YASD: HEAE of Veh : Holy Pan, batman! (6/15)

Tuesday, 12th November 2013, 03:11 by Hurkyl

Taking another run at making an HEAE tornado hybrid. I'm training strength this game as Sandman suggested, with the intent of wearing medium armors (e.g. FDA or elven scale mail) mid game to see how I like that.

My previous game had all but screamed that I should focus on melee and ranged attacks. This time, crawl seems to wants me to play a blaster, via offering me a a ring of magical power and a book of conjurations. But that's okay: HE can play blaster, and training to make good use of the book of conjurations certainly leads towards my ultimate goals for this character!

I have been mulling over whether to go Okawaru (as suggested by Sandman) or Vehumet -- the book of conjurations seems to imply I should stick to my original Vehumet plan. Of course, crawl never likes to make any decision easy: after finding the temple on D:7, there is no Vehumet altar! (Elyvilon is the only other one missing)

This looks like a good time to take a break.

Code:: Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.13.0 (tiles) character file. Kelly the Nimble (High Elf Air Elementalist) Turns: 5866, Time: 00:36:51 HP 51/51 AC 7 Str 10 XL: 9 Next: 15% MP 33/33 EV 22 Int 19 God: Gold 258 SH 10 Dex 17 Spells: 7 memorised, 1 level left Res.Fire : . . . See Invis. : . a - dwarf dagger Res.Cold : . . . Warding : . o - +0 elf robe Life Prot.: . . . Conserve : . z - +1 dwarf buckler Res.Poison: . Res.Corr. : . I - +1 spiked helmet Res.Elec. : . Clarity : . (no cloak) Sust.Abil.: . . Spirit.Shd : + (no gloves) Res.Mut. : . Stasis : . n - +2 pair of boots Res.Rott. : . Flight : . r - amulet of guardian spirit Saprovore : . . . u - ring of magical power f - +5 ring of evasion @: somewhat resistant to hostile enchantments, fairly stealthy A: no striking features a: no special abilities You are in the Ecumenical Temple. You are not hungry. You have visited 2 branches of the dungeon, and seen 8 of its levels. You have collected 238 gold pieces. Inventory: Hand weapons a - an uncursed glowing dwarven dagger (weapon) E - an uncursed blowgun T - an uncursed bow Missiles e - 50 arrows M - 9 poisoned needles Armour n - a +2 pair of boots (worn) o - a +0 elven robe (worn) z - a +1 dwarven buckler (worn) I - a +1 spiked helmet (worn) Comestibles J - 2 apples Scrolls j - a scroll of teleportation w - a scroll of blinking G - a scroll of fear Jewellery f - a +5 ring of evasion (left hand) r - an amulet of guardian spirit (around neck) u - a ring of magical power (right hand) y - an uncursed ring of teleport control Potions g - 2 potions of invisibility i - 2 potions of heal wounds s - a potion of speed B - 3 potions of curing Books t - a book of Air Spells Type Level *Shock Conjuration/Air 1 *Swiftness Charms/Air 2 *Repel Missiles Charms/Air 2 Flight Charms/Air 3 *Static Discharge Conjuration/Air 3 *Lightning Bolt Conjuration/Air 5 Q - a book of Conjurations Spells Type Level Magic Dart Conjuration 1 *Searing Ray Conjuration 2 Dazzling Spray Conjuration/Hexes 3 Iskenderun's Mystic Blast Conjuration 4 *Iskenderun's Battlesphere Conjuration/Charms 4 Fulminant Prism Conjuration/Hexes 5 Skills: - Level 8.0 Dodging - Level 2.5 Stealth - Level 1.0 Shields - Level 6.1 Spellcasting * Level 6.4 Conjurations + Level 0.5 Charms + Level 7.3 Air Magic You have one spell level left. You know the following spells: Your Spells Type Power Failure Level Hunger a - Searing Ray Conj ####.. 1% 2 None b - Iskenderun's Battles Conj/Chrm ###..... 28% 4 ####... f - Shock Conj/Air #### 1% 1 None g - Static Discharge Conj/Air ####.... 1% 3 ##..... h - Lightning Bolt Conj/Air ####...... 21% 5 #####.. r - Repel Missiles Chrm/Air ###....... 3% 2 None s - Swiftness Chrm/Air ###....... 3% 2 None Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations Branches: Dungeon (7/27) Temple (1/1) D:7 Orc: D:6-11

Tuesday, 12th November 2013, 03:41 by Sandman25

Yes, you went conjuration path so Vehumet is the best for you IMHO. My HEAE already had 7 levels in Bows at XL 9.
Good luck!

Edit. I mean I would look for Vehumet. HE always has something to train so late spells from Vehumet should not be a problem.

Tuesday, 12th November 2013, 04:34 by Hurkyl

I only just found the bow.

(and only other weapons of 'note' are an elven rapier and a long sword. Rather slim pickings for melee combat)

My previous game went similarly in the opening: train up spellcasting/conjurations/air until I was happy, then dodging, then short blades, then back to dodging/fighting. Actually, I vaguely recall stopping at 4/6/6 in those magic schools -- I think had found a Vehumet altar on D:2 and so I got "Vehumet supports your magic" really early, so that I could cast lightning bolt reliably already with such minimal investment. I hadn't realized how significant that effect is for early game magic!

Tuesday, 12th November 2013, 04:38 by Sandman25

Well, If you just couldn't train Bows (but wanted to

) then go with Oka. Heroism helps to survive the hardest part of the game and HE can get only stronger later.

Tuesday, 12th November 2013, 05:02 by duvessa

Syntax error: no expression on true side of conditional

Tuesday, 12th November 2013, 07:55 by Hurkyl

Fortunately, Vehumet altar was not far away from temple, so I'm going that route.

I cleared a few more levels (including a scare with an unseen horror that I managed to escape. I didn't think to use static discharge

), and decided on orc for my next destination.

Vehumet offers Orb of Destruction! Quite early too. I spend a scroll of amnesia to ensure I can snag it, although it turned out to be unnecessary. Will take a while to get castable, though.

Orc offers a robe of the archmagi (I'll stick with rF+) and a nice artifact glove. Also a storm dragon hide: only 11 encumbrance! Fortunately, I check the wiki since I was pretty sure storm dragon armour was not a medium armor, and save myself from wasting money.

I also wrest an elven dagger of electrocution from the cold, dead hands of Josephine, so now I have to decide what to do about it. Training up more conjurations to get Orb of Destruction reliable enough to obliterate the nasty things in the Lair is very appealing, and it fits with my long-term plans. However, having the dagger at min delay is also appealing, but in a different way, as is stabbing damage. Battlesphere, shock, and searing ray are all very good: it's not clear I should actually use the dagger if things close to melee range, except possibly for wimpy enemies. And short blade skill will be wasted in the long run.

I should probably go buy that phial of floods before I continue in dungeon.

