Draconian

alex404

Here's my stab at this.

- Consensus: Dragons are cool, and everyone wants to be a dragon, but draconians are pretty weak. My issue with a lot of the suggestions so far is that while yes, Draconians need to be differentiated from each other, you also need to feel like your style is still in accordance within a larger race. Ideally when you start fighting draconians, you feel a little kinship with them. There shouldn't be odd little differences here and there (greys with a few more stats, smatterings of minor skill bonuses) - differences should be pronounced, but symmetric. I also very strongly agree with changing the names to bring them in line with dragon names. This is a lot of the fun of playing draconians in the first place. When your storm draconian faces of against a storm dragon, ideally you should feel a little thrill as well.

I intended to submit a FR for dragon/draconian/drake consistency a while back, and while having a universal color or elemental-based naming scheme (instead of both) would be simple, having consistent glyph colors would be just as important, and that would require shuffling most every creature in D, d, and l - it hardly seemed worth the trouble to even write up. Regardless, I see little reason that every dragon needs to have a corresponding draconian, or every draconian a dragon - I only meant to link the existing sets. — OG17 2010-04-21 10:32

- Symmetry: Each draconian gets one breath weapon, one strong aptitude, one weak aptitude, and some resistance as well as possibly a little perk. There are two stages to the draconians development. At level 7, you gain your subspecies, your basic breath weapon, and a level of resistance. At level 18 you gain your second level of resistance, and your breath weapon gets buffed.

- Breath: Breath weapons in general should be seriously buffed - as borsuk pointed out, right now draconians don't feel very draconic. Delays between breaths should be in the range of 15-30 turns, but they should pack a punch, and the player should always feel that they're a fun and important part of their arsenal. In general, the breath at x7 will be single targeting and fairly straight forward, whereas at the next tier it can hit multiple targets (either as a beam or a ball).

The current draconians are already largely indistinguishable - I don't really think “symmetry” is the direction you should be going for here. That said, I don't get why their resists are spread over such a huge level range, either. — OG17 2010-04-21 10:54

- Odds and ends: Draconians are indeed fragile. Either dodging should be 100, or they should get more AC, or hell even both. I'd say increase exp mod to accomodate; exp penalty 150 I think would bring them more in line with the big tough guys that draconians should be. All skills will be identical with the immature draconian, except for those listed below. Finally, lose the tail attack. It's pretty worthless anyway.

What does everyone have against tails? They're something of an exp sink, sure, but they're also a free attack, and even a weak attack is better than no attack. — OG17 2010-04-21 10:32

- Species selection: Probably the trickiest thing right now with draconians is balancing the fact that the randomness is an important part of the race, and that right now (especially with immature dracs in trunk) scumming is inevitable. It takes me about twenty minutes to get to level 7, and whereas it is fun to be flexible, often your color just cripples your character (a fire elementalist draws a white drac). I propose the following: When you hit level 7 you are presented with two colours: One random, and one based on your skills. Each draconian will be tied to one good skill apt, and so whichever apt your character has as the highest (enchant or fire or ice, etc…) will be offered to you. If the character is really keen on a certain colour, they have to work at it, and in a way which is stylistically pleasing. (You want purple? You have to work your enchant to be the highest of a large range of skills, which demands a certain play style and a degree of work on your part).

- Drawbacks: I'm spelling out a pretty significant buff to draconians, and so I imagine some drawbacks might be called for. But in all fairness, draconians really are that weak right now. From what I can tell, this new collection of abilities doesn't take them beyond new demonspawn, and demonspawn can still wear armour.

If draconians are weak, it's due to their lack of equipment slots. Their evolved apts are hardly “crippling” - a red, black, or white draconian is currently no worse at their opposite school than a mummy is at everything. None of the other draconians even lose apts at all, it's just a straight bonus for them. The only absurdly bad draconian apt is armor. — OG17 2010-04-21 10:32

Draconian subspecies

Here's an initial list of draconians, which are in accordance with the guidelines I've laid out.

Fire draconian: Level 7: 1 level fire resist, single target breath of fire. 18: Second level of fire reisst, beam of fire. Fire 70, Ice 130.

Ice draconian: Same as fire drac except cold instead. Due to the relative weakness however of both of these, perhaps a cloud which hangs around for a few turns might balance it out.

