The Tavern

I'm going to keep this short, because I don't think it needs to be long.

I spent around a year or so of playing this game not understanding how weapon delay worked with weapon skill at all, and not really knowing when I should go for beefier weapons and when I should stop training weapon skill. It is not as bad now that base delay and mindelay are shown in the weapon description, but to figure out how much skill I should have I still just look at a sheet that has it written down for each-there is simply no way I am going to memorize a formula in order to play a game properly, and I think most people feel the same way. It's unfun, and when I'm playing a game I don't like having to get information from outside of the game itself to play it on what I feel is a basic, near-required level.

I'm not going to propose any change to actual mechanics, but rather just what the game tells you. Personally, I would love it(and think it would REALLY help new players) if two UI/information additions were made:

a).In a weapon's description, it also tells you what delay you are currently at, and
b).a message to show up telling you that you have reached mindelay ( upon increase of weapon skill- "With your increased skill with [weapon type], you feel you have mastered this weapon!" )
'this weapon!' could be replaced with 'whips!', 'maces!', 'flails!' etc.

I agree about b.

Do you realize that @ basically tells you your current weapon delay? I just try for 'fast' or preferably 'quite fast' according to how heavy the weapon type is. With this info, I personally never bother to look up tables. I train til it's fast enough, then stop. Maybe start again later if I seem to have XP to burn and nothing better to spend it on (more skill is always better, hitting mindelay doesn't change that)

Sure, but it's vague what exactly 'quite fast' or whatever means, and unclear when you've reached the cap. I feel like adding what speed you're at, specifically stated instead of just described is a pretty logical evolution given the change to see base/min delay in a weapon's description. It's not really any more intrusive and it gives you more information to work with instead of obscuring it, and I've always hated non-specific representations of stats in games-eg, games where you have a life bar, but it doesn't tell you exactly how many HP you have left. Direct numbers are cool, and it's not like things like dexterity are described in 'You are quite dexterous', 'You are extremely dexterous', etc.
(in a similar vein I'm not super fond of the descriptions of stealthiness on the % screen, but I rarely play stealthy characters so it doesn't matter much to me and that's basically fodder for it's own thread, I think.)

Shard1697 wrote:Sure, but it's vague what exactly 'quite fast' or whatever means, and unclear when you've reached the cap. I feel like adding what speed you're at, specifically stated instead of just described is a pretty logical evolution given the change to see base/min delay in a weapon's description. It's not really any more intrusive and it gives you more information to work with instead of obscuring it, and I've always hated non-specific representations of stats in games-eg, games where you have a life bar, but it doesn't tell you exactly how many HP you have left.

Well, you're gonna hate Crawl, because it hides numbers intentionally, as a design decision.

Direct numbers are cool, and it's not like things like dexterity are described in 'You are quite dexterous', 'You are extremely dexterous'

The point of the design decision is that actually, they are well described by that method (and it prevents people from obsessing over point differences in a particular stat when they should be looking at overall strategy and whether it's 'good enough' instead)

savageorange wrote:Well, you're gonna hate Crawl, because it hides numbers intentionally, as a design decision.

Except it only hides some numbers. I'd be more willing to just take this as an answer and leave it if the decision wasn't made relatively recently to directly show base/min delay in a weapon's description(which, from what I've seen, was pretty much entirely positively received). It's simply a pain to not have current delay right there alongside them, and I don't think it adds any kind of value to the game.
People clearly do obsess over min-maxing regardless(basically everyone who puts a lot of time into the game will always shoot for mindelay if melee is an important part of the character they're running, which it often is), and I really don't agree that they're well-described by that method.

That's a good point.. perhaps it's just because nobody's written a patch for it that it is not implemented.

At least one of the devs wants to get rid of mindelay because it's confusing. That would be my preferred solution, because I agree that it is confusing. But it could still be good to have a clearer UI in the meantime.

Min delay is only confusing because the game doesn't really tell you about it. If a weapon's description just said what skill you need then it would be very intuitive - "I need this many levels to use that better weapon well".

Something like the armor encumbrance rating might work. Armor encumbrance is sort of a good guideline for the minimum str you should have to wear any piece of armor. It's not a hard breakpoint like min delay, but it's kind of the same idea.

