Name dcss:brainstorm:god: wrath
Summary Complete overhaul of how godly wrath works.
Further information
Added by dpeg
Added on 2010-08-11 15:42
Full revision on 2012-09-16 23:55


  • no more wrath scumming (by waiting it out)
  • encourage god switching (milder wraths for early characters)
  • but harder wraths for powerful characters (especially those who've got gifts) — “harder” means relative to “milder for early characters”, not relative to “current wraths”
Why would one want to switch early on? Usually it is done in the late game, after evaluation of accessible items/spells. — hayenne 2013-01-25 16:06

Severity and Wrath

The following proposal is considerably simpler than the old and has been brought up on the mailing list without raising objections.

Wrath will consist of three pieces:

  1. Duration
  2. Severity
  3. Wrath effects

Duration decides how long wrath effects can come up. Ashenzari's system works well enough, so we copy it:

duration = until xp for two more XL is gained.

Potions of experience are already taken caren of (they don't count here). Some gods might want more or less than two XL, and there should be some randomisation as well.

Note that XP apt doesn't count. You shouldn't get a longer wrath just because you have a bad XP apt. So on average, 2 XL's worth of apt 0 XP. Not sure if Ash handles it properly. The penance reduction code has still some stuff inherited from the time Ash gave an XP boost, so we might want to clean it up before generalizing it. — galehar 2012-09-19 01:11

Severity determines how nasty the wrath effects will be. This is currently badly missing. For a start, severity should be a function of total piety:

severity = log(total raw piety gained with the god)

Here, raw piety is increased for all triggers that would have increased piety at piety 0. (We need something like this, because gifts decrease piety gain, there is no piety gain at maximal piety etc.) Severity can live on a coarse scale, e.g. 1,…,5.

Wrath effects currently occur with 1% chance every 20 turns, and obviously severity is nowhere used. What has to be done is adding the severity parameter to certain wrath effects (for example of the blood gods), but the good thing is that this can be done one by one (starting with the gods who need wrath treatment most). For later, or perhaps at the same time, we should address wrath effects and triggers: many gods could use better triggers than the 1% every 20 turns; some gods could live with purely passive effects.

The advantages of this proposal:

  • Duration from xp (for two more XL) is self-scaling: shorter wraths early on, longer wraths later.
  • Likewise, severity from piety gained under worship is self-scaling
  • Players can prepare for wrath by trying to get lots of xp very quickly — that might be considered “scumming” but it's a completely different from the wrath scumming we have now: getting lots of xp quickly involves skill and thought. We have to make sure to explain the mechanic (the manual will suffice).
  • The new system is modular: we can start by changing the duration formula and keep the current wrath effects and triggers, even if they're far from perfect. Then, we can address the gods one by one, starting with the worst offenders (where lots of conversions happen or wrath effects are too bad/mild).

Some further comments:

  • Do we want to put a minimum number of wrath effects? Might be strange to get no wrath at all.
  • How should gifts affect duration and/or severity.
    • Duration is fixed, right? Gifts should increase severity, but books from Kiku should weight much more heavily then Oka's gifts for example. Would be good to reduce the frequency and increase the quality of the latter. Would be annoying to get a strong wrath because he gifted you so many crap items. — galehar 2012-09-19 01:11
      • It doesn't have to be fixed, that is just the simplest way to start. I think it's better (also finer scale) to have gifts affect duration rather than severity. (But really, I still think some gifts are problematic.) — dpeg 2012-09-19 01:59
  • Perhaps severity should never go down: if you have severity 4 with a god and later on incur wrath again, severity will be at least 4.
  • There is an issue with Lugonu: the above proposal would make it quite cheap to change from a god to Lugonu to escape the Abyss, and then go back to the original god right away. (Lugonu worship very short would mean extremely small duration and severity.) Since there is the plan to make Lugonu antagonistic to all other gods (altar desecration), I don't worry too much about this.
  • Repeated offenses (no matter whether multiple abandoning or chain altar desecration with Lugonu) should just increase duration and severity. For example, desecration a first example is a minor incident, and severity 1 and reduced duration (say XL/2) suffice. For the fifth altar desecrated (of the same god), severity 5 and long duration (say 2.5 XL) seem in order.
    • Small duration? I thought it was fixed? We just have to make banishment part of even of Lugonu's wrath even at severity 1. If you're likely to get banish during the 2 XL's wrath, then this strategy make no sense. — galehar 2012-09-19 01:11
      • Yes, that will do for current Lugonu. I was getting ahead of myself and thinking of repeated offenses coming from destroying several altars to the god. Here we may not want standard length duration all the time. None of these points are crucial, there is nothign wrong with starting from a 2 XL duration, plus some randomisation. — dpeg 2012-09-19 01:59

Wrath Effects

It will be necessary to look at wrath effects on a god by god basis. (As explained above, one of the advantages of the proposed system is that we can actually treat gods individually.) The following points should be considered for each god:

  • Are there better triggers than the default (1% wrath effect chance every 20 turns)?
  • Can the current wrath effects sensibly be scaled according to severity?
  • Are there new, fitting wrath effects?

