Name dcss:brainstorm:effects: paralysis
Summary On paralysis.
Further information
Added by casmith789
Added on

Paralysis should be removed, and replaced with sleep. It is ridiculously overpowered at the moment and either a serious buff to MR is needed or a different mechanic is needed.

Paralysis makes you unable to act for many turns. The fact that there is such a disparity in MR between HO and Sp doesn't help. The natural MR of a hill orc is basically zero. Normal race MR just is nowhere near enough. A level 27 human's MR couldn't even survive against midgame monsters like ogre mages.

I hear the complaints but I don't think I follow. If paralysis is such a terrible threat, please back up your claims with numbers. CAO/CDO games can be searched for dying with paralysis (I think) and seeing these figures is necessary to even start talking about paralysis in a rational way.
I interpret the many complaints about paralysis in a different manner: deaths from paralysis may not be too many but perhaps they are just more frustratrating to some players? Instadeaths can feel unfair, so a paralysis death (which effectively is a prolonged instadeath) might feel even more unfair.
This type of reasoning, however, neglects the gameplay function of (instadeaths and) paralysis. As I see it, paralysis is interesting because (a) there is a countermeasure (MR), only that it's gradual instead of binary resistance; (b) the presence of a paralysing monster in sight alters the tactical situation completely, we want more such battle modifiers, not less; © you are not helpless against a paralysing monster (until you're paralysed, that is): it needs line of sight (so using blink for terrain, or ?fog can help); you can boost your MR (there is an idea that potions of resistance should also do this); I had good results with calling powerful allies right away (Makhleb, Trog) who did kill enough for me to survive the paralysis.
In other words, I would think that dealing with paralysis is just another measure of skill. I agree that the situation is not perfect and I am fine with removing chained paralysis. But I like the possibility of a band of (lowly!) ogres in Vault becoming a threat because of their mage.
dpeg 2010-09-13 12:32
The situation now is ridiculous, though. Often midgame paralysing monsters like ogre mages find you before you have any resistance. I know a game of elliptic's which he was butchering; Rupert snuck up on him and paralysed him with no chance to act and he died. Unlike rF paralysis is far too binary; it either works or it doesn't. Say there is a 10% chance of it working: this means on average you have to meet 10 monsters with a paralysis attack and one of them will instadeath you. The numbers without any MR items on a human are more like 40-50% on even low level threats like ogre mages.
I propose a ring like nethack's free action ring. This would prevent paralysis and sleep. It would be good but not OP imo; after all, nearly all enemies in the game don't give you paralysis or sleep. If the devteam are inclined not to fully prevent anything with one item, perhaps the ring could act like sustain abilities in reducing its effects (for instance shortening durations).
Stasis amulets are far too rare to be effective and lead to tedious play if you are keeping it on while moving around and switching it if you come up against a non paralysing monster. — casmith789 2010-09-15 00:18
I don't believe it's possible to find games in which the player was paralysed when they died through the bots. It's not mentioned in the log either. — marvinpa 2010-09-13 13:08
Ah, too bad. So there was only talk about it? It would be very useful to append the death strings by ”(paralysed by [foo])”. — dpeg 2010-09-13 13:28

MR items are rare (only body armour and rings are half-common) and for most characters you need about 3 items of this to become safe; unlike rF having one level doesn't actually help much. Sleep would be a better mechanic as you would wake up from combat damage or noise.

If I have heard correctly, paralysis was buffed in trunk. If the situation arises (as now) that you are able to get hit by a oneshot attack wearing every form of defence you have come across, the situation is ridiculous. — casmith789 2010-09-13 11:51

In trunk, paralysis is harder to resist (even if it is only a little bit) - the justification for this was supposedly the removal of chain paralysis (here), even though monsters acting faster than you can still re-paralyse you. However, being paralysed once is completely sufficient to kill you before you get another action, in almost every case (ogre mages, liches, Rupert, etc). Running into paralysers without having identified stasis or a large number of MR items is in no way unlikely, making it a completely uninteresting and unfun challenge to overcome. — marvinpa 2010-09-13 12:03

I think paralysis shouldn't be given to an enemy with random spell lists (or be included in all of the potential spell list of that enemy and for that enemy to be weakened appropriately to balance it). You should be able tell when an enemy can paralyze you and either put on magic resistance or run away. This would cut down on surprise paralysis leading to instant deaths. — ledtim 2010-09-14 00:06

