This space is for feedback about the new Demonspawns. Please report oddities about the implemented mutations, as well as imbalancies etc.

It is okay to mention new ideas here. But elaborate proposals for new DS mutations should rather go to Demonspawn Mutations.

General feedback

Mutation interaction

Mutation feedback

  • Examining a red ~ should give a description (this is not just for antenna).
Antennae should work in abyss since it's not a mapping effect — felirx 2010-05-15
Indeed. — dpeg 2010-06-02 18:56
Fire I

gunofdis on Hellfire (level 3): I suggest from playtesting that it's slightly underpowered; I'm expecting to change this to 25% and 10d28 or so, with less dependance on level.

Ice I
  • Level 3: Passive freeze! Whenever a monster damages you in melee, it suffers as if you used the Freeze spell on it at maximum power. ##crawl says that this destroys hydras, but the real intended target was (cold-blooded) draconians. This also grants immunity to freezing clouds, which seemed appropriate, but might be too nethackish.

> In addition to slowing cold-blooded monsters, it stuns non-cold-resistant monsters, probably since its implementation copies the freeze spell. I think that effect is not necessary here. — rob 2010-05-15 16:25

Ice II
  • Level 3: Icemail! This provides +10 AC, stacking with everything, but if you get hit by fire it melts away and has to be regenerated. This takes about as long as regenerating HP.

Kyrris: Note that casting a fire spell also melts away the mail.

Demonic Guardian
  • There is still some general dislike on DG for AOE casters and Okawaruites
Having won the game with one character who had a Demonic Guardian, I'm now strongly tempted to quit and restart whenever a character gets one. I found it a nuisance throughout the game. I can't remember if that one was worshipping Okawaru or Sif Muna, but that wasn't the problem. The problems are a) stealing experience from things I could handle on my own (they don't always obey the “stop attacking” command), b) making area affect spells unusable, and c) materialising in front of my IOOD _after_ I've cast it, and then getting angry when they get hit. The second time this happened, I tried destroying my IOOD by casting another one directly afterward - the friendly Executioner (who I needed like a hole in the head) was caught in the resulting explosion, and got angry. On the flipside, I had one character who got level 3 Demonic Guardian at character level 10, which made the midgame trivial and uninteresting. All the other “mixed blessing” mutations are arguably good balancing factors, but I'd really prefer to sacrifice a mutation slot than get this one. — smiley 2010-12-09 02:17
Demonic Guardian is absurdly overpowered for low level characters (provided it's level 2/3), and if you get demonic guardian 3 then the only skill you'll need to breeze through the first half of the game is recognizing how strong 1's are and staying out of the way long enough for them to destroy everything. Anyways to counter his anecdote with my anecdote, just a few days I ago played a DS fire-type wizard who finished most of the lair (and later died in the main dungeon when I semicontrolled-blinked right next to a melee threat) with demonic guardian 1 for the first half and 2 around level 10 or so, and I didn't find it bad at all (though I got herbivore mutation early on so I wasn't using fireball much). They made good if unreliable meatshields for covering my escape from melee threats (like three different troll berserker ghosts) and keeping enemies stuck on top of flame clouds, and I didn't miss the XP since it's not like they're killing most things I ran into. It served me better than any of my other abilities except maybe the breath attack (which was only useful until Sif started giving me books, since I was a wizard), and I'd CERTAINLY take it over a pair of horns any day. I probably would have found it less useful if I had more high level conjurations (aka wasn't a wizard), but not problematic. Still, in light of the above experience I'd suggest adding a toggle for it to the ability menu (with a delay when turning on). And since summons don't scale well, I'd suggest making a chance of upgrading your 5s to 4s and your 3s to 2s that scales with your level (and maybe of giving your 1s a 3 that spawns at the same time). I guess maybe the inverse is that if you're below level 10 you should have a chance of the 1s and 3s being downgraded (5s aren't overpowered even on DL1). — Brickman 2010-12-09 05:35
  • This (and maybe the similar freezing mutation) may be on the strong side.
    • With Spines2, it's common for a 8hydra to die in a single turn. I had +9 AC mutation by midgame (so I didn't feel the need to wear armour), I was walking into crowds and everyone was dying left and right. Spines2 allowed me to use staff of chaos as my weapon with no noticable downsides, and by the point I got final level it was overkill. — b0rsuk 2010-05-05 20:19
  • They don't work on snapping turtles, which feels like mechanics leaking out. 1465
  • Suggestion: make spines only do damage for non-weapon attacks.
    • Spines would still be very powerful, except this time against a limited subset of creatures. Most dangerous creatures don't use weapons anyway. I don't like it. I think a mutation as strong as spines can only be countered by a loss of body slot. — b0rsuk 2010-05-05 20:19

rob 2010-05-04 11:53

I think it's better to keep the spines strong and nerf in other ways. I like both ideas mentioned here: loss of slot, and restriction of applicable targets. One possibly bad effect of the first solution (spines will work worse (or not at all) with (heavier?) armours) is that it might encourage players to swap armours. Of course, this could also be seen as an advantage. — dpeg 2010-05-31 17:14
A while back a nerf was put in to prevent spines from doing damage unless the player took damage, which was an interesting paradigm but too heavy a nerf. Since then, that change has been reverted and thus spines are a bit too overpowered again. Loss of a slot has potential, but that would shift it into a body slot facet, which wouldn't be terrible (it would be our first defensive body-slot facet) but might be a bit odd. On a side note, changing it to a body slot facet would buff Monstrous a bit, since you'd be all but guaranteed Spiny at some point. — cryptic 2010-06-02 16:39
It isn't a defensive mutation if it doesn't protect you from harm. It's offensive. Otherwise it wouldn't kill enemies (if it were truly defensive

it would make enemies stop attacking you or reduce damage taken). I suggest the chance for the spines to do nothing is made greater depending on the monster's HD. In this case, no message should be displayed. It shouldn't say “X dodges your spines!”, which suggests that you're actually attacking, which you aren't. It should be as rare as the burst of sparks from electrocution and it shouldn't give any message until the monster is hit. The monster either hits you and gets hit in the process, or hits you and doesn't get hit at all. Creatures using long weapons shouldn't be affected by your spines. — studiomk 2010-07-24 23:01

