Spider's Nest

Name dcss:brainstorm:dungeon:branch: spider
Summary Lemuel's Spider's Nest branch; for the Lair sub-branch roulette.
Further information Is currently a portal vault.
Added by evktalo
Added on 2010-01-12 10:34

Layout

Should offer no chances to camp in a corridor — i.e. there should be no places in the level where the monsters can only attack the player 1-on-1. They should always be able to swarm the player. There should be very few rooms, and many wide passages.

layout_delve does this and looks nice and organic. It has tweakable parameters and can produce variations that look quite different - these should probably be explored and used, for variety.

Other ideas:

  • A chance of level being partly flooded, with some corridors being filled with deep or shallow water.
    • Spiders are able to cling to walls, so they won't mind corridors filled with water.
  • If rooms and corridors are desired, octagonal rooms and diagonal corridors would be a distinct visual design.

Normal item distribution. No shops. Special rooms possible: jelly pits, guardian serpent rooms, *hives.

Hellspider

It would be a branch-defining monster and at the same time, it'd be the branch end sentinel. Also, it is probably controversial, hence it gets a special page.

Web trap

New web specifics, based on mumra's proposal.

New trap type, web. Gets the ^ glyph in an unused colour (perhaps the Spider branch wall colour).

  • Webs are hidden, they can be found like usual traps (so T&D skill helps).
  • Only found in Spider for now (and can be used in vaults). Later on, we may use them in Lair, but this could harm the monsters more than the player — that's why it might be best to restrict to Spider and vaults.
  • If caught in a web, the trap acts like a net. This is easier than setting up something new, which would be awfully similar to nets anyway. (For later, we should discuss whether net traps should not be randomly generated anymore. They're almost always completely pointless. Nets thrown by monsters are okay, as are net traps in vaults.)
I saw a comment somewhere to the effect that net traps are a rare sources of throwing nets for Gladiators. So if they're removed then perhaps more throwing nets need to be generated. — mumra 2011-08-30 12:36
You find enough nets on the ground (plus the ones thrown by monsters). Nets from traps are the rarer source, in my opinion. — dpeg 2011-08-30 16:53
  • All spiders (and players in spider form) can walk through webs. (Yes, this is not fully realistic. We're making a game.)
  • Likewise, all types of p, I, J, W (except Wights) and incorporeal/amorphous monsters are immune.
  • Levitating/flying monsters are not immune to webs (we assume the webs are as large as the spiders, i.e. really big).
  • Native Spider monsters not immune to webs will walk around them. If it is easier to code, make them immune.

If the player or an ally get webbed, the following may happen:

  • A spider is created next to the trap. (This can have a low chance, like 25%.) This could be abused to create new monsters. One way to solve is to consider these spiders as summoned for xp purposes (though corpses and piety might be okay).
  • Wake up nearby spiders and alert them to your position. (Often, say the other 75%.)
Now that Spider is in as a branch, web traps in the current implementation are currently very abuseable. Walk around the Spider 5 Rune vault with Ashenzari, and as you hit the web traps you can see all the spiders inside freak out and path the long, long way around to get to you. In this way, you can herd almost the entire vault into favorable terrain to deal with it in manageable chunks, leaving only a few solo ghost moths to interfere with looting the Rune. And ghost moths aren't really significant as threats without other monsters as support; you can just walk past them, grab the Rune, and then teleport out. It might be better just to have the chance to create multiple durable summons on the edge of LOS, or at the very least block the alarm effect if there's a wall in the way. — KoboldLord 2012-03-17 19:58
This is a good point. It can probably be solved simply by adding doors to the problematic vaults, though, or designing them so you can't walk around the whole vault hitting webs. For the ending vault, this would mean placing it on the edge of the level (currently is placed in the middle), adding a door to the entrance, and possibly doors to the final room. — evilmike 2012-03-17 21:10

Optional: if the player detects a web, there is a very low chance (say 1%) that she detects a sleeping spider in it or next to it. (Summoned, as above.)