So why not have a "Weapon skill rating" or something similar. That number represents the skill level required to reach min-delay with that weapon.

damiac wrote:Armor encumbrance is sort of a good guideline for the minimum str you should have to wear any piece of armor.

no it isn't

Here's a patch which adds your current delay to the description of your currently wielded weapon, for those that don't wish to do the math, or just plain old like to have the "current" number along side the min/max number.

Minimum delay already gets a lot more attention than it deserves when it comes to weapon skill training and I think making it stand even more under the spotlight is a disservice to new guys.
Besides you can already see what your current attack speed is every time you swing your weapon.

Let me just say that I 100% agree with you, Shard. And thanks for the patch, Siegurt. Having to do the math every time I want to know my weapon speed is annoying and not fun. I'd like to see something along the lines of DPS as well. Right now, if I want to compare two weapons, I have to use a freaking spreadsheet. That's extremely poor game design in my opinion.

Shard1697 wrote:b).a message to show up telling you that you have reached mindelay ( upon increase of weapon skill- "With your increased skill with [weapon type], you feel you have mastered this weapon!" )
'this weapon!' could be replaced with 'whips!', 'maces!', 'flails!' etc.

That sounds awesome.

How would that interact with Ashenzari/Okawaru skill increase? Would it only declare on the base value, the modified value, or both?

Unfortunately DPS is also dependent on the enemy your facing, as well as a host of possible temporary effects, a weapon doesn't have a single "DPS" rating which is easily compared to other weapons.

What would probably be nice is if fsim was just available in non-wizmode, even more optimal would be if you could 'Compare weapons a and b against a given opponent using my current skills' and have it just tell you which was better, (Preferably by what percentage)

Siegurt wrote:Unfortunately DPS is also dependent on the enemy your facing, as well as a host of possible temporary effects, a weapon doesn't have a single "DPS" rating which is easily compared to other weapons.

What would probably be nice is if fsim was just available in non-wizmode, even more optimal would be if you could 'Compare weapons a and b against a given opponent using my current skills' and have it just tell you which was better, (Preferably by what percentage)

I understand the complexities, but even a quick baseline vs AC/EV 0/20/50 with DPS for a proc (maybe a small table or matrix?) or something like that would be immensely helpful. I've never even heard of fsim until now. It's interesting, but really I think what people would like is some kind of simple, fast way to evaluate weapons. It's something we do a great many times in each game and most players don't even understand how to properly do it.

Here's your fast, simple way to evaluate weapons (note this fails for elec/pain/disto but if you really care there's fsim. For big weapons elec is about the same as flaming/freezing; for small weapons elec is basically doubling your base damage).

Count 2 to-dam enchantment/slaying as 1 base dam for 2h weapons; count 3 to-dam enchantment/slaying as 2 base dam for 1h weapons

Then just do base_dam/current_delay; biggest number wins. Flaming/freezing multiply these by 5/4, vorpal by 7/6, holy wrath by 7/4 when it works.

If you really want to account for accuracy differences then you could do something like +3 accuracy is +1 to-dam enchantment.

If you need something more correct (you mostly don't) than this there is fsim.

I think we have different definitions of "fast and simple", man. Do you really expect folks to do all these calculations and memorize those ratios? That's not a fun kind of game in my opinion.

crate wrote:For big weapons elec is about the same as flaming/freezing; for small weapons elec is basically doubling your base damage).

It's been a while since I've done the math, but I think the elec brand is roughly the same as +9 or so to-dam against not-relec monsters. Not sure about disto or pain though.

e: I mean, the average is the roughly same, obviously the variance is going to be way larger.

Elec is 9+d15 damage 1/3 of the time,

(9+(15/2))/3 = 8.5

That's 8.5 more average damage, which is the equivalent of +17 damage enchantment, which with crate's rule of thumb would be equal to +8.5 more base damage for a two-handed weapon, or 11.5 more base damage on a one-handed weapon.

skjarl wrote:I think we have different definitions of "fast and simple", man. Do you really expect folks to do all these calculations and memorize those ratios? That's not a fun kind of game in my opinion.

