Aptitude Reform

Current plan

Move aptitudes to a logarithmic scale with the same range as currently (40-250), mapped to (+5,…,-5).

42 50 59 71 84 100 119 141 168 200 238
+5 +4 +3 +2 +1   0  -1  -2  -3  -4  -5

This is based on 200 = x2 = -4.

Up to a factor 10, the current aptitudes look as follows. These will be moved to multiples of 10.

                 Arm Ddg Sth Stb Shd T&D   Inv Evo                 Exp
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Human             +0  +0  +0  +0  +0  +0    +0  +0                  +0
Centaur          -34 -31 -40 -31 -34 -23    +0 -13                 -19
Demigod           -6  -6  -6  -6  -6  -6    +0  +0                 -27
Demonspawn        -6  -6  -6  -6  -6  -6   +17  +0                 -19
Draconian Black  -40 -11 -11  +0  +0  +0    +0  +0                 -19
          Green  -40 -11 -11  +0  +0  +0    +0  +0                 -19
           Grey  -40 -11 -11  +0  +0  +0    +0  +0                 -19
        Mottled  -40 -11 -11  +0  +0  +0    +0  +0                 -19
           Pale  -40 -11 -11  +0  +0  +0    +0  +8                 -19
         Purple  -40 -11 -11  +0  +0  +0    +0  +8                 -19
            Red  -40 -11 -11  +0  +0  +0    +0  +0                 -19
          White  -40 -11 -11  +0  +0  +0    +0  +0                 -19
         Yellow  -40 -11 -11  +0  +0  +0    +0  +0                 -19
Deep Dwarf        +6  +6 +21  -6  +6 +13   +17 +27                 -15
Mountain Dwarf   +29  -6 -23 -15 +21 +13    +0  +8                 -15
Deep Elf         -19 +21 +21 +13 -19  +0    +0  +8                 -19
High Elf          -6  +6  +6  -6  -6  +0    +0  +0                 -23
Sludge Elf       -19 +21 +13  +0 -15  +0    +0  +0                 -11
Ghoul             -6  -6 +13  +0  -6 -11    +0 -13                 -11
Halfling         -23 +21 +29 +21  +6  +0    +0  +8                  +0
Kenku             +6  +6  +0 +13  +0  +0   -23  +0                 -15
Kobold           -19 +21 +29 +21 -15  +0    +0 +17                  +0
Merfolk          -27 +29  +6 +21  +0 -11    +0  +0                 -11
Minotaur         +13 +13 -15  +0 +13 -11   -13 -28                 -19
Mummy            -19 -19 -19 -19 -19 -19   -18 -18                 -19
Naga             -23 -23 +53  +0 -19  +0    +0  +0                 -11
Ogre             -23 -11 -23 -23 -11 -23    +0 -23                  -6
Hill Orc          +6 -19 -23 +21 +13  +0    +0  +0                  +0
Spriggan         -31 +40 +40 +40 -34 +29   -13 +27                 -15
Troll            -23 -15 -53 -23 -23 -40   -18 -32                 -23
Vampire          -19  +6 +40  +6  -6  +0   -23  -7                 -23
----------------------------------------------------------------------
                 Arm Ddg Sth Stb Shd T&D   Inv Evo                 Exp