Code:: Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.13.0 (tiles) character file. Kelly the Conjurer (High Elf Air Elementalist) Turns: 13693, Time: 01:51:12 HP 76/76 AC 12 Str 11 XL: 12 Next: 16% MP 39/39 EV 24 Int 20 God: Vehumet [*****.] Gold 2502 SH 10 Dex 17 Spells: 8 memorised, 2 levels left Res.Fire : + . . See Invis. : + a - elf dagger (elec) Res.Cold : . . . Warding : . c - +2 orc robe {rF+} Life Prot.: . . . Conserve : + z - +1 dwarf buckler Res.Poison: . Res.Corr. : . I - +1 spiked helmet Res.Elec. : + Clarity : . x - +1 elf cloak Sust.Abil.: . . Spirit.Shd : . E - +0 pair of gloves "Smasopp" {rElec SInv Stlth++} Res.Mut. : . Stasis : . n - +2 pair of boots Res.Rott. : . Flight : . b - amulet of conservation Saprovore : . . . u - ring of magical power f - +5 ring of evasion @: somewhat resistant to hostile enchantments, extremely stealthy A: no striking features a: Renounce Religion You are in the Ecumenical Temple. You worship Vehumet. Vehumet is extremely pleased with you. You are hungry. You have visited 3 branches of the dungeon, and seen 15 of its levels. You have also visited: Bailey. You have collected 3092 gold pieces. You have spent 610 gold pieces at shops. Inventory: Hand weapons a - an uncursed elven dagger of electrocution (weapon) T - an uncursed bow Missiles e - 50 arrows m - 10 arrows of frost K - 11 arrows of dispersal W - 14 poisoned arrows Armour c - a +2 orcish robe of fire resistance (worn) n - a +2 pair of boots (worn) x - a +1 elven cloak (worn) z - a +1 dwarven buckler (worn) E - the +0 pair of gloves "Smasopp" (worn) {rElec SInv Stlth++} (You bought it in a shop on level 4 of the Orcish Mines) It insulates you from electricity. It enhances your eyesight. It makes you much more stealthy. I - a +1 spiked helmet (worn) Magical devices h - a wand of lightning {zapped: 1} k - a wand of cold {zapped: 1} o - a wand of teleportation {zapped: 2} P - a wand of paralysis {zapped: 2} V - a twisted ivory wand X - a bone wand {zapped: 3} {tried by monster} Comestibles C - a rotting chunk of orc flesh J - an apple Scrolls j - 3 scrolls of teleportation w - a scroll of blinking G - a scroll of fear Jewellery b - an amulet of conservation (around neck) f - a +5 ring of evasion (left hand) r - an uncursed amulet of guardian spirit u - a ring of magical power (right hand) y - an uncursed ring of teleport control U - a +4 ring of strength Potions g - 2 potions of invisibility i - 2 potions of heal wounds s - 2 potions of speed B - 3 potions of curing Skills: - Level 7.5 Fighting - Level 10.1 Dodging - Level 6.6 Stealth - Level 1.0 Shields - Level 8.5 Spellcasting + Level 12.5 Conjurations - Level 2.1 Charms - Level 8.5 Air Magic You have 2 spell levels left. You know the following spells: Your Spells Type Power Failure Level Hunger a - Searing Ray Conj ###### 1% 2 None b - Iskenderun's Battles Conj/Chrm #####... 1% 4 ###.... c - Orb of Destruction Conj ######.... 12% 7 ####### f - Shock Conj/Air #### 1% 1 None g - Static Discharge Conj/Air ######.. 1% 3 None h - Lightning Bolt Conj/Air ######.... 1% 5 ####... r - Repel Missiles Chrm/Air ####...... 1% 2 None s - Swiftness Chrm/Air ####...... 1% 2 None Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations Branches: Dungeon (10/27) Temple (1/1) D:7 Orc (4/4) D:7 Elf (0/3) Orc:4 Lair: D:8-13 Altars: Ashenzari Cheibriados Elyvilon Fedhas Kikubaaqudgha Makhleb Nemelex Xobeh Okawaru Sif Muna Trog Vehumet Xom Yredelemnul Zin the Shining One Shops: D:6 } D:7 [ Orc:2 * Orc:3 * Orc:4 **[[ Annotations: D:1 Stuck loot D:7 exclusions: downstairs and electric eel

Tuesday, 12th November 2013, 08:05 by Hurkyl

Scratch that, was running the estimates wrong. Electrocution averages around 7 damage per hit -- not around 1d7 damage -- so having the dagger at min delay would make it a good choice to use against enemies in melee range. (but probably not at 0 skill)

Tuesday, 12th November 2013, 10:15 by Hurkyl

Nothing like entering a Labyrinth with an apple and a couple orc chunks. Landed in a bad spot of the maze too: I think I would have been in danger of starvation if one of my un-ID'd wands didn't turn out to be disintegration!

Only real prize, and a nice prize at that, is a manual of dodging. The +4,-1 quick blade of cobwebs {stab, Noisy Str+2 Int+4} ... not so much. Even if I get that ring of +2,+6 slaying I found in a shop.

Now that my short blade skill is up to 8, crawl decides to throw me another curveball: the +7,+10 long sword "Mucrid" {freeze, +Fly, MR++, SInv}.

Did some wizmode testing: against a yak, looks equivalent in damage to a +6 dagger of electrocution, assuming I train both skills to min delay (both do around 14 damage per 1.0 aut). The dagger is +1,+0 currently. (effectively +3,+0, I think, due to elf) Of course, 14 long blade skill is quite a ways away, so the dagger will still serve me well in the meanwhile.

So, I think the new plan is

Finish short blades up to 10
Finish training up conjurations to get Orb of Destruction reliable
Exhaust the dodging manual
Get poison cloud online
Train up long blades
Train up fighting
Go for chain lightning / tornado

Although... if I'm pretending to play a runelock game, maybe I should bump up the priority on long blades, since I might want to keep the MR++ on at all times so I don't get any annoying surprises. (Kirke, grumble grumble)

I usually tackle Elf:3 with Freezing Cloud. How well does Poison Cloud work in its stead? I might want to clear Elf:3 before getting chain lightning going.

Code:: Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.13.0 (tiles) character file. Kelly the Conjurer (High Elf Air Elementalist) Turns: 16923, Time: 02:18:39 HP 76/76 AC 12 Str 11 XL: 12 Next: 84% MP 41/41 EV 24 Int 20 God: Vehumet [*****.] Gold 2910 SH 10 Dex 17 Spells: 9 memorised, 0 levels left Res.Fire : + . . See Invis. : + a - +1,+0 elf dagger (elec) Res.Cold : . . . Warding : . c - +2 orc robe {rF+} Life Prot.: . . . Conserve : + z - +1 dwarf buckler Res.Poison: . Res.Corr. : . I - +1 spiked helmet Res.Elec. : + Clarity : . x - +1 elf cloak Sust.Abil.: . . Spirit.Shd : . E - +0 pair of gloves "Smasopp" {rElec SInv Stlth++} Res.Mut. : . Stasis : . n - +2 pair of boots Res.Rott. : . Flight : . b - amulet of conservation Saprovore : . . . u - ring of magical power f - +5 ring of evasion @: studying Dodging, somewhat resistant to hostile enchantments, extremely stealthy A: no striking features a: Renounce Religion You are on level 1 of the Lair of Beasts. You worship Vehumet. Vehumet is extremely pleased with you. You are not hungry. You have visited 4 branches of the dungeon, and seen 18 of its levels. You have also visited: Labyrinth and Bailey. You have collected 3500 gold pieces. You have spent 610 gold pieces at shops. Inventory: Hand weapons a - a +1,+0 elven dagger of electrocution (weapon) A - the +7,+10 long sword "Mucrid" {freeze, +Fly MR++ SInv} (You found it on level 1 of the Lair of Beasts) It has been specially enchanted to freeze those struck by it, causing extra injury to most foes and up to double damage against particularly susceptible opponents. It can also slow down cold-blooded creatures. It affects your resistance to hostile enchantments. It enhances your eyesight. It lets you fly. T - an uncursed bow Missiles e - 66 arrows m - 10 arrows of frost K - 11 arrows of dispersal W - 14 poisoned arrows Armour c - a +2 orcish robe of fire resistance (worn) n - a +2 pair of boots (worn) x - a +1 elven cloak (worn) z - a +1 dwarven buckler (worn) E - the +0 pair of gloves "Smasopp" (worn) {rElec SInv Stlth++} (You bought it in a shop on level 4 of the Orcish Mines) It insulates you from electricity. It enhances your eyesight. It makes you much more stealthy. I - a +1 spiked helmet (worn) Magical devices h - a wand of lightning {zapped: 1} k - a wand of cold {zapped: 1} o - a wand of teleportation {zapped: 2} P - a wand of paralysis {zapped: 2} V - a wand of disintegration {zapped: 3} X - a wand of confusion (13) Comestibles d - a bread ration p - a pear D - 3 chunks of hippogriff flesh F - a chunk of adder flesh Scrolls j - 4 scrolls of teleportation q - 3 scrolls of identify t - a scroll of enchant weapon II v - a scroll of magic mapping w - a scroll of blinking G - a scroll of fear Jewellery b - an amulet of conservation (around neck) f - a +5 ring of evasion (left hand) u - a ring of magical power (right hand) y - an uncursed ring of teleport control U - a +4 ring of strength Potions g - 2 potions of invisibility i - 2 potions of heal wounds s - 2 potions of speed B - 5 potions of curing Books l - a book of Control Spells Type Level Control Teleport Charms/Translocation 4 Control Undead Necromancy 4 Enslavement Hexes 4 Mass Confusion Hexes 6 Metabolic Englaciation Hexes/Ice 6 r - a manual of Dodging Skills: - Level 7.5 Fighting + Level 8.1 Short Blades - Level 10.1 Dodging - Level 6.6 Stealth - Level 1.0 Shields - Level 10.5 Spellcasting - Level 12.5 Conjurations - Level 2.1 Charms - Level 8.5 Air Magic You cannot memorise any spells. You know the following spells: Your Spells Type Power Failure Level Hunger a - Searing Ray Conj ###### 1% 2 None b - Iskenderun's Battles Conj/Chrm #####... 1% 4 ##..... c - Orb of Destruction Conj ######.... 10% 7 ####### d - Poisonous Cloud Conj/Pois/Air #####..... 22% 6 ######. f - Shock Conj/Air #### 1% 1 None g - Static Discharge Conj/Air ######.. 1% 3 None h - Lightning Bolt Conj/Air ######.... 1% 5 ####... r - Repel Missiles Chrm/Air ####...... 1% 2 None s - Swiftness Chrm/Air ####...... 1% 2 None Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations Branches: Dungeon (12/27) Temple (1/1) D:7 Orc (4/4) D:7 Elf (0/3) Orc:4 Lair (1/8) D:12 Altars: Ashenzari Cheibriados Elyvilon Fedhas Kikubaaqudgha Makhleb Nemelex Xobeh Okawaru Sif Muna Trog Vehumet Xom Yredelemnul Zin the Shining One Shops: D:6 } D:7 [ D:12 = Orc:2 * Orc:3 * Orc:4 **[[ Portals: Trove: D:11 (show slimy rune of Zot)

