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	<title>Comments on: Playtesting: Introducing the new tutorial, and other changes</title>
	<atom:link href="http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/playtesting-introducing-the-new-tutorial-and-other-changes/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>https://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/playtesting-introducing-the-new-tutorial-and-other-changes</link>
	<description>Development live!</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 16 Mar 2026 09:52:57 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: adom</title>
		<link>https://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/playtesting-introducing-the-new-tutorial-and-other-changes/comment-page-1#comment-548</link>
		<dc:creator>adom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 May 2011 19:50:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/?p=1689#comment-548</guid>
		<description>When trying to exit the dungeon in actual game or tutorial it asks to choose &quot;y&quot; for yes and &quot;n&quot; for no.  When I press the &quot;y&quot; key it says that I have to choose &quot;y&quot; or &quot;n&quot; and continues like that until I press &quot;n&quot; which does me no good.  Any suggestions?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When trying to exit the dungeon in actual game or tutorial it asks to choose &#8220;y&#8221; for yes and &#8220;n&#8221; for no.  When I press the &#8220;y&#8221; key it says that I have to choose &#8220;y&#8221; or &#8220;n&#8221; and continues like that until I press &#8220;n&#8221; which does me no good.  Any suggestions?</p>
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		<title>By: dpeg</title>
		<link>https://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/playtesting-introducing-the-new-tutorial-and-other-changes/comment-page-1#comment-520</link>
		<dc:creator>dpeg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Apr 2011 12:53:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/?p=1689#comment-520</guid>
		<description>There are some ideas to change how buff spells work. Don&#039;t hold your breath, this may never materialise... but we are aware of the problem.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There are some ideas to change how buff spells work. Don&#8217;t hold your breath, this may never materialise&#8230; but we are aware of the problem.</p>
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		<title>By: Goustophe</title>
		<link>https://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/playtesting-introducing-the-new-tutorial-and-other-changes/comment-page-1#comment-516</link>
		<dc:creator>Goustophe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Apr 2011 19:29:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/?p=1689#comment-516</guid>
		<description>If removing extension was deemed necessary on the grounds of balance I can understand that but are there any plans to replace its convenience? Right now optimal play dictates that I keep a series of buffs (Deflect missiles, Armor, Necromutation, etc) which requires recasting something every 20 or so turns. This is both inconvenient and repetitive which are areas this game has tried to avoid. Are there any plans in the future to overhaul the buff system, either to make them more situational (therefore unnecessary to constantly recast) or otherwise easier on the player to maintain?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If removing extension was deemed necessary on the grounds of balance I can understand that but are there any plans to replace its convenience? Right now optimal play dictates that I keep a series of buffs (Deflect missiles, Armor, Necromutation, etc) which requires recasting something every 20 or so turns. This is both inconvenient and repetitive which are areas this game has tried to avoid. Are there any plans in the future to overhaul the buff system, either to make them more situational (therefore unnecessary to constantly recast) or otherwise easier on the player to maintain?</p>
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		<title>By: jpeg</title>
		<link>https://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/playtesting-introducing-the-new-tutorial-and-other-changes/comment-page-1#comment-513</link>
		<dc:creator>jpeg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 Mar 2011 17:28:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/?p=1689#comment-513</guid>
		<description>Just for clarification, the two gods weren&#039;t actually _removed_. They are simply no longer available as starting gods, but you can still pick them up in the Temple or at one of the random altars.

As for why these backgrounds were removed, it&#039;s because we are trying to make the Temple and altars more meaningful, so we&#039;re reducing the number of gods available from the start. Hopefully, this will result in players wishing to take on e.g. Makhleb having to occasionally make a tough decision if the desired altar is dangerous to reach or blocked off, or if they come across another interesting altar earlier.

The debates about which gods to strike from the starting pantheon were lively, but we eventually decided on these two because neither of them shines (no pun intended) early on. They don&#039;t shape the early gameplay like Zin, Trog or Lugonu do, and they don&#039;t provide wacky fun in the way of Xom.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just for clarification, the two gods weren&#8217;t actually _removed_. They are simply no longer available as starting gods, but you can still pick them up in the Temple or at one of the random altars.</p>
<p>As for why these backgrounds were removed, it&#8217;s because we are trying to make the Temple and altars more meaningful, so we&#8217;re reducing the number of gods available from the start. Hopefully, this will result in players wishing to take on e.g. Makhleb having to occasionally make a tough decision if the desired altar is dangerous to reach or blocked off, or if they come across another interesting altar earlier.</p>
<p>The debates about which gods to strike from the starting pantheon were lively, but we eventually decided on these two because neither of them shines (no pun intended) early on. They don&#8217;t shape the early gameplay like Zin, Trog or Lugonu do, and they don&#8217;t provide wacky fun in the way of Xom.</p>
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		<title>By: evktalo</title>
		<link>https://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/playtesting-introducing-the-new-tutorial-and-other-changes/comment-page-1#comment-512</link>
		<dc:creator>evktalo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 Mar 2011 17:22:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/?p=1689#comment-512</guid>
		<description>Makhleb and TSO weren&#039;t removed, you probably misread &quot;removed as starting gods&quot; or so. They&#039;re still around in the Temple or at overflow altars.