                 Fgt SBl LBl M&F Axs Pla Stv UC    Thr Slg Bws Crb
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Human             +0  +0  +0  +0  +0  +0  +0  +0    +0  +0  +0  +0
Centaur           +0 -11  -6  -6  -6  -6  -6  +0   +29 +13 +29  +6
Demigod           -6  -6  -6  -6  -6  -6  -6  -6    -6  -6  -6  -6
Demonspawn        +0  -6  -6  -6  -6  -6  -6  -6    -6  -6  -6  -6
Draconian Black   +6  +0  +0  +0  +0  +0  +0  +0   -11 -11 -11 -11
          Green   +6  +0  +0  +0  +0  +0  +0  +0   -11 -11 -11 -11
           Grey   +6  +0  +0  +0  +0  +0  +0  +0   -11 -11 -11 -11
        Mottled   +6  +0  +0  +0  +0  +0  +0  +0   -11 -11 -11 -11
           Pale   +6  +0  +0  +0  +0  +0  +0  +0   -11 -11 -11 -11
         Purple   +6  +0  +0  +0  +0  +0  +0  +0   -11 -11 -11 -11
            Red   +6  +0  +0  +0  +0  +0  +0  +0   -11 -11 -11 -11
          White   +6  +0  +0  +0  +0  +0  +0  +0   -11 -11 -11 -11
         Yellow   +6  +0  +0  +0  +0  +0  +0  +0   -11 -11 -11 -11
Deep Dwarf        -6 -11  +0  +0  +6 -11  -6 -11   -11  +6 -34  +6
Mountain Dwarf   +21 +13  +6 +21 +21  -6 -11  +0   -11 -11 -23  +6
Deep Elf         -23  +0  -6 -31 -23 -31  +0 -15   +13 -19 +13  -6
High Elf          +0 +21 +21 -23 -15 -23  +0 -15   +13 -19 +29  +0
Sludge Elf       +13  -6  -6 -19 -15 -19  +0 +13   +21  +0  +0  +0
Ghoul            +13  -6  -6  -6  -6  -6  -6 +13   -15 -15 -15 -15
Halfling         -11 +29  +0 -23 -11 -27 -15 -19   +29 +40 +21  +6
Kenku             +0 +13 +13 +13 +13 +13 +13 +13    +6  +0 +13 +13
Kobold           +13 +29 -19  +0  -6 -23  -6  +0   +29 +21  +6 +13
Merfolk          +13 +21  +6 -23 -19 +40 -15  +6    +0 -23 -19 -19
Minotaur         +21 +21 +21 +21 +21 +21 +21 +13    +6  +6  +6  +6
Mummy             +0 -19 -19 -19 -19 -19 -19 -19   -19 -19 -19 -19
Naga              +0  +0  +0  +0  +0  +0 -11  +0   -11 -11 -11 -11
Ogre             +21 -40 -34  +6 -34  -6 -11  -6   +13 -34 -34 -34
Hill Orc         +21  +0 +13 +13 +21 +13  -6  +6    +0 -15 -11 -11
Spriggan         -23  +6 -19 -27 -23 -34 -23 -15    +6 +21 +21  +0
Troll            -19 -23 -23 -15 -23 -23 -23  +0   -15 -34 -34 -34
Vampire           -6  +6  +0 -19  -6  -6 -19  +6   -19 -19 -19 -19
----------------------------------------------------------------------
                 Fgt SBl LBl M&F Axs Pla Stv UC    Thr Slg Bws Crb


                 Spc Coj Enc Sum Nec Trl Trm       Fir Ice Air Ear Poi
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Human             +0  +0  +0  +0  +0  +0  +0        +0  +0  +0  +0  +0
Centaur          -19 -11  -6 -11 -11 -11 -11       -11 -11 -11 -11 -15
Demigod           -4  -6  -6  -6  -6  -6  -6        -6  -6  -6  -6  -6
Demonspawn        +0  +0  -6  +0  +6  -6  -6        +0  -6  -6  -6  +0
Draconian Black   +0  +0 -11  +0  +0  +0  +0        +0  +0 +21 -19  +0
          Green   +0  +0 -11  +0  +0  +0  +0        +0  +0  +0  +0 +21
           Grey   +0  +0 -11  +0  +0  +0  +0        +0  +0  +0  +0  +0
        Mottled   +0  +0 -11  +0  +0  +0  +0       +13  +0  +0  +0  +0
           Pale   +0  +0 -11  +0  +0  +0  +0        +6  +0  +6  +0  +0
         Purple  +21  +0  +6  +0  +0  +0  +0        +0  +0  +0  +0  +0
            Red   +0  +0 -11  +0  +0  +0  +0       +21 -19  +0  +0  +0
          White   +0  +0 -11  +0  +0  +0  +0       -19 +21  +0  +0  +0
         Yellow   +0  +0 -11  +0  +0  +0  +0        +0  +0  +0  +0  +0
Deep Dwarf       -12 -11 -11  -6 +13  +6 -11        -6  -6 -31 +29 -15
Mountain Dwarf   -28 -11 -23 -23 -27 -23 -11       +21 -15 -23 +21 -15
Deep Elf         +36 +13 +40 +13 +21 +13 +13        +6  +6 +13  +0 +13
High Elf         +21  +6 +21  -6 -15  +6  +6        +0  +0 +21 -15 -15
Sludge Elf       +21 -15 -15  +6  +6  +0 +29       +13 +13 +13 +13 +13
Ghoul            -12 -15 -15 -11  +0 -11 -11       -23  +6 -23  +6  +0
Halfling         -15 -15  +0 -11 -23  +0 -23        +0  +0  +6  +0 -11
Kenku             +0 +29 -27 +21 +13 -23 -23        +6 -11  +6 -11  +0
Kobold            -4  -6  -6  -6  -6  +0  -6        +0  +0  +0  +0  +0
Merfolk           +0 -19  +6  +0 -23 -19 +29       -27 +13 -23 -23 +13
Minotaur         -33 -31 -31 -31 -31 -31 -31       -31 -31 -31 -31 -31
Mummy             +0 -19 -19 -19  +0 -19 -19       -19 -19 -19 -19 -19
Naga              +0  +0  +0  +0  +0  +0  +0        +0  +0  +0  +0 +29
Ogre             +21 -27 -27 -27 -27 -27 -27       -27 -27 -27 -27 -27
Hill Orc         -25  +0 -11  +0  +0 -23 -27        +0  +0 -23  +0  -6
Spriggan         +28 -27 +40 -23 -11 +40 +29       -19 -19 -11 -11  +0
Troll            -40 -27 -40 -27 -23 -27 -27       -27 -27 -40 -11 -27
Vampire           +0 -27  +6  +0  +6 -19  +6       -19  +0  +0 -11 -11
----------------------------------------------------------------------
                 Spc Coj Enc Sum Nec Trl Trm       Fir Ice Air Ear Poi