Webs are a trap that is continually generated in the branch (have to be careful with number of traps on a level — is there a limit?) with the following rules:

  • Webs are only generated out of the player's sight. (Spiders in sight of the player have other business.) Note that this also solves the problem of players digging their own tunnels — they'll be free of webs right now, but that may have changed on the way back. (This is a deliberate deviation from the original proposal. We should not link web generation to actual spider monsters. First, we're not making a simulator — nobody cares what happens outside of LOS. Secondly, it is much easier to code. Thirdly, with the realistic approach we don't get the new web where we want them since the player has cleared everything.)
  • Just create them randomly at empty floor and water spaces. It might interesting to bias web creation to spaces with adjacent walls (e.g. weigh by number of adjacent walls). This is realistic and has the advantage that somehow open space is better with regards to webs.
  • Branch convergence: web generation rate increases with depth.

The old proposal had the following specifics for webbed creatures (the ideas are good, but web and net should behave the same):

  • Web prevents movement for several turns.
  • Number of turns stuck depends on strength, with the escape itself taking one turn; use HD for monsters.)
  • Attempts to move or attack become attempts to escape; spellcasting is possible but with greatly increased failure rates.
  • Web does not prevent blinking/teleporting, but character may remain stuck in new location.
  • Escape chances propsal from the former version:
    • original: random(Str + 10) > random(100), independent checks each try
    • dpeg: power += 20+10*size+Str for each try; escape if power > 50+random(webstrength)
      where size = -2 (Sp), -1 (Ko, Ha), 1 (Tr, Og, Ce); webs could come with different strengths (e.g. depending Spider level, or proximity to rune). If you break through the net right away (a strong, large player can do that): You tear through a net.

The old proposal also said that fire attacks directed at the square are very likely to destroy the web. dpeg objects to this: fire does already all kind of helpful things to the environment (forest fire, melting wax). The Spider spiders are monstrous, their silk just doesn't burn!

(I removed the section on cobwebs, because the above proposal goes in a different direction.)

My comments:

  • The proposal ends up fairly similar to how I imagined it, just implemented as traps, still flavoured as cobwebs
  • Weighting by adjacent walls is also something I was thinking about. You could also weight by being adjacent to other web traps (perhaps to a smaller degree) - so they have a tendency to gradually fill even open spaces
  • As traps, webs can be disarmed via the existing mechanism - but perhaps it needs a different message (“disarm” doesn't sound like the right word for clearing a web!)
  • Crypt would be a good candidate for sprinkling a few webs around the place, especially with incorporeal entities having immunity
  • Strong characters presumably destroy the trap when they tear through it; with weak characters perhaps there would still be a small chance for the trap to be destroyed?
  • I also had an idea that when webs were over water, anything with cling ability could use them to travel over the water
  • Perhaps they should be generally easier to escape than nets since there'll be so many of them; could be incredibly time-consuming to travel through otherwise, especially if they constantly regenerate!

mumra 2011-08-29 23:40

These look good to me. Whether web clustering (weight increases for squares next to webs) is good or has to be seen in practice. (Also, just using number of neighbouring wands may be not good enough. Perhaps we want some non-web spots in there. For the T&D users. E.g. increase weight by number of adjacent walls, increase weight if 1-2 webs next to it, but decrease weight if >3 webs next to it.)
Indeed, I forgot to mention disarming. This should be possible, with all the potential drawbacks.
Yes to Crypt, but that's for later.
Perhaps we can make nets use a parameter for how hard they're to escape from. (That'd also allow to differentiate D:3 gnoll nets from Zot:1 draconian nets.)
The clinging bit is neat, but it might be too much hassle (to set up, and to explain). Of course, for monsters to use it would be good.

dpeg 2011-08-30 00:08

Monsters

Monsters include all types of a, b, s and y, plus mimics. Spiders overrepresented, moths of wrath present but very rare. In addition, following new monster types:

It was thought on ##crawl-dev that moths of wrath should be Zot-exclusive, both for theme and berserk becoming too common. — evktalo 2010-05-05 14:55

Implemented monsters

Jumping spider. LIGHTBLUE s. “A large spider with an extraordinary ability to leap to its prey from a great distance.” HD 5, AC 6, EV 12, speed 15, normal MR, dam 16 + poison. Blinks to player, per 1734081. Also found rarely in the main dungeon and Lair. It actually leaps, not blinks.

