Hybrid advice?

[ZipZipskins]

Hey all!

I just posted a YAFVP about a MiBe that I won with recently. In that thread I asked about hybrids, but I figured I'd start one here! I'm looking for a somewhat beefy hybrid race/background combination, and being still relatively new to Crawl, some advice on skilling beyond "axes to min delay, survivability next" and general playstyle beyond "run in, hack things with axe." I don't necessarily need a tank, but someone who's not gonna collapse under every ogre sneeze from now until Pandemonium would be nice.

Moreover, is there a general hybrid class "template" that people follow? I know that hybrids are really common among the more skilled and frequent Crawl players from lurking around, but even using search I'm having a rough time bringing up specific information about how to go about tackling hybrid classes in general. I got some good advice in the other thread, but I was hoping for some more detailed information. Thanks!

[rebthor]

MfIE and HONe are two pretty beefy races that are hybrids by design. I mean, I guess you could turn them into blaster style characters, but the initial spellbooks and aptitudes push them into a hybrid style.

I don't have much experience with HONe, but for MfIE you want to train ice and conjurations until you find your first polearm, then get that polearm close to reasonable delay. Usually I skip throw frost and learn summon ice beast first, then either ozocubo's armour or throw icicle depending on which I feel will increase my immediate survivability. I also usually skip condensation shield, mostly because I don't remember to use it which makes it a complete waste of spell slots.

For gods, pretty much everyone is good except Trog. I tend to stay away from Okie too because summon ice beast is really good. I'd lean toward Fedhas due to him being really strong and rain being even more beneficial for an Mf.

Edit: One more thing, playing a hybrid can be a lot trickier than something like MiBe because you end up in a lot more situations where you have to figure out what skills to train in the beginning game. MiBe is really easy -> main weapon skill to min delay. Then armour, then fighting and/or dodging. Revisit the weapon step as you get better weapons from Trog and the floor. With a hybrid, because you're spreading things a little thin, you do have to be more careful. At the same time, the Mf apts in polearms makes this much easier as compared to something like a DsIE.

[dassem]

Well, I think that the advice here and in your other thread sounds good.

IMO the ice-based hybrid route is pretty easy. Your goal is to survive until you get freezing cloud online, then that's it for 3-runes and it leads nicely into ice storm for the late game or more runes...

I like starting as a wizard, since you've got lots of other options for when things go wrong (meph cloud, summon imp, blink). And, since you cannot just tank things so much as you're used to, be forewarned that they will go wrong and you'll need those escape options.

I like polearms, since they're great for poking away at stuff while it has to sit in your freezing/flaming/toxic cloud. So a MfIE always seemed nice, especially with their swimming ability. Similarly for undead/Nagas and poisonous or mephitic clouds.

Arrows can work well for the same ranged damage through clouds idea, although management gets tedious.

To guarantee that you get the right spells, I'd suggest Vehumet, but if you're lucky with books, then Mahkleb works well, since he replaces the extra HP you lose in melee.

I like hybrids, but often get bored with and then kill off characters who don't have something to catch my attention. Both of my 15-rune wins were with DS (essentially ice-based hybrids). The reason for that, I think, is that the mutations hold my interest; not just that if you get a strong set of mutations, things get easy. I do best when I play into the strengths of the mutation: Extra HP, spines, freezing, or lifestealer, for example would be great for a hybrid; but there's a chance that a bad set could force you into the stealth/stabber path. DS work well as hybrids as you'll start to get mutations at just about the point where the diluted skills of a hybrid class will really hurt the most.
For DS, I often throw in a bit of necromancy for regeneration/sublimation, and later earth to shatter into vaults. Earth is also strong against things like bone dragons, so I suppose a DDEE might suit your purpose in an unusual way.

As too many of my successful characters were ice-based, currently I am trying to get a HOFE started for pretty much the same beefy hybrid you want. They've got good fire, fighting, and axe aptitudes so they seem quite easy.

[pratamawirya]

I like MiFi of Oka. Oka is a good hybrid god; if you have Heroism, you can worry less about raising your combat skills. (-3 and -4 aptitudes don't matter that much, really.)

[Davion Fuxa]

I like MiFi of Oka. Oka is a good hybrid god; if you have Heroism, you can worry less about raising your combat skills. (-3 and -4 aptitudes don't matter that much, really.)

I agree, Okawara is a good Hybrid God. On a High Elf Warper I'm playing I started with Okawaru, and worshiping him greatly help augment my character with some basic gear while his abilities augmented my character ability to survive tougher encounters.

Anyhow, if you are looking to make a Beefy hybrid character, you should consider using a species that has aptitudes in skills and spell schools you like to use; as well as gimmicks you can live with. Then couple that with a background suited to what you think you can branch off from.

[crate]

If you are starting as an IE or Ne I suggest you get used to how good or not good hitting things with 0 weapon skill is. (Actually I hit a lot of things with 0 weapon skill with every "caster" I play, but this is probably just me.)