The list below is from the old wiki page, but many of them could be used with the new proposal as well.


The slow god could live with mostly (or even all) effects passive: you just have to endure the wrath effect until it's over. Some options:

  • Permanent: Deny hasting (S=5). At lower Severity, deny hasting attempts with a chance of S/9.
  • Permanent: If not yet running speed as if ponderous, then do so (if S>3).
  • Permanent: Deny Swiftness (S>2) including bonus speed from boots of running.
  • Permanent: Reduce stats by W, that is Wrath expressed in piety levels. Not below 0. (I.e. when wrath is over, the stats are back to normal.)
  • Occasional: Reduce nutrition by 50*3dS, never kill player outright.
  • Permanent: Support for monsters slower than the player.


  • Occasional: Save lives of non-evil monsters with chance S/15.
  • Permanent: Slow down regeneration (innate plus extrinsic) until at S=5 there is no regeneration at all (like Deep Dwarves).
  • Permanent: Pacification attempts on allies/summons of the player.

I don't think that Elyvilon should actively heal monsters. Simply preventing their deaths occasionally will be bad enough.


  • Occasional: Let summoned plants grow over a level, some of them hostile (can use plants and attacks beyond standard oklobs, as in Sprint 4).
  • Permanent: All plants have the vine effects of spriggan druids, i.e. may damage you when next to them.
  • Permanent: Turn fruits into stones (S<3) or spores; the latter will lead to ballistomycete farms.
  • Permanent: Sunlight on player.
  • Occasional: Corpses might turn into mushrooms spontaneously.


  • Permanent: Necromancy spells: reduce power and/or success.
  • Occasional: Raise hostile zombies and skeletons.
  • Occasional: Miasma clouds (as now).


  • Occasional: Send demons: do minor/major call for demons, depending on severity.
  • Permanent: Invert usual hp/mp gain after kills (won't kill outright).

Killing 20 major demons will work off full wrath.


  • Permanent: Wand uses take dS more charges. Destroy wands with negative charges.
  • Immediate: Shuffle decks upon abandonment (as now).
  • Permanent: Plain chance of S/20 for miscellaneous items to malfunction.
  • Permanent: Possibly turn new item (i.e. about to be added to the stash tracker) into mimics.


  • Occasional: Summon warrior-like monster/pseudo-unique, possibly to a mini-arena (with an immediate exit for the player to forfeit the battle).

Sif Muna

  • Occasional: Miscast effects or nothing happens when casting.
  • Permanent: MaxMP reduced relative to severity (at worst halved).
  • Immediate: Destroy books with “Sif” in their name (i.e. take them back).
  • Occasional: Stat rot for Int only.
  • Occasional: New spellbooks on the ground fight turn into spellcasting mimics; Sif may also send those (summoned).


  • Occasional: If S>3, do reverse brothers (use severity as piety): always place them at the edge of LOS.
  • Permanent: MR-50, no regeneration at positive tension (i.e. monsters in sight).
  • Immediate: Make gifted weapon in inventory dance (the player will get it back afterwards.)
  • Occasional: Send dancing weapon which would be a possible Trog gift; weapon disappears after kill.


  • Permanent: Pay with d(S+spell level) HP for Con (and Sum, for the time being) spells. If this would kill the player, don't cast the spell. (Vehumet is a violent god.)
  • Permanent: Power up monster wizards.


  • Occasional: Send hostile monsters a la gifts, more under tension.


  • Permanent: With chance depending on S, turn chunks of (all not just sentient) monsters rotten the moment the corpse is chopped up.
  • Permanent: Prolong confusion etc.
  • Occasional: Mutate player cosmetically: donkey ears (no helmet), cow's feet (no boots) etc.
  • Permanent: Hamper cure mutation attempts.
  • Exception: Zin can be mollified with money (he still accepts it!)

The Shining One

  • Immediate: Turn blessed blade into cursed weapon (as now).
  • Permanent: Warn sleeping monsters (no stabbing during retribution, despite getting rid of the halo.)
  • Occasional: Send unique-style warriors (proper knights).
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dcss/brainstorm/god/concept/wrath.txt · Last modified: 2013-01-25 16:06 by hayenne
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