Storm Draconian: Level 7: Resist elec, single shot elec damage. Level 18: Bouncing elec bolt, and perma flight with +4 ev. Air 70, Earth 130.

Iron Draconian: Level 7: Resist corrosion and protect items, and doubles AC bonuses (retroactively too). Level 18: Spit an unresistable single target bolt of iron. Packs a solid punch. Earth 70, Air 130.

Quicksilver Draconian: Level 7: Intrinsic mr +6 per level, single target energy. Level 18: A big hit of resist magic a la ring. Beam of magical energy which tries to slow and confuse. Ench: 70, Conj: 130.

Swamp Draconian: Level 7: Spit poison. Resist poison. Level 18: Resist rot and slow, ball of miasma. Poison 70, other elemental schools 110.

Shadow draconian: See fire, except with neg. Nec 70, Summoning 130.

Steam draconian: Level 7: Ball of steam as now. Resist steam. Gains +2 ev instead of +ac every 4 levels (+10 by level 24). Level 18: Big ball of steam which stays around for a long time (long enough to allow breath to regenerate). +footspeed like a centaur. Dodging: 70.

(I'm a bit at a loss here) Mottled draconian: Level 7: Sticky flame. Level 18: Sticky flame which like, totally lasts forever and kills you.

So that's it. If people thought this to be reasonable, I'd be happy to work on a patch.

End of my post

Currently Draconian are a great concept, but are executed somewhat poorly. Most of the different colors of Draconians are not differentiated enough to make, for example, a Mottled Draconian any more different to play then a Green Draconian. The differences are there, but they're too minor to matter in the long run. What each type of Draconian needs is a little something that makes them totally unique. Their unique qualities should favor playing one way more then another, but should not restrict what the player can do, such as how the Grey Draconian's abilities make it a good hybrid or melee fighter, but don't hinder it's spellcasting if the player chooses to play that way. Below are proposals for how to change the various colors of Draconians.

I second all these as well, my only suggestion being that they are buffed even beyond this level, as it seems like there are no plans to cover up those two equipment slots and so they might be a mite underpowered even with these boosts. Can't really think of any suggestions right now, but I'll add them if I do.

I do think there should be some kind of additional buff at level 27 though. I'm thinking

• Fire, Ice, and Shadow: respective r+++
• Swamp: some kind of mutation related thing maybe rMut, or weighting towards good mutations. If not that, I like the Merfolking idea listed a little bit below
• Iron: the bolt could have smite targeting (mini quake), increased power
• QS: Can also paralyze, enemy MR is less effective (should scale with level anyway)
• Steam: legit as it is
• Mottled: Not sure, these guys always seem like the odd one out since they're basically just more annoying (fire) dragons

Just my cent. Love the suggestions! angrykoopa

Black Draconians might actually be good as they are, considering how unique it is to have shock resistance, however that could also be changed by giving their breathe weapon more strength with a longer time out, and the ability to bounce more/have more range. Additionally, having a passive chain lightning like effect centered on them might be interesting and unique.

Green Draconians could possibly have a bit of emphasis on stealth. Decreasing Stealth or Stabbing apts might be nice along with giving a boost to Stabbing damage or increasing the racial multiplier on how much Stealth they get per level of it. In addition, they could become amphibious or at later levels get the ability to concentrate their breath weapon into a venom bolt.

Good as is, might even need a little bit of nerfing if anything.

Unless someone has something substantial for them, they should be axed. There is no need for symmetry with actual dragons, and they're just a boring inferior copy of Red Draconians.

Pale Draconians steam breath makes them great as they are now, but they could also possibly be smaller, more slender Draconians. They could have Speed 1 or a Dodging Aptitude boost in exchange for slightly less HP or racial AC than the other Draconians have.

Purple Draconians are well differentiated as they currently are. Despite that, they could potentially get a miniature version of Orb of Destruction that creates 3-6 balls of energy that don't use BEAM_NUKE or leave smoke trails like IOOD does, but otherwise act similar to IOOD.

Red Draconians should start out with a fire bolt breath as they do now. As they advance in XL the beam should have a chance to act like sticky flame, and at later levels should explode into a fireball at the end of the beam.

