0001247: remove missiles of reaping - Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup Tracker

Notes
(0003850) OG17 (reporter) 2010-04-02 19:05	I disagree - I think that getting a "free" companion regardless of magical skill is of interest to a ranged character, and darts are especially nice in the early game where something like an ogre can make a lot of difference. I also don't see why situationally switching ammo is at all undesirable - I'd think it's one of the more interesting aspects of having ammo brands. Reaping is plenty boring in a monsters' hands, though, I'll give you that. Maybe it could make the player sick? Or maybe it should make everything sick, both for consistency and to give the brand an effect that isn't entirely reserved for last hits. Sickness doesn't seem terribly useful in a player's hands anyway, so this shouldn't be an overall buff.

(0003858) KiloByte (manager) 2010-04-02 23:43	While I don't see a problem with having an effect vaguely similar to an existing spell, rewarding micromanaging the quiver to promote getting that last hit with a missile of reaping definitely should go. A possible solution would be to count percentage of damage did using items of reaping, but I'm not sure if that's enough.

(0006393) Timbermaw (reporter) 2010-07-19 03:44 edited on: 2010-07-19 03:47	Can't you just make the reaping effect last a few turns (or be permanent) for any creature hit with the missile? That said, I haven't seen reaping be even vaguely useful on my rangers. It's interesting but not very rewarding, in my experience. Idea: change it to a potion that you can apply to the weapon. Anything you kill, during the effect, raises from the dead.

(0006395) doy (developer) 2010-07-19 04:15	+1

(0006400) Kate (developer) 2010-07-19 15:49	Having the reaping brand apply a status effect to the enemy sounds like a nice idea - as it is, trying to inflict the killing blow on something using a dart of reaping is really quite annoying.

(0006401) KiloByte (manager) 2010-07-19 16:19	Marvin: that would still encourage weapon swapping, by making people hit the monster with just a single dart and keep the rest for other occasions. That could be avoided by tracking the percentage of damage, but since both doy and rob prefer to just remove the brand, I agree with them.

(0006403) Kate (developer) 2010-07-19 17:35	Yeah, I was going to suggest that the duration of the effect could increase as you deal damage with the reaping ammo or something, but then you'd still just switch to reaping ammo when things are nearly dead to add the status effect, and then kill it with another method. Removal sounds pretty reasonable as well. :P

(0006404) OG17 (reporter) 2010-07-19 17:48	How can "hitting the monster with just a single dart and keeping the rest for other occasions" be construed as a problem? Are players secretly exploiting the game by launching single curare needles? Are they still allowed to only use silver against vulnerable monsters, or to only quiver dispersal ammo when they want to blink something away? If it's explicitly intended that players not swap weapons like this, why is branded ammunition offered at all?

(0006406) Timbermaw (reporter) 2010-07-19 19:53	Yes, it's just that weapon swapping seems more annoying (and more of a chore) with reaping because: * You can do it anytime, there's no specific reason to swap. * As i said (and you disagree), the advantage you get with reaping is obsolete. I've never found the weak minion produced from it to be useful. * You never have enough reaping ammo. Partly because I think it disappears with 1 shot. Honestly, finding reaping ammo doesn't make me happy. At least.. why not make it last longer?

(0006407) OG17 (reporter) 2010-07-19 20:16	Really, "there's no reason to swap" and "there's not enough ammo?" Perhaps if you swapped, you'd have more ammo? And a companion's a lifesaver early on, while strong enemies make respectable zombies throughout the game. Reaping's only fundamental issue is that zombies can block further shots, though that mainly applies to heavy archers and can be worked around anyway.

(0006410) 256 (reporter) 2010-07-19 22:38	I'd be sad to see reaping go. It's reasonably useful early game and it's interesting. I think the better solution would be to buff/tweak it a little bit so that there's good reason to want to hit something with reaping more than just once. If you combined the ideas presented above (i.e. reaping causes sickness and the zombie effect only happens if more than 50% of damage was done by reaping branded ammo (but it should always happen then)) I think you would get something much more attractive. Maybe a small (~+0.5)damage bonus as well, but that might be too much. Alternately, and rather than removing reaping altogether, consider moving the reaping brand over to needles and giving it a ten turn timer (since it's pretty hard to actually deal a killing blow with a needle). Reaping might be a better fit flavor-wise for blowguns anyway and blowgun users are used to micromanaging ammo.