Once wall-clinging is in, jumping spiders should be able to leap next to any wall in their LOS. — evktalo 2010-10-08 12:49

Tarantella. LIGHTMAGENTA s. “A small but greatly-feared spider whose venom causes its victims to break into a frenzied dance.” HD 4, AC 3, EV 14, speed 15, normal MR, dam 8 + poison + confusion. Appears in large packs. Found only in Nest. (The confusion attack should not take effect if the target takes no damage.)

Needs an attack flavour that does both poison and confusion. It would be good to make the attack flavours artbitarily combinable, so you could just flag the attack as both poisonous and confusing, instead of AF_POISON_CONFUSE or so. — evktalo 2010-07-24 18:37
Implemented in ac0c93165220. I went ahead with just AF_CONFUSE, which means the attack is not negated by poison resistance. This is good, as characters are likely to only enter the branch with rPoison. It is unintuitive, though. I modified the description to mention that it's not resistable. — evktalo 2010-07-27 15:53

Emperor scorpion. “A bigger and deadlier relative of the deadly dungeon scorpion.” LIGHTGREY s. HD 11, AC 5, EV 8, speed 10, low MR, dam 30 + medium poison. Also found rarely in main dungeon and Lair.

Implemented in cfd8f0d56cae. I gave them two additional 11 damage attacks (pincers) for a little more ooomph. They're still a bit underwhelming. Reaching for the stinger would be nice. The same goes for that as tarantella's poison+confusion attack. — evktalo 2010-07-24 18:37
I tried the reaching stinger, but there are a couple of problems: (a) monster reaching code doesn't handle additional attacks, so the pincers were getting reaching too; (b) the main attack didn't work if it was AT_STING for some reason; © the scorpion should close in so it could use the pincers, which would require AI work, and then having the reaching attack would a little redundant, except in crowded situations. — evktalo 2010-07-27 12:26

Ghost moth. Blue or purple y. “A vile interdimensional predator that feeds on the life force of living beings. The few who have seen one and lived say it resembles an enormous spiny moth. Its bizarre lifecycle involves the production of ambrosia, much valued by gods and wizards.” HD 10, AC 10, EV 10, speed 12, invisible, high MR, resists poison, cold and draining, gazes to drain mana, 2 attacks dam 8 + drain XP, one attack 8 + strong poison. Found only in Nest; rare even there, and in Zot.

New ideas

The following are five new ideas for spider-themed monsters to add some more variety to this branch. — wensleydale 2010-10-06 19:39

It seems to me that Spider's Nest could take on a more generalized theme, incorporating more obscure arachnids that may allow for interesting mechanics. I have added three ideas below in this vein and a potential unique for the branch. — croases 2011-06-05 22:52

A general comment: I don't think we need incredibly many spider types: we have the wolf spider, the jumping spider, the tarantella and probably one more. What we definitely want to see in game are the ideas of spider-rush and nets (note how the latter helps the former). Poison is okay to use, but need not be as prominent as in some proposals: we already have Snake.
I believe that webs should not be static traps, but that they could be created whenever spiders (at least certain types are around). This means that despite exploring some part of the map, there may be webs when you come back. This would make Spider a branch where T&D is very good to have, something that'd be new.
The swarm idea (as cloud) is excellent.
By the way, I think that web fires should not propagate. Would trivialise too much, and is already used for trees and wax.
dpeg 2010-10-08 18:25

Theraphosidae

Definitely needs a better name, but this real-life family of spiders is capable of firing barbed hairs at enemies. Since the theme of this branch is supposed to be “swarm of spiders”, giving a few of them a weak ranged attack would increase the danger by allowing you to be attacked by more than eight spiders simultaneously. The range would be very short, only 2-3 squares at most, and the spider would only seek to use it when it can't otherwise reach you to melee you. Note that this family includes tarantulas, and I don't think that there exists a proper “Tarantula” enemy yet: it could simply be a large, posionless spider whose special ability allows it to make a ranged attack (although this sort of attack could also be included for Tarantellas as well).

