Draft new tournament rules


Official tournaments, but also any competition, challenge of the week or other player initiative for competitive crawling.

Dungeon Master

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Joined: Thursday, 27th November 2014, 19:12

Post Monday, 4th May 2020, 14:13

Draft new tournament rules

Hi everyone, in preparing for the 0.25 tournament we're looking at overhauling the tournament scoring system. I would appreciate both general impressions and specific feedback on the point values in the "banner score" section.

The current draft is available here.

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duvessa, Kramin42, shping, VeryAngryFelid

Dis Charger

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Post Monday, 4th May 2020, 18:26

Re: Draft new tournament rules

From the first paragraph:
  Code:
the big problem is the points system strongly favors very high playtime/day, as well as a particular playstyle (streak nemelex choice combos and then win a bunch of high-value parked characters before grinding out as many combos as you can).

I don't understand how the new system is supposed to help here. I have thought long and hard about this, but I came up with nothing. It seems to me that the top players have to play as many games as before plus even a few special games that were not needed before (examples: a game won at low XP and a game with 5-6 ziggurats).

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Monday, 4th May 2020, 19:16

Re: Draft new tournament rules

First Win: Makhleb will also rank those speed demons who are the first to win a game in the tournament. This category is ranked by the finish time of a player's first win in the tournament.
First All Rune Win: This category is ranked by the finish time of a player's first all rune win in the tournament.
This incentivizes players to quit and restart their first game and first all-rune game if they aren't fast enough. I get that this is intended to prevent players from doing hundreds of speedrun attempts to improve their score by marginal amounts, but I think the practical effect is going to be that the serious players still do hundreds of speedrun attempts and just quit a bunch of them instead of winning, until they get that one perfect game.
Win rate: Cheibriados believes in being slow and steady, and will recognize players who are careful enough to excel consistently. This category ranks players by their win percentage.
Winrate play is actively incompatible with both types of speedrunning. This means that players will get their speedrunning points, then spam wins after that to improve their winrate points. This will really favour high playtime.

Other than that it seems basically conceptually fine, I guess I'll link to my prior comments on the subject since nothing's really changed since then. In particular I want to call attention to streak points: recent Crawl versions are extremely easy to streak in, so the streak points are effectively just a floor on how many games you're required to win in order to compete.

Tomb Titivator

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Post Monday, 4th May 2020, 19:48

Re: Draft new tournament rules

For
"Lowest Turncount Win: The Wu Jian Council favours the unquestioned excellence and efficient combat of the Sifu. The Council will rank players based on their lowest turn count win."
could you use the aut-count time instead of turn-count?
turncount is degenerate and encourages things like breadswinging. It should be removed wherever possible.

I still hope one day we can unambiguously use "turn" to mean "10 auts". I can't see any situation where I'd be happy that the game is counting player actions but is counting '5' as 100 actions and autotravel as hundreds of actions.

Dungeon Master

Posts: 219

Joined: Thursday, 27th November 2014, 19:12

Post Monday, 4th May 2020, 20:05

Re: Draft new tournament rules

duvessa wrote:
First Win: Makhleb will also rank those speed demons who are the first to win a game in the tournament. This category is ranked by the finish time of a player's first win in the tournament.
First All Rune Win: This category is ranked by the finish time of a player's first all rune win in the tournament.
This incentivizes players to quit and restart their first game and first all-rune game if they aren't fast enough. I get that this is intended to prevent players from doing hundreds of speedrun attempts to improve their score by marginal amounts, but I think the practical effect is going to be that the serious players still do hundreds of speedrun attempts and just quit a bunch of them instead of winning, until they get that one perfect game.


I think you misunderstand: this category is ranked by the time of day the player's first win happens, earlier is better. Restarting is a strict penalty. This is a generalization of the old "first, second, third" win of the tournament category.

Win rate: Cheibriados believes in being slow and steady, and will recognize players who are careful enough to excel consistently. This category ranks players by their win percentage.
Winrate play is actively incompatible with both types of speedrunning. This means that players will get their speedrunning points, then spam wins after that to improve their winrate points. This will really favour high playtime.[/quote]

I'll re-evaluate this one, but I expect that the harmonic mean comes to the rescue here: some players will play only for win rate, making the top of the win rate category filled by people without speed run debt; the speed-run debtors will be so far down that, because of the nature of the harmonic mean, they will do much better to improve their scores by battling upwards in the speed run categories or doing just about anything other than grinding out wins for win rate.

Other than that it seems basically conceptually fine, I guess I'll link to my prior comments on the subject since nothing's really changed since then. In particular I want to call attention to streak points: recent Crawl versions are extremely easy to streak in, so the streak points are effectively just a floor on how many games you're required to win in order to compete.


