God for a SpEn?

[Lyrick]

I'm a beginner to Crawl! The farthest I've gotten is about dlvl 15 or so I think with a Kobold Berserker, but I wanted to try something other than hacking everything to bits, and I find spellcasting pretty fun in general.

I got hooked to spriggan enchanters recently and today I've found a ring of Wizardry on one, then a deep blue altar to Sif Muna not long after. I'm not exactly sure what I want to do but would it hurt to be a spellcaster and an avid stabber? And would Sif be a nice god for that? Or would there be better gods for my plans?

[crate]

kiku

[Siegurt]

Also (Weirdly) Zin, Fedhas, Ash, Okawaru

[and into]

Makhleb is also great for a SpEn (though I guess Makhleb is great for anyone really). Nemelex too.

I mean, SpEn is really strong and you could worship Sif and do just fine, but if you want to maximize your chances to win, I'd say Kiku, Makhleb, Okawau and Nemelex would be my top choices. I'm sure Fedhas is really good too.

The main thing is that Sif's channeling is not necessary or particularly helpful for an Enchanter. (Secondary thing is that Enchanter's starting book is extremely strong and you will be fine just supplementing it with the basic utility spells that you find as you progress in the game, without Sif's burying you under five dozen books.)

[diviton]

Ashenzari gets my vote, easily.

As a stabber, you want to limit the likelihood of being swarmed, or having to walk great distances and have numerous stealth checks before stabbing an enemy. Ashenzari allows you to see where every enemy is behind walls and allows you to have an idea of how dangerous they are, before you even see it (and more importantly, before it even sees you)

Ash is my favorite God because he gifts you the most powerful thing in Dungeon Crawl. Knowledge. SpEn seriously benefit from this. You can very easily plan your stabbing routes and find the best method for sneaking up on an enemy, or track it's movement and hide behind walls until it moves into an ideal location. Plus, towards the late game (or even post game if you're feeling brave) when your Hexes aren't cutting it anymore, Ash will allow you to relocate your experience into other skills, so you can switch from being a stabber to a specialist in some sort of conjuration instantly. Or whatever you want, really.

Go Ash, dude.

[and into]

Ash is my favorite God because he gifts you the most powerful thing in Dungeon Crawl. Knowledge.

I dunno, pain branded weapon by mid- to late Lair or legions of wandering mushrooms or healing-on-kills plus tier 1 and 2 demons on demand are all pretty powerful.

Ash is a really strong god, don't get me wrong, but I oddly feel that your post undersells him and oversells him, at the same time. Skill Transfer is sometimes nifty but not a major consideration, unlike Ash's other active skill, Scry, which is very good. The passive mapping and creature detection are great, certainly, but the skill boosts are also a big draw.

[diviton]

Right, Skill Boosts are great for anyone, I was just highlighting what I think makes him tailor made for a SpEn. Stabbing is very powerful, but can be dangerous when things don't go off the way you were hoping. Spriggans are great for escaping, but Ash makes it a lot less likely for you to get caught in a bad situation to begin with, either due to his Detect Foo, or Scrying. SpEn also suffer from something that most classes don't, which is their main skillset becoming obsolete by the end of the game since everything has high MR or See Invisible. Of course, even mid-game, you don't want to be relying exclusively on Hexes, but when you finally decide they aren't worth your time anymore, Ash is the one God that can make sure that EXP doesn't go down the drain.

SpEn is such a strong combo in general that there are many Gods that can prove powerful. I just feel like Ash had to be designed with stabbers in mind. (I realize he almost certainly wasn't, I'm just pointing out the synergy =P)

[Lyrick]

Go Ash, dude.

I played Nethack before this. Curses and red lines in my inventory invoke instantaneous dread in me. I've played crawl enough now to realize that its not quite as drastic here but i'm not quite used to the concept of curses being ok

[diviton]

I had the same hangup, to be honest. I had this mental barrier for the first few floors, but I quickly realized being cursed is a minor nuisance at best and eventually becomes a non issue.

Then again, when I pulled off my SpEn of Ash 15 rune victory, I found the Spriggan's Knife very early, so cursing that was a no brainer.