Tuesday, 12th November 2013, 13:11 by Hurkyl

D:13 had a vault with treasure! And I did something I really did not expect to do with this character: I played sneaky stabber. Well, it's more like I turned a corner, and wound up right next to two stone giants guarding the treasure. *Stab* nearly killed the one, other didn't wake up. Retreat, battlesphere it to death, loop around... *stab*. One-shot the other one. I have a +0 cloak of darkness now if I ever want to try that again... but I'm sticking with my +1 elven cloak for now.

Time to try lair branches for voluntary rune lock challenge!

I forgot sea snakes can be pretty scary in the shoals, particularly without rPois: burned a teleport to stay safe. Found a scroll of acquirement in shoals too -- I'm not ready to acquire a staff of air, so I grab armor.

Code:: the +2 ring mail of Articulation (worn) {+Rage rPois rC++ rN+ Str-4}

Okay, that would solve the rPois problem. And I have enough strength to wear it even with that penalty, but just barely (don't pay attention to the 12 str in the dump: I forgot to swap my Str+4 ring back for my EV+5 ring). This defeats all my training to get OOD reliable, but the rPois, better AC, and GDR may make up for that.

Shoals is dangerous: now that I have rPois let's try the Spider's Nest instead.

Oh right, spider is pretty dangerous for players that mainly rely on EV and aren't as fast as Spriggans, grumble grumble. At least I survived my multiple jumping spider + lone wolf spider encounter. (was an orb spider in there too, but it wasn't placed anywhere where it could be scary)

Hrm. Need to think more about where to go next. Time for another break anyways.

Code:: Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.13.0 (tiles) character file. Kelly the Spry (High Elf Air Elementalist) Turns: 30797, Time: 03:51:50 HP 93/93 AC 15 Str 12 XL: 15 Next: 46% MP 44/44 EV 21 Int 20 God: Vehumet [*****.] Gold 2554 SH 10 Dex 18 Spells: 10 memorised, 1 level left Res.Fire : . . . See Invis. : + a - +7,+10 long sword "Mucrid" {freeze, +Fly MR++ SInv} Res.Cold : + + . Warding : . q - +2 ring mail of Articulation {+Rage rPois rC++ rN+ Str-4} Life Prot.: + . . Conserve : + z - +1 dwarf buckler Res.Poison: + Res.Corr. : . I - +1 spiked helmet Res.Elec. : + Clarity : . x - +1 elf cloak Sust.Abil.: . . Spirit.Shd : . E - +0 pair of gloves "Smasopp" {rElec SInv Stlth++} Res.Mut. : . Stasis : . n - +2 pair of boots Res.Rott. : . Flight : . A - amulet of conservation Saprovore : . . . u - cursed ring of magical power U - +4 ring of strength @: extremely resistant to hostile enchantments, extremely stealthy A: no striking features a: Renounce Religion, Evoke Berserk Rage, Evoke Flight You are on level 1 of the Spider Nest. You worship Vehumet. Vehumet is extremely pleased with you. You are not hungry. You have visited 6 branches of the dungeon, and seen 30 of its levels. You have also visited: Labyrinth and Bailey. You have collected 4344 gold pieces. You have spent 1810 gold pieces at shops. Inventory: Hand weapons a - the +7,+10 long sword "Mucrid" (weapon) {freeze, +Fly MR++ SInv} (You found it on level 1 of the Lair of Beasts) It has been specially enchanted to freeze those struck by it, causing extra injury to most foes and up to double damage against particularly susceptible opponents. It can also slow down cold-blooded creatures. It affects your resistance to hostile enchantments. It enhances your eyesight. It lets you fly. b - a +2,+3 elven dagger of electrocution (quivered) Armour n - a +2 pair of boots (worn) p - a +0 pair of elven boots q - the +2 ring mail of Articulation (worn) {+Rage rPois rC++ rN+ Str-4} (You acquired it on level 1 of the Shoals) It affects your strength (-4). It greatly protects you from cold. It protects you from poison. It protects you from negative energy. It lets you go berserk. x - a +1 elven cloak (worn) z - a +1 dwarven buckler (worn) E - the +0 pair of gloves "Smasopp" (worn) {rElec SInv Stlth++} (You bought it in a shop on level 4 of the Orcish Mines) It insulates you from electricity. It enhances your eyesight. It makes you much more stealthy. I - a +1 spiked helmet (worn) Magical devices h - a wand of lightning {zapped: 1} k - a wand of cold {zapped: 1} o - a wand of teleportation {zapped: 2} v - a shiny ivory wand L - a wand of draining {zapped: 1} V - a wand of disintegration {zapped: 5} Comestibles d - a meat ration m - 3 apples r - 2 chunks of scorpion flesh C - 2 pears Scrolls j - a scroll of teleportation w - 2 scrolls of blinking G - a scroll of fear Jewellery e - an uncursed ring of protection from fire f - a +5 ring of evasion u - a cursed ring of magical power (right hand) y - an uncursed ring of teleport control A - an amulet of conservation (around neck) K - an uncursed amulet of resist mutation U - a +4 ring of strength (left hand) Potions g - 2 potions of invisibility i - 4 potions of heal wounds s - 3 potions of speed B - 3 potions of curing Books c - a book of Transfigurations Spells Type Level Stoneskin Transmutation/Earth 2 Polymorph Hexes/Transmutation 4 Ice Form Ice/Transmutation 4 Statue Form Transmutation/Earth 6 Dragon Form Transmutation 7 Miscellaneous l - a phial of floods Skills: + Level 7.7 Fighting - Level 10.0 Short Blades - Level 14.0 Long Blades - Level 17.4 Dodging - Level 9.0 Stealth - Level 1.0 Shields - Level 11.0 Spellcasting - Level 14.0 Conjurations - Level 2.1 Charms - Level 8.5 Air Magic You have one spell level left. You know the following spells: Your Spells Type Power Failure Level Hunger a - Searing Ray Conj ###### 1% 2 None b - Iskenderun's Battles Conj/Chrm #####... 2% 4 ##..... c - Orb of Destruction Conj ######.... 21% 7 ####### d - Freezing Cloud Conj/Ice/Air #####..... 58% 6 ######. f - Shock Conj/Air #### 1% 1 None g - Static Discharge Conj/Air ######.. 1% 3 None h - Lightning Bolt Conj/Air ######.... 1% 5 ####... r - Repel Missiles Chrm/Air ####...... 3% 2 None s - Swiftness Chrm/Air ####...... 3% 2 None v - Flight Chrm/Air ####...... 8% 3 None Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations Branches: Dungeon (13/27) Temple (1/1) D:7 Orc (4/4) D:7 Elf (0/3) Orc:4 Lair (8/8) D:12 Shoals (3/5) Lair:4 Spider (1/5) Lair:3 Slime (0/6) Lair:7 Altars: Ashenzari Cheibriados Elyvilon Fedhas Kikubaaqudgha Makhleb Nemelex Xobeh Okawaru Sif Muna Trog Vehumet Xom Yredelemnul Zin the Shining One Shops: D:6 } D:7 [ D:12 = Orc:2 * Orc:3 * Orc:4 **[[ Portals: Trove: D:11 (show slimy rune of Zot)

Tuesday, 12th November 2013, 13:50 by skyspire

If I were you, I'd go clear the main dungeon down to level 14 first. That should give you some more experience to boost spellcasting/conjuration/air skills, since that seems to be the direction you want to go in. If you get lightning bolt hungerless, i'm guessing you can spam that, combined with the battlesphere, should be able to take care of the sea snakes no problem. Also, you have rPoison now, so no reason to fear them. Also, you need Haste. If you have Haste I'd focus all into Charms to get it casting reliably. Haste is #1 priority .. if you need spell slots for it, you can dump shock and swiftness. Searing Ray is also pretty useless at this point.. your melee should be good enough to take care of that kind of popcorn.