I agree. Paralysis is an interesting threat on enemies famous for it, such as giant eyeballs and red wasps. It is arguably interesting if always on spell lists, such as Rupert or sphinxes. But it is boring on random spell lists; the only lessons to be drawn there are of the form “never have low MR when fighting any wizard-ish creature” or “memorize the random spellbooks.” Paralysis is impossible to mitigate after it has been cast on you, so it must be possible to mitigate it beforehand—and that means it coming from predictable sources. — nrook 2010-09-14 01:04
Enemies with wands of paralysis are particularly annoying, since it's impossible to tell that you could possibly be in danger until it's too late. I've seen Sigmund with a potion of speed and wand of paralysis; I tried teleporting after he quaffed speed, but then he paralysed me and I landed in front of Terence, without any ability to defend myself. Had I known about the paralysis, I probably would have behaved differently, but even then, there's not much to do other than die. Sure, early deaths aren't that much to cry about, but what if something like this had happened later on? — MrMisterMonkey 2010-09-14 00:19
Please read the philosphy section. Unfair events can happen; if too many of them trigger at once, you're dead. This is absolutely okay. It is only a problem if a single component is too strong. Whether or not paralysis is overpowered is the point of discussion (I know of no developer who thinks it is). — dpeg 2010-09-14 00:42
Maybe I should have cut down on the anecdote (which was simply to illustrate that it indeed happens) and gotten to the point: paralysis wands on monsters is unpredictable and unavoidable. Is this sort of unknowable instadeath what the Philosophy section meant by “unavoidable deaths”? — MrMisterMonkey 2010-09-14 01:11
Perhaps. My point is not that D:2 monsters with wands of paralysis are essential to balance. Far from it: a system where wand tiers are related to (dungeon) depth might be a good idea (also good for balance, as players wouldn't get very strong wands very early). But this is not what you see in these proposals. Rather, you get very general complaints about paralysis as such, which lead nowhere. — dpeg 2010-09-14 03:37

What if paralysis had a very short duration, but caused a rather longer duration of stasis when it wore off? This would make it bad without making the character feel helpless (stasis is a negative effect in most situations), and also prevent chain-paralysis in a simple and intuitive way (being stasis'ed gives paralysis immunity among other things). — ais523 2010-02-08 23:10

That sounds great. My only concern is that handling Slow would be problematic: if it doesn't affect slowing, it's strangely inconsistent with the amulet. If it affects slowing like the amulet, then people are going to get ridiculous magic contamination. If it removes slowing but doesn't give magic contamination, people might use it deliberately to get rid of slowing. I'd say make it a “partial stasis” that prevents translocations and haste, but allows slow. — minmay 2010-02-09 00:28
You need to differentiate it between the monsters with paralysis spells and paralysis attacks. The giant eyeball (silly by itself; when appearing with friends it means panic and use a wand or powerful spell, or failing that read a scroll of teleport or flee) is pointless unless its paralysis lasts for quite a while, and the red wasp's paralysis should be pretty powerful all things considered (after all, you can negate it with one level of resistance and it's a melee attack). Their long paralysis is fair, telegraphed and what makes them interesting in the first place. But make it so that paralysis spells, which always coincide with a monster who's dangerous in its own right, last for only a couple of turns (4-5?) and inflict semi-stasis afterwards to prevent chaining. Just giving an ogre (horde) or unique or sphinx several free turns to wail on you is a huge advantage by itself but not necessarily an instakill. Heck, as long as you're playing with it it could be cool if red wasps inflicted one-turn paralysis and a few turns' immunity even on people who do have PR, to make them more interesting; I just had to look up the monster in the database because I didn't even know they had paralysis, having always had PR by that point so far. — Brickman 2011-02-09 05:34
That sounds great too, particularly the red wasp proposal. — minmay 2011-02-09 15:09

Paralysis could be more interesting if wasn't full body. You would be left with use of upper or lower limbs (randomly?). Or even single limbs, but that might be too complicated. This would always leave you with some form of avoiding action. And it would differentiate paralysis from sleep and petrification. — Kalma 2012-11-02 14:11

Teleportitis in ADOM works even if you're paralyzed. So if you have the intrisic, or wear an artifact that grants it (no common sources!), teleportation can kick in and save you. As far as I remember this is NOT how it works in Crawl. Maybe you could take a page from ADOM ? It would make *Tele items a lot more useful for people who know what they're doing. And it's a nice, intuitive solution. — b0rsuk 2012-11-03 23:02b0rsuk 2012-11-03 23:02

Do you mean that it would just work with the normal chance (which it probably already does), or that it would always trigger when you get paralysed? If the former, it'd be uselessly rare for it to occur during paralysis. If it's the latter, that's a really bad idea: it's wildly unintuitivewearing *TELE all the time would be extremely annoying, and putting on *TELE right before being paralysed would be no different from reading a scroll of teleportation right before being paralysed. — minmay 2012-11-05 17:36
I mean the normal chance. I remember someone mentioning a long time ago *TELE doesn't trigger if you're paralyzed. *TELE is very valuable in ADOM because of general scarcity of escape tools. But it's nearly worthless in Crawl. And no, it's not the same as reading a scroll especially for heavy armour characters. These could require many turns to beat up even when paralyzed. — b0rsuk 2012-11-06 14:47
Logged in as: Anonymous (VIEWER)
dcss/brainstorm/effect/paralysis.txt · Last modified: 2012-11-06 14:52 by b0rsuk
Recent changes RSS feed Donate Powered by PHP Valid XHTML 1.0 Valid CSS Driven by DokuWiki