Low effort posting, come on. The proposed system does away with s/b/g points, early bird bonuses for weird cheevos, unbounded rune points, streak points in a sense (streak scoring is on relative length in its own category), unique deaths, killing players with ghosts, and many of the other problematic categories are made player-relative instead of a source of absolute points.

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duvessa

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Monday, 4th May 2020, 21:30

Re: Draft new tournament rules

By "nothing's really changed since then" I was referring to tournaments that have happened so far. Oobviously your proposed rules change things quite a bit, and for the better, but they're for a future tournament that hasn't happened yet! Sorry for the ambiguity of that.
ebering wrote:I think you misunderstand: this category is ranked by the time of day the player's first win happens, earlier is better. Restarting is a strict penalty. This is a generalization of the old "first, second, third" win of the tournament category.
Yes, I did misunderstand, I thought "finish time" meant the in-game time. My mistake.

Dungeon Master

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Joined: Thursday, 27th November 2014, 19:12

Post Tuesday, 5th May 2020, 03:30

Re: Draft new tournament rules

duvessa wrote:By "nothing's really changed since then" I was referring to tournaments that have happened so far. Oobviously your proposed rules change things quite a bit, and for the better, but they're for a future tournament that hasn't happened yet! Sorry for the ambiguity of that.


It appears I too misunderstood. No worries.

Mines Malingerer

Posts: 31

Joined: Saturday, 27th May 2017, 22:47

Post Monday, 11th May 2020, 00:21

Re: Draft new tournament rules

I love the winrate category! I would put win rate under Elyvilon since he/she/they is the god of not dying.
"ot see" = to see
I appreciate the all rune win order.
I'd remove "all the time," because it is out of context.
Maybe put fastest real time under Trog?
"; and" = comma instead of semicolon
perhaps, "In this category, players earn 3 points per distinct rune of Zot collected; 1 point per branch entered, 1 point per branch end."
chapioning = championing
"an additional point" just write "1 point". People are trying to speed read this.
"and are ranked by this score." redundant
"rank players according to this score." redundant
"and will rank players based on the number of such" redundant
"completing two Ziggurats counts as 56 floors." So is it repeatable? Or repeatable twice? 27x2 = 54 ... Not 56.
for each members' high scores. = for members' high scores.
Streak Length - does this stack with individual streaks? Rated how? How many points??
Clan Piety Score - explain which categories stack with individual points/rating/score from the identical category.
So piety is counted twice? The best streak is counted twice? In other words, which individual categories are discluded from clan score/rating?
Clans are ranked in the following categories, = Clans gain rating in the following categories, OR: Clans score points in the following categories,
(Consistently use either rating or points. It's confusing to use 'ranking' to refer to both leaderboard position and to cumulative points. Can just say: Clans are ranked by - OH!!)
Okay I get it. Instead of clan points we get 13 clan leaderboards, with the ... wtf? Call it an overall clan ranking instead of an overall clan rating. Rating implies gaining points, ranking implies leaderboard position. And then provide an example on a spreadsheet. You NEED to give examples or everyone will get confused.
Make it clear that a higher rating or score means a ranking closer to 1, and the clan with the average ranking closest to 1 is the winner! I think this is way too confusing. Jagex has proven that players like big numbers, and the whole incremental genre has proven that players like big numbers going up! So trying to lower your standing in 12-13 different categories is just lame.
I have no clue what the harmonic mean means. Give examples. Or better yet, just make points for every clan category and add a multiplier so that they all count towards the total clan points. That way we can have big numbers again. Also why was the main source of points entirely removed? Allocating background combos to individual players required a lot of collaboration and specialization. Is the point to make it so that players can get nice scores without playing? Yet we have more free time than ever... I'd rather earn points rather than having to learn the harmonic mean function. Is there a guide on how high score is calculated in-game?
"Tier 3: After becoming the champion of Ru and abandoning Ru, become the champion of Ru again." wut
Heretic should have a cap on how many times it is counted per game.
If clan wins are hard-capped then why are Nemelex wins not capped? Soft caps are better.
I like that we can't park characters. I heavily dislike that there is negligible value to playing outside your two best species. And if you do decide to stop playing deep dwarf and your next favourite species then you only get points if you get the best score out of what - 3440 players? Also Oka isn't the god of winning all the time.

So instead of playing a variety of species and backgrounds, it's a turncount tournament.
So we have to win in under 20k turns and 3 hours, and one banner for winning 27 different species and 24 different backgrounds. Great. My fastest turncount is 7.5hrs and my fastest turncount is >50k. So I'm useless to my clan.

And say you get an amazing turncount win. Most likely it will only count for a combo high score instead of a background high score. You have to beat every other single player for that species and for that background? If it's gonna be a turncount tournament, then at least get more than one player get points per species and background.

