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	<title>Comments on: Trunk updates, 8 February 2017</title>
	<atom:link href="http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/trunk-updates-8-february-2017/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>https://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/trunk-updates-8-february-2017</link>
	<description>Development live!</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 16 Mar 2026 09:52:57 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Stevie-poo</title>
		<link>https://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/trunk-updates-8-february-2017/comment-page-1#comment-2794</link>
		<dc:creator>Stevie-poo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Feb 2017 13:53:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/?p=3859#comment-2794</guid>
		<description>I like what you guys are doing.

Many times in the past I&#039;ve read the change logs and thought that the changes sounded pretty bad, but then when the next release has come out and I&#039;ve played it I&#039;ve realised that the game is much better as a result.

This game is by far my favourite roguelike and the only one I&#039;ve actually played until I could win.

Please keep up the good work and don&#039;t let the negativity in the columns get to you.  I there is a very loud minority of players that moan about every single thing they don&#039;t like, while the rest of us  are happy with the way the game is developing and normally say nothing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like what you guys are doing.</p>
<p>Many times in the past I&#8217;ve read the change logs and thought that the changes sounded pretty bad, but then when the next release has come out and I&#8217;ve played it I&#8217;ve realised that the game is much better as a result.</p>
<p>This game is by far my favourite roguelike and the only one I&#8217;ve actually played until I could win.</p>
<p>Please keep up the good work and don&#8217;t let the negativity in the columns get to you.  I there is a very loud minority of players that moan about every single thing they don&#8217;t like, while the rest of us  are happy with the way the game is developing and normally say nothing.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: dpeg</title>
		<link>https://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/trunk-updates-8-february-2017/comment-page-1#comment-2788</link>
		<dc:creator>dpeg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Feb 2017 21:02:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/?p=3859#comment-2788</guid>
		<description>We don&#039;t listen. We are unmoved. We have ideas that are worse beyond worse. Not satisfied with worst, we&#039;re going straight for the wurst.

Battlesphere: not removed.
rMsl: moved from bad spell to cool item ego.
boring wands: removed at last, thank Trog.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We don&#8217;t listen. We are unmoved. We have ideas that are worse beyond worse. Not satisfied with worst, we&#8217;re going straight for the wurst.</p>
<p>Battlesphere: not removed.<br />
rMsl: moved from bad spell to cool item ego.<br />
boring wands: removed at last, thank Trog.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: PleasingFungus</title>
		<link>https://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/trunk-updates-8-february-2017/comment-page-1#comment-2787</link>
		<dc:creator>PleasingFungus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Feb 2017 20:24:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/?p=3859#comment-2787</guid>
		<description>Changes are the result of general dev consensus. We don&#039;t all agree about everything, but all the major changes have had the support of at least the majority of the active dev team.

Also, battlesphere wasn&#039;t removed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Changes are the result of general dev consensus. We don&#8217;t all agree about everything, but all the major changes have had the support of at least the majority of the active dev team.</p>
<p>Also, battlesphere wasn&#8217;t removed.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: DevsHaveGoneMad</title>
		<link>https://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/trunk-updates-8-february-2017/comment-page-1#comment-2786</link>
		<dc:creator>DevsHaveGoneMad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Feb 2017 20:22:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/?p=3859#comment-2786</guid>
		<description>Worse and worse and worse and worse.

Patches used to be good. Do you even listen to the comments anymore? This and the last two major updates have had sooo many dissenting opinions but as of yet no reversal on the shit changes like rMsl removal, battlesphere removal, wand removal, high elf removal, shite barachian addition, Ogre fuckery. 