[duvessa]

I don't understand why people like Okawaru on SpEn at all, unless they're playing 0.7. SpEn needs less experience than probably any other character in the game, so heroism is not particularly good. I suppose finesse is somewhat good if you want to kill SInv monsters with melee, but there are gods that give you way, way better ways to do that (Kiku, Nemelex, Jiyva, Lugonu, Makhleb, Elyvilon...)

[Weeksy]

If you want to be more melee focused, I would go Okawaru, but (in terms of decreasing liability on spells) Makhleb, Ashenzari, Fedhas, Lugonu, Kiku, and Vehumet are all good choices. One of the great things about SpEn is that once they get invisibility castable, they are incredibly flexible, able to go into almost any archetype (needlestabber, spellblaster, summoner, necromancer, hybrid figher). The problem is that you have to choose a god before you decide to focus.

I'm very biased, because I love blowgun stabbers, and so would take a SpEn towards Okawaru's needle gifts most of the time, but you can do anything, and nothing is best until you decide what you want to go for. Spells are probably better than needles (but less fun IMO), but really any god is playable.

[Baldu3]

I don't understand why people like Okawaru on SpEn at all...

A long time ago when I didnt know about the bots or the forums, couldnt remember what half the monsters did, and though that 20 in traps was a necessity for zot, I got a win with SpEn of Okawaru, and while the skill boosts were indeed very useful (i wasnt max level because i ran away from half the bads in the dungeon and my skill training was very poor), i ended up liking the god for the bullets since I shot about a million of them (hasted/invisible spriggan slinger/stabber... i needed all the help...).

I would not do that again now, but back then with my very limited knowledge and abilities, that worked out for me.

On topic, ash and kiku are great for your combo, and for more information that is up to date on anything related to crawl you can check this site: http://crawl.develz.org/info/index.php .

edit: dunno why i posted this, best answer is right there under the first post asking the question..... must.... control.... neeed..... tooooo.... possttt......

[Hirsch I]

Zin is surprisingly good for Sp right now, as you can use recite an kite most foes easily,then kill them while disabled, dont need meat, imprisoning and sanctuary will deal with most foes that you cant just run away from, and most mutations suck on an Sp. try it sometime.
but if you are looking for awesomeness: Ash and Nem. crawl easy mode.

[HenryFlower]

Here are some paths I've played SpEn and similar on (although fair warning the farthest I've gotten SpEn is Z5 due to my need to kill things rather than run away):

Basic plan: http://crawl.develz.org/info/index.php?q=hyperbolic, play as inivistabber
The basic issue is what to do about high MR see/sense invis creatures. Default is run away. But if not:

1) SpEn of Kiku, hope to acquire a QB to pain brand, otherwise pain brand your basic dagger after Orc: painstabber + necromancer
2) SpEn of Ash, abusing Ash knowledge and passwall + geomancer + shatterninja (my Z5 guy found a dagger of distortion which paired very well here)
3) SpEn of Nemelex, exploit high Evo to card summon spam what's hard to kill
4) SpEn of Jiyva: Find early temple or get down to altar in Lair, convert to Jiyva, get easy slime loot. I've had problems with this one because of stat shuffle. Not sure how to play.
5) SpEn of Oka: haven't played, but SpBe is surprisingly fun and SpEn of Oka should be easier. Needlestabber
6) SpEn of Makhleb: haven't played, but I assume demonspam what you can't otherwise kill.

[Sar]

I would pain a dagger/cutlass as soon as I get 6* (well, actually I would wait another floor I guess to prevent a situation where I drop to 5* while travelling to an altar due to piety decay), which usually happens mid-Lair.

[HenryFlower]

I would pain a dagger/cutlass as soon as I get 6* (well, actually I would wait another floor I guess to prevent a situation where I drop to 5* while travelling to an altar due to piety decay), which usually happens mid-Lair.

Yeah, the tradeoff is qb from possible ?acquire vs faster time to painstick. My experience is that by mid-Lair, I've just gotten invis online, and am still working dodging and fighting. I generally beeline to invis rather than divert exp into necro. Accordingly, I don't feel a huge urgency to brand unless I have the exp already invested or ready to invest in necro. But I'd be the first to admit that I might be playing it wrong.

[wakeman]

I've been trying SpEn out finally, few questions for ya'll

1 - Can Stabbing get you through to Zot: 5? What about The Slime Pits?

2 - Any advice on the extended game? I understand ninja-ing runes but I can't imagine how you'd, for example, get through the Tombs or kill Cerebov (can't leave that fucker alive)?

