple Termagant
Posts: 14
Joined: Sunday, 15th January 2017, 00:47
Shard1697 wrote:I do not think this is in any way a reasonable expectation for "anyone who wants to put forward an opinion about changes".graemelion wrote:And yes, you are expected to keep up with discussion logs, which are also listed in the dev wiki in order to participate in dev discussions.
Tartarus Sorceror
Posts: 1762
Joined: Monday, 14th October 2013, 01:05
duvessa wrote:You people ignore all the PUBLIC discussion that goes on in ##crawl-dev and crd and the dev wiki and mantis and then go to wordpress or tavern and pretend it never existed. This is why devs don't bother making real responses to you! It's not because your extremely popular opinion is unpopular, it's because you don't put even a modicum of effort into figuring out what's going on, you just attack strawmen instead.
graemelion wrote:And yes, you are expected to keep up with discussion logs, which are also listed in the dev wiki in order to participate in dev discussions.
Tomb Titivator
Posts: 832
Joined: Wednesday, 17th April 2013, 13:28
Shard1697 wrote:Keep in mind that for basically every other videogame under the sun, the expectations required for discussing the game and having your opinion taken seriously is "you have played the game and want to talk about it".
Crypt Cleanser
Posts: 746
Joined: Thursday, 5th December 2013, 04:01
Tomb Titivator
Posts: 832
Joined: Wednesday, 17th April 2013, 13:28
Steel Neuron wrote:I have a bit of an unpopular opinion, but I think DCSS would benefit a lot from making an extra effort when about to remove something and instead focus on reworking, even if the rework involves a complete mechanical U-turn.
Steel Neuron wrote:No matter how wrong we may think they are, we have to admit that the number one criticism you hear around for DCSS is excessive removal of content. I'm not validating that opinion, I'm just stating that it is a common one. Focus on rework before removal would help alleviate this and boost public perception. Come on guys, we could even be tricky with it: Step 1: Rework HE, Step 2: Rename HE, and you have a brand new race!
Dungeon Master
Posts: 3160
Joined: Sunday, 5th August 2012, 14:52
DCSS has been maintained by volunteers and players as an open source project for nearly a decade. The developers primarily discuss the game's design in ##crawl-dev on Freenode, with additional discussion and planning on crawl-ref-discuss and the devwiki. Many developers and players also discuss the game's design here on the Tavern's Game Design Discussion (GDD) subforum, where posters can propose changes to the game and discuss existing proposals or game mechanics.
##crawl-dev logs: The search function is slow, but the logs offer a convenient way to catch up on recent dev discussions about the game.
Quazifuji wrote:Chances are, the way they're most likely to find out that there are better places to learn about the dev's thought process is from threads like this one where they get yelled at for not already knowing and frequenting those places.
Shoals Surfer
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Joined: Monday, 20th June 2016, 15:27
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