If there is one dev that suggested all or the majority of these changes fucking reign them in already. It&#039;s. Fucking. Shit.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Worse and worse and worse and worse.</p>
<p>Patches used to be good. Do you even listen to the comments anymore? This and the last two major updates have had sooo many dissenting opinions but as of yet no reversal on the shit changes like rMsl removal, battlesphere removal, wand removal, high elf removal, shite barachian addition, Ogre fuckery. </p>
<p>If there is one dev that suggested all or the majority of these changes fucking reign them in already. It&#8217;s. Fucking. Shit.</p>
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		<title>By: tv1990</title>
		<link>https://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/trunk-updates-8-february-2017/comment-page-1#comment-2783</link>
		<dc:creator>tv1990</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Feb 2017 11:36:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/?p=3859#comment-2783</guid>
		<description>i like this patch, the mut change, the scarves, and the new and sweet ignition spell, the changes just make dcss .20 more exciting for me

i really appreciate your efforts, keep on the good work devs</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i like this patch, the mut change, the scarves, and the new and sweet ignition spell, the changes just make dcss .20 more exciting for me</p>
<p>i really appreciate your efforts, keep on the good work devs</p>
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		<title>By: delverdown</title>
		<link>https://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/trunk-updates-8-february-2017/comment-page-1#comment-2782</link>
		<dc:creator>delverdown</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Feb 2017 19:10:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/?p=3859#comment-2782</guid>
		<description>Well, I&#039;m willing to give the Prism/Force Lance combo a try. I was looking forward to battlesphere, but I&#039;m up for working with this. I downloaded 0.19, so if I absolutely have to have battlesphere, I can just drop back a version. Having fun with this game either way! Prism may have some entertaining possibilities.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, I&#8217;m willing to give the Prism/Force Lance combo a try. I was looking forward to battlesphere, but I&#8217;m up for working with this. I downloaded 0.19, so if I absolutely have to have battlesphere, I can just drop back a version. Having fun with this game either way! Prism may have some entertaining possibilities.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Andy</title>
		<link>https://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/trunk-updates-8-february-2017/comment-page-1#comment-2781</link>
		<dc:creator>Andy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Feb 2017 13:43:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/?p=3859#comment-2781</guid>
		<description>That brings up a good point: DCSS is randomized, so there is *never* any certainty a player will get certain spells, items, or anything during a playthrough.  DCSS encourages players to be adaptable by it&#039;s very nature, but... how the heck can we be adaptable if there are no other options to adapt WITH?

The more stuff in DCSS, the better the chance that a workable solution to a given situation will present itself.  This is why limiting players and removing gobs of useful stuff is a bad thing.  That, and it makes DCSS more linear, less interesting, boring, or even outright annoying.