Tuesday, 12th November 2013, 13:55 by Sar

skyspire wrote:dump swiftness

This is not something you ever want to do.
No need to be fixated on hungerless spells either.

Tuesday, 12th November 2013, 14:29 by Hurkyl

skyspire wrote:If I were you, I'd go clear the main dungeon down to level 14 first. That should give you some more experience to boost spellcasting/conjuration/air skills, since that seems to be the direction you want to go in.

I couldn't remember exactly which floor the lock was on, so I stopped at 13.

My analysis re spellcasting/conjuration/air is that the next milestone is being able to cast either Chain Lightning or Tornado (although, I might want to add "able to cast OOD in ring mail" before that), so it doesn't make much sense to train them until I'm ready to go all the way. (this conclusion may change if I decide I want to cast Freezing Cloud without training much Ice Magic)

I don't think I can get either top air spell ready in time for either branch end, and I think I have plenty of time to get them ready for Vaults:5 and Slime:6, so fighting is my priority at the moment. Also, I don't even have access to either spell at the moment: Vehumet is very likely to gift me at least one of them - his final gifts should come soon, I think -- but it's not actually guaranteed.

(aside: I wonder if training up Ice magic would improve my odds, by greatly reducing the odds that fire storm will be one of the gifts? Oh well, it's probably too late to take advantage of that)

Also, you need Haste. If you have Haste I'd focus all into Charms to get it casting reliably. Haste is #1 priority .. if you need spell slots for it, you can dump shock and swiftness. Searing Ray is also pretty useless at this point.. your melee should be good enough to take care of that kind of popcorn.

Haven't seen haste yet! I'm willing to train spellcasting for spell levels, though -- it will also help with failure rates and will take some of the bite out of OOD's hunger cost. I might eventually want to take off my ring of magical power, so MP helps too.

Searing Ray does actually have use still: each ray triggers a battlesphere blast while still being cheap mana-wise, and does a lot more damage on its own than Shock for that purpose, as well as being non-elemental. And I believe it is still my best medium range option against anything with low AC that I can afford to take my time killing.

Tuesday, 12th November 2013, 14:32 by skyspire

skyspire wrote:
dump swiftness

This is not something you ever want to do.

My bad, I didn't realize that swiftness stacks with haste for extra speed, so yes, keeping it is good.

Definitely get Freezing Cloud, imho. It makes easy work of Shoals 5, even if you don't train Ice much.. Freezing Cloud is awesome.

Regarding Vehumet, on his final tier he gives 3 spells at once. (he did for me, anyway..) The spell options he gave me where Fire Storm, Ice Storm and Chain Lightning. I don't know if it will be the same for you.

In clearing Shoals, I found Searing Ray to be ineffective there, even with it's damage power maxxed. Completely useless against snapping turtles. It's really designed to be a lower level spell.. once you are at mid-game it feels very underpowered. Also the wiki says that the "ray" still costs 1mp per turn. If that's true it is not so cheap mana-wise, either. 5 mp for 4 weak blasts (over 4 turns). In my build I have Fireball so I choose to spam it instead, since it also is 5mp and seems to do more damage in only 1 turn.

Tuesday, 12th November 2013, 14:40 by Hurkyl

I believe the mechanic is that he draws 3 spells from the list

Code:: Fire Storm, Ice Storm, Shatter, Crystal Spear, Tornado, Chain Lightning

For all of his gifts, having a lot of Air magic means the earth spells are very unlikely to be chosen, having a lot of ice magic makes fire spells very unlikely to be chosen, and so forth. So if I have 10 Air 10 Ice, it's very likely I'll get both of my top air spells.

Anecdotally, my first non-SpEn was a fire/earth blaster mage, and Vehumet offered Fire Storm/Shatter/Crystal Spear at the end. So I have at least one data point validating my belief!

Tuesday, 12th November 2013, 17:55 by Siegurt

skyspire wrote:
skyspire wrote:
dump swiftness

This is not something you ever want to do.

My bad, I didn't realize that swiftness stacks with haste for extra speed, so yes, keeping it is good.

Definitely get Freezing Cloud, imho. It makes easy work of Shoals 5, even if you don't train Ice much.. Freezing Cloud is awesome.

Regarding Vehumet, on his final tier he gives 3 spells at once. (he did for me, anyway..) The spell options he gave me where Fire Storm, Ice Storm and Chain Lightning. I don't know if it will be the same for you.

In clearing Shoals, I found Searing Ray to be ineffective there, even with it's damage power maxxed. Completely useless against snapping turtles. It's really designed to be a lower level spell.. once you are at mid-game it feels very underpowered. Also the wiki says that the "ray" still costs 1mp per turn. If that's true it is not so cheap mana-wise, either. 5 mp for 4 weak blasts (over 4 turns). In my build I have Fireball so I choose to spam it instead, since it also is 5mp and seems to do more damage in only 1 turn.

With battlesphere up, 1 maxed searing ray kills a snapping turtle about 7 times out of 10. One searing ray will nearly always do more (raw) damage than one fireball, even without battlesphere. With battlesphere, it's no contest; Searing ray wins hands down (but of course that uses more battlesphere charges, and hence more MP recasting it, but it's still more mana efficient then killing with fireball)

Fireballl is however *much* more time-efficent, and 100% better for things that don't approach in a straight line and stand still (like for example harpies)

Math:

Spoiler: show

Tuesday, 12th November 2013, 18:38 by Sandman25

snapping turtle has AC 16, it makes searing ray almost useless indeed (2d6 does not deal much damage), Fireball with 3d15.8 is much better.

Tuesday, 12th November 2013, 20:25 by Siegurt

Some emperical tests in wizmode,

Exact spellpowers for each spell are:
50 for searing ray
64 for battlesphere
75 for fireball

Skills/stats:
20 Int
15 conjuration, 15 charms, 25 fire magic

Casting battlesphere first, number of casts it takes to kill a snapping turtle:

Spoiler: show

the * were times when I had to recast battlesphere (after the second searing ray cast in each instance)

Average results per kill:

Code:: Casts Mana Rounds 3.7 22.5 3.7 2.1625 15.05 9

As we can see (And as was expected by me) Searing ray is better mana-wise, and worse rounds-wise, and yes, I did figure an extra round and 4 more mana for each recast of battlesphere, and each kill does include the initial 4 mana for the first battlesphere (But doesn't include a round for casting it, although if you'd prefer you can mentally add 1 to each result in the "rounds" column).

Also note it took a *LOT* of fire magic to get the spellpower up to 75 for fireball, these results actually seem like a slight overestimate from the typical in favor of fireball to me.

Tuesday, 12th November 2013, 21:05 by Sandman25

Thank you for the tests, Siegurt!
I think you have just proved initial point by Hurkyl - Searing Ray is useless as a way to kill snapping turtle because 9 rounds on average means the monster will kill the character. The most damaging Searing Ray is the last one (4th) and since Searing Ray has range 5 (with Vehumet) it means lots of kiting (you go to range 5, cast the spell, after 4 rounds you move away at range 5 and repeat, probably recasting Battlesphere) if you want to avoid damage (which is typical for a monster with 30 attack and reaching).

Tuesday, 12th November 2013, 21:23 by Siegurt

Actually I think I proved just the opposite, if you can survive 4 rounds, 9 rounds isn't an order of magnitude harder, it all depends on what your defenses and HP look like vs what your mp supply look like, and whether you are worried about noise (Which you should be) and how far the critter is when you engage it.

"It depends on the situation" isn't anything remotely resembling "It's useless"

Tuesday, 12th November 2013, 21:31 by Sandman25

Surviving 4 rounds is nothing special when you can hurt a monster 7 tiles away (5 for Fireball + Vehumet + 1 for AoE).
I tried Searing Ray vs Snapping Turtle too and had the same feelings - the spell is useless unless you have lots of room to maneuver and there are no other monsters around. It is very rarely true in Shoals especially since Snapping Turtle is faster than flying normal characters in water.
I guess we agree to disagree here

Wednesday, 13th November 2013, 00:36 by skyspire

Thanks for your analysis Siegurt, but I think you are forgetting steam damage.. I normally hit the turtles from a distance when they are in the water, creating steam, which boosts the damage. But yes, I guess if you don't care about killing up close and personal (and slowly) Searing Ray is not "useless", when combined with Battlesphere.