As far as ranged attack go, I like web-spitting for Spider. The branch should have you swarmed; the layout enables this, and holding you to place while no other monsters are yet in the way is good for swarming. — evktalo 2010-10-08 12:49

Deinopidae

Yet another real-life animal (also known as “net-casting spiders”), this family of spiders weaves webs between their front legs and leaps at their prey, encasing their quarry in web. As an enemy, it could work similarly to the Jumping Spider, except that its jump attack could also have a chance of encasing its target in web (causing the Held condition or replicating the effect of Web Traps). If we don't want another spider with a jump attack, then perhaps this enemy could be a normal spider, except that its first attack that hits the player will also apply a web effect (this would represent its web being used up after its first attack, although I don't know if the code supports attacks having one-time effects like this).

I like this, and think it could be combined with the existing jumping spiders. — evktalo 2010-10-08 12:49

Egg-Laden Spiders and Swarms of Spider Hatchlings

Reinforcing the idea of monsters in this branch swarming the player, this idea has two parts. First, the player sees an “Egg-Laden Spider”, which moves more slowly than a usual spider. Once it is near the player, or once it has been in sight for several turns, the eggs on its back will hatch into eight “Swarms of Spider Hatchlings” that spawn surrounding the original spider.

Each square with a Swarm of Spider Hatchlings is actually full of hundreds of tiny young spiders, with a few unique effects: first, these swarms of hatchlings exist not as true monsters, but as a cloud-like effect: other entities can move through them and they cannot be directly attacked (except by other clouds, which will invariably kill them). Second, instead of immediately attacking the player, these swarms of spiders are ravenously hungry: they will move towards any corpses in sight and will immediately consume all corpses in any square they occupy. Third, if there are no corpses in sight, they will move toward the player. Because they are like clouds, only one swarm can attack the player at a time, although the remaining swarms will surround the player, peacefully coexisting with any spider monsters in those squares (and immediately consuming any corpses of dead spiders that you create). Thematically, these monsters attack by crawling inside your armor and inflicting hundreds of tiny bites; mechanically, being inside one of these clouds causes light damage that bypasses AC (but should respect natural AC such as naga and troll hide, if possible). Once there are no other spiders or corpses in sight, the hatchling swarms should automatically disperse within a few turns.

The final part of this idea is modularity. Any existing spider monster could have a chance of spawning with the “Egg-Laden” status (Egg-Laden Wolf Spider, Egg-Laden Redback, etc.). Furthermore, there could exist a new dungeon feature, “Egg Sac”, which would continually spawn these swarms until it is destroyed. Finally, hatchling swarms could also be an effect of Web Traps or a component of new spider-themed traps, or even an intermittent hell-like effect whenever you are in the Spider's Nest (“You are swarmed by hundreds of tiny spiders!”).

I like the new spider monster ideas, but in particular this one. I think flavour can be increased by sometimes having a hatchlings grow into full spiders (the cloud would just spawn such a spider nearby). — dpeg 2010-10-06 19:56
I like the spider-swarm clouds too. As a side note, it seems that this monster would be hard for heavy armour characters and easy for conjurers (I imagine fireballs and freezing clouds would wipe them out effectively), which is the other way around than the other monsters. Breaking the norm (with an uncommon monster) is completely fine of course (as is simply providing challenge for AC characters). — evktalo 2010-10-08 12:49

Striped Wanderer

Based on the wandering spider (considered by some the most venomous spider in the world), this spider's bite would cause asphyxiation (as per curare). Another name for the wandering spider is “banana spider”, which is suggested as a humorous alternate to “Striped Wanderer” since it would be like renaming “Death Yak” to “Happy Fun Yak”.

I've suggested the same for Viper; not sure if this should be in both branches, but it could be. — evktalo 2010-10-08 12:49

Bolas Spider

This real-life spider captures its prey by hurling a pre-woven web at it. If it misses, it retrieves its bolas and fires again. This enemy would spawn holding a single net (rebranded as a “bolas”) with which it will attempt to trap the player by throwing it. If it misses, it may either simply attack or it may pick up its bolas (or the bolas thrown by any other Bolas Spider) and try again. If it hits, it may cause the “held” condition (as per normal nets) or may replicate the effect of being caught in a Web Trap. The bolas can be destroyed similarly to a normal net by escaping it, although unlike normal nets players should probably not be able to use them.