[diviton]

I've been trying SpEn out finally, few questions for ya'll

1 - Can Stabbing get you through to Zot: 5? What about The Slime Pits?

2 - Any advice on the extended game? I understand ninja-ing runes but I can't imagine how you'd, for example, get through the Tombs or kill Cerebov (can't leave that fucker alive)?

1. Your stealth skill will definitely help you in Zot, as will a Spriggan's speed. Stabbing, however, is tough. The lungs in Zot:5 are wide open and you'll be getting a lot of stealth checks from monsters that all See Invisible. Orb Guardians don't have any resistances and can be confused, but their MR is high enough that it's better to just kill them. In Slime, a lot of things are vulnerable to stabbing, but a stabber usually wants to use walls to sneak up on things and standing next to walls is a bad idea in Slime.

2. Same advice as before. Use Ashenzari. For extended, you don't want to be relying on Hexes and stabbing. Yes, you'll still be stabbing things that don't see you, but you're going to need a kill button and Ashenzari will instantly allow you to choose the exact school of magic you'd like to moves you Hexes experience to. His Scrying ability makes it laughably easy to Shatter Ninja the runes in Pan. Hell is a little harder, but mostly works the same. Tomb you shouldn't be Shatter Ninja'ing, but rather very slowly drawing things to the staircase. With your high stealth rating, this shouldn't be too difficult. Do not fight on the third floor though. Always draw the enemy up the stairs before you attack. The only thing that can ruin this is a Flying Skull shrieking and waking up the whole floor. Even then, it's doable. Just keep pulling to the stairs being mindful of torment. Even though this board has a strangely unjustified hatred of Necromutation, it makes tomb a lot easier.

[crate]

Why would you want to kill Cerebov? You don't get any reward for doing so. It is both much easier and much safer to just avoid him.

[diviton]

While I completely understand the urge to kill every unique you come across, I completely agree that it's a terrible idea.

If you're like me and don't like letting things live, just try to focus on the theme of being a thief in the night. Get in, get the Rune, get out. It's fun.

[cerebovssquire]

this board has a strangely unjustified hatred of Necromutation

I don't think this board has a consistent position on Necromutation, but those who do criticise it generally are against the idea that it is good outside of certain areas of extended and the idea that it is required for any certain area of the game. SpEn with a lot of exp getting it for Tomb is probably a more reasonable example of getting it (though I think you can ninja the rune just fine without it, and also think that Death's Door would be better for that purpose).

[damiac]

This board has an unjustified hatred of Necromut, foo storm, chei, nagas, elf3...

If there seems to be a wildly disproportionate insistence that something that seems good is terrible, that means it's actually really good, at least on this board.

[and into]

This board has an unjustified hatred of Necromut, foo storm, chei, nagas, elf3...

If there seems to be a wildly disproportionate insistence that something that seems good is terrible, that means it's actually really good, at least on this board.

Yeah all of the posters have exactly the same opinions on all those things.

Anyway, what does it mean to have "an unjustified hatred" of Elf 3, exactly? I'm wary of doing it on many characters and I would generally advise people to be extremely cautious if they do decide they want to do it, because it is a lot more dangerous than it may appear especially to new players. "Hatred" has absoutely nothing to do with it.

Speaking for myself: Fire and Ice storm are extremely strong spells, they are awesome, but they also require a very large investment and so it doesn't always make sense to get them, even when they are available (which is far from guaranteed). So if someone says something like, "What should my fire elementalist look like at the end of the game?" Saying "Get fire storm" is very misleading, actually. Is that spell actually available? And what else is available—did book of the warp drop? Do you have access to death's door? Absolutely there are times when it makes sense, but it is hardly a given. Again, "hatred" has absolutely nothing to do with it.

[pickled_heretic]

I recommend Ash - if you are lazy, but still want a good power boost. Gives you plenty of exp to branch into blasting or other magic when you need it. No new escape mechanics but you are a fucking spen anyway.

[Lasty]

This board has an unjustified hatred of Necromut, foo storm, chei, nagas, elf3...

If there seems to be a wildly disproportionate insistence that something that seems good is terrible, that means it's actually really good, at least on this board.

It seems to me as though there's been a much larger presence of this anti-advice sentiment on the forum recently. Please keep in mind that when someone disagrees with you, that does not mean that they hate you, and when someone disagrees with your valuation of something, that does not mean that they hate that thing.

