Ziggurat Zagger
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Detailed description for Fighting skill
Full Windows 64 bit version can be downloaded at https://www.dropbox.com/s/7ufdv1a2qbn6b ... 9.zip?dl=0
I play offline.
Although the central place for design discussion is ##crawl-dev on freenode, some may find it helpful to discuss requests and suggestions here first.
Ziggurat Zagger
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Ziggurat Zagger
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Ziggurat Zagger
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BlackSheep wrote:That shouldn't be possible unless you did so at level 1.
http://crawl.develz.org/info/inline.php?q=hp
(Felid HP aptitude is -4)
Ziggurat Zagger
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Sandman25 wrote:BlackSheep wrote:That shouldn't be possible unless you did so at level 1.
http://crawl.develz.org/info/inline.php?q=hp
(Felid HP aptitude is -4)
So for Fe it is (XL * Fighting / 8) * 0.6 and I suspect it is rounded down.
I cannot find exact data in my dump but I started training Fighting after getting a new level (to find out how much I would benefit from the skill) and didn't get any HP increase despite training Fighting to 7.5.
It happened at about XL 7 and I trained about 4 levels of Fighting (FeBe starts with Fighting 3.x AFAIK)
So it should be like 7 * 4 / 8 * 0.6 = 2.1. Perhaps I missed something.
I think it can be useful to see the info in game (especially for new players).
Ziggurat Zagger
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Siegurt wrote:I suppose if you also had 3 levels of the "low HP" mutation (-60% max hp) you'd have gained 