Replace Trog Weapon Gifts with...

[TwilightPhoenix]

...more space in the subject line.

This idea came to me semi-randomly after reading a few comments in that Jewel god proposal. I don't know why since it's not really related, but inspiration works in mysterious ways. Anyway, let's keep this short and sweet. There's three aspects to this proposal.

-Trog no longer gifts weapons. Ammo gifts can remain.

-When Berserking, Trog enhances your weapon for the duration of the Berserk. The strength of the enhancement depends on piety and can go above +9/+9. This includes not only the +X/+X bonuses, but also allows Trog to apply the Anti-Magic brand to the weapon. Whether this only works with unbranded weapons, temporarily replaces the brand on weapons, or adds it in addition to the weapon would depend on balance and all of that. Trog can also enhance artifact weapons. I know, they can't be changed by magic and mundane means, but there's already precedence with divine means being able to change them, such as Elyvilon-followers being able to sacrifice them.

Again, these enhancements are temporary and wear off once Berserk ends.

-While following Trog (and no other time), players can use projectile weapons while Berserking. This is the least important bit here, but I bring it up because removing weapon gifts would hurt ranged-fighters a bit without any compensation. And I also don't want to try to shoehorn Trog into a pure melee god. I think it'd be a nifty perk to allow players to furiously shoot arrows or throw javelins while being a Troglodyte. Note that evocables, potions, scrolls, and all the other things are still unable to be used under Berserk.

Unfortunately, this proposal doesn't do anything for Unarmed Troglodytes. But, on the other hand, it doesn't hurt them either. I can't think of something (good) to give them with this proposal, so I'm just going to leave them with the status quo.


The aim of this proposal is to replace a somewhat uninteresting, redundant (hi Oka!), and somewhat problematic (So long and thanks for all the loot!) mechanic with something that seems more interesting and definitely more thematic. After all, Trog is the god of RAAAAAAAGGGGEEE, not the angry guy with a cluttered attic.

Naturally, this may be an awful idea and, if so, please proceed to tear it apart. If something gets salvaged that improves the game somehow, then hey, that works for me.

[Sandman25]

I like idea of temporary branding, it makes "get anti-magic weapon from Trog and abandon him later" problem go away. I think it should not happen during berserk but be available while you are with Trog, berserk is dangerous late game especially if you are below 6 stars piety (berserk can result in passing out).

[WalkerBoh]

My only criticism of this is that berserk is already really good. Making it marginally better with weapon enchants doesn't seem like it adds anything special to decisions you make; it just means you use berserk sliiiightly more readily.

I do like the idea of trog allowing ranged combat while berserk. That has always bugged me.

[TeshiAlair]

Another idea- at max piety, EVERYTHING becomes a ranged weapon. Thrown weapons embed in walls to prevent enemies from picking them up willy nilly.

*checks board*
I'm sorry, I'll go back to CYC now.

But actually, I do like the idea of Trog buffing weapons more than just giving them. As was said though, berserk is already pretty darn good. What about if the longer you are in combat, the stronger your weapon gets? This would encourage the Trog-like behavior of not waiting to heal all the way, or to use Trogs hand to prolong your fight.

[acvar]

I am not sure why you would want to remove weapon gifts, but here are some suggestions on what to replace them with:

1: Instead of Trog gifting weapons with anti-magic one of Trogs powers is that his followers attacks disrupt spellcasters like an anti-magic brand.

2: Instead of gifting weapons Trog could "gift" enchantments to the characters weapon. Basically free scrolls of ehchant/brand weapon but without the actual scrolls.

[duvessa]

I still don't understand why you would ever abandon Trog if you are trying to win.

[rchandra]

Yeah there's at least some merit to abandoning Okawaru, sometimes, but even that is done (or talked about) way too much. Trog you just keep and get as many runes as you feel comfortable with, then win. I don't see any need to remove the gifts.

to elaborate: Trog gifts are not uninteresting. They give you very real decisions on weapon enchantment, weighing benefits now vs more benefits on and "endgame" weapon which you know you will get sometime.
They are not redundant with okawaru gifts since Okawaru gifts are much less reliable (armour gifts, piety mechanic) and much less good.
Leaving with the gifts is not a concern, as duvessay pointed out. I don't think it's a relevant concern with okawaru either, for that matter.

[TwilightPhoenix]

What about if the longer you are in combat, the stronger your weapon gets? This would encourage the Trog-like behavior of not waiting to heal all the way, or to use Trogs hand to prolong your fight.