Makhleb and TSO were removed as starting options on the grounds that Makhleb works just as well when picked up from the temple, whereas TSO is more of an endgame god - and really doesn&#039;t do much in the early game.

--Eino</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Makhleb and TSO weren&#8217;t removed, you probably misread &#8220;removed as starting gods&#8221; or so. They&#8217;re still around in the Temple or at overflow altars.</p>
<p>Makhleb and TSO were removed as starting options on the grounds that Makhleb works just as well when picked up from the temple, whereas TSO is more of an endgame god &#8211; and really doesn&#8217;t do much in the early game.</p>
<p>&#8211;Eino</p>
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		<title>By: Jaco</title>
		<link>https://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/playtesting-introducing-the-new-tutorial-and-other-changes/comment-page-1#comment-511</link>
		<dc:creator>Jaco</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 Mar 2011 14:26:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/?p=1689#comment-511</guid>
		<description>He did that because Makhleb and TSO was removed, and because reavers weren&#039;t different enough from conjurers.

Why these gods were removed, is still a mystery.  Maybe to make room for more interesting gods...?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>He did that because Makhleb and TSO was removed, and because reavers weren&#8217;t different enough from conjurers.</p>
<p>Why these gods were removed, is still a mystery.  Maybe to make room for more interesting gods&#8230;?</p>
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		<title>By: Tagg</title>
		<link>https://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/playtesting-introducing-the-new-tutorial-and-other-changes/comment-page-1#comment-508</link>
		<dc:creator>Tagg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Mar 2011 21:26:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/?p=1689#comment-508</guid>
		<description>Why did you remove chaos knights of Makhleb, Paladins, and Reavers?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why did you remove chaos knights of Makhleb, Paladins, and Reavers?</p>
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		<title>By: johngalt</title>
		<link>https://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/playtesting-introducing-the-new-tutorial-and-other-changes/comment-page-1#comment-507</link>
		<dc:creator>johngalt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Mar 2011 07:26:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/?p=1689#comment-507</guid>
		<description>Extension is/was my favorite spell even after it got nerfed the first time (it allowed for buffs to be kept up even if the spell that created the buff was no longer memorized). Even now I can easily see the case for removal; it costs 5 mana for potentially 25+ mana worth of spells being recast. 

But was there really no way to salvage it? I would rather have it as level 9 spell than Tukima’s Ball. Or even increase its level to 6-7 and make it only extend a given buff one time, or give it some kind of timeout akin to exhaustion to prevent permanent buffs. My point is not that i love me a broken spell, it is that i think extension fills a void. It can be fun, useful, and at its heart it is what allows fighter mages to keep up their magical armor long enough to bust some heads. So make it cost more or nerf its length to the point where perma buffs are impractical (length shorter than time to regen mana cost). Remember if ever there was a charm/enchantment to nerf or drop it is haste not extension. Haste, a spell so good virtually every caster with reasonable aptitudes (and some without) gets their charms to 10-15 just to be able to reliably cast it in dire situations. 

So long scroll of paper, you were useless, you never helped me and only very rarely killed me whilst i was trying to find an un-IDed blink/tele/fear/fog in a bad situation.