You don't even lose combo points for dying. I agree that parking is an unfair advantage to players close to multiple servers, but now every single member of the clan has to be a turncount player. Oka isn't even the god of winning all the time. He doesn't have a reliable escape and three species can't even wear armor.

Do Clan Nemelex' Choices on one combo stack between players?
Do clan banner score banners stack between players?
"The clan is awarded points in the same way as an individual piety score using all of the members' games." This wording is good. Use clearer wording for clan nem and clan banner so that I know what is meant.

Yeah... It's annoying that I'm completely unprepared for the new format. I personally never play for turncount or speed, so I guess that makes me unsuitable for a clan. The devs really believe that out of six players, no one can win on multiple species? Encourage specialization, yet no points for winning every species and winning every background across all members' games. This is stupid. Give points for clans that clear each species+background.

I didn't know breadswinging was a thing. If we're having a turncount tourny then we need an easy to use breadswinging macro that stops upon monster detection or custom %-hp, and more than one high score slot per species/background. Why not have the new tournament rules as a new format, and clans and players get ranked both in the old and new formats? That's how competitive speedrunning is done when there is a rule change. Both formats get ranked.

Question: If I haven't found Cheibriados by D:4 then should I just suicide..? What if my wanderer doesn't have max intelligence? Suicide? Or should I just pick the strongest background for every species and - how does turn count even work for stairs and petrify? Should I rush statue form? Or play BaAK CeAK DDAK DEAK DsAK DrAK FeAK FoAK GrAK GhAK GnAK HaAK HOAK HuAK KoAK MfAK MiAK MuAK NaAK OpAK OgAK SpAK TeAK TrAK VpAK VSAK hoping for a lightning rod? Gonna spend a lot of time scumming xl:1 abyss. Guess it's time to get the old 0 winrate account up and running.

ebering wrote:Unfortunately FakerFangirl your post went a bit stream-of-consciousness reflections on your personal strategy in this rule set so I might have missed some things, but I think your assessment that this system is heavily-turncount focused is just wrong.

True, true. Because I SUCK at turncount :D
So I'm gonna go for a 5-game streak again.

ebering wrote:there are 255 points awarded to the species/background high scores, the remaining combos, if won grant a total of 1147 points.

Good :) I'll look up some of the unplayed combos from last tournament.
Last edited by FakerFangirl on Sunday, 17th May 2020, 15:21, edited 1 time in total.
Free dynast!

Tomb Titivator

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Post Monday, 11th May 2020, 15:42

Re: Draft new tournament rules

To explain the harmonic mean:
the harmonic mean of x, y, z is 3/(1/x + 1/y+ 1/z)

which means, to give an example:
if you completed more combos than anyone else (1st place), 4th in turncount, 5th in the real-time speedrun, and 100th in winrate, and didn't try in any of the other catagories, your total 'position' is
16/(1/1 + 1/4 + 1/5 + 1/100 + 0 + 0 + 0) = 16 / 1.46 = 10.96
You score better than anyone with a higher position than yourself.
(I think there are 16 categories in which to compete)

Perhaps it's easier to think of it as:
being 1st gives you 1 point,
being 2nd gives you 1/2 point,
being 3rd gives you 1/3 point,
etc.
try getting more points than anyone else.

Every catagory is worth just as much time as every other catagory, if you think you're in the top 3/ top 10 /top 100.

For what it's worth, I like this system.

I'd try to get a quick win, then call it a day, to score highly in the winrate category and one other category, which would get me an overall 'position' pretty close to 16. I'll probably die and fail, but whatever.
This format allows for a good player to get a good score with a very modest time investment.

.

Also, please use aut-count not turn-count.

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Kramin42

Dungeon Master

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Post Wednesday, 13th May 2020, 17:26

Re: Draft new tournament rules

I've updated the draft again, thank you for the feedback regarding typos and wording clarity. It now consistently uses "score" for points and "rank" for ordering.

As for what the harmonic mean is, these draft rules are a design doc and not the final webpage; they include a link to the wikipedia article introducing the topic. I will definitely include some examples on the main tournament webpage.

In terms of combo scores: last tournament not every possible combo was won, only 439 of the 638 possible combos. So if you find battling it out for the top MiBe score can't be done, try winning one of the unwon combos; unless you're fighting for species high score you can get the same number of points for winning an offbeat combo as you can for retaking a difficult high score. It's definitely possible to get 1st place in the combo high score category without taking any species or background high scores: there are 255 points awarded to the species/background high scores, the remaining combos, if won grant a total of 1147 points.

Unfortunately FakerFangirl your post went a bit stream-of-consciousness reflections on your personal strategy in this rule set so I might have missed some things, but I think your assessment that this system is heavily-turncount focused is just wrong.