This could work too. I would tie it to something like kills, damage inflicted to enemies, or something else that requires the player to stay involved in combat. Tension's a bit of a shoddy mechanic, but it having to stay above a certain threshold to keep the enhancement ought to prevent people from kiting rats to keep their buffs.

to elaborate: Trog gifts are not uninteresting. They give you very real decisions on weapon enchantment, weighing benefits now vs more benefits on and "endgame" weapon which you know you will get sometime.
They are not redundant with okawaru gifts since Okawaru gifts are much less reliable (armour gifts, piety mechanic) and much less good.

You could pretty much change "Trog gifts" to "floor trash" and those two points would be just as accurate. Really, the only difference between weapon gifts and weapons found on the floor are the "God Gift" tag and a bit of weighting towards the Anti-Magic brand for Trog. In either case, you're going to be ignoring 99% of them while still making the same decisions such as "Do I enchant this now or hang onto my scrolls?"

Also, the only reason people generally don't leave Trog is because Trog has one of the nastiest wraths in the game. If it was less nasty, people would be more inclined to do it. But wrath in general is currently a bit problematic and that's a discussion outside the scope of this proposal.

[dck]

People don't leave trog because trog is one of the best gods in the game.

[Tiktacy]

I still don't understand why you would ever abandon Trog if you are trying to win.

Duvessa, me and you seem to disagree on a lot of things, but this is something I'de have to agree with you on.

As for the OP, I think trog is the only god in the game that DOESN'T need to be changed or improved in some way shape or form. Sorry, but -1.

[Tiktacy]

People don't leave trog because trog is one of the best gods in the game.

Sometimes, I start as a berserker then later on I abandon trog to try doing something a bit different. Not exactly what you would call "optimal"(at all, really) but its mostly just for the fun of trying something new.

That being said, leaving trog for extended end-game is definitely a choice worth considering. Berserked stone giants are strong, but hasted angels are much, much better. Also, berserk is a bit more risky during extended, and not quite as useful since the danger tends to lie in specific combinations of poorly timed creature spawns, not powerful singular enemies. Although, having an amulet of rage on hand is pretty common practice for me.

[mikee]

Really, the only difference between weapon gifts and weapons found on the floor are the "God Gift" tag and a bit of weighting towards the Anti-Magic brand for Trog.

uh, no? the gifts are obviously better? they also have the highest potential damage enchantment out of any items in the game...

Also, the only reason people generally don't leave Trog is because Trog has one of the nastiest wraths in the game.

no

[Mankeli]

Also, the only reason people generally don't leave Trog is because Trog has one of the nastiest wraths in the game.

no

The first time I saw my three (overkill, I know) BiAs beating the shit out of Lom Lobon so fast, that I struggled to get to Lom in time to give the finishing blows I realized, that berserking iron trolls/stone giants or even lousy deep trolls (at least in terms of damage output) never run out of steam.

I don't really like the proposed change because I think Trog is really one of the best gods in the game in terms of fun and in terms of design as well (berserk is an interesting mechanic) and I think this proposal would make Trog worse in that regard.

[nago]

Wrongly thanked a message

[dpeg]

I think that Trog is mostly fine. There have been changes over the years (Trog used to give Might after Berserk, and once upon time there were no brothers, and no books were burned) but it's okay now. Perhaps some changes to piety (move from corpse sacrifice to kill under rage or something) but that's nowhere urgent.

When I complain about gifts, I never really mean weapons, and especially not Trog weapons (since those are special).

[Bloax]

The aim of this proposal is to replace a somewhat problematic (So long and thanks for all the loot!) mechanic

Just because we're crazy or sturdy (eg. MiBe swapping for TSO for extended) enough to do it then I can't see what's so problematic about it.
It's not like you won't occasionally get a visit by a squad of berserk giants, which is exactly as bad as it sounds if you are none of those two things.

[bastard]

What, exactly, is problematic about Trog's weapon gifting system?

[jejorda2]

What, exactly, is problematic about Trog's weapon gifting system?

-It's very similar to Oka's weapon gifting system
-It's very similar to weapon acquirement from scrolls
-It's somewhat similar to finding a trove full of weapons
-If you squint, it kind of looks like chancing upon a good weapon on the floor

Crawl gods should have mechanics that aren't in other parts of the game, and the mechanics should change your decisions more than other parts of the game do. Weapons are in lots of other parts of the game, and Trog doesn't change how you choose your weapon. The other parts of Trog are strong enough that the weapon gifts are a side bonus and some nice flavor.