There are a lot of features in crawl that are not intended for every character or every situation or even every player. Many of these are in some sense of the word suboptimal for many or most characters and situations. That doesn't mean that they are bad for the game or that advice-giving players hate them. It means that there are probably trade-offs and considerations that these players have identified that you may well have missed or misidentified.

Please keep in mind that most of the time, most of the people in the forum are trying their best to give what they see as good advice in response to the questions posted here, and attempting to correct bad or misleading advice when it is present. If you consistently get what you see as hostile and persecutory responses, you may want to consider whether you are choosing to interpret neutral responses as hostile, or whether you are doing something that might provoke hostility.

[Mattchew]

I will nth the suggestion for Ash, especially if you have been scared of him before now. Ash is a great god for any char (skill boosts are huge), but especially good for a sneaky one. He's a very fun god.

[wakeman]

So I got a pretty good SpEn of Ash going, farthest I've ever gotten with one. Cleared Spider and Shoals, about to do Vaults. Couple questions:

1) Currently rocking a 3/4 dagger of distortion and steam dragon armour. Should I dump my enchant scrolls into these or hold out for something else for extended? I banished Nikolai so won't get his sabre of elec for a while at least.

2) Where should I start putting my experience? With Ash I've got min delay for short blades, 10 fighting, 20 dodging, 9 shields, 18 spellcasting, 23 stealth and enough haste/charms for Invis/Haste at 1%. I'm thinking I might delve into Earth?

[HenryFlower]

Dagger of Distortion is stick of making things go away quickly. Enchant it up. Just be prepared for a crowded Abyss. Steam dragon armor as well unless you want to hold out for mottled.

You have the basic SpEn skills down; could ascend with no additional skills. However, Earth pairs well with Ash and the shatterninja approach is fun. What about tloc for cblink and ctele?

[nago]

I'd max dodging and stealth, raise fighting to 15ish then get some way to dispatch dudes with sinvis (a dagger of distortion can be enough, btw). Iron shot on the face may be a solution, if you're inclined to that path.

[moocowmoocow]

If you find Shadow Creatures that can easily take care of things you can't stab as well, and costs relatively little skill.

[Sar]

I would bother with Fighting before maxing Dodging (and possibly Stealth, but I have no idea how to play "stabbers" and how actually important stealth is). Dodging around 20 usually means your EV is good.

[wakeman]

Last SpEn got ganked, new one's looking at a 3/3 Dwarven Vampiric Dagger, a 3/10 short sword (flaming, Str + 3) and and 3/4 quick blade.

Any advice which I should stick with? I'm using the short sword for now, but I know dagger's get more stabbing bonus and quick blades are obvs awesome. Generally, is it best to stick with the quicker smaller short blades or go with short swords/sabres for SpEns?

[and into]

Last SpEn got ganked, new one's looking at a 3/3 Dwarven Vampiric Dagger, a 3/10 short sword (flaming, Str + 3) and and 3/4 quick blade.

Any advice which I should stick with? I'm using the short sword for now, but I know dagger's get more stabbing bonus and quick blades are obvs awesome. Generally, is it best to stick with the quicker smaller short blades or go with short swords/sabres for SpEns?

I guess use a whole over dwarven vampiric dagger until you find the other seven-tenths of the short sword or quarter of the quick blade, whichever happens first.

Personally I'd go with the +10 short sword of flaming, I believe it will do better damage at all levels of skill. If you happen to be going kiku or lugonu somehow though that quick blade is literally the perfect weapon to pain- or distortion-brand.

[dck]

also if you're not going kiku yet going kiku would increase your odds of winning considerably.

[Lasty]

Last SpEn got ganked, new one's looking at a 3/3 Dwarven Vampiric Dagger, a 3/10 short sword (flaming, Str + 3) and and 3/4 quick blade.

Any advice which I should stick with? I'm using the short sword for now, but I know dagger's get more stabbing bonus and quick blades are obvs awesome. Generally, is it best to stick with the quicker smaller short blades or go with short swords/sabres for SpEns?

I know from experience that a 3/10 short sword of flaming is good enough to take you to Zot. By the time you actually enter Zot, you should have an alternative that's better against OoFs, or else you'll just need to avoid them/run past them.