Just do what the rest of us do. If you're a melee guy, pick a weapon school and equip the biggest one (read: highest base damage) you can find. Occasionally you will find a lesser weapon with silly enchantments, which you can use for a bit, but we're aiming high. Once there are no more bigger weapons, enchant the heck out of your main squeeze, especially if it has a good brand. Acceptable alternatives to "biggest weapon" include lajatangs and, esp. if you're using a shield, demon whips. Don't switch schools unless you find something on the level of Plutonium Sword. I think that about sums it up.

Weapon delay is a problematic design that everyone finds imperfect. Weapon comparison is fine; assessing the effectiveness of your equipment options is part of the game.

If you mention demon whips, then why not demon trident and eveningstar? I think those are worthy alternatives. dTrident is a bit slower but has reaching and evening star has a huge base damage for a one-hander. Oh and maybe even enhancer staves sometimes?

Oh, sure, if you're going one-handed, demon tridents and eveningstars are great to pair with your shield of choice; a nice option for characters who want to shore up weak defenses or a lack of armour slots. And if you've got elemental spell school skills and some evocations, enhancer staves are grand, especially Earth (likewise for necromancy and Pain, natch).

But now we're deep into the weeds and far off topic, so I'll stop. Probably wouldn't hurt to move this whole aside to advice.

Siegurt wrote:What would probably be nice is if fsim was just available in non-wizmode, even more optimal would be if you could 'Compare weapons a and b against a given opponent using my current skills' and have it just tell you which was better, (Preferably by what percentage)

This would be awesome.

Nthing the "you have mastered your weapon!" being relatively unobtrusive and generally pleasant thematically. Also, perhaps an inventory coloring to mark weapons you have at mindelay?

What do you mean "mastered"? You haven't mastered it untill you have 27 in the weapon skill and probably fighting. Anyway, I think that for the sake of newbies, we just need clear numbers to be shown - base delay, min delay and skill level for min delay. That's it. Like this: base delay - 1.5, mindelay - 0.7 at 16 weapon skill. Isn't it that simple?

I think you guys are all a little too caught up in the desire to know exactly which weapon is better and by how much. If you're trying to compare two weapons, just use them. If you can't tell which one is better by whacking stuff with it, then the difference is negligible and use whichever suits you better (usually the higher base dam one in my opinion). No math involved!

As for mindelay, once again, go whack something with it. If you're at x turns per swing (where x is the min delay shown on the weapon screen), you're at mindelay. If not, keep training your weapon. The further you are from x, the more skill you need (by a factor of 2).

I don't like the idea of a message for "you have reached mindelay". An option in the rcfile to color weapons once they're at mindelay would be nicer interface-wise, but it should not be default. I don't think crawl needs to encourage the mindset that it's important to always be keeping close track of all stats.

Base delay and min delay are both shown. To get the skill level necessary to achieve min delay, multiply the difference by 20. I have an antipathy towards formulae, but this is pretty simple.

The Tavern

Weapon delay/Weapon skill training is unintuitive

Weapon delay/Weapon skill training is unintuitive

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Re: Weapon delay/Weapon skill training is unintuitive

Re: Weapon delay/Weapon skill training is unintuitive

Re: Weapon delay/Weapon skill training is unintuitive

Re: Weapon delay/Weapon skill training is unintuitive

Re: Weapon delay/Weapon skill training is unintuitive

Re: Weapon delay/Weapon skill training is unintuitive

Re: Weapon delay/Weapon skill training is unintuitive

Re: Weapon delay/Weapon skill training is unintuitive

Re: Weapon delay/Weapon skill training is unintuitive

Re: Weapon delay/Weapon skill training is unintuitive

Re: Weapon delay/Weapon skill training is unintuitive

Re: Weapon delay/Weapon skill training is unintuitive

Re: Weapon delay/Weapon skill training is unintuitive

Re: Weapon delay/Weapon skill training is unintuitive

Re: Weapon delay/Weapon skill training is unintuitive

Re: Weapon delay/Weapon skill training is unintuitive

Re: Weapon delay/Weapon skill training is unintuitive

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Re: Weapon delay/Weapon skill training is unintuitive

Re: Weapon delay/Weapon skill training is unintuitive

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