It seems to me spines are weak compared to passive freezing. They deal more damage, yes, but: they can be dodged; pretty much force you to wear robes (even with -1 armour EV you get over 50% damage reduction from spines); damage is reduced by enemy AC (passive freezing damage is reduced by resistance, but then you get extra on susceptible opposition); and more importantly: you get only spines from a single facet, while from the same one facet you can get rC+, conserve potions _and_ passive freezing. Given the basic sentiment of overpoweredness, I suggest nerfing the passive freeze mutation first. — doublep 2011-07-02 12:50
I don't think that spines (or other DS mutations) are perfect. Nonetheless, two observations: The facets are not all supposed to be of equal use — I am not sure if you really can compare spines and passive freeze (the latter comes in a higher-tier mutation, right?).
Second, the fact that spines work best in light armour is a good thing, in my opinion. You get some mutations, then you have to think whether/how to make most use out of them. — dpeg 2011-07-02 16:43
Ice and spines are both tier 2 facets at the moment, actually. I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to moving both ice facets to tier 3 though, they're probably comparable in power to the existing tier 3 mutations (fire facet, rN+++, robustness, torment resistance). The only problem with that is that it means we need more ideas for good tier 2 sets! — MarvinPA 2011-07-02 17:10
Agreed, the facets look strong enough to be tier 3. This would indirectly nerf passive freeze too. As for another tier 2 mutation, how about sth. like “strong backbone”? This would provide a good carrying capacity boost (usable by everyone) and shave off EVP from armour (not for everyone). This mutation would help to wear heavy armours. So, spines are best in light armour, strong backbone would be best in heavy armour, but both have some (limited) use in unfavourable armour too. — doublep 2011-07-02 20:45
Powered by death
  • Maybe make the mutation regenerate MP, too? It could regenerate both HP and MP at a lower constant rate, or maybe split the regeneration based on what is lower. This would make the mutation attractive for pure casters. — rob 2010-05-31 16:19
    • Why should it be attractive for pure casters? DS are ostensibly supposed to promote shifting playstyles - a “pure caster” that gets a melee-focused mutation could consider hitting things once in a while. DS currently do a poor job of pushing adaptation at all, so there's little reason to make what's already there appeal to all playstyles - and it's not like casters don't like HP regen anyway. — og17 2010-06-01 06:35
  • “PbD” is ugly and not very intuitive. How about showing the “Regen” status light in a different colour when you're regenerating thanks to the mutation? — rob 2010-05-31 16:22
    • I always thought the same, but didn't come up with a better acronym. “Regen” in a new colour is a great idea. Fully supported! — dpeg 2010-05-31 17:14
      • How would this work if you're using both effects together? Having one color for the spell, one for pbd, and one for the combination hardly sounds more intuitive than the current “PbD.” Also, how would this display that a given effect's about to run out? This seems impossible. — og17 2010-06-01 06:35
        • We could show both Regen. We could use an elemental colour (so flickering). We could print “Regen+”. — dpeg 2010-06-01 10:06
This would be addressed by mutation descriptions, if we can get it in. I can easily swap in different text, and although “PbD” isn't very helpful initially, the regeneration rate boost is huge, making the unintuitive nature of the status effect nearly moot. As of a week ago or so, the status effect only comes up when you are within range of a corpse (and thus have the regeneration boost). — cryptic 2010-06-02 16:43

The current mutation description implies that higher mutation levels increase the regeneration rate rather than the search radius. — 78291 2010-06-18 16:52

I suggest the effect is changed. You should instead passively gain health from corpses, with the corpse rot effect being made greater (so players can't keep corpses in their inventories for fast healing). It would also mean Kiku's corpse delivery service can give use to the mutation in the later levels. Right now it seems as though you have to kill someone to get the effect, then you need to walk near a corpse. Are we 'powered by death' or are we 'powered by corpses'? The distinction isn't made. If it's from death then I suggest an HP gain similar to Makhleb. If it's from corpses then it needs to be always active. The regeneration status could appear when you're near enough a corpse. For the passive power, perhaps allow it to drain the health of undead (and give it to the DS). This would make interesting possibilities for necromancers as they power their bodies from their very own undead slaves (and allow the ability to create fridges, similar to what Vampires do). — studiomk 2010-07-24 22:54

As it is right now it's really unintuitive. The fact that there's no status display for the status that you can heal from corpses right now (just whether you currently ARE), or more specifically for when that effect ends, makes it worse. So this does sound like a good change. That said, you could just as easily carry the corpses of light monsters like worms and bees around to drop and use as for a combat buff; you can do that already but you have to kill something to get the bonus. If anything this change would be a plus simply for making strategies like that and Kiku summoning official (which we should because they're fun and if you're doing them then you've let the mutation change your playstyle, which is a win for the design goals). — Brickman 2010-12-09 06:02
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dcss/brainstorm/species/demonspawn_feedback.txt · Last modified: 2013-04-18 19:06 by Cryptic
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