Wednesday, 13th November 2013, 02:55 by Hurkyl

Searing Ray+Battlesphere, I believe, is also a lot quieter than Fireball -- or in my case, Lightning Bolt. Other modifiers due to the fact I'm using Lightning Bolt rather than Fireball are:

Lightning Bolt can miss, Fireball cannot.
Lightning Bolt averages a little more damage per hit
Lightning Bolt has more variance in damage

I'm not sure if that last point is a blessing or a curse: low damage rolls opposite high AC rolls means enemy AC is wasted, which boosts the average actual damage done. However, high damage rolls opposite low HP enemies is overkill, which decreases the average actual damage done.

(in many non-Shoals situations, the fact Lightning Bolt can double zap would be important too)

However, Snapping Turtles do have rather high AC: using them as a test case greatly skews the comparison in favor of higher damage blasts... so the fact that Searing Ray+Battlesphere compares as well as it does is somewhat impressive. When the target is, say, a Hill Giant, or a group of weaker enemies that will march into the line of fire (but aren't arranged in a way that lets you blast them all at once), the comparison is much more favorable.

But really, the point isn't that I'm killing things with Searing Ray: it's that I'm killing things with Battlesphere, and Searing Ray is the most damaging cheap trigger for that. I'd be using it a lot more if I had Magic Dart as my lvl 1 nuke rather than Shock, since Shock's area of effect extends its shelf life quite a lot. I think I do have a spare book of conjurations, so I could afford to rip up that book if I needed those 2 spell slots, but as I mentioned, there isn't really anything to spend them on, and I eventually need more spellcasting anyways. (unmemorizing static discharge would be my first choice to unmemorize, since I still haven't really figured out if that spell is worthwhile)

Wednesday, 13th November 2013, 03:50 by skyspire

Also you can triple blast with lightning bolt and maybe quadruple blast if the angle is right. There is a guide on that somewhere. I only used fireball as an example since my DEcj is leaning that way. Lightning bolt makes more since for your build. I will learn fire bolt , when (if) I find it

Wednesday, 13th November 2013, 14:49 by Hurkyl

Don't have long to play today, but I poked a bit at Spider some more.

The second floor turned out to be surprisingly easy: I managed to play stealthy stabber throughout nearly the whole thing. The fourth floor made up for the difficulty by swarming me with a mix of spiders. I hit swiftness in a bid to retreat the 4 squares I needed to get back to the stairs, but more spiders kept appearing to block the path. I thought about drinking a potion of speed, but I don't believe I could have worked my way to the stairs. I wound up retreating to a corner where only two of them could get me, and set out on a protracted battle of attrition.

Aside: this is the sort of fight where battlesphere + Searing Ray + Vehumet really shines!

I did fire a couple Lighting Bolts to clear out the more dangerous foes, but that wound up running me out of mana. Happily, my long sword (and a little help from an orb spider) finished the job. All things done, I think I only needed a single potion of curing and a single potion of heal wounds to make it through.

It might have gone better if I had remembered I had the Phial of Floods. *grumpy*

I could have used a blink scroll to escape instead of grinding it out: I'm not sure if that would have been a better trade.

It strikes me that I should prepare a way to deal with ghost moths. I intend to use potion of invisibility or maybe cloak of darkness to clear the rune vault, but I really ought to be prepared in case I run into one outside the vault.

Can I outrun one with swiftness? I'm not too confident in my ability to win in melee. I have ring of teleport and ring of control teleport, so that gives me an option that doesn't use up my blink scrolls.

Wednesday, 13th November 2013, 14:55 by Sandman25

I think Ghost Moth spends 0.83 aut per move (10/12), Swiftness gives 0.8 aut per move so you can get extra tile in about 30 turns and thus I would not even try to run from the monster, especially keeping in mind energy randomization and Trap Spiders.
If your Evocations is still 0, don't count on rings of teleport/control.

Wednesday, 13th November 2013, 15:07 by Hurkyl

I was thinking more about retreating to the stairs if one enters LOS and I'm not ready, rather than trying to escape a battle that's going bad. It sounds like swiftness + potion of speed will get me away if I'm in melee and really need to, though.

Yah, my evocations are still 0. I'm still not used to control teleport ring being evoked now.

I also forgot to mention I forgot to try training up Ice to influence my final gifts... so I have Ice Storm, Fire Storm, and Tornado. No chain lightning!

Book of Annihilations is pretty much the only way to get it now, right? I had planned on acquiring a staff of air if I find another acquirement scroll... but maybe I should acquire books? How does that work? I would imagine it would be extremely erratic and unreliable....

Wednesday, 13th November 2013, 15:15 by Sandman25

Sorry, I have never acquired books. Ring of teleportation requires some Evocations too, you can see failure chance if you put it on.

Wednesday, 13th November 2013, 17:15 by rchandra

acquiring books is indeed erratic and unreliable. You tend to get at least one new spell, weighted on your skills, but there are a lot of spells so nothing is really guaranteed. I would still acquire staff (or wand), lightning bolt + tornado is still a fine suite of killing power. add Conjure Ball Lightning for added wackiness (only with rElec, such as from staff of air).

Wednesday, 13th November 2013, 18:02 by Siegurt

skyspire wrote:Also you can triple blast with lightning bolt and maybe quadruple blast if the angle is right. There is a guide on that somewhere

This is no longer possible, all hits after number 2 were disabled quite a while ago (In .11 I think? someone who cares can go look it up.)

Wednesday, 13th November 2013, 18:05 by Siegurt

Hurkyl wrote:I also forgot to mention I forgot to try training up Ice to influence my final gifts... so I have Ice Storm, Fire Storm, and Tornado. No chain lightning! Book of Annihilations is pretty much the only way to get it now, right?

Typing "?", "/", "S", "Chain Lightning" yields:

Code:: Chain lightning This spell releases a massive electrical discharge that arcs from target to target until it grounds out. It may ground out harmlessly if there are no targets sufficiently close to the caster, however. Type: Conjuration/Air Level: 8 This spell can be found in the following book: book of Annihilations

(?/ is awesome BTW)

It's also possible to find any spell in a randart spellbook, but that's also not highly likely.

Thursday, 14th November 2013, 02:18 by Hurkyl

rchandra wrote:acquiring books is indeed erratic and unreliable. You tend to get at least one new spell, weighted on your skills, but there are a lot of spells so nothing is really guaranteed. I would still acquire staff (or wand), lightning bolt + tornado is still a fine suite of killing power. add Conjure Ball Lightning for added wackiness (only with rElec, such as from staff of air).

I'm greedy.

Tornado is the more important of the two spells, but I would really like more chances to get a feel for Chain Lightning.

I suppose getting only one of the two spells is a blessing in a way, since I hadn't decided yet which I wanted to train for first. Tornado is probably the better choice, since it will mean a more powerful staff of air when I get it, as well as a stronger airstrike when I find that too. (my last tornado character got a lot of use out of airstrike to one-shot various low HP nasties like neqoxecs. I'm not sure yet how reliable Lightning Bolt would be for that purpose)

Training for Chain Lightning, however, would mean stronger OOD, and a more immediate boost to the power of clouds/lightning bolt.

I haven't tried Conjure Ball Lightning yet: everything I've ever heard anyone say on the subject is that it's fun but it sucks, and I haven't had a game where it was convenient to experiment with it.

Thursday, 14th November 2013, 16:28 by Hurkyl

Spider rune turned out not to be all that tough after all. I did run into a ghost moth outside the boss fight, but a short range OOD and a couple searing rays (+ battlesphere) clobbered it rather quickly.

I did wear the cloak of darkness for the rune vault. I didn't catch things quite as surprise as I had hoped: still, invis-stabs took care of the ghost moths and injured the emperor scorpions. I still took a fair amount of damage nonetheless: I was eventually forced out, although not until after I quaffed a potion of invisibility in a futile attempt to try and get more stabs on the emperor scorpions. (in retrospect, I probably should have killed the yellow and red wasps before going after the scorpions)

After retreating, I learned that the emperor scorpions really weren't that scary after all: I could tank one and blast it down from full HP with double-zap lightning bolts with very little trouble at all. I am now the proud owner of a gossamer rune of Zot.

I'm going to continue dungeon rather than clearing Shoals, so I've switched back to a robe. Spider was enough XP to get my skills where I want them (although a voice in the back of my mind is saying 15 fighting rather than 12... but I'll stick with 12 for now), and I've started the 100% Air training to get Tornado.

Spider offered a decent artifact glove: the +0 pair of gloves of Pnekog {rPois Str+2 Dam+2}. I think I much prefer Stlth++, though... and, of course, rElec is nice to have for the bit of extra flexibility in throwing around Lightning Bolts.