Another idea for Red Draconians is to have them be the closest of Draconians to their reptilian brethren. Draconians could be able to 'recruit' dragons and reptiles they fight. If they would normally kill the monster, there is a small chance that the monster will submit to the Draconian and become neutral and wander around the level. The Red Draconian could then summon forth the neutral creatures with a summoning ability. When they summon their allies, the amount summoned is proportional to the Draconian's XL, the amount of reptiles neutralized, and tension. As tension lowers in battle or they get hurt, summoned allies should turn neutral and go up/down the stairs to return to their home, (the level they were on when they were defeated) or they could wander the level, making it their new 'home' if they so choose.

White Draconians have the potential for many different fun types of breathes. They could create a transparent wall of ice, breathe a cloud of freezing vapour which flows in the direction they breathe it in, simular to Orb of Destruction but for clouds, or they could have a smite targeting freezing power for their 'breath'.

Additional, White Draconians could have a passive freezing field that freezes over walls and floor around them, that goes up in size with XL level. Projectiles should have a chance to bounce off of frozen walls, and enemies should have a chance to slip, (be susceptible to stabbing) have an EV penalty, miscast, and/or be slower if not resistant to cold when walking on frozen tiles.

Right now Yellow Draconians are boring and unoriginal. Going with the acid theme, Yellow Draconian could have some levels of sapivore and/or carnivore, possibly with fast metabolism too. At various levels of hunger, Yellow Draconians breath weapon should change, getting stronger the more hungry they are. When Satisfied they have a weak breathe with a very short range. Very Full is a bit stronger and has more range, and Full even better. Normal hunger should be as now. Hungry should be stronger and melt through rock walls in a few turns. Very Hungry should act like a bolt while being stronger and eating through rock walls faster, and Near Starving should be ridiculously strong and even eat through metal and stone walls. Starving should have no breathe weapon however.

Yellow Draconians could also have a lower Experience multiplier equivalent to Humans or lower. The in-game justification being that they have a short life span and because of that they learn faster then other Draconians.

Below is my take - b0rsuk

Not only are draconians not enough differentiated from themselves, but they don't visibly differ from other races ! They don't feel draconic at all. They feel like yet another race with limited armour and items (bad aptitudes at stuff like ranged weapons). One of basic differences should be natural tough scale. It is not - the scales don't make a noticeable difference, and draconians actually feel like one of most *fragile* races. At low level they barely get any extra AC. At high level their limited slots kick in and make them look bad AC-wise, and dodging is below average. I think this is very wrong. Draconian scales should feel tough to justify their penalties. I propose two fixes for scales issue, and think both should be implemented:

• Dodging aptitude 120 → 100 (without this, you don't even break even !)
• +3 extra AC at clevel1, on top of everything else they gain with experience levels.

Second, they're draconians, not lizardmen. This means damaging breath. Unfortunately, breath weapons in general suck. They're like a cheap wand you can use once per several turns. They encourage pillar dancing, especially combined with draconians' fragility. Except for few cases (green, mottled, steam) they just suck. They don't scale with levels, either.