Extension is dead. Long live Extension.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Extension is/was my favorite spell even after it got nerfed the first time (it allowed for buffs to be kept up even if the spell that created the buff was no longer memorized). Even now I can easily see the case for removal; it costs 5 mana for potentially 25+ mana worth of spells being recast. </p>
<p>But was there really no way to salvage it? I would rather have it as level 9 spell than Tukima’s Ball. Or even increase its level to 6-7 and make it only extend a given buff one time, or give it some kind of timeout akin to exhaustion to prevent permanent buffs. My point is not that i love me a broken spell, it is that i think extension fills a void. It can be fun, useful, and at its heart it is what allows fighter mages to keep up their magical armor long enough to bust some heads. So make it cost more or nerf its length to the point where perma buffs are impractical (length shorter than time to regen mana cost). Remember if ever there was a charm/enchantment to nerf or drop it is haste not extension. Haste, a spell so good virtually every caster with reasonable aptitudes (and some without) gets their charms to 10-15 just to be able to reliably cast it in dire situations. </p>
<p>So long scroll of paper, you were useless, you never helped me and only very rarely killed me whilst i was trying to find an un-IDed blink/tele/fear/fog in a bad situation.</p>
<p>Extension is dead. Long live Extension.</p>
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		<title>By: Nick</title>
		<link>https://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/playtesting-introducing-the-new-tutorial-and-other-changes/comment-page-1#comment-504</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Mar 2011 23:12:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/?p=1689#comment-504</guid>
		<description>Extension, you will be missed.  R.I.P.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Extension, you will be missed.  R.I.P.</p>
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		<title>By: jpeg</title>
		<link>https://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/playtesting-introducing-the-new-tutorial-and-other-changes/comment-page-1#comment-503</link>
		<dc:creator>jpeg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Mar 2011 10:19:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/?p=1689#comment-503</guid>
		<description>If you can&#039;t get them to load (or turn up in the saves menu), it&#039;s probably a save compatibility issue, and you&#039;ll have to finish them with an earlier version. (The last version change was on January 8, or thereabout.)

As far as I&#039;m aware, the tile_force_regenerate_levels option is no longer supported - it was just an intermediary solution until some crash bugs were fixed. If you are experiencing anything as grievous as that, please submit a bug report. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you can&#8217;t get them to load (or turn up in the saves menu), it&#8217;s probably a save compatibility issue, and you&#8217;ll have to finish them with an earlier version. (The last version change was on January 8, or thereabout.)</p>
<p>As far as I&#8217;m aware, the tile_force_regenerate_levels option is no longer supported &#8211; it was just an intermediary solution until some crash bugs were fixed. If you are experiencing anything as grievous as that, please submit a bug report. :)</p>
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		<title>By: David Gardner</title>
		<link>https://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/playtesting-introducing-the-new-tutorial-and-other-changes/comment-page-1#comment-502</link>
		<dc:creator>David Gardner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Mar 2011 21:09:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/?p=1689#comment-502</guid>
		<description>JPeg (thanks for all your work on Crawl, by the way -- it&#039;s my favorite game),

I don&#039;t know my new Mac well enough to have realized that this was somehow my own setting, but I went in (emboldened by your note) and deleted that line from the options file, and sure enough it all works. :)

Now if I could just get my two 14th-level characters that don&#039;t seem to work with this new beta version (I followed the instructions about setting up tile_force_regenerate_levels = true -- but that hasn&#039;t worked), I would be totally happy. As it is, though, I&#039;m still very very happy. Thanks. :) --David</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>JPeg (thanks for all your work on Crawl, by the way &#8212; it&#8217;s my favorite game),</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know my new Mac well enough to have realized that this was somehow my own setting, but I went in (emboldened by your note) and deleted that line from the options file, and sure enough it all works. :)</p>
<p>Now if I could just get my two 14th-level characters that don&#8217;t seem to work with this new beta version (I followed the instructions about setting up tile_force_regenerate_levels = true &#8212; but that hasn&#8217;t worked), I would be totally happy. As it is, though, I&#8217;m still very very happy. Thanks. :) &#8211;David</p>
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		<title>By: jpeg</title>
		<link>https://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/playtesting-introducing-the-new-tutorial-and-other-changes/comment-page-1#comment-501</link>
		<dc:creator>jpeg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Mar 2011 17:21:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/?p=1689#comment-501</guid>
		<description>@David: Well, it&#039;s *your* options file. The default stash_filter doesn&#039;t include scrolls of paper (or anything, really). :)

Also, they&#039;re not completely gone yet - you can still find them in the undiscovered items list - they just don&#039;t generate anymore. That&#039;s because removing something will almost certainly break saves and we like to collect a couple of such cases before we increase the internal version counter, something we&#039;ll do prior to the release of 0.8.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@David: Well, it&#8217;s *your* options file. The default stash_filter doesn&#8217;t include scrolls of paper (or anything, really). :)</p>
<p>Also, they&#8217;re not completely gone yet &#8211; you can still find them in the undiscovered items list &#8211; they just don&#8217;t generate anymore. That&#8217;s because removing something will almost certainly break saves and we like to collect a couple of such cases before we increase the internal version counter, something we&#8217;ll do prior to the release of 0.8.</p>
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		<title>By: David Gardner</title>
		<link>https://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/playtesting-introducing-the-new-tutorial-and-other-changes/comment-page-1#comment-500</link>
		<dc:creator>David Gardner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Mar 2011 14:41:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/?p=1689#comment-500</guid>
		<description>With this most recent version, every time I try to start a new game (Mac Tiles), I get:

Warning: Crawl encountered errors during startup:
Invalid stash filter &#039;scroll of paper&#039; (~/.crawlrc:213)

I&#039;m happy that scrolls of paper are now gone, but for me... they&#039;re not gone! :)

--David

P.S. The game otherwise starts and runs fine. I just get that message every time I start a new game, or every time I load a saved game.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>With this most recent version, every time I try to start a new game (Mac Tiles), I get:</p>
<p>Warning: Crawl encountered errors during startup:<br />
Invalid stash filter &#8216;scroll of paper&#8217; (~/.crawlrc:213)</p>
<p>I&#8217;m happy that scrolls of paper are now gone, but for me&#8230; they&#8217;re not gone! :)</p>
<p>&#8211;David</p>
<p>P.S. The game otherwise starts and runs fine. I just get that message every time I start a new game, or every time I load a saved game.</p>
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		<title>By: Napkin</title>
		<link>https://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/playtesting-introducing-the-new-tutorial-and-other-changes/comment-page-1#comment-499</link>
		<dc:creator>Napkin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Mar 2011 11:20:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/?p=1689#comment-499</guid>
		<description>&quot;Megabats constitute the suborder Megachiroptera, family Pteropodidae of the order Chiroptera (bats). They are also called fruit bats, old world fruit bats, or flying foxes.&quot; --- &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megabat&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Wikipedia&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Megabats constitute the suborder Megachiroptera, family Pteropodidae of the order Chiroptera (bats). They are also called fruit bats, old world fruit bats, or flying foxes.&#8221; &#8212; <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megabat" rel="nofollow">Wikipedia</a></p>
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		<title>By: J</title>
		<link>https://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/playtesting-introducing-the-new-tutorial-and-other-changes/comment-page-1#comment-498</link>
		<dc:creator>J</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Mar 2011 18:12:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/?p=1689#comment-498</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t want to sound too negative, most of the changes look good. Megabat just seems rather silly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t want to sound too negative, most of the changes look good. Megabat just seems rather silly.</p>
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		<title>By: Ret</title>
		<link>https://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/playtesting-introducing-the-new-tutorial-and-other-changes/comment-page-1#comment-496</link>
		<dc:creator>Ret</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Mar 2011 13:27:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/?p=1689#comment-496</guid>
		<description>RIP scrolls of blank paper. You will be missed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>RIP scrolls of blank paper. You will be missed.</p>
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		<title>By: Napkin</title>
		<link>https://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/playtesting-introducing-the-new-tutorial-and-other-changes/comment-page-1#comment-495</link>
		<dc:creator>Napkin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Mar 2011 11:33:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/?p=1689#comment-495</guid>
		<description>Which tutorial exactly did you try? What version of Stone Soup were you playing?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Which tutorial exactly did you try? What version of Stone Soup were you playing?</p>
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		<title>By: Miko</title>
		<link>https://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/playtesting-introducing-the-new-tutorial-and-other-changes/comment-page-1#comment-494</link>
		<dc:creator>Miko</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Mar 2011 11:29:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/?p=1689#comment-494</guid>
		<description>New to DCSS, I tried the tutorial, and it put me off the game for weeks. I went back to  vanilla Linley&#039;s Dungeon Crawl for a while until someone pointed out the existence of Hints mode, which worked much better for me. I&#039;d recommend working on making Hints more versatile and seriously abridging the Tutorial, which as it stands is pretty lengthy and dull. Significant player agency beyond &quot;can you press B? good!&quot; is essential in an interactive tutorial!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>New to DCSS, I tried the tutorial, and it put me off the game for weeks. I went back to  vanilla Linley&#8217;s Dungeon Crawl for a while until someone pointed out the existence of Hints mode, which worked much better for me. I&#8217;d recommend working on making Hints more versatile and seriously abridging the Tutorial, which as it stands is pretty lengthy and dull. Significant player agency beyond &#8220;can you press B? good!&#8221; is essential in an interactive tutorial!</p>
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