Code:: Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.13.0 (tiles) character file. Kelly the Spry (High Elf Air Elementalist) Turns: 39007, Time: 04:54:14 HP 108/108 AC 12 Str 12 XL: 16 Next: 60% MP 45/45 EV 32 Int 20 God: Vehumet [******] Gold 3022 SH 13 Dex 18 Spells: 10 memorised, 2 levels left Res.Fire : + . . See Invis. : + a - +7,+10 long sword "Mucrid" {freeze, +Fly MR++ SInv} Res.Cold : . . . Warding : . c - +2 orc robe {rF+} Life Prot.: . . . Conserve : + z - +1 dwarf buckler Res.Poison: . Res.Corr. : . I - +1 spiked helmet Res.Elec. : + Clarity : . x - +1 elf cloak Sust.Abil.: . . Spirit.Shd : . E - +0 pair of gloves "Smasopp" {rElec SInv Stlth++} Res.Mut. : . Stasis : . n - +2 pair of boots Res.Rott. : . Flight : . A - amulet of conservation Saprovore : . . . u - ring of magical power f - +5 ring of evasion @: extremely resistant to hostile enchantments, extremely stealthy A: no striking features a: Renounce Religion, Evoke Flight }: 1/15 runes: gossamer You are on level 1 of the Lair of Beasts. You worship Vehumet. Vehumet is exalted by your worship. You are not hungry. You have visited 6 branches of the dungeon, and seen 34 of its levels. You have also visited: Labyrinth and Bailey. You have collected 4812 gold pieces. You have spent 1810 gold pieces at shops. Inventory: Hand weapons a - the +7,+10 long sword "Mucrid" (weapon) {freeze, +Fly MR++ SInv} (You found it on level 1 of the Lair of Beasts) It has been specially enchanted to freeze those struck by it, causing extra injury to most foes and up to double damage against particularly susceptible opponents. It can also slow down cold-blooded creatures. It affects your resistance to hostile enchantments. It enhances your eyesight. It lets you fly. b - a +4,+4 elven dagger of electrocution (quivered) Armour c - a +2 orcish robe of fire resistance (worn) n - a +2 pair of boots (worn) x - a +1 elven cloak (worn) z - a +1 dwarven buckler (worn) E - the +0 pair of gloves "Smasopp" (worn) {rElec SInv Stlth++} (You bought it in a shop on level 4 of the Orcish Mines) It insulates you from electricity. It enhances your eyesight. It makes you much more stealthy. I - a +1 spiked helmet (worn) Magical devices h - a wand of lightning {zapped: 1} k - a wand of cold {zapped: 1} o - a wand of teleportation {zapped: 2} v - a wand of digging (6) L - a wand of draining {zapped: 1} O - a wand of fireball {zapped: 1} V - a wand of disintegration {zapped: 5} Comestibles d - a bread ration m - 4 apples t - a snozzcumber Scrolls j - 2 scrolls of teleportation w - 2 scrolls of blinking G - 2 scrolls of fear Jewellery e - an uncursed ring of protection from fire f - a +5 ring of evasion (left hand) u - a ring of magical power (right hand) y - an uncursed ring of teleport control A - an amulet of conservation (around neck) D - an uncursed ring of teleportation K - an uncursed amulet of resist mutation R - a +5 ring of dexterity Potions g - 2 potions of invisibility i - 3 potions of heal wounds s - 2 potions of speed B - 3 potions of curing Miscellaneous l - a phial of floods H - a sack of spiders Skills: - Level 12.0 Fighting - Level 10.0 Short Blades - Level 14.0 Long Blades - Level 17.4 Dodging - Level 9.0 Stealth - Level 5.0 Shields - Level 11.0 Spellcasting - Level 14.0 Conjurations - Level 2.1 Charms * Level 11.4 Air Magic You have 2 spell levels left. You know the following spells: Your Spells Type Power Failure Level Hunger a - Searing Ray Conj ###### 1% 2 None b - Iskenderun's Battles Conj/Chrm #####... 1% 4 ##..... c - Orb of Destruction Conj ######.... 6% 7 ####### d - Freezing Cloud Conj/Ice/Air #####..... 10% 6 ######. f - Shock Conj/Air #### 1% 1 None g - Static Discharge Conj/Air ######.. 1% 3 None h - Lightning Bolt Conj/Air ######.... 1% 5 ####... r - Repel Missiles Chrm/Air #####..... 1% 2 None s - Swiftness Chrm/Air #####..... 1% 2 None v - Flight Chrm/Air #####..... 1% 3 None Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations Branches: Dungeon (13/27) Temple (1/1) D:7 Orc (4/4) D:7 Elf (0/3) Orc:4 Lair (8/8) D:12 Shoals (3/5) Lair:4 Spider (5/5) Lair:3 Slime (0/6) Lair:7 Altars: Ashenzari Cheibriados Elyvilon Fedhas Kikubaaqudgha Makhleb Nemelex Xobeh Okawaru Sif Muna Trog Vehumet Xom Yredelemnul Zin the Shining One Shops: D:6 } D:7 [ D:12 = Orc:2 * Orc:3 * Orc:4 **[[ Portals: Trove: D:11 (show slimy rune of Zot)

Thursday, 14th November 2013, 17:31 by Hurkyl

Actually, I fibbed: I cleared Elf:1 and Elf:2 to see if I could find anything nice before delving into the dungeon. Alas, all of the elven bucklers were +0. I did find a +2 elven scale mail and a +1 elven ring mail, but neither were branded.

However, I did find a Staff of Air, so that's one big ticket item solved. A Stone of Tremors too. Maybe I'll figure out if I like it or not this game.

Thursday, 14th November 2013, 17:32 by Sandman25

Do you really care about enchantment level of buckler for a character with EV 32?

Thursday, 14th November 2013, 17:43 by BlackSheep

Every little bit helps

Thursday, 14th November 2013, 17:51 by Hurkyl

Sandman25 wrote:Do you really care about enchantment level of buckler for a character with EV 32?

No sense in replacing a +1 dwarven buckler with a +0 elven buckler, I think. I'm not even sure if a +1 elven buckler would be a good trade. Of course, I was really hoping to find a branded piece of armor, but no luck. I'm tempted to try Elf:3, since Freezing Cloud > elves, but it's probably too risky at this point in the game.

Thursday, 14th November 2013, 18:09 by BlackSheep

An elven buckler would weigh less.

Friday, 15th November 2013, 02:35 by Hurkyl

Hrm. Something I should have done on turn 0. What is the miscast rate on tornado in armor?

If I have 12 str and 20 int, and get spell casting up to 12 and armour up to 10, then the various combinations of body armor + air skill gives:

Robe/24 : 10% (dark red)
Robe/27 : 4% (yellow)
(MDA and elven ring mail are equivalent to robe)

Ring Mail/24: 12% (dark red)
Ring Mail/27: 6% (light red)

Elven Scale Mail/24: 10% (light red)
Elven Scale Mail/27: 4% (light red)

FDA/24: 56%
FDA/27: 22% (dark red)

If I put the rest of my stat increases into strength, so I have 16, the penalties for Ring Mail and Elven Scale Mail are eliminated. For dragon armor:

FDA/24: 36% (dark red)
FDA/27: 12% (dark red)

If I add in a ring of wizardry:

FDA/24: 16% (dark red)
FDA/27: 4% (light red)

So, if I want to play a tornado hybrid, it seems my choices are:

Light armour
Elven ring or scale mail
FDA (or similar) and permanently wear a ring of wizardry

But in all cases, Tornado can be made reliable. Although still with a light red failure rate in FDA....

(actually, if I get up to 20 armour skill, I can take the ring of wizardry off and get 4% miscast in FDA)

Friday, 15th November 2013, 02:48 by Sandman25

Don't care about miscast color, it has nothing to do with actual miscast. I learned it after getting some damage from a 1% (gray) miscast and later minmay confirmed it. Analyze possible miscasts for Air instead.

Friday, 15th November 2013, 02:53 by Hurkyl

Sandman25 wrote:Don't care about miscast color, it has nothing to do with actual miscast. I learned it after getting some damage from a 1% (gray) miscast and later minmay confirmed it. Analyze possible miscasts for Air instead.

Ugh, then why have the colors?!?!?! If the colors don't indicate the severity of the miscasts you can suffer, then I don't know of any way to actually determine that, other than sitting here and casting several hundred tornados in wizmode for every combination or trawling through the source code.

Friday, 15th November 2013, 03:07 by Sandman25

Crawl players don't need to know numbers, they should spend their energy on what actually matters.

At least this is what I hear mostly.

Friday, 15th November 2013, 03:11 by rchandra

well the colours indicate how worried you should be.

Friday, 15th November 2013, 03:24 by Siegurt

The colors indicate how *likely* a severe miscast is, rather than a maximum degree of miscast.