• Yellow is pitiful. It doesn't punch through AC, it doesn't deal nice damage, it just makes you hungry. I think yellow's breath should splash similar to a fireball. It should destroy doors and even idols/statues. Give it power to destroy shields and armour enemies hide behind. Yellow draconians can't wear most heavy armour anyway and it can't be sold, so little loot would be lost. In other words, I say give yellow draconians ability to permanently damage opponents' equipment and some dungeon features. At the cost of potentially getting less loot and dangerous splash. And make the breath much stronger (with a cooldown). Self-damage in close range would eliminate pillar dancing.
• Red, White, Black, Purple breath doesn't do meaningful damage and misses often. It's often used in pillar dancing. These I call “horribly boring draconians”, and wish them death. If for reasons beyond me someone thinks they're fun, I suggest to make their breath LOUD and 2-3 times as strong, especially black one. Note that by stronger I also mean “easier to hit”. These changes would make the draconians have very strong breath, but have to use it sparely unless they want to attract big attention while too hungry to breath again. It works for powerful spells, it can work for draconians. LOUDness would take care of pillar dancing.
• Grey doesn't have any breath ! This would be fine if they were otherwise interesting, but they're absolutely not ! Extra AC doesn't come into play until lack of glove/boot/body slots starts to HURT. One option is to give greys steam breath, removing pale ones altogether. No, it would not make them overpowered - just a solid race that's actually pleasant to play and desirable.
• Green is overpowered on anything that's not immune. There is a reason why Poisonous Cloud is level6: It's very reliable and deals very high damage, even if not instantly. To multiple targets. For a green draconian, it usually means no threats until it encounters a spiny frog or a hydra. Enemies die so quickly they can't even reach you. Proposed solution: the gas spreads on squares adjacent to the green draconian, with no targetting. This would make the draconian unique breath-wise. Using breath would become risky against strong opponents. For multiple targets, you'd have to allow them to surround you. To help with late game, I recommend to make the poisonous cloud grow bigger with levels. Poisonous cloud around draconian would mean player would have to spend a few (2-3) turns right next to opponents to fill them with poison. This should take care of pillar dancing.
• Mottled is grossly overpowered. A single-digit level draconian can kill an acid blob or a stone giant (a potion or two will help you survive ranged attacks). Mottled draconian's breath is very strong, but it shouldn't be mistaken for something interesting. It strongly encourages pillar dancing and repetitive attrition attacks. In the late game, however, sticky flame breath is just not worth it, it costs too much food and doesn't do much.
• Pale works really well. Its breath is strong enough without being just overpowered. In late game damage isn't noticable, but vision blocking more than makes up for it. I suggest to merge pale and grey draconian.

Third, draconian resistances come far, far too late to matter. Electricity resistance is nice, but it's more like peace of mind than real advantage. You lose a couple of slots which could have easily provided you with rElec. Handing out rElec so late is a misunderstanding. That way, it only really matters for Zot. Electrical attacks are rare enough and nothing justifies ripping black draconians of it. There are many ways to deal with electrical eels, and resistance to occasional weapon of electricity or an unique is not a huge advantage ! My proposal: all draconians gain their corresponding resistances at clevel9. If someone thinks this is overpowered on a race with limited slots, tell me why.

• Yellow draconian is a bad case. You won't gain corrosion resistance in time to fight early jellies. In Zot it won't matter, because with limited slots and randarts you're likely to have surplus of scrolls of enchant armour. In Slime Pits, characters not wearing heavy armour (which draconians are; this implies stealth) are able to swap the two amulets in case of an occasional shining eye. Resist Corrosion is a weak enough resistance, it doesn't prevent much damage. I can't see what harm could come from giving yellow draconians the resistance early. Overall, I think corroding attacks are too rare to introduce a separate resist (yes, on amulets too). Mechanically they are more interesting than draining, because corrosion has more workarounds and isn't always awful.
• Cold resistance is rarely useful - no reason to take it away from early white draconians. Resistances are bad enough at making draconians diverse, don't make it worse.

Fourth, the issue of startscumming and using various tricks to determine what colour you are. I propose this solution: each draconian starts as a separate race, “immature draconian”. This means early draconians would all be identical. At clevel7, the race is permanently changed to the color. Done.

