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	<title>Comments on: Crawl 0.20: &#8220;Scarf Our Wanderful Fried Frogs&#8221;</title>
	<atom:link href="http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/crawl-0-20-scarf-our-wanderful-fried-frogs/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>https://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/crawl-0-20-scarf-our-wanderful-fried-frogs</link>
	<description>Development live!</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 16 Mar 2026 09:52:57 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: DevsHaveGoneMad</title>
		<link>https://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/crawl-0-20-scarf-our-wanderful-fried-frogs/comment-page-1#comment-2911</link>
		<dc:creator>DevsHaveGoneMad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 May 2017 22:38:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/?p=3948#comment-2911</guid>
		<description>Oh look, another comment chain where the only comments about the ogre change is negative. My, I really feel like the devs listen to their players. Worst patch since I started playing at 0.9</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh look, another comment chain where the only comments about the ogre change is negative. My, I really feel like the devs listen to their players. Worst patch since I started playing at 0.9</p>
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		<title>By: Andy</title>
		<link>https://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/crawl-0-20-scarf-our-wanderful-fried-frogs/comment-page-1#comment-2910</link>
		<dc:creator>Andy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 May 2017 12:00:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/?p=3948#comment-2910</guid>
		<description>I really like the new additions.  I have noticed some problems playing online, though, which you may already know about.

1.  There is no reason to play Mummies, unless one is a glutton for frustration.  Spamming spells is nice, but not worth abyssmal aptitudes across the board, no way to cure rot short of sacrificing permanent MP, and general restrictions and handicaps throughout.

2.  Necromancy now sucks.  Players need corpses to get minions, but zombies and skeletons are completely inferior to EVERYTHING.  Even a quokka from &quot;Summon Small Mammals&quot; can kill a goblin skeleton, and I can summon as long as I want, anywhere I want.  Necromancy can&#039;t be used without corpses, the allies are useless (I have to go through HOW MANY zombies to kill a single dragon?), and the only way to succeed long-term is to get spells like Infestation (which works on demons, thus extended end-game, at least in trunk) and Death Channel (less useless minions).

Sure, I can use Kiku for corpses, but a zombie army of 20 are all destroyed within a few turns in Vault/Hells/Pandemonium/Abyss.  And I have to wait around for my army to catch up to me, and possibly die waiting for them.  There is no guarantee I will find the Recall spell, either, except being forced into getting Yred.  It&#039;s a pain to set up an army that turns to dust in a few turns anyway, they are so slow that they aren&#039;t around when I need them, the minions are weak useless versions of their former selves, and it doesn&#039;t work AT ALL past mid-game without Kiku and plenty of piety.  And even with Kiku, my army is destroyed in a few turns anyway.  So what&#039;s the point?

Or I could just be a summoner, and suddenly I am surrounded by pet hydras, dragons, etc.  They chew through most anything, they are present on-demand whenever and wherever I need them, there is no setup cost, no hunting for a corpse here or there, and no worries.