If you get enough combined slaying and/or get a decent brand on it, the quick blade will be better.

[Bodhi]

Try Jiyva if you can find an altar. She has a reputation as an endgame god which I don't entirely understand

Slimify kills just about anything you'll encounter in a normal game in one shot apart from orbs of fire, you never have to worry about hunger, and you already get one of your 3 runes for free

[Sandman25]

Try Jiyva if you can find an altar. She has a reputation as an endgame god which I don't entirely understand

She greatly decreases loot.

[and into]

Try Jiyva if you can find an altar. She has a reputation as an endgame god which I don't entirely understand

Slimify kills just about anything you'll encounter in a normal game in one shot apart from orbs of fire, you never have to worry about hunger, and you already get one of your 3 runes for free

Well the funny thing is that apart from the never being hungry, a starting god is basically this already (Lugonu) and another (Ely) approximates the first part. (Of course other things differ and Jiyva has a lot to offer.)

Anyway, I don't really think of Jiyva as an "endgame" god but I could see why one might describe Jiyva that way. But it has nothing to do with loot, but rather with the fact that outside of rare altar vaults, you can only worship Jiyva well past the time you have had a chance to worship every other god. So either you intentionally go Jiyva from start and abjure any religion for a while (not too hard usually but riskier than taking a different god) or else you switch later in the game.

[wakeman]

Last SpEn got ganked, new one's looking at a 3/3 Dwarven Vampiric Dagger, a 3/10 short sword (flaming, Str + 3) and and 3/4 quick blade.

Any advice which I should stick with? I'm using the short sword for now, but I know dagger's get more stabbing bonus and quick blades are obvs awesome. Generally, is it best to stick with the quicker smaller short blades or go with short swords/sabres for SpEns?

I know from experience that a 3/10 short sword of flaming is good enough to take you to Zot. By the time you actually enter Zot, you should have an alternative that's better against OoFs, or else you'll just need to avoid them/run past them.

If you get enough combined slaying and/or get a decent brand on it, the quick blade will be better.

So I saw ring of slaying +6/+6 (!) in a shop. Was saving up to buy it when I FOUND ring of slaying +6/+5! So should I switch to the quick blade at this point? I have enough scrolls to attempt to get it up to +9/+9 but don't have a brand weapon scroll or any weapon brand spells. I'm not doing Kiku or Lugonu so would Freezing be the best brand if I can get it?

[Bodhi]

Try Jiyva if you can find an altar. She has a reputation as an endgame god which I don't entirely understand

She greatly decreases loot.

Definitely not true

There's very little loot actually lying on the dungeon floor, so you don't get a swarm of jellies until you've explored/dealt with most of the level

And your consumables are fully protected so you don't have to worry there

[Sandman25]

There's very little loot actually lying on the dungeon floor, so you don't get a swarm of jellies until you've explored/dealt with most of the level

And your consumables are fully protected so you don't have to worry there

It depends on play style I think. I am a slow player who uses autoexplore a lot so when I finally arrive to loot rooms, they are empty. Last time I was playing early Jiyva I could not identify potions in my inventory for about 10 floors, found very few jewelry/potions/scrolls etc.

[Lasty]

So I saw ring of slaying +6/+6 (!) in a shop. Was saving up to buy it when I FOUND ring of slaying +6/+5! So should I switch to the quick blade at this point? I have enough scrolls to attempt to get it up to +9/+9 but don't have a brand weapon scroll or any weapon brand spells. I'm not doing Kiku or Lugonu so would Freezing be the best brand if I can get it?

If it were me, I would be inclined to use both slaying rings, enchant up the quick blade, and use it. If you can find a scroll of brand weapon you can get it to vorpal, which is not at all bad for Zot, where a lot of the most dangerous monsters resist both fire and cold. Without knowing what you're character has left to do, it's hard to say which brand you should aim for.

If Forest exists in your game and you plan to do it, you may wish to hold off until after Forest, since it has a decent chance to spawn a branded or enchanted quick blade. If you have invis, you can also do Hall of Blades to look for a branded quick blade.

Another option would be to switch between brands with branding spells: flaming, freezing, draining, and even pain and distortion are available as spells, and on an unbranded quick blade, you can use them to switch to the most useful brand for the current fight.

Even just using the two slaying rings with your short sword will be pretty strong.