• — porkchop: I strongly agree with this, presently say if you want to be green, start as venom mage or stalker and startscum until you notice your apts are correct for the color. With the new fixed starting stats in trunk, this would get rid of startscum for dracs. Also, good comments all around, if we have an interesting species, players will not miss startscumm anyways.
• — blarg: I'd also like to be able to choose which color to start as. Sure, it's not realistic, but fantasy games are fun because you get to choose to be something you're not normally able to be. Each color could be a subrace, and they'll still be fun to play since they've each got different strengths and weaknesses, even if the difference tends just to be resistance/breath weapon. It's also a good idea to say that they don't mature/gain their unique abilities until clevel7, as usual. Why not just make it so that picking Draconian goes to another menu that gives you a choice of color, and when you start it retains the current behavior of not telling you your mature color? That way, if someone wants to pick a color at random, they only find out at clevel7 their color.
• Immature Draconian apts are now in master. Random colouring is a key part to the species, and will not be changed. — evktalo 2010-03-22 21:47
• — blarg: So basically nothing's really changed to prevent savescumming for the Draconian color you want, except for removal of a shortcut to make it easier for a few classes to do. If someone really wants to savescum a specific Draconian color, they just quickly hit clevel7 (which doesn't take too long to do for most characters, maybe 30 minutes with careful play?) and if it's not the right color, quit and restart. This is pretty much what you had to do before if you wanted to play a class that didn't start with Draconian color apts like a monk or gladiator. Not sure why random coloring is 'key' to the race, since if someone really wants to play a Purple Draconian Monk, as good or bad as the combo may be, nothing's stopping someone from levelling up Draconians to level 7 over and over until they get a Purple one. Sure, randomization in a dungeon crawler style RPG or roguelike plays a huge part in making each game interesting, but not when you're forced to savescum for the specific race you want.
• Attention — classical r.g.r.n. reasoning ahead: “If you don't like Draconians, you don't have to play them.”
  Otherwise, the whole point of Dr is to require flexibility of the player. That could need some more strenghtening, which will come. (In case we're unable to provide that, Dr has to go, but I think that's unlikely.) However, Dr was never meant to be about choosing one out of seven subspecies — this will not come. Please stop arguing for this time and again. — dpeg 2010-03-23 07:55
• If the aim of the game is to have fun, then shoving in ways to prevent startscumming isn't good. If people want to know what colour they'll be, let them. If they get more fun from doing that, good for them. A lot of players don't like knowing the pure numbers behind the game and don't like reading the wiki/using the bots. Does that mean we should get rid of all these resources? No. Let the player choose whether they want to be a specific colour or whether they want it to be random. Some people are trying to roleplay here, and having a colour that's completely out-of-whack with whatever roleplay background they chose is not good. Why do we get to say “you're half-dragon half-man” but not “you're half-greendragon half-man”. You're given backgrounds/species so you can make a choice about their past. It's not purely there for 'gameplay'. Role-play must be valued. — StudioMK
• Providing a role-playing platform is not in the agenda of Crawl development. — evktalo 2010-07-20 12:29
  • What? Read the description on the main website: role-playing roguelike game. If role-play is not part of the agenda then you need to give the game a new genre. Roguelikes are role-playing games and not conforming with this will add debate as to whether this game is a true role-playing game, or simply a video game where you fight monsters (and thus as to whether it is a rogue-like or not). One of the main benefits of ASCII graphics is that the player can use more of his imagination. The player is allowed to play more roles. He is less restricted in what he wants to do because he doesn't have to abide by what he sees (what he sees is in his mind, the symbols on the screen just represent the sitauation). Oh, but you wouldn't know because you play tiles. — StudioMK 2010-07-24 23:36
  • I believe the relevant reading is the section N in the manual, which explains the design focus of the game. Being able to role-play your character is not in there - I would summarize that challenging, balanced gameplay (both tactical and strategic) is the main focus. Not to say role-playing not valuable, in games in general or even in Crawl. It's just not something that drives design decisions, so it is unfruitful to use it as an argument. — evktalo 2010-07-26 11:43
  • I can accept that. It's good that Crawl is in a role-playable state as it is, then. — StudioMK 2010-07-26 14:03
• Presumably, when a Draconian is born, he knows the colours of his parents. If Draconians are abandoned at birth then the Draconian wouldn't know, but I don't think this is the case. — StudioMK 2010-07-24 23:26
  • They do not know what colour they will be when they mature, and whys and hows are left to the imagination. — evktalo 2010-07-26 11:43
• Just one final notice, choosing your colour is not coming. I'll also be clearing up the comments to tidy the page up soon. — evktalo 2010-07-26 11:43

Fifth - tail attacks. Even without a shield, without a 2-handed weapon, and as a grey draconian whose tail is extra spikey, tail attacks are not noticable. If you want to know how noticable melee attacks feel like, try a centaur. You'll kick so much butt you'll quickly start training Unarmed even in heavy armour with 2H weapon. As for draconian tail, it's so weak it could as well not be there. So I suggest to remove it. There's nothing inherently draconian about extra unarmed melee attacks. Kenku, centaurs, trolls, ghouls, minotaurs all have bonus to unarmed damage. Do you honestly think you can make draconians stand out this way ? My advice: focus on other areas instead…

Alternatively, tail can be made work as counter-attack. This would be completely different from all other races with unarmed bonuses. Instead of getting a bonus to active attacks, draconian would get tail passive counterattacks, once per turn. Even if you use a shield and a weapon and do something else. It would train and depend on Unarmed Combat skill. I think it would be very fun, with only one downside - may cause acid splashes from jellies. I can't think of a way to prevent that while keeping tail counterattacks passive. But I think it's a good idea even with this drawback. — b0rsuk 2010-02-27 17:46