Other than those two things, I am pleased with this release.  You didn&#039;t remove a bunch of useful items, and the additions are EXTREMELY welcome.  Well done!  I don&#039;t know about Ogres, I usually play Vampire/Vine Stalker/Hill Orc (for Beogh).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I really like the new additions.  I have noticed some problems playing online, though, which you may already know about.</p>
<p>1.  There is no reason to play Mummies, unless one is a glutton for frustration.  Spamming spells is nice, but not worth abyssmal aptitudes across the board, no way to cure rot short of sacrificing permanent MP, and general restrictions and handicaps throughout.</p>
<p>2.  Necromancy now sucks.  Players need corpses to get minions, but zombies and skeletons are completely inferior to EVERYTHING.  Even a quokka from &#8220;Summon Small Mammals&#8221; can kill a goblin skeleton, and I can summon as long as I want, anywhere I want.  Necromancy can&#8217;t be used without corpses, the allies are useless (I have to go through HOW MANY zombies to kill a single dragon?), and the only way to succeed long-term is to get spells like Infestation (which works on demons, thus extended end-game, at least in trunk) and Death Channel (less useless minions).</p>
<p>Sure, I can use Kiku for corpses, but a zombie army of 20 are all destroyed within a few turns in Vault/Hells/Pandemonium/Abyss.  And I have to wait around for my army to catch up to me, and possibly die waiting for them.  There is no guarantee I will find the Recall spell, either, except being forced into getting Yred.  It&#8217;s a pain to set up an army that turns to dust in a few turns anyway, they are so slow that they aren&#8217;t around when I need them, the minions are weak useless versions of their former selves, and it doesn&#8217;t work AT ALL past mid-game without Kiku and plenty of piety.  And even with Kiku, my army is destroyed in a few turns anyway.  So what&#8217;s the point?</p>
<p>Or I could just be a summoner, and suddenly I am surrounded by pet hydras, dragons, etc.  They chew through most anything, they are present on-demand whenever and wherever I need them, there is no setup cost, no hunting for a corpse here or there, and no worries.</p>
<p>Other than those two things, I am pleased with this release.  You didn&#8217;t remove a bunch of useful items, and the additions are EXTREMELY welcome.  Well done!  I don&#8217;t know about Ogres, I usually play Vampire/Vine Stalker/Hill Orc (for Beogh).</p>
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		<title>By: jay</title>
		<link>https://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/crawl-0-20-scarf-our-wanderful-fried-frogs/comment-page-1#comment-2909</link>
		<dc:creator>jay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 May 2017 00:57:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/?p=3948#comment-2909</guid>
		<description>What is the level stat increase for Bar?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What is the level stat increase for Bar?</p>
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		<title>By: gail gurman</title>
		<link>https://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/crawl-0-20-scarf-our-wanderful-fried-frogs/comment-page-1#comment-2908</link>
		<dc:creator>gail gurman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 May 2017 19:07:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/?p=3948#comment-2908</guid>
		<description>Really, really disappointed in the stealth change to Ogres.

You took them from +3 maces to -1, I mean seriously not only does that not fit the lore but it severely challenges their already squishy early game.  Even if you buffed all their magic apt to 0 it wouldn&#039;t warrant a -1.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Really, really disappointed in the stealth change to Ogres.</p>
<p>You took them from +3 maces to -1, I mean seriously not only does that not fit the lore but it severely challenges their already squishy early game.  Even if you buffed all their magic apt to 0 it wouldn&#8217;t warrant a -1.</p>
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		<title>By: Fv001</title>
		<link>https://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/crawl-0-20-scarf-our-wanderful-fried-frogs/comment-page-1#comment-2907</link>
		<dc:creator>Fv001</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 May 2017 13:06:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/?p=3948#comment-2907</guid>
		<description>Someone fixed it. Thank you, whoever did</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Someone fixed it. Thank you, whoever did</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Fv001</title>
		<link>https://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/crawl-0-20-scarf-our-wanderful-fried-frogs/comment-page-1#comment-2906</link>
		<dc:creator>Fv001</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 May 2017 10:36:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/?p=3948#comment-2906</guid>
		<description>The tournament does not count games on CUE.

Right now (27.5.2017, 10:33 UTC) there are 15 0.20 games on CUE, but according to the tournament page, there is no current game there. 
Also I lost a GrFi, played only today on CUE, yet I do not show up in the All players page.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The tournament does not count games on CUE.</p>
<p>Right now (27.5.2017, 10:33 UTC) there are 15 0.20 games on CUE, but according to the tournament page, there is no current game there.<br />
Also I lost a GrFi, played only today on CUE, yet I do not show up in the All players page.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: wtrl</title>
		<link>https://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/crawl-0-20-scarf-our-wanderful-fried-frogs/comment-page-1#comment-2904</link>
		<dc:creator>wtrl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 May 2017 20:34:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/?p=3948#comment-2904</guid>
		<description>If your standard of excellence is a 40 year old game, crawl is a modern wonder. It must be hard to say what a core issue would even be in the face of something so radical and new.