You have to specialise early on because you need your xp to actually make you stronger or you will have big problems. So that means at the least getting pain to max power and learning all the spells you want in your starting book (for Ne) or getting freeze to max power and then getting at least one of throw icicle/summon ice beast (for IE).

[ZipZipskins]

Thanks for all the advice, some things to think about. It seems like most people prefer to branch out from caster-types in the early game, which for some reason I have a notoriously difficult time keeping alive. Enemy spellcasters particularly seem to ruin my day, I often can't get away fast enough. Though I guess realistically it's a matter of not engaging in the first place. Anyway, stuff to consider =)

Edit: And happy new year, everyone! XD

[Davion Fuxa]

Thanks for all the advice, some things to think about. It seems like most people prefer to branch out from caster-types in the early game, which for some reason I have a notoriously difficult time keeping alive. Enemy spellcasters particularly seem to ruin my day, I often can't get away fast enough. Though I guess realistically it's a matter of not engaging in the first place. Anyway, stuff to consider =)

Edit: And happy new year, everyone! XD

Most people are wanting to pick up that starting spellbook when they pick a spellcaster background, but you don't have to do that if you feel you can play one of the non-spellcaster with a better chance of surviving. Pick a Melee class and maybe change the God choice to Kiku or Ashenzari, perhaps start with one of the non-Trog Zealots and then branch into spells as you progress - you can do just fine making a hybrid out of the non-spellcaster backgrounds.

[Fungus]

Enemy spellcasters particularly seem to ruin my day, I often can't get away fast enough. Though I guess realistically it's a matter of not engaging in the first place. Anyway, stuff to consider =)

I was going to suggest Naga as a hybrid, because they have LOTS of pros with only one real con (slow movement). I still think it's worth considering because it teaches you to choose your battles carefully and always take stock of your escape options since running away rarely works.

[Psieye]

Thanks for all the advice, some things to think about. It seems like most people prefer to branch out from caster-types in the early game, which for some reason I have a notoriously difficult time keeping alive. Enemy spellcasters particularly seem to ruin my day, I often can't get away fast enough. Though I guess realistically it's a matter of not engaging in the first place. Anyway, stuff to consider =)

Edit: And happy new year, everyone! XD

I'm just as happy taking say, a Gl and making him a hydrid as making one as a Wz. The main question is: "can you stay on top of the 'killing power' curve?" This gets easier later on, e.g. post-Lair.

Enemy spellcasters particularly seem to ruin my day, I often can't get away fast enough. Though I guess realistically it's a matter of not engaging in the first place. Anyway, stuff to consider =)

I was going to suggest Naga as a hybrid, because they have LOTS of pros with only one real con (slow movement). I still think it's worth considering because it teaches you to choose your battles carefully and always take stock of your escape options since running away rarely works.

Not a problem for a NaTm, but not every Na is a NaTm indeed.

[crate]

If you for sure want to both cast spells and hit things--especially if by "cast spells" you mean more than just charms--it's simply easier to begin with a book (instead of as e.g. gladiator) for at least two reasons:

1) Finding a decent weapon is reasonably easy, finding specific books is very hard unless you worship kiku or veh.
2) You usually want to wear light armour at least early on if you want to cast spells, so much of your str will be wasted if you start as a fighter-type class (whereas the int/dex from starting as an elementalist or such won't be wasted).

However probably you should note that I wouldn't call for instance a plate-armour hofi who learns haste in crypt a "hybrid" at all, I would just call that a melee character. "Hybrid" to me would be something like a necromancer or summoner or wizard who hits things a lot but also casts spells that aren't just combat buffs (conjurations/summons etc.).

[Psieye]

1) Finding a decent weapon is reasonably easy, finding specific books is very hard unless you worship kiku or veh.
2) You usually want to wear light armour at least early on if you want to cast spells, so much of your str will be wasted if you start as a fighter-type class (whereas the int/dex from starting as an elementalist or such won't be wasted).

Agreed in general on both counts. I was thinking specifically of the Kiku case - more specifically, the need for Str to hold lots (25 iron dragon chunks) of meat on a Simulacra-spam character. It certainly isn't a requirement to make good use of Kiku but I started the game knowing that's what I wanted to do.

It's better to start with high Int and put points into Str than the other way round. That doesn't mean Str first, Int later has no benefits whatsoever: the Str early on to carry big corpses down staircases was useful.

[Konebred]

Ghoul Venom mages of vehemet are pretty fun. Just get meph cloud castable, and you can dump it on yourself if needed. Work your claws for a bit, and eventually your casting will go down when you get 2 pips in piety. Dump all stat raises in to int, and level claws until you start getting gifts then go with whatever element you prefer. Fire and air work well together if you find ignite poison. Earth is always a solid choice since iron shot is awesome. You will have a bit of a delay leveling it, but I never work air above 4 anyways so it wont take long to get over the penalty.