I don't like introducing new items, and complex(ish) AI behaviour. Plain web-spitting seems better. — evktalo 2010-10-08 12:49

Phoresis Fly

“An overgrown fly burdened with several dozen large ticks hanging from its abdomen. It looks more than eager to deposit its cargo on a hapless adventurer.”

Emulates the concept of phoresis, the “hitchhiking” of mites and other small arachnids on flying animals in order to find new habitats (or hosts when applicable.) Needless to say, you are the host this time, and getting hit by a phoresis fly may give you the Infested condition. This interferes with player movement and slowly drains HP, the latter effect may be useful as a way to bypass player rPois as the equivalent to Snake's abundance of Poison Arrow. The adverse effect to movement might be in form of treating the character as though he was in shallow water (“The ticks weighing down on you cause you to fumble your attack!”) or adding a few dozen aum to the player's carrying capacity so as to burden him. Inflicting the Slow condition is also possible, though that might be a bit too extreme. Sickness is yet another option, but probably should be left as the domain of vampire mosquitoes, which already established the niche of annoying fly enemies.

Either way, this ideally allows the swarms of already agile spiders to catch up to the player, especially if he also bumbles into a web trap on the way. If the carrying capacity decrease is used, phoresis flies may also make for interesting strategic choices, as players will have to decide between entering the Nest with spare carrying capacity to account for infestations and leaving out potentially useful gear, or going in fully equipped and accepting their lot when their speed is lowered by an infestation. The condition probably shouldn't last long, though between the spiders, their webs, swarm clouds and infestation, the damage is likely to rack up quite nicely. Besides, who wouldn't want his adventurer to be covered head to toe with giant ticks?

Another option is phoresis flies spawning giant mites once in a while in addition to infestation attacks.

Infestation message: “Several oversized ticks drop from the phoresis fly and attach to you!”

Infestation end message: “Engorged with blood, the ticks attached to you drop to ground and scurry away.”

Giant Vinegaroon

“This scorpion-like creature boasts no venom, but its growth in size was apparently accompanied by a great increase in the potency of its normally harmless spray of acetic acid.”

An uncommon arachnid that compensates for low HD with a ranged corrosive attack. Mobile mini-Oklobs, as it were, the spray should be weak and the major annoyance should be from the risk of enchantment loss. Its melee is not acidic, but has reach instead (“The giant vinegaroon hits you with its whiplike tail!”) This may enhance the “swarm” theme of Spider's Nest alongside urticating hair and reaching stinger ideas mentioned above, so that you frequently have more than 8 creatures hitting you at once when it's in your best interests to get away from at least one. Players may be encouraged to put another monster (of which there should be no lack in Spider) between themselves and the vinegaroon to block its line of fire and kill it with a weapon of reaching, smite, airstrike, bolt of fire/cold/draining and the like.

Pseudoscorpion

“What first appears to be an ordinary giant scorpion turns out to be an ordinary giant scorpion without a tail. It has venom glands in its pincers to compensate.”

Generic melee monster that entombs itself after fleeing. Players, casters in particular, can take advantage of this retreat if they can get in and kill the resting pseudoscorpion, but as with their real-life counterparts (which are constructed as a safe haven for the animal to moult), those “tombs” are made with crude mud and will crumble quickly. Unlike Khufu's more resilient tomb, those mud walls could also be attackable, so you can smash your way in and use the temporary chokepoint until it breaks down, instead of resorting to dig/disintegration/shatter. Monsters can also break in by the same means, so one shouldn't rely on those tombs too much, which combined with their transient nature should emphasize them as temporary breaks from the hectic mass combat nature of Spider's Nest instead of a consistent way to take on the spiders one-on-one.

Tsuchigumo

(Human) “The flowing robes of this exotic-looking warrior are bent in unusual ways. What is he trying to find in a nest of spiders?”

(Spider) “A tattered robe still remains on the hairy back of this gigantic spider. Its eight eyes gaze at you with malign intelligence.”