If an increasing number of people are giving up on Trunk and sticking with 0.19, then that SHOULD tell the devs something...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That brings up a good point: DCSS is randomized, so there is *never* any certainty a player will get certain spells, items, or anything during a playthrough.  DCSS encourages players to be adaptable by it&#8217;s very nature, but&#8230; how the heck can we be adaptable if there are no other options to adapt WITH?</p>
<p>The more stuff in DCSS, the better the chance that a workable solution to a given situation will present itself.  This is why limiting players and removing gobs of useful stuff is a bad thing.  That, and it makes DCSS more linear, less interesting, boring, or even outright annoying.</p>
<p>If an increasing number of people are giving up on Trunk and sticking with 0.19, then that SHOULD tell the devs something&#8230;</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: delverdown</title>
		<link>https://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/trunk-updates-8-february-2017/comment-page-1#comment-2775</link>
		<dc:creator>delverdown</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Feb 2017 21:16:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/?p=3859#comment-2775</guid>
		<description>Well... I literally started playing DCSS this week, and I&#039;m enjoying it so far. But, I&#039;m playing a deep elf Conj, and all the tips &amp; tricks I&#039;ve read so far tell me &quot;get Battlesphere as soon as you can!&quot; and basically the idea that it&#039;s the key component to the build. Now, I uhhh.... There goes my whole strategy. I guess I&#039;ll stick with v.19.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well&#8230; I literally started playing DCSS this week, and I&#8217;m enjoying it so far. But, I&#8217;m playing a deep elf Conj, and all the tips &amp; tricks I&#8217;ve read so far tell me &#8220;get Battlesphere as soon as you can!&#8221; and basically the idea that it&#8217;s the key component to the build. Now, I uhhh&#8230;. There goes my whole strategy. I guess I&#8217;ll stick with v.19.</p>
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		<title>By: ViolentBeetle</title>
		<link>https://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/trunk-updates-8-february-2017/comment-page-1#comment-2774</link>
		<dc:creator>ViolentBeetle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Feb 2017 19:21:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/?p=3859#comment-2774</guid>
		<description>Maybe the design should try working towards some kind of sustained spells if spells being renewed out of combat is undesirable? Like have player learn spells that do not expire but are reducing max mana when active?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe the design should try working towards some kind of sustained spells if spells being renewed out of combat is undesirable? Like have player learn spells that do not expire but are reducing max mana when active?</p>
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		<title>By: Andy</title>
		<link>https://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/trunk-updates-8-february-2017/comment-page-1#comment-2768</link>
		<dc:creator>Andy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Feb 2017 13:23:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/?p=3859#comment-2768</guid>
		<description>Okay, good, I misread the part that Deflect missiles is still in, so that&#039;s good.  If the player ever has a chance to learn it in time, that is.  Maybe shields should give a bonus to armor against missiles, to give people who never find a scarf or a book with Deflect Missiles in it?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Okay, good, I misread the part that Deflect missiles is still in, so that&#8217;s good.  If the player ever has a chance to learn it in time, that is.  Maybe shields should give a bonus to armor against missiles, to give people who never find a scarf or a book with Deflect Missiles in it?</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Andy</title>
		<link>https://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/trunk-updates-8-february-2017/comment-page-1#comment-2767</link>
		<dc:creator>Andy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Feb 2017 12:19:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/?p=3859#comment-2767</guid>
		<description>Aww... I liked using Delayed Fireball as a Vampire bat.  It was nice to have a trick up my wings when I inevitably woke up a nasty creature WHO HAD NO BUSINESS SLEEPING RIGHT AROUND THAT ONE CORNER...

Ignition sounds nice, though.  Meh on everything else.  I usually cheat, just so I can wander around, take in the scenery, and blow the living crap out of stuff.  But reducing defense against missiles to one relatively rare item sounds unwise... Balentius is right, Yaktaurs/Centaurs can easily shred a maxed-out player if they are busy with melee mobs.

Not digging the removals.  Nope, not a bit.  So we finally got an addition that sounds REALLY cool, Ignition, and had a bunch of stuff removed.  One neat thing does not make up for losing 5 or 6 established features, and I don&#039;t really care whether DCSS people are allergic to Tolkien-esque wording or not.

Don&#039;t &quot;simplify&quot; this game anymore!  None of us want a &quot;simple&quot; game, because that is boring in an RPG: we want a *streamlined* game that has DEPTH!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Aww&#8230; I liked using Delayed Fireball as a Vampire bat.  It was nice to have a trick up my wings when I inevitably woke up a nasty creature WHO HAD NO BUSINESS SLEEPING RIGHT AROUND THAT ONE CORNER&#8230;</p>
<p>Ignition sounds nice, though.  Meh on everything else.  I usually cheat, just so I can wander around, take in the scenery, and blow the living crap out of stuff.  But reducing defense against missiles to one relatively rare item sounds unwise&#8230; Balentius is right, Yaktaurs/Centaurs can easily shred a maxed-out player if they are busy with melee mobs.</p>
<p>Not digging the removals.  Nope, not a bit.  So we finally got an addition that sounds REALLY cool, Ignition, and had a bunch of stuff removed.  One neat thing does not make up for losing 5 or 6 established features, and I don&#8217;t really care whether DCSS people are allergic to Tolkien-esque wording or not.</p>
<p>Don&#8217;t &#8220;simplify&#8221; this game anymore!  None of us want a &#8220;simple&#8221; game, because that is boring in an RPG: we want a *streamlined* game that has DEPTH!</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: pratamawirya</title>
		<link>https://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/trunk-updates-8-february-2017/comment-page-1#comment-2763</link>
		<dc:creator>pratamawirya</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Feb 2017 13:03:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/?p=3859#comment-2763</guid>
		<description>...Wait. How about octopodes and felids? The two species with least defense (HP and AC)? They can&#039;t never get rMsl anymore except from the incredibly rare amulet of air?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8230;Wait. How about octopodes and felids? The two species with least defense (HP and AC)? They can&#8217;t never get rMsl anymore except from the incredibly rare amulet of air?</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: pratamawirya</title>
		<link>https://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/trunk-updates-8-february-2017/comment-page-1#comment-2762</link>
		<dc:creator>pratamawirya</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Feb 2017 12:41:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/?p=3859#comment-2762</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s not too bad. We can still get rMsl from a scarf, though it means losing up to 3 AC. But since scarves are a bit rare, we might get to the endgame without rMsl at all to protect us from yaktaurs etc.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s not too bad. We can still get rMsl from a scarf, though it means losing up to 3 AC. But since scarves are a bit rare, we might get to the endgame without rMsl at all to protect us from yaktaurs etc.</p>
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		<title>By: Balentius</title>
		<link>https://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/trunk-updates-8-february-2017/comment-page-1#comment-2759</link>
		<dc:creator>Balentius</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Feb 2017 15:38:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/?p=3859#comment-2759</guid>
		<description>So, to summarize:
No high elves
No repel missiles
No wands of heal wounds, teleportation, slowing or hasting

