Mephitic Cloud

Name dcss:brainstorm:magic: mephitic cloud
Summary Still too effective.
Further information
Added by evktalo
Added on 2010-10-12 11:43

Recent(ish) nerfing made the spell less effective against stronger monsters.

Shorter duration at low power

The confusion still lasts too long against early adversaries. I think the confusion duration should be much lower without several levels of skill(s) (preferably Poison, if the effects of skills to spells is ever split). — evktalo 2010-10-12 11:46

I looked at the code a bit, and this seems difficult to achieve. To me it looks like that clouds themselves do not have variable power; clouds are always of fixed strength. Spell power isn't passed on after the cloud is created, it's not available when the monster is in the cloud and the confusion duration/enchantment is added to the monster. Therefore, producing mephitic clouds of different intensities requires an overhaul. — evktalo 2010-10-15 12:34

Reduce the duration of the confusion from the clouds, then tie cloud duration to spell power. — tgw 2011-01-17 16:33

This is a brilliant idea and worth trying out. — evktalo 2011-01-18 07:01
Like poison, confusion could have multiple degrees. More time spent in meph cloud would result in more confusion. The first level of confusion could be cosmetic, so that monsters cannot be immediately confused. Another nerf idea would be to select the direction to shoot the cloud, but the distance it travels would be randomized. — xyblor 2011-01-17 16:42
Another way to reduce reliability with range: spray clouds around the general direction of the chosen target (with higher density near the caster, of course). — mrmistermonkey 2011-01-17 19:46
Confusion could end shortly after the creature's no longer standing in a meph cloud, making frequent reapplications necessary to keep something disabled. Might want to raise the current duration, I don't know. — og17 2011-01-18 01:39

Given the enchantments split, how about changing Mephitic Cloud from conjurations/air/poison to hexes/air/poison? It doesn't actually make much sense that the best early-game hex-like effect in the game is a conjurations spell instead of a hex. This would directly nerf Mephitic Cloud for most users because its spell power would not get a free ride along with their main kill spell, and it would indirectly improve hexes by providing motivation to invest in them. There's no point in training hexes if you can make do with conjurations alone. — koboldlord 2011-01-30 23:10

I support this, it's a great idea, in my opinion.
First, it is a nerf to MC and to Con. Second, it is a buff to Hex. All of these are desired. Since the skill set Hex/Air/Poi fits flavour-wise (in my opinion), we should go that way.
As to why the other cloud spells don't need to lose their Con part: to me, “conjuration” is tantamount with “damaging spell” (we shouldn't be guided by “to conjure something”, as that'll blur any distinction). MC only does indirect damage. — dpeg 2011-01-31 14:12
If conjurations aren't going to be conjurations, they should be renamed. This is also an overly simplistic way of looking at things, given damaging non-conjuration necro spells, earth spells, air spells, brands, etc. — og17 2011-01-31 22:52
If we go this way, I think it should be reflavoured to not create clouds anymore. Hexes seem more intangible than that. — jpeg 2011-01-31 17:19
A Hex spell by that name would be badly inconsistent with other cloud spells. We could rename it to, for example, “Foul Air” to retheme it to spoiling existing air instead of creating and injecting new gases. — kilobyte 2011-01-31 17:29
I would like ALL the cloud spells moved to Hexes/Element from Conj/Element/Air. Conjure Flame too. It seems more suitable. Hexes don't need to be intangible, and this will give non-stabbers a reason to train Hexes. — minmay 2011-01-31 18:28
I wasn't really focused on the higher-level cloud spells when I made the original proposal, but I think it is not so hard to justify them as hexes. The dungeon naturally contains stale air, and the hex works by causing the target to coincidentally run into a bad patch of that stale air. The cloud isn't conjured out of nothing, but collected and concentrated from already-existing dungeon hazards. Damaging and debilitating clouds are already normal dungeon hazards, and causing an opponent to blunder into them is very thematically appropriate for hexes. If there isn't a convenient damaging cloud… well, that's why you (for example) have the ice magic to chill the air, the air magic to gather it into a usable cloud, and the hex magic to put it in the desired place, rather than just a pure hex spell. — koboldlord 2011-02-01
Helping balance hexes doesn't mean throwing things in there at random. Hexes are for debilitating effects and stabbing; people who don't want debilitating effects or stabbing won't and shouldn't take Hexes, they should take Enchantments. You help Hexes by creating some creative and powerful high-level effects and by changing the monsters so that everything isn't immune past a certain point in the game (and/or making some high level hexes that you can't resist). The cloud spells except for mephitic ARE damage spells, just as much as sticky flame and orb of destruction, and belong in conjurations. — brickman 2011-02-01 07:50
While the balance concerns may be valid, note that you're making the Conjurations school even more dull, but some nifty (e.g. iood is nifty but don't water it down with a duplicate, single target blasty spells are overdone and dull, penetrating beams are slightly better but don't make more) replacements should fix that. Oh and what of Tornado and Ring of Flames: Air/Hex and Fire/Hex? certainly a hexes buff, at least — mrmistermonkey 2011-01-31 19:13
Tornado and Ring of Flames are quite different from the cloud spells, and arguments can be made to shove them into just about any school. For what it's worth, I think that non-Conjuration schools should have quite a few damaging spells but they should be mechanically different from actual conjurations - Ozocubu's Refrigeration is a good example. — minmay 2011-01-31 20:08
Hexes are already strong in the early game and become weak/useless later, just like meph - this isn't giving the school what it needs, but instead adds more of the same. Hexes should be improved by actually making hexes more attractive, not by moving existing spells into it to force players to invest in an otherwise undesirable school. More immediately, hex/air/poison is going to be very hard to cast; meph takes a while to become reliable as it is. — og17 2011-01-31 23:21
How can a school be undesirable if everyone is “forced” into it in order to get desirable spells? By that logic, Conjurations is undesirable and people only train it because they're forced into it by (insert powerful conjuration spell here). I agree that Mephitic Cloud is uncomfortably close to existing hexes, though. I think it would be great for Freezing Cloud and Poisonous Cloud, though. — minmay 2011-02-01 01:45
It's not about how strong/weak it is, it's about what makes sense being in the same school. Hexes is a school about debilitating effects and stabbing, and Mephitic Cloud is a debilitating effect that allows stabbing. Conjurations is about doing damage. The real question is whether it's ok to break the pattern formed by the other clouds, including poisonous cloud, which are all air/conj/element. — brickman 2011-02-01 02:09
How about only moving it to level 4? It's easy to learn to cast well at level 3, and the spell Confuse only works on a single target, and yet is also level 3. Mephitic Cloud simply should have a higher [harder] spell level than a similar single target spell. — daisuki-chan 2011-05-25 14:48
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dcss/brainstorm/magic/spells/mephitic_cloud.txt · Last modified: 2011-12-21 22:46 by XuaXua
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