(0006412) Timbermaw (reporter) 2010-07-19 22:50	I'll suggest something that popped on my mind after OG's note. The main gripe i have with reaping is the one-use lastability. Changing to reaping for last hit is irritating for me, and if you don't you'll waste them all in a second. My suggestion: make reaping a status effect, and while the monster is hit with reaping missiles during the status, the missiles don't get auto-destroyed on use. Instead, give them a lastability according to their enchantment. **Example: you hit an ogre with full hp with reaping. that first missile is gone, since it inflicted the status. All subsequent reaping missiles have a chance to break based on enchantment value (just like normal missiles do). Also, instead, if you want, you can use another missile type. The creature will still respawn as a minion if it dies during the effect. (which can also be permanent) My suggestion would eliminate the bigger problem with reaping for me: having to switch, hit, switch back, ... which you can still do, but you can also use them as normal ammo if you want, leading to less switching.

(0006435) rob (developer) 2010-07-20 10:10	I've disabled generation, the code is still there. Will be easy to reenable once somebody implements a better version. I suggest taking the discussion to the wiki.

(0006437) KiloByte (manager) 2010-07-20 10:22	Note that we have scythes of reaping as well. They are less problematic since they are not a limited resource, yet some players may still be tempted to use a better+faster weapon for damage dealing and then finish them off with the scythe.

(0006438) OG17 (reporter) 2010-07-20 15:04	Um, isn't that why melee weapons would be blatantly more problematic? It's ridiculous to keep scythes in, whether the effect stays for ranged combat or not; situationally drawing from a mixed quiver is rather different than lugging an effectively-unbranded trash weapon around to last-hit things with - and "some players" would do this? Even if reaping was allowed on decent base types, any motor-functional player would still carry a duplicate with an actual combat brand; this is common sense, not some shady "temptation." Reaping melee weapons would need to have a gourmand-like work-in period, or a vampiric-like wield penalty, or to be merged with an otherwise usable brand such as draining. I didn't know the things existed until last night or I'd have mentioned it; seriously, who uses a scythe?

(0006445) Timbermaw (reporter) 2010-07-20 19:37 edited on: 2010-07-20 19:40	I think the scythe is cool (better than the missiles at least). It gives scythes a unique property that no other weapon can have. (regular scythes are bad like you said) 1 use missile weapon for last hit is not cool... so i agree with rob.

(0007282) b0rsuk (updater) 2010-08-17 11:18	The way ranged combat works, an extra ally is also an extra obstacle between you and target. Missiles of reaping would be interesting against (mostly player) summoners, but summoned creatures don't leave corpses.

(0011489) Sealer (reporter) 2011-03-05 09:16	At any rate remove reaping from okawaru's weapon gifts.

Issue History
Date Modified	Username	Field	Change
2010-04-02 18:25	rob	New Issue
2010-04-02 19:05	OG17	Note Added: 0003850
2010-04-02 23:43	KiloByte	Note Added: 0003858
2010-07-18 13:23	CaptainAmerica	Note Added: 0006387
2010-07-18 17:06	CaptainAmerica	Note Deleted: 0006387
2010-07-19 03:44	Timbermaw	Note Added: 0006393
2010-07-19 03:47	Timbermaw	Note Edited: 0006393
2010-07-19 04:15	doy	Note Added: 0006395
2010-07-19 15:49	Kate	Note Added: 0006400
2010-07-19 16:19	KiloByte	Note Added: 0006401
2010-07-19 17:35	Kate	Note Added: 0006403
2010-07-19 17:48	OG17	Note Added: 0006404
2010-07-19 19:53	Timbermaw	Note Added: 0006406
2010-07-19 20:16	OG17	Note Added: 0006407
2010-07-19 22:38	256	Note Added: 0006410
2010-07-19 22:50	Timbermaw	Note Added: 0006412
2010-07-20 10:10	rob	Note Added: 0006435
2010-07-20 10:10	rob	Status	new => resolved
2010-07-20 10:10	rob	Fixed in Branch	=> 0.8 development branch
2010-07-20 10:10	rob	Resolution	open => done
2010-07-20 10:10	rob	Assigned To	=> rob
2010-07-20 10:22	KiloByte	Note Added: 0006437
2010-07-20 15:04	OG17	Note Added: 0006438
2010-07-20 19:37	Timbermaw	Note Added: 0006445
2010-07-20 19:40	Timbermaw	Note Edited: 0006445
2010-08-17 11:18	b0rsuk	Note Added: 0007282
2011-03-05 09:16	Sealer	Note Added: 0011489

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