Friday, 15th November 2013, 03:48 by Hurkyl

Siegurt wrote:The colors indicate how *likely* a severe miscast is, rather than a maximum degree of miscast.

Likely as a proportion of all miscasts, or likely as a proportion of all casts? It must be the former, so the colors are somewhat misleading, I think.

On a related note, does Tornado always give a level 3 miscast when it severely miscasts, or can I get any of the effects?

Friday, 15th November 2013, 03:57 by Sandman25

Yes, you can get any miscast with any level spell. Though not exactly any, miscast level depends on difference between rolled dice and required value to cast the spell successfully so with low enough failure rate you can be protected from level 3, or level 2+3, or even level 1+2+3 miscasts.
If I am not mistaken.

Friday, 15th November 2013, 13:59 by Hurkyl

Bleh, I'm just going to ignore the colors entirely. I would like to be able to make an informed decision about miscasts, but that first requires being informed, and I am not optimistic about being able to achieve that state with an acceptable amount of effort.

Anyways, I'm making progress. Cleared down through D:19, and see the vaults entrance. I had forgotten that not having rPois was annoying in dungeon.

Alas, I've repeated a mistake I keep forgetting about: wild magic is a beneficial mutation. The potion of beneficial mutation seems nearly guaranteed to give me wild magic. *sigh* So... I retested a couple combinations, and it looks like I need to multiply all of my miscast rates by about 1.5. On the bright side... I'll eventually be able to cast some really powerful Tornados! Maybe I should go whole hog and pick up a robe of the arch magi while I'm at it.

Going back to elf is becoming even more tempting: there are a lot of things that I could find in the loot pile that would be useful: ring of wizardry, cold resist, poison resist, staff of energy, amulet of gourmand, just about any branded/artifact armor, book of annihilations....

Code:: Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.13.0 (tiles) character file. Kelly the Aerator (High Elf Air Elementalist) Turns: 50881, Time: 06:12:27 HP 120/120 AC 12 Str 13 XL: 18 Next: 11% MP 47/47 EV 32 Int 20 God: Vehumet [******] Gold 3559 SH 13 Dex 19 Spells: 10 memorised, 7 levels left Res.Fire : + . . See Invis. : + a - +7,+10 long sword "Mucrid" {freeze, +Fly MR++ SInv} Res.Cold : . . . Warding : . Y - +2 orc robe {rF+} Life Prot.: . . . Conserve : + z - +1 dwarf buckler Res.Poison: . Res.Corr. : . I - +1 spiked helmet Res.Elec. : + Clarity : . x - +1 elf cloak (curse) Sust.Abil.: . . Spirit.Shd : . E - +0 pair of gloves "Smasopp" {rElec SInv Stlth++} Res.Mut. : . Stasis : . n - +2 pair of boots Res.Rott. : . Flight : . A - amulet of conservation Saprovore : . . . u - ring of magical power f - +5 ring of evasion @: extremely resistant to hostile enchantments, extremely stealthy A: fangs 1, wild magic 1 a: Renounce Religion, Evoke Flight }: 1/15 runes: gossamer You are on level 19 of the Dungeon. You worship Vehumet. Vehumet is exalted by your worship. You are not hungry. You have visited 7 branches of the dungeon, and seen 42 of its levels. You have also visited: Labyrinth and Bailey. You have collected 5397 gold pieces. You have spent 1858 gold pieces at shops. Inventory: Hand weapons a - the +7,+10 long sword "Mucrid" (weapon) {freeze, +Fly MR++ SInv} (You found it on level 1 of the Lair of Beasts) It has been specially enchanted to freeze those struck by it, causing extra injury to most foes and up to double damage against particularly susceptible opponents. It can also slow down cold-blooded creatures. It affects your resistance to hostile enchantments. It enhances your eyesight. It lets you fly. b - a +4,+4 elven dagger of electrocution (quivered) Armour n - a +2 pair of boots (worn) x - a cursed +1 elven cloak (worn) z - a +1 dwarven buckler (worn) E - the +0 pair of gloves "Smasopp" (worn) {rElec SInv Stlth++} (You bought it in a shop on level 4 of the Orcish Mines) It insulates you from electricity. It enhances your eyesight. It makes you much more stealthy. I - a +1 spiked helmet (worn) Y - a +2 orcish robe of fire resistance (worn) Magical devices k - a wand of cold {zapped: 1} o - a wand of teleportation (4) v - a wand of digging (6) L - a wand of draining {zapped: 1} N - a wand of flame O - a wand of fireball {zapped: 1} V - a wand of disintegration {zapped: 5} Comestibles m - 3 apples q - 2 pears t - 5 bread rations M - a rotting chunk of orc flesh P - a meat ration Scrolls j - 4 scrolls of teleportation w - 3 scrolls of blinking C - 6 scrolls of identify F - 2 scrolls of remove curse G - 4 scrolls of fear R - a scroll of enchant armour T - 2 scrolls of holy word Jewellery e - an uncursed ring of protection from fire f - a +5 ring of evasion (left hand) r - an uncursed ring of sustain abilities u - a ring of magical power (right hand) y - a cursed ring of teleport control A - an amulet of conservation (around neck) D - an uncursed ring of teleportation K - an uncursed amulet of resist mutation Potions g - 2 potions of invisibility h - a potion of restore abilities i - 3 potions of heal wounds p - a potion of magic s - 3 potions of speed B - 5 potions of curing J - a potion of agility Magical staves c - an uncursed staff of air Q - a staff of cold Miscellaneous d - a stone of tremors l - a phial of floods H - a sack of spiders Skills: - Level 12.0 Fighting - Level 10.0 Short Blades - Level 14.0 Long Blades - Level 17.4 Dodging - Level 9.0 Stealth - Level 5.0 Shields - Level 12.6 Spellcasting - Level 14.0 Conjurations - Level 2.1 Charms * Level 18.2 Air Magic You have 7 spell levels left. You know the following spells: Your Spells Type Power Failure Level Hunger a - Searing Ray Conj ###### 1% 2 None b - Iskenderun's Battles Conj/Chrm ######.. 1% 4 None c - Orb of Destruction Conj #######... 9% 7 ####### d - Freezing Cloud Conj/Ice/Air ######.... 6% 6 #####.. f - Shock Conj/Air #### 1% 1 None g - Static Discharge Conj/Air #######. 1% 3 None h - Lightning Bolt Conj/Air #######... 1% 5 ###.... r - Repel Missiles Chrm/Air ######.... 1% 2 None s - Swiftness Chrm/Air ######.... 1% 2 None v - Flight Chrm/Air ######.... 1% 3 None Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations Branches: Dungeon (19/27) Temple (1/1) D:7 Orc (4/4) D:7 Elf (2/3) Orc:4 Lair (8/8) D:12 Shoals (3/5) Lair:4 Spider (5/5) Lair:3 Slime (0/6) Lair:7 Vaults (0/5) D:19 Altars: Ashenzari Cheibriados Elyvilon Fedhas Kikubaaqudgha Makhleb Nemelex Xobeh Okawaru Sif Muna Trog Vehumet Xom Yredelemnul Zin the Shining One Beogh Shops: D:6 } D:7 [ D:12 = D:15 ! D:16 % Orc:2 * Orc:3 * Orc:4 **[[ Portals: Trove: D:11 (show slimy rune of Zot) Annotations: D:1 Stuck loot D:7 exclusion: downstairs Elf:1 exclusion: deep elf demonologist, Rupert Innate Abilities, Weirdness & Mutations You have very sharp teeth. Your spells are a little harder to cast, but a little more powerful.

Friday, 15th November 2013, 15:00 by Hurkyl

Elf wasn't too bad, although I spent a lot of permafood.. Things got a little tight when the blade master came out, but I pulled through anyways.

I didn't hit any jackpots, but got a couple useful things:

a Book of Minor Magic -- Blink! (not from treasure vault)
a Book of Party Tricks -- Apportation and Summon Butterflies
a Staff of Wizardry
the ring "Mommu" {Wiz Hunger Str+1}
a ring of poison resistance

So I am a bit more comfortable about going on than I was before. I'm probably going to go back to Orc and pick up deflect missiles and a ring of protection from cold. (since I think I should prefer wearing the robe of rF+ rather than a robe of rC+. although... maybe I should be wearing a robe of MR instead)

Tornado is down to 50% failure rate. 22% if I wield the staff of wizardry. I should probably memorize it soon -- it looks like I'll have it at a reasonable state well before I reach Vaults:5, so things are looking good. It looks like it will still be quite a while before I can unwield my long sword (I need the MR++), so I haven't touched Staves skill yet.