Even writing this, I'm not convinced it's a big problem worth solving. Someone else may see a different problem with Trog weapon gifts.

[Sar]

Trog doesn't change how you choose your weapon

With Trog I will often go for a less common weapon category (i.e. not Maces and Flails) because I'm sure I will get a top weapon.

[battaile]

What, exactly, is problematic about Trog's weapon gifting system?

-It's very similar to Oka's weapon gifting system
-It's very similar to weapon acquirement from scrolls
-It's somewhat similar to finding a trove full of weapons
-If you squint, it kind of looks like chancing upon a good weapon on the floor

I think you are drastically undervaluing top tier anti-magic weapons and top tier high enchantment artifact weapons.

[duvessa]

Trog gifts have a huge effect on weapon choice. Most obviously you are much more likely to choose a weapon with anti-magic, but in addition to that it completely changes weapon category balance: weapons in general become better compared to unarmed because of the better selection, axes and long blades gain more traction against maces because you actually have a decent chance of getting the biggest ones, and giant (spiked) clubs become dramatically better because you get artifact ones that actually have brands.
Ammo gifts also make ranged weapons stronger for a significant period of time; centaur and yaktaur packs don't show up routinely until after Lair, and there aren't any other reliable sources of sling bullets at all.

[whitmo]

Trog's artifact giant spiked clubs for Tr/Og/Fo are insanely good.
For other races I really enjoy staff-trog for the artifact lajatang gifts.

[bastard]

What, exactly, is problematic about Trog's weapon gifting system?

-It's very similar to Oka's weapon gifting system
-It's very similar to weapon acquirement from scrolls
-It's somewhat similar to finding a trove full of weapons
-If you squint, it kind of looks like chancing upon a good weapon on the floor

Crawl gods should have mechanics that aren't in other parts of the game, and the mechanics should change your decisions more than other parts of the game do. Weapons are in lots of other parts of the game, and Trog doesn't change how you choose your weapon. The other parts of Trog are strong enough that the weapon gifts are a side bonus and some nice flavor.

Even writing this, I'm not convinced it's a big problem worth solving. Someone else may see a different problem with Trog weapon gifts.

Three things:
If Crawl gods should have their own unique mechanics and nothing else, I can honestly say that there is a lot of work to be done on Makhleb and Lugonu.

I don't see why you post that getting weapon gifts is a lot like finding a weapon; I figured that was kind of obvious.

I cannot see why someone would pick a god purely for the gifts (Nemelex excepted, I guess?). I agree, they're definitely nice, but they remain a side bonus, as you said. I just fail to see why this is problematic. A god of anger gives his subjects instruments to kill with.

[Maynot]

I like the idea of making everything a weapon with Trog. It would feel so good to pummel spell casters to death with a spell book. Throwing anything would have damage based on weight. Melee would be based a bit on weight and item type.

[XuaXua]

I like the idea of making everything a weapon with Trog. It would feel so good to pummel spell casters to death with a spell book. Throwing anything would have damage based on weight. Melee would be based a bit on weight and item type.

The ability for Trog to provided branded anything... +12 / +12 Bread against Mara!

[and into]

Trog is a very strong god and, more important, a very well designed one. Dpeg is right that only the sometimes tedious problem of corpse sacrificing (a minor problem that isn't unique to Trog) is the only thing that might need some consideration and tweaking.

Also, consider this about guaranteed weapon gifting—unlike armor, every weapon Trog gives can be switched to in half a turn, so any artifacts, *regardless* of what type, that he gives with stuff like +Blink, +Fly, etc., are nearly guaranteed to be useful to his followers. (Only exceptions being if +Contam or the like also spawns on the item, or two-handed weapon given when you are using shield.) Doubly so since you aren't going to be learning and casting those spells while worshiping Trog. So that's just one more reason why Trog's gifting tends to be more meaningful and thematic / flavorful for his followers, than Oka's is to his.

[Klown]

Walkerboh: Berserk ranged attacks <3 I enjoy trog over okawaru since oka requires 10,000 corpses sacrificed to get ** piety(slightly exaggerating). May be seen as too OP though. :p

[Sandman25]

Oka does not care much about corpses of weak monsters indeed. But it is possible to get 2 gifts after sacrificing corpse of Saint Roka, Trog cannot do it.