A unique that appears as a human and turns into a spider when his first form is killed to attack you once more (“A hideous spider emerges from the twisted body of foo!”) This transformation trick might make him interesting, as you're essentially fighting two rather powerful uniques in succession. Given that every player will pack rPois on his way to Spider's Nest, it would be preferable if his human-form spells weren't poison themed: Bolts of draining seems appropriate for an evil spellcaster, and he may even reanimate the corpses of uneaten spiders (or summon them in his spider form.) Gender is up in the air, spiders are usually associated with seductive women but tsuchigumo, as demonizations of rebellious warriors who refused to follow the Japanese emperor's will, were usually depicted as male. If female, Mesmerise could be a good addition to emulate the seduction effect, and makes it harder to retreat back to gain HP/MP for the spider form once you kill the human form. It also needs a name.

Ironically, genuinely evil spiders are fairly difficult to find in myth (Anansi is neutral at his worst, for example, while Yushkep Kamuy and Uttu are both strictly beneficial mother goddesses) despite their popularity in modern media.

Giant Spider

This is a 3×3 tile monster, intended to be comparable to a Kraken in threat level and in how often you might see one. Its biggest unique feature is that it has a concept of “direction” - it will always be “facing” one of the 8 compass directions.

In game we might have something like this:

.......
.*|/...
.-O-...
./|o.@.
.......

The spider is facing SE. The small 'o' is the head, capital 'O' is the body, '*' is the abdomen and rear two legs, and the six lines are its other legs. (This is just a diagram, not the intended console glyphs)

It has to take turns to rotate to face the player but it does so slowly. It takes two turns to rotate 45 degrees; this occurs independently of movement and attacking actions.

The head has powerful mandibles and a tough carapace. When being attacked in melee it will attempt to rotate the head towards the player so it can bite them. The abdomen can squirt acid. When being attacked from distance it will rotate the abdomen towards the threat and fire acid.

The body has very high HP. The head less so but has AC instead. Destroying the body, head or abdomen kills the spider.

The intent of this is as follows:

a) Melee players should try to attack from the sides and get past the legs to destroy the body and avoid getting bitten

b) Ranged players will also have to get up close to successfully track the spider's rotation to avoid the acid spray

c) A lot of big caster spells will be shut down as a result - most AoE spells, and OoD because you're close - if those are the player's main spells they'll have to find a different approach

d) In any of these cases it forces the player to keep moving around to optimise their attack

The legs can attack you individually. In melee range you'll be getting hit from multiple sides.

The legs can be individually destroyed. They grow back as the monster regenerates, but destroying them will provide you a gap to get in and attack the body, and slightly slow it down.

Some examples …

Player has destroyed a leg and is attacking the body:

.....
.*|/.
.-O-.
.@|o.
.....

Spider is still able to rotate to try to bite you:

.....
.\*/.
.-O-.
.@o\.
.....

The abdomen acid squirt can aim at any tile in a 67.5 degree arc in the direction the abdomen is pointing. This figure is (hopefully) to prevent the player abusing angles to keep the monster turning back and forth.

So if the monster is facing North the spider can fire acid at any of the tiles marked '!' (only one tile at a time of course):

..........
....\o/...
....-O-...
..../*\...
.....!....
....!!!...
....!!!...
...!!!!!..
..!!!!!!!.
..!!!!!!!.
.!!!!!!!!!

If the player stays close they can completely avoid the acid by running around the spider as it turns, and they should have enough spare turns to fire off some spells.

If the player heads into a corridor, the AI can have a tactic of rotating the abdomen to spray acid down the corridor, assuming you're in range; otherwise it will sit at a distance and wait for you. This is to prevent the player tucking themselves away and abusing AoE spells to kill it. — mumra 2012-03-24 04:31

Items

Final chamber contains a Gossamer Rune and a few units of a new food item, ambrosia. Eating a piece of Ambrosia provides 2500 nutrition; also confuses you (clarity prevents) but restores some substantial fraction of MPs. The Ambrosia will make this branch especially valuable to casters, but they'll also find the branch especially dangerous because of the web traps, Jumping Spiders, Tarantellas, and Ghost Moths' mana drain.

