0002162: Remove the Cj[fire] book - Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup Tracker

Notes
(0006769) xyblor (reporter) 2010-08-01 01:30	The Cj[ice] book has 3 spells in common with Wz[frost]; this problem could be remedied by reducing the Wz books into a single fire/earth themed book, which would also help address the asymmetry created by the elimination of the Cj[fire] book. This is a mostly separate issue though, and probably more controversial.

(0006770) OG17 (reporter) 2010-08-01 01:38	Might as well get rid of CjIce while you're at it and ditch Cj/Re entirely. Swap IE's ice beast for bolt of cold, maybe. Also https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:job:magic_jobs_and_starting_books [^]

(0006771) Lemuel (updater) 2010-08-01 04:41	+1

(0006777) st (reporter) 2010-08-01 19:30	Cj[fire] is by far better than EE for earth conjurers

(0006781) ogaz (updater) 2010-08-02 01:15	I would say that says more about Geomancy than it does about anything else.

(0006785) RangerC (reporter) 2010-08-02 07:47	How about this for the only conjurer book: Magic Dart Throw Flame Stone Arrow Isky's Mystic Blast Bolt of Magma It has only one spell in common with FE/IE (so there's little overlap with those two classes). It DOESN'T have Mephitic Cloud. 2 spells are unique to this starting book, and it only shares two spells with one other starting book (Minor Magic_Fire). It builds to Bolt of Iron/LCS (the big Conj/Earth spells) better than any other current kit. The book is slightly slanted towards fire and earth, but if IMB is the primary spell, the character can go in any direction depending on which spellbooks they find. IMB might be a little strong for a starting book, so I left out the level 6 spell and MC to try and balance things.

(0006787) ogaz (updater) 2010-08-02 10:16	IMB and stone arrow are fairly similar; they're both medium-ranged spells that deal unresistable damage. Also, your book has no spells to improve survivability at all, it's just a bunch of single-target nukes and bolt of magma. I don't like.

(0006790) Lagus (reporter) 2010-08-02 14:09	Isn't that the very definition of conjurer?

(0006794) Lemuel (updater) 2010-08-02 16:22	Why does the game need conjurers at all?

(0006797) minmay (reporter) 2010-08-02 17:40	Why does the game need anything at all? It's variety. Though I do agree that conjurers have too much overlap with fire elementalists.

(0006800) xyblor (reporter) 2010-08-03 00:16	The game already provides a huge amount of variety simply though the sheer number of spells in the game. The spells that are suitable for starting books need to be organized into discrete and distinct casting backgrounds. I propose that we keep Cj[ice] and remove Wz[frost] instead. Here's the FR: https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2175 [^]

(0006802) OG17 (reporter) 2010-08-03 00:29	Conjurers offer very little variety - Wz books offer a broad useful toolset, and corresponding elementalists offer focused power. Cj's nothing but repackaged power (and meph).

(0006808) RangerC (reporter) 2010-08-03 03:10	I think there's a niche for conjurers (and maybe even Reavers); let's quickly look at what the elementalists cover: FE: Fire/Conjuration (6 spells) - Fe pretty clearly eliminate the need for a separate Fire conjurer (OP breaks this down nicely) IE: Ice/Conjuration (4 spells), Ice/Summoning (1), Ice/Enchantment (1) - Covers ice conjuration pretty well; while there are differences between IE and CjI, the playstyles does not diverge enough to require two separate classes for a slightly varying take on an ice blaster. EE: Earth/Transmutation (4 spells), Summoning(1), Earth/Conjuration (1) - An earth elementalist is pretty clearly NOT an earth conjurer, in fact you can play EE completely without Conjurations at all, and the capstone EE spell (Shatter) is not a conjuration. AE: Air/Conjuration (3 Spells), Air/Enchantment (3) - One of the conjurations is Static Discharge, which is infamously ineffective/unused. Another is Mephitic Cloud, which is not a direct damage source. There are a variety of play styles used as an AE, but 'blasting conjurer' is typically not one of them. So, I think there are two possible niches left open for conjurers: Conj/Earth Conj/Air Here's a slightly different version of the book proposed above: Magic Dart Throw Flame Stone Arrow Bolt of Magma Iron Shot Pretty much straightforward Conj/Earth blasting (with a touch of fire). Only one overlap with EE and definitely a different playstyle. The only issue is negotiating the jump from Level 3 (SA) to 5(BoM, 3 schools). There might need to be a bridge spell in there. I dropped IMB because I agree with Ogaz that it would trivialize Stone Arrow (but I disagree with the idea that Conjurers should have 'survivability' spells - a pure Conjurer should be all about blasting away. If the kit is difficult because of that, that's fine - not every start should be as easy as a Spriggan Enchanter). Magic Dart Throw Frost New Air/Conj Lvl 3 spell (Air/Conj is the only element combo without a level 2 or 3 spell, so this is actually needed anyway, I think (and with the crappiness of Static Discharge, there really is no level 4, either! - yes I know Mephitic Cloud is Conj/Air/Poison, I'm leaving it out intentionally to lessen the number of books with Meph). Isky's Mystic Blast Lightning Bolt Poisonous Cloud (basically Xyblor's good conj book idea from the wiki, tweaked a bit). This Conj build would be more about varying ways of doing damage (1 target/bolt/cloud progression for the last 3 spells), and the Earth build would focus on single target damage. Give one book to Reavers and one to Conjurers.