So, basically, you&#039;ve eliminated all the best ways of playing a wizard.  High elves gave the best mana, repel missiles saves regularly from centaurs, the various wands have helped out in many situations.  

I realize that there are some players that walk into the dungeon, play for ~5 minutes and win.  For the others (like me), we NEED some of this stuff to survive past level 4 or so...

Really not liking the trend I&#039;m seeing here.  I may have to stick with v19 too.  Which is annoying since I like new features.

Please reconsider at least some of these changes.

Thanks!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So, to summarize:<br />
No high elves<br />
No repel missiles<br />
No wands of heal wounds, teleportation, slowing or hasting</p>
<p>So, basically, you&#8217;ve eliminated all the best ways of playing a wizard.  High elves gave the best mana, repel missiles saves regularly from centaurs, the various wands have helped out in many situations.  </p>
<p>I realize that there are some players that walk into the dungeon, play for ~5 minutes and win.  For the others (like me), we NEED some of this stuff to survive past level 4 or so&#8230;</p>
<p>Really not liking the trend I&#8217;m seeing here.  I may have to stick with v19 too.  Which is annoying since I like new features.</p>
<p>Please reconsider at least some of these changes.</p>
<p>Thanks!</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: ViolentBeetle</title>
		<link>https://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/trunk-updates-8-february-2017/comment-page-1#comment-2758</link>
		<dc:creator>ViolentBeetle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Feb 2017 11:32:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/?p=3859#comment-2758</guid>
		<description>&gt; removes 2-6 mutations, then adds 1-3 random and 1 beneficial one.

This sounds like I&#039;m going to lose more mutations than I gain, so I&#039;m not entirely sure it&#039;s such a great balance.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&gt; removes 2-6 mutations, then adds 1-3 random and 1 beneficial one.</p>
<p>This sounds like I&#8217;m going to lose more mutations than I gain, so I&#8217;m not entirely sure it&#8217;s such a great balance.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: PleasingFungus</title>
		<link>https://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/trunk-updates-8-february-2017/comment-page-1#comment-2755</link>
		<dc:creator>PleasingFungus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Feb 2017 23:37:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/?p=3859#comment-2755</guid>
		<description>@kitchen_ace: Correct.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@kitchen_ace: Correct.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: kitchen_ace</title>
		<link>https://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/trunk-updates-8-february-2017/comment-page-1#comment-2754</link>
		<dc:creator>kitchen_ace</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Feb 2017 23:10:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/?p=3859#comment-2754</guid>
		<description>RIP in Pizzas. Literal loss of flavour :(