Old discussion

From 2539914 by anym.

The current scale for aptitudes is too fine-grained. Even with the 0.6 change of rounding towards multiples of ten, it's too numerous.

One natural next step would be to round towards multiples of 20 next. However, rob had a more interesting idea: I think that the gameplay effect of aptitude 60 vs. 80 is much larger than that of 140 vs. 160. It's really the ratio that counts, so a logarithmic scale would probably be more appropriate. Perhaps a better example is: aptitude 50 is about as good as aptitude 200 is bad. Splitting 50…200 (most aptitudes fall in here, and most of the exceptions are Spc/Evo) equally into parts, we get:

8 parts: 50 59 71  84 100 119 141 168 200
6 parts: 50 63 79 100 126 159 200

These should be expressible in words: easy/very easy/extremely easy for 79/63/50.

General principle is right, but we should not reduce the overall aptitude range. Best should remain 40, and worst should be 250. — lemuel 2009-12-12 20:47

If we split 40…250, the numbers are

6 parts: 40 54 74 100 135 184 250
8 parts: 40 50 63 80  100 126 158 199 250

Personally, I like the 8-partition of 50…200 best. With levels at roughly 50, 60, 70, 85, 100, 120, 140, 170, 200 we can express what we want. — dpeg 2010-01-03 20:14

Yes, that's the one I like best too. — doy 2010-01-04 17:25

You often comment about the inability of aptitudes to distinguish between races as much as many people would like. Is there some reason you want to make them even less important? (which is obviously what compressing the range does.) — lemuel 2010-01-03 20:33

Aptitudes and skills are a great mechanic. The only problem is that is has been over-used, culminating in nonsense like 65. The point is that aptitudes go a long way but the current (very fine) granularity repeatedly lures people into trying to differentiate species with insufficient changes. (“Reduce from 160 to 150” etc.) Instead of doing this, it is much more interesting to look at the aptitudes and spot holes: no species being good at A but bad at B etc. This is what we did for new Ogre, for example. dpeg

Let me explain again the advantages of the coarser system (dpeg 2010-02-08 12:47)

  • It is easier for new players. Less numbers = good.
  • The change reflects how designers think about species (very good at Foo, decent at Bar etc.)
  • Because of this, it will be easier to spot aptitude holes.
  • By reducing meaningless aptitude differences, aptitudes become more pronounced and a better tool of species differentiation.