Time to take another break.

Friday, 15th November 2013, 15:31 by tompliss

You are "extremely resistant to hostile enchantments". Without the MR++, how much do you have ?
I mean, you need this MR to try elf:3 because of its abnishments, but you don't really need more than "very resistant" for the 20-25 dungeon, or shoals, and it may not be useful in vault:1-4.
And doing those will at least give you some more MR by leveling

Friday, 15th November 2013, 15:38 by Sandman25

"Very resistant" is not good enough to protect from most monsters, even "extremely resistant" is not that good since it's just next stage and can be 1 MR point above "very resistant".
Late dungeon and Vaults can have many banishers and paralysers.

Friday, 15th November 2013, 16:41 by Hurkyl

Even with the sword, I don't have enough MR to be immune to mesmerization! Fortunately, it never came at a bad time. And I'm doing great damage with the sword anyways: I barely had to act like a caster at all!

Ilsuiw's band nearly got me twice. The first time wasn't so bad: I was just forced into a swift (and long) retreat back to the stairs. The second time, I caught her alone and did a mana dump to obliterate her... then got pushed off the stairs and seriously damaged by an aquamancer as I tried to retreat back to Shoals:4.

I hadn't realized that rC+ helps against them, until looking at wiki just now.

There were a few other situations more dangerous than I would have liked, but not life threatening.

The Shoals loot offers up some neat stuff. In addition to having access to Airstrike and a couple miscellaneous artifact jewelry, I now have

Code:: the amulet "Zuwed" {ward rElec rPois rF++ Stlth-}

That's a nice bunch of resistances there! The Stlth- partially counters the Stlth++ on my gloves, but I still have a net plus. Hopefully, I'll remember as the game goes on that I'm not wearing my amulet of conservation....

I'm going to have three sources of rElec when I swap in my staff of air. Wiki isn't clear if that is actually more helpful than just a single source.

Tornado is at 24%, 10% with wizardry. I'm going to memorize it next level. Hopefully I'll survive long enough to get to use it.

Code:: Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.13.0 (tiles) character file. Kelly the Anemomancer (High Elf Air Elementalist) Turns: 61314, Time: 07:37:42 HP 126/126 AC 15 Str 13 XL: 19 Next: 62% MP 40/40 EV 32 Int 20 God: Vehumet [******] Gold 4505 SH 13 Dex 19 Spells: 12 memorised, 8 levels left Res.Fire : + + . See Invis. : + a - +7,+10 long sword "Mucrid" {freeze, +Fly MR++ SInv} Res.Cold : + . . Warding : + m - +2 elf robe {rC+} Life Prot.: + . . Conserve : . z - +1 dwarf buckler Res.Poison: + Res.Corr. : . I - +1 spiked helmet Res.Elec. : + Clarity : . x - +1 elf cloak Sust.Abil.: . . Spirit.Shd : . E - +0 pair of gloves "Smasopp" {rElec SInv Stlth++} Res.Mut. : . Stasis : . n - +2 pair of boots Res.Rott. : . Flight : . V - amulet "Zauwed" {Ward rElec rPois rF++ Stlth-} Saprovore : . . . k - ring "Aloebow" {+Fly AC+3 Acc+4} f - +5 ring of evasion @: extremely resistant to hostile enchantments, extremely stealthy A: fangs 1, wild magic 1 a: Renounce Religion, Evoke Flight }: 2/15 runes: barnacled, gossamer You are on level 1 of the Lair of Beasts. You worship Vehumet. Vehumet is exalted by your worship. You are not hungry. You have visited 7 branches of the dungeon, and seen 46 of its levels. You have also visited: Labyrinth and Bailey. You have collected 6343 gold pieces. You have spent 1858 gold pieces at shops. Inventory: Hand weapons a - the +7,+10 long sword "Mucrid" (weapon) {freeze, +Fly MR++ SInv} (You found it on level 1 of the Lair of Beasts) It has been specially enchanted to freeze those struck by it, causing extra injury to most foes and up to double damage against particularly susceptible opponents. It can also slow down cold-blooded creatures. It affects your resistance to hostile enchantments. It enhances your eyesight. It lets you fly. Armour m - a +2 elven robe of cold resistance (worn) n - a +2 pair of boots (worn) x - a +1 elven cloak (worn) z - a +1 dwarven buckler (worn) E - the +0 pair of gloves "Smasopp" (worn) {rElec SInv Stlth++} (You bought it in a shop on level 4 of the Orcish Mines) It insulates you from electricity. It enhances your eyesight. It makes you much more stealthy. I - a +1 spiked helmet (worn) Magical devices b - a wand of draining o - a wand of teleportation (4) v - a wand of digging (6) C - a wand of disintegration O - a wand of cold {zapped: 3} Comestibles h - 3 rotting chunks of merfolk flesh t - a bread ration L - a honeycomb Scrolls j - 2 scrolls of teleportation w - 2 scrolls of blinking F - a scroll of fog G - 2 scrolls of fear Jewellery e - an uncursed ring of protection from fire f - a +5 ring of evasion (left hand) k - the ring "Aloebow" (right hand) {+Fly AC+3 Acc+4} (You found it on level 4 of the Shoals) [ring of protection] It affects your AC (+3). It affects your accuracy (+4). It lets you fly. u - an uncursed ring of magical power y - an uncursed ring of teleport control A - an uncursed amulet of conservation K - an uncursed amulet of resist mutation M - an uncursed ring of poison resistance S - the amulet of the King {rCorr Str+4 Dex+2} (You found it on level 5 of the Shoals) [amulet of resist corrosion] It affects your strength (+4). It affects your dexterity (+2). V - the amulet "Zauwed" (around neck) {Ward rElec rPois rF++ Stlth-} (You found it on level 5 of the Shoals) [amulet of warding] It greatly protects you from fire. It insulates you from electricity. It protects you from poison. It makes you much less stealthy. W - the ring "Mommu" {Wiz Hunger Str+1} (You found it on level 3 of the Elven Halls) [ring of wizardry] It affects your strength (+1). It speeds your metabolism. Potions g - 2 potions of invisibility i - 3 potions of heal wounds p - a potion of magic s - 2 potions of speed B - 3 potions of curing Magical staves c - an uncursed staff of air d - an uncursed staff of cold q - an uncursed staff of wizardry Miscellaneous l - a phial of floods H - a sack of spiders Q - a stone of tremors R - a stone of tremors X - a box of beasts Z - a phial of floods Skills: - Level 12.0 Fighting Level 10.0 Short Blades - Level 14.0 Long Blades - Level 17.4 Dodging - Level 9.0 Stealth - Level 5.0 Shields - Level 14.0 Spellcasting - Level 15.0 Conjurations - Level 2.1 Charms - Level 3.1 Translocations * Level 21.9 Air Magic You have 8 spell levels left. You know the following spells: Your Spells Type Power Failure Level Hunger a - Searing Ray Conj ###### 1% 2 None b - Iskenderun's Battles Conj/Chrm ######.. 1% 4 None c - Orb of Destruction Conj #######... 5% 7 ######. d - Freezing Cloud Conj/Ice/Air #######... 3% 6 #####.. f - Shock Conj/Air #### 1% 1 None g - Static Discharge Conj/Air #######. 1% 3 None h - Lightning Bolt Conj/Air #######... 1% 5 ###.... l - Apportation Tloc #####..... 4% 1 None q - Blink Tloc N/A 5% 2 None r - Repel Missiles Chrm/Air #######... 1% 2 None s - Swiftness Chrm/Air #######... 1% 2 None v - Flight Chrm/Air #######... 1% 3 None Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations Branches: Dungeon (20/27) Temple (1/1) D:7 Orc (4/4) D:7 Elf (3/3) Orc:4 Lair (8/8) D:12 Shoals (5/5) Lair:4 Spider (5/5) Lair:3 Slime (0/6) Lair:7 Vaults (0/5) D:19 Altars: Ashenzari Cheibriados Elyvilon Fedhas Kikubaaqudgha Makhleb Nemelex Xobeh Okawaru Sif Muna Trog Vehumet Xom Yredelemnul Zin the Shining One Beogh Shops: D:6 } D:7 [ D:12 = D:15 ! D:16 % Orc:2 * Orc:3 * Orc:4 **[[ Portals: Trove: D:11 (show slimy rune of Zot) Annotations: D:1 Stuck loot D:7 exclusion: downstairs Elf:1 exclusion: deep elf demonologist, Rupert Shoals:3 exclusion: oklob plant Innate Abilities, Weirdness & Mutations You have very sharp teeth. Your spells are a little harder to cast, but a little more powerful.