Ambrosia implemented; simply utilizises potion of confusion + potion of magic effects. — evktalo 2010-07-27 18:17

Bag of Spiders

Described as “woven silk bag” when unidentified. “A small bag woven from strands of fine silk. Something appears to be moving inside.” When evoked will summon a small number of spiders (or perhaps a larger number of baby spiders?) with a chance of being friendly; power of summons and chance of friendliness scaling with Evocations. Could also produce cobwebs (which in line with my other cobwebs proposal could be used somewhat tactically against monsters as an escape aid).

On interchangeable Lair branches' challenges:

(probably somewhat outdated — evktalo 2010-03-05 09:52)

  • Snake, Spider and Swamp make rPoison important; Shoals doesn't.
  • Shoals and Swamp are good for Merfolk, Ice Elementalists and flying chars. (Eino's note: cold-blooded insects make the slowing ice attacks good in Spider (and Snake).)
  • Poison attacks are powerful in Spider, average in Shoals, useless in Swamp and Snake.
  • Spider is hard for conjurers.
  • Swamp is hard for blade/axe specialists (and trolls) without flaming weapon.
  • Clarity is valuable in Spider and Swamp, not in the other two. (Unless it helps against mesmerize? — evktalo 2010-03-01 19:50)
  • High EV is valuable in Spider and Shoals.

Piecing it to smaller, individually patchable chunks

  • The web trap
  • Wall-clinging for monsters (and player spider form)
  • Jumping spider
  • Tarantella
  • Giant scorpion
  • Ghost moth
  • The ambrosia item
  • Tiles for each (to replace the cheap placeholders)
    • Emperor scorpion
    • Jumping spider
    • Tarantella
    • Ghost moth (kind of ok, even though it's just a palette swap of the moth of wrath)
    • Ambrosia
  • Handling/balancing non-Spider generation of the item and monsters, including acquirement, shops, zombies(?), polymorph(?)
  • New layout generation(s)
    • merging layout_delve to master, improving it
  • Spider:5 vaults
    • I'm doubtful the current monster set is enough to create an interesting, hard enough Spider:5 — evktalo 2010-10-06 16:18

Additional ideas

  • Unique giant tarantula “Terrorantula” spits spider webs that act similar to nets. — purge
  • A web-spitting spider. (edit: … it's right in the above line, isn't it?) — evktalo 2010-03-01 19:51
  • Spider god. That's an ancient idea, or at least, several people came up with the term at least. For my purposes, all I want is a god which only spiders (and other invertebrates) can worship. Details are not so important, someone will pull off a spider form win with this god. — dpeg 2010-03-01 22:21
  • To me, this branch sounds like it would work better as a replacement for Hive than a Lair sub-branch. (I guess it can be both.) — minmay
    • Could be done, but note that (a) Hive has no rune (and I don't think it should get one) and (b) Hive will have to be changed (the current model is to make it a portal vault, so that you only have one go at it, and then add some mechanic making players having to race for the loot, at least if they want to maximise the food). Unless you come up with a completely different plan for Hive, it seems better to add Spider to the Lair system. What I could imagine, however, is something like this: branches which didn't come up in your game can have portal vaults. — dpeg 2010-09-02 01:54
    • By “replacement,” I meant get rid of Hive (or make it a portal vault) and put Spider where Hive was. I didn't mean randomly exchange them as is done for Lair sub-branches. — minmay 2010-09-19 2:26

Gameplay feedback

Orb spiders try to maintain range and you have to corner them to attack them in melee. This is ridiculous. The same thing was tried in 4.1 with centaurs, and it was an utter disaster - the only difference here is that orb spiders aren't an actual threat so it doesn't completely ruin the game's balance and instead just adds a monster that's really obnoxious to any character without renewable ranged. But it is obnoxious - I've been playing DCSS since 0.4 and this is by far the single most pointlessly annoying monster I've ever seen by a huge margin. — minmay 2012-03-19 16:29

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dcss/brainstorm/dungeon/branch/spider.txt · Last modified: 2012-03-24 09:29 by mumra
 
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