I assume DMsl still exists as a spell?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>RIP in Pizzas. Literal loss of flavour :(</p>
<p>I assume DMsl still exists as a spell?</p>
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		<title>By: Taxman66</title>
		<link>https://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/trunk-updates-8-february-2017/comment-page-1#comment-2750</link>
		<dc:creator>Taxman66</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Feb 2017 14:19:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/?p=3859#comment-2750</guid>
		<description>Yeah, I think I&#039;m now done playing newer versions of DCSS.  v19 is about my limit.  I hate just about every design change made.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, I think I&#8217;m now done playing newer versions of DCSS.  v19 is about my limit.  I hate just about every design change made.</p>
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		<title>By: Gottschkopf</title>
		<link>https://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/trunk-updates-8-february-2017/comment-page-1#comment-2749</link>
		<dc:creator>Gottschkopf</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Feb 2017 13:19:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/?p=3859#comment-2749</guid>
		<description>&quot;Similarly, Force Lance replaces Battlesphere in the Book of Conjurations. This is an experiment to encourage use of e.g. Fulminant Prism, with which Force Lance has considerable synergy.&quot; 
So, instead of being able to pour tremendous damage into targets one at a time for a reasonable manacost over some time, Conj are now able to burn all their mana to maybe get a combo which doesn&#039;t work when enclosed, against heavy, fast or dodgy enemies? Nice...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Similarly, Force Lance replaces Battlesphere in the Book of Conjurations. This is an experiment to encourage use of e.g. Fulminant Prism, with which Force Lance has considerable synergy.&#8221;<br />
So, instead of being able to pour tremendous damage into targets one at a time for a reasonable manacost over some time, Conj are now able to burn all their mana to maybe get a combo which doesn&#8217;t work when enclosed, against heavy, fast or dodgy enemies? Nice&#8230;</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: DoubleByte</title>
		<link>https://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/trunk-updates-8-february-2017/comment-page-1#comment-2746</link>
		<dc:creator>DoubleByte</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Feb 2017 14:58:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/?p=3859#comment-2746</guid>
		<description>Those !mut changes are coooooool. Annoying, but cool.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Those !mut changes are coooooool. Annoying, but cool.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: lyraley</title>
		<link>https://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/trunk-updates-8-february-2017/comment-page-1#comment-2744</link>
		<dc:creator>lyraley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Feb 2017 12:39:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/?p=3859#comment-2744</guid>
		<description>@Quazifuji
Interesting change. I like the new mutation potion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Quazifuji<br />
Interesting change. I like the new mutation potion.</p>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Quazifuji</title>
		<link>https://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/trunk-updates-8-february-2017/comment-page-1#comment-2743</link>
		<dc:creator>Quazifuji</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Feb 2017 05:02:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/?p=3859#comment-2743</guid>
		<description>The potion of mutation changes (https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/b9e5f3fc1c77b7484e45122498c1692b8fab371f) seem to have come a bit too late to make it into this post, but they&#039;re probably worth mentioning too, since they&#039;re pretty big.

TL;DR: Potions of mutation, cure mutation, and beneficial mutation have been merged into one fairly common potion type that removes 2-6 mutations, then adds 1-3 random and 1 beneficial one.  The idea is to make mutations a thing people actually have (if you don&#039;t worship Zin) instead of something people generally avoid ever having.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The potion of mutation changes (<a href="https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/b9e5f3fc1c77b7484e45122498c1692b8fab371f" rel="nofollow">https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/b9e5f3fc1c77b7484e45122498c1692b8fab371f</a>) seem to have come a bit too late to make it into this post, but they&#8217;re probably worth mentioning too, since they&#8217;re pretty big.</p>
<p>TL;DR: Potions of mutation, cure mutation, and beneficial mutation have been merged into one fairly common potion type that removes 2-6 mutations, then adds 1-3 random and 1 beneficial one.  The idea is to make mutations a thing people actually have (if you don&#8217;t worship Zin) instead of something people generally avoid ever having.</p>
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