A pretty bold attempt to provide a complete list of well differentiated Draconians which line up perfectly with the variety of dragons available in game (with the exception of Komodo Dragon, though a Komodo Draconian would be a pretty funny joke). There are some nod to consistency here:

1. All Draconians get a breath weapon and an aptitude tweak at level 7.
2. All Draconians get additional abilities at level 17 and level 27.
3. All Draconians (except Steam and Bone) get an upgrade to their breath weapon at either level 17 or 27 (though I envision the player having the option of still using the less powerful one for tactical reasons or to conserve food).

At the same time, however, there is a real emphasis on flexibility in the early play. The way you're going to want to skill a Fire Draconian varies tremendously from a Bone Draconian varies tremendously from a Quicksilver Draconian. In fact, with the addition of the Bone Draconian, the Draconian player is very likely to wait until level 7 before even choosing a god.

• Aptitudes – Fire Magic +2, Ice Magic -2
• Lvl 7 – Breathe Fire(1), rF+, rC-
• Lvl 17 – Breath Fireball
• Lvl 27 – rF+++, Dragon Form (natural ability, magic contam over time)

• Aptitudes – Ice Magic +2, Fire Magic -2
• Lvl 7 – Breathe Frost(1), rC+, rF-
• Lvl 17 – Breath Freezing Cloud
• Lvl 27 – rC+++, Metabolic Englaciation (costs MP and Food)

• Aptitudes – Poison Magic +1, Spellcasting -1
• Lvl 7 – Spit Poison, Poison Res, Swim like merfolk
• Lvl 17 – Clarity, Tail attack can cause poison(33%) or confusion(33%) in non-Poison Res creatures, Sugmerge (Passive, provides intrinsic invisibility while in water)
• Lvl 27 – Breath Poison, Breath Mephitic Cloud

• Aptitudes – Air Magic +2, Earth Magic -1
• Lvl 7 – Spit Lightning, rElec
• Lvl 17 – Repulsion Field(2)
• Lvl 27 – Repulsion Field(3), Flight, Breath Chain Lightning

• Aptitudes – Earth Magic +2, Fighting +2, Air Magic -1
• Lvl 7 – Breath Stone Arrow, Robust(1), Cover Ground Slowly
• Lvl 17 – rC+, rF+, Poison Res, Robust(2)
• Lvl 27 – rC++, rF++, Breath Crystal Spear, Robust(3)

• Aptitudes – Fire Magic +1, Stealth +1
• Lvl 7 – Breathe Fire(1), rF+, Stealth+
• Lvl 17 – Breath Sticky Flame
• Lvl 27 – rF++, Invis (no Magic Contam)

• Aptitudes – Fire Magic +1, Air Magic +1, Dodging +1
• Lvl 7 – Breathe Steam(1), Steam Resist
• Lvl 17 – Cover Ground Quickly
• Lvl 27 – rF+, Cover Ground Very Quickly

• Aptitudes – Dodging +2
• Lvl 7 – Breathe Magic Dart, Cover Ground Quickly, See Invis
• Lvl 17 – Breath Mystic Blast , Cover Ground Very Quickly
• Lvl 27 – Cover Ground Extremely Quickly

• Aptitudes – Necromancy +1, Spellcasting -2, Unarmed Combat +2
• Lvl 7 – Becomes Undead (rN+++, rC+, Poison Res, Torment Immunity, Holy Vuln), Mummy-like hungerlessness, Excommunicated if worshipping a good god, Claws (1), Breath Bone Shards
• Lvl 17 – Claws (2), Animate Dead (Requires MP)
• Lvl 27 – rC++, Claws (3), Robust (3)

• Aptitudes – Necromancy +1
• Lvl 7 – Breath Black Fog, rN+
• Lvl 17 – Breath Bolt of Draining
• Lvl 27 – rN+++, Gain MP and HP from Killing.

• Aptitudes – Spellcasting +1
• Lvl 7 – Breath Fire(1), rF+
• Lvl 17 – Breath Frost(1), rC+
• Lvl 27 – Breath Poison, rC+++, rF+++, rElec, Poison Res

— 256 2010-07-28 20:41