(0006809) TGW (reporter) 2010-08-03 05:14	I like RangerC's books.

(0006810) xyblor (reporter) 2010-08-03 05:55	@ RangerC: I agree with your analysis of existing backgrounds, but I don't think the similarity between Cj[ice] and IE alone is enough to warrant removing Cj[ice]. Yes they share two spells, but the rest are really quite different. The reason there aren't any conj/earth or conj/air books is that those elements don't have enough conjurations to make a decent book out of, unlike fire. The FE book is really great in this regard, with each spell doing damage in a different way. I don't think it's acceptable for a book to be as internally redundant as your earth book, with 4 of the 5 spells being simply different strengths of the same single-target principle. Your air book is better, but I don't know if it's an improvement over Cj[ice]. Inventing a new spell is kind of a big deal.

(0006833) OG17 (reporter) 2010-08-03 18:59 edited on: 2010-08-03 19:00	Any conjurations class is conceptually redundant, as elementalists provide themed ranged spells in a much more interesting manner - you don't need a special "shoot stuff" class when every class shoots stuff. If EE blasting spells don't offer sufficient blasting, earth needs a buff (and who cares if it's all literally conjurations or not, if tm fills the same role? "Conjurations" is meaningless). AE is much less blasty than the other elementalists, but air conjurations suck anyway, which needs to be addressed in itself. CjI and IE are basically identical for a conjurer in everything but the details, save for meph. It's the same playstyle, which again is what's important here.

(0007477) jpeg (manager) 2010-08-22 16:00	If I'm not interested in branching into Summoning or Enchantments, that's when I play Conjurers. The difference between Cj[frost] and IE is much greater than between Cj[flame] and FE, so I'm fine with axing the latter. Then again, Cj is my favourite background, so I'm obviously a bit biased. :) I don't see why Iskenderun's would appear in _any_ starting book.

(0007479) minmay (reporter) 2010-08-22 16:21	> AE is much less blasty than the other elementalists, but air conjurations suck anyway, which needs to be addressed in itself. Static Discharge sucks, Chain Lightning is maybe possibly very debatably slightly underpowered. The rest are quite useful in my opinion, and there are other excellent Air spells in any case. Also, training Air Magic to 15 is beneficial for summoning (air elementals are massively more powerful than the other elementals). Either way, I don't get why every elemental school needs blasting. aside: AE is probably my favorite background

(0007488) OG17 (reporter) 2010-08-22 18:35 edited on: 2010-08-22 18:36	Jpeg, a conjurer's choice between WzI and IE is much better than that of CjI and IE. IE sets ice conjurers up in a unique manner, while CjI is an uninspired wizard/power spell bundle. At least CjF tries to offer something different with its earth spells. Minmay, air conjurations are useful? Maybe if you're a fan of noise scrolls, uncontrollable attacks, and resistible damage. And every elemental school doesn't "need" blasting by definition, but as every elemental school already has lots of blasting, what's there should be worthwhile. If there's any confusion, I'm not saying that elementalists need to be played as conjurers, but that conjuring is covered by elementalists.

(0008303) rob (developer) 2010-09-09 17:24	Here's an idea: Remove bolt of fire from the book of flames; remove freezing clou from the book of frost; remove bolt of cold from conjurations(ice); remove fireball from conjurations(fire).

(0012413) Kate (developer) 2011-04-11 12:29	Closing, since it's on the wiki: https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:background:magic_backgrounds_and_starting_books [^]

Issue History
Date Modified	Username	Field	Change
2010-08-01 01:27	xyblor	New Issue
2010-08-01 01:30	xyblor	Note Added: 0006769
2010-08-01 01:38	OG17	Note Added: 0006770
2010-08-01 04:41	Lemuel	Note Added: 0006771
2010-08-01 19:30	st	Note Added: 0006777
2010-08-02 01:15	ogaz	Note Added: 0006781
2010-08-02 07:47	RangerC	Note Added: 0006785
2010-08-02 10:16	ogaz	Note Added: 0006787
2010-08-02 14:09	Lagus	Note Added: 0006790
2010-08-02 16:22	Lemuel	Note Added: 0006794
2010-08-02 17:40	minmay	Note Added: 0006797
2010-08-03 00:16	xyblor	Note Added: 0006800
2010-08-03 00:29	OG17	Note Added: 0006802
2010-08-03 03:10	RangerC	Note Added: 0006808
2010-08-03 05:14	TGW	Note Added: 0006809
2010-08-03 05:55	xyblor	Note Added: 0006810
2010-08-03 18:59	OG17	Note Added: 0006833
2010-08-03 19:00	OG17	Note Edited: 0006833
2010-08-19 17:22	jpeg	Relationship added	related to 0002314
2010-08-22 16:00	jpeg	Note Added: 0007477
2010-08-22 16:21	minmay	Note Added: 0007479
2010-08-22 18:35	OG17	Note Added: 0007488
2010-08-22 18:36	OG17	Note Edited: 0007488
2010-08-22 18:36	OG17	Note Edited: 0007488
2010-09-09 17:24	rob	Note Added: 0008303
2011-04-11 12:29	Kate	Note Added: 0012413
2011-04-11 12:29	Kate	Status	new => resolved
2011-04-11 12:29	Kate	Fixed in Branch	=> 0.9 development branch
2011-04-11 12:29	Kate	Resolution	open => no change required
2011-04-11 12:29	Kate	Assigned To	=> Kate
2011-10-22 02:20	Kate	Status	resolved => closed