Snake Sneak

Posts: 128

Joined: Friday, 26th April 2013, 05:09

Post Thursday, 14th May 2020, 11:19

Re: Draft new tournament rules

Exploring the harmonic mean idea, lets say we have 4 categories: winning, streak length, highscore, realtime; and 4 players A, B, C, D.

example rankings:
  Code:
winning     streak      highscore       realtime
1. A,B,C    1. A        1. A            1. B
2. D        2. B, C     2. B            2. A
            3. D        3. C            3. D
                        4. D            4. C


final ranking with harmonic mean of ranks:
1st: A at 1.143
2nd: B at 1.333
3rd: C at 1.920
4th: D at 2.824

My main gripe is this system is hard to reason about for players. How much would player C improve their harmonic mean by beating player D's realtime record?
Spoiler: show
C->1.846, D->3.0


This is mostly a display issue: You can keep the final rank generated by this system, but instead of showing the harmonic mean just add up points as petercordia suggested:
A: 1+1+1+1/2 = 3.5
B: 1+1/2+1/2+1 = 3
C: 1+1/2+1/3+1/4 = 2.083
D: 1/2+1/3+1/4+1/3 = 1.417

Now player C can tell that going from position 4 to 3 in a category will get (1/3-1/4) additional points, but with all these fractions and decimals it's still awkward to calculate and compare. I suggest multiplying everything by 1000 and rounding to integers, giving these points for ranks in categories:
1: 1,000
2: 500
3: 333
4: 250
etc (could have a minimum of 1 for simply qualifying for the category)

This makes it easy to see that going from 4th to 3rd in a category nets you 83 points (1/3-1/4=0.083), and you can also easily see how many points the player you knock down will lose, and where you will end up in the final overall ranking. Rounding does add the possibility of two people appearing to have the same score but actually being ranked different when calculated precisely, but this should be very unlikely at higher ranks. You could also use a different multiplier like 1,200 (no rounding until 1200/7).

I made a similar suggestion on discord but thought it might be helpful to have an example and elaboration.

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chequers

Mines Malingerer

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Post Monday, 25th May 2020, 22:14

Re: Draft new tournament rules

ebering wrote:if won

Thank you for clarifying this.
Free dynast!

Dis Charger

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Post Wednesday, 3rd June 2020, 04:44

Re: Draft new tournament rules

Okay, so is this the real thing?
https://crawl.develz.org/tournament/0.25/

The way how total score is calculated is a bit confusing. The rules say:
  Code:
The points received are: 10,000 / rank in category. Your overall rank is based on the total number of points gained across all categories.

"Based on" is vague, and I cannot figure out how it is done. It is not a sum, because nobody has more than 10k point (4k plus change is the max). So is it an average? No. Is it an average not counting the zero points? Maybe. In this case, scoring some points in a category is worse than scoring 0. Is this reasonable? Not likely.
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Zot Zealot

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Post Wednesday, 3rd June 2020, 05:30

Re: Draft new tournament rules

Yes, that page is the real thing, although it's still being worked on. Your overall point score is an average of all categories, including categories you scored 0 in. I'll update that sentence in the rules to be clearer.

What made you discount it being the average? Some of the display maths is possibly dodgy, but it should be showing values within 1 point of a player's "true" score.

Tomb Titivator

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Post Wednesday, 3rd June 2020, 11:42

Re: Draft new tournament rules

The site looks nice, though also a bit unfinished.

some small things which could be improved:

  • 'ranked ∞' should probably be 'ranked last', since you have already clarified that players who are ranked last will get 0 points (but haven't explicitly said what 'ranked ∞' means)
  • In the category overviews (eg https://crawl.develz.org/tournament/0.25/win-rate.html) it would be nice if you also added the points to the table. (ie 10000/rank.) I know points depend only on rank, but it would clarify the interpretation of the tables and reduce the mental load of the site.
  • I find the player overview currently a bit confusing. Initially I didn't know whether I was looking at score or rank. If you show the points we could see that "total points = sum of points" (except that isn't the case currently :?: ) which would add some mental harmony to that page. Also some of the columns are currently too narrow to fit their title.
  • making the total points equal to the sum of the points in the various categories (rather than the average, as appears to be the case) would be clearer
  • please replace turn-count by aut-count

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chequers

Dis Charger

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Post Wednesday, 3rd June 2020, 17:23

Re: Draft new tournament rules

chequers wrote:What made you discount it being the average? Some of the display maths is possibly dodgy, but it should be showing values within 1 point of a player's "true" score.

Oops. I guess I fell victim of my small monitor. I did not see all the categories. Sorry.

Even after realizing this however, I had a hard time finding the scrollbar that revealed the missing columns. I had to go way, way down to the bottom of the page to find it. I guess maybe that is not the most fortunate structure.

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