In reality, crawl has been around a long time and there&#039;s a pretty well-developed body of commentary on it. It would be pretty fair to say the issues I mention are widely considered central, though some are more controversial than others.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If your standard of excellence is a 40 year old game, crawl is a modern wonder. It must be hard to say what a core issue would even be in the face of something so radical and new.</p>
<p>In reality, crawl has been around a long time and there&#8217;s a pretty well-developed body of commentary on it. It would be pretty fair to say the issues I mention are widely considered central, though some are more controversial than others.</p>
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		<title>By: warren</title>
		<link>https://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/crawl-0-20-scarf-our-wanderful-fried-frogs/comment-page-1#comment-2903</link>
		<dc:creator>warren</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 May 2017 18:37:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/?p=3948#comment-2903</guid>
		<description>@wtrl: I don&#039;t think any of the things you mentioned are core issues. Take a look at my .rc file if you want a snippet of code that eats chunks automatically when hungry. But I can&#039;t remember anyone else thinking that eating and ID scrolls were &quot;core issues&quot; so I think they&#039;re actually just pet peeves of yours.

Regarding tactics: Luring in order to not get swarmed is a tactic in most video games of all genres ever, from FPS to RTS to rogue-like. Column dancing to regen mana/HP is a desperation, last-resort tactic that doesn&#039;t even come into play if you&#039;re using better tactics.Stair dancing has been part of rogue-likes since the original Rogue so it doesn&#039;t seem to be a new or significant issue.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@wtrl: I don&#8217;t think any of the things you mentioned are core issues. Take a look at my .rc file if you want a snippet of code that eats chunks automatically when hungry. But I can&#8217;t remember anyone else thinking that eating and ID scrolls were &#8220;core issues&#8221; so I think they&#8217;re actually just pet peeves of yours.</p>
<p>Regarding tactics: Luring in order to not get swarmed is a tactic in most video games of all genres ever, from FPS to RTS to rogue-like. Column dancing to regen mana/HP is a desperation, last-resort tactic that doesn&#8217;t even come into play if you&#8217;re using better tactics.Stair dancing has been part of rogue-likes since the original Rogue so it doesn&#8217;t seem to be a new or significant issue.</p>
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		<title>By: Baconkid</title>
		<link>https://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/crawl-0-20-scarf-our-wanderful-fried-frogs/comment-page-1#comment-2901</link>
		<dc:creator>Baconkid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 May 2017 00:21:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/?p=3948#comment-2901</guid>
		<description>Please don&#039;t listen to him ^</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Please don&#8217;t listen to him ^</p>
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		<title>By: Ultraviolent4</title>
		<link>https://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/crawl-0-20-scarf-our-wanderful-fried-frogs/comment-page-1#comment-2899</link>
		<dc:creator>Ultraviolent4</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 May 2017 22:13:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/?p=3948#comment-2899</guid>
		<description>Noise scrolls pull large chunks of Zot 5 into your oklob farm :D</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Noise scrolls pull large chunks of Zot 5 into your oklob farm :D</p>
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		<title>By: wtrl</title>
		<link>https://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/crawl-0-20-scarf-our-wanderful-fried-frogs/comment-page-1#comment-2898</link>
		<dc:creator>wtrl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 May 2017 17:52:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/?p=3948#comment-2898</guid>
		<description>It was wise to leave the gnoll species and council god out of this version. The evocable consolidation is also a solid move.

I have to say, though, it feels like just another version that fails to address core issues, among them constant gameplay interruptions to eat (literally every single minute of game time in my experience), an identification system that offers nothing but clutter and gameplay interruptions, and tactics that revolve around long distance luring, column dancing, and stair abuse.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It was wise to leave the gnoll species and council god out of this version. The evocable consolidation is also a solid move.</p>
<p>I have to say, though, it feels like just another version that fails to address core issues, among them constant gameplay interruptions to eat (literally every single minute of game time in my experience), an identification system that offers nothing but clutter and gameplay interruptions, and tactics that revolve around long distance luring, column dancing, and stair abuse.</p>
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		<title>By: kefirnik</title>
		<link>https://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/crawl-0-20-scarf-our-wanderful-fried-frogs/comment-page-1#comment-2897</link>
		<dc:creator>kefirnik</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 May 2017 17:29:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/?p=3948#comment-2897</guid>
		<description>What&#039;s the point of noise scrolls now?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What&#8217;s the point of noise scrolls now?</p>
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