We probably need a granularity like the 8 parts of 50-200 (that's fourth root of 2) with 100, 119, 141 to keep Hu/DS/DG/Mu roughly the same: Hu currently have 100, DS/DG have 110, Mu have 140 as their base aptitude. Mu should go to +2 (i.e., 141) and DS/DG to +1 (i.e., 119). This would be a slight nerf to DS and DG. I think it's ok, considering DS are getting more useful mutations, and stats are gradually becoming more significant. — rob 2010-02-08 10:35

Adding another step to this scale would give 238 and 42 on the low end, which would be fine with the current 40-250. I agree with Lemuel that it's not really necessary to compress the range. We'd just have aptitudes -5 to +5. — rob 2010-02-08 10:41

Yes, -5,…+5 seems good. We may not be able to express this with symbols in the aptitudes table, but that's a very minor problem. Number -5…+5 are much better than numbers 40…250, in my opinion. (And we could at the same choose to invert the scale, so that +5 is best and -5 is worst.) If we want symbols, there'd also be ., -, , , !–, !!- or somesuch. But that's for much later. — dpeg 2010-02-08 12:47

I think -5 to +5 is still too much range, that's 11 categories. I'd propose -3 to +3, which gives you “terrible,bad,poor,average,good,excellent,superb”, or “XX, X-, –, +-, ++, +!, !!”, and corresponds *very neatly* on the range of 40-250 to (rounding to the nearest 5) 40, 55, 75, 100, 135, 180, 250. Even that is more dynamic range than you really need or then people will really notice, but for ease of migration we can accomodate seven categories. — drpraetor 2010-02-09 01:42

  • How do you address Human vs. Demigod vs. Mummy? I think a first step with minor gameplay effects is preferable. — rob 2010-02-10 15:44
    • Agree. There is no need to come up with the “perfect” (in whatever sense) solution. Simply going to a coarser system is an improvement. The eleven steps are much better than the current 40…250. If we find the system to work well, we can (and should) eke out some more reduction. — dpeg 2010-02-10 15:52
  • Personally, as a player, even if the aptitudes are shown with symbols, I would still want to know what exactly the numbers are behind them. And I see no good reason hinding them. Isn't this just encouraging spoilers? Players should be able to do the math and understand what the numbers are representing. I do think the 11 step reduction is good, but why further?
  • Aptitudes are there for two reasons, one is to indicate what races are good at what things and bad at other things, for this reason 7 levels should be enough; the other reason is an overall experience adjustment, which actually ranges within 100%~140%. If you cut the latter thing to just 2 levels, you'll have to change other things for balancing, and lose some of current flavor.
  • Of course, we can change the aptitude system to have an “overall exp” number and change other numbers into 7 levels or even less. Say, demigods have 110% overall exp adjustment, and all aptitudes of ”+-”. This would greatly decrease the number of numbers, while avoiding the problems. Anyway, personally I think this solution is way far from the origin motivation of this page.
  • Well, one could also say that changing aptitudes of Demigods/Demonspawns on par with human won't matter either. I've no idea about this.
  • Above are commented by ahyangyi 2010-02-21 14:53

The comment structure is a bit haywire, so I will reply here: whenever we (or at least I) talk about “coarser aptitudes”, I mean exactly that: only aptitudes, not the experience gain factor. Of course, this matters a lot, especially early game (compare Og with HE). And likewise of course, there is no need to use numbers for the xp factor either, but because of the few values around, there will be no problem with tiers. — dpeg 2010-02-21 23:42

Sorry for my messy English that got you misunderstood. What I meant by “overall exp adjustment” is the overall 110 apt instead of 100 for Demogods/Demonspawns, not the xp factor. When we're discussing about the highlights of a specie's apts, 5 or 7 levels among 40..200 are enough; but this is not the case if we want to compare the overall apts among species. — ahyangyi 2010-02-23 14:45

Example: for weapon skills, minotaur 70 vs kenku 80, human 100 vs demigod 110. Either we eliminate the difference between the pairs, or find another way before using the 7-step apt. I can accept the first choice, but willing to hear dpeg's comment about this. — ahyangyi 2010-02-23 14:45

They're not really meaningful. Things have progressed in trunk; we're down to 11 steps. Yes, that means some distinctions will be removed (which is what we wanted!) and sometimes in an arbitrary fashion. We can modfiy aptitudes at any time later on, but it will be easier: the step from +4 to +3 (say) will actually be meaningful. — dpeg 2010-02-23 20:50
As time goes I'm more and more agree on this. Now, I see all the problems caused by doing 7 steps solvable. And it's obvious good for finding interesting apt combos. — ahyangyi 2010-02-24 02:06
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dcss/brainstorm/species/concept/aptitudes.txt · Last modified: 2011-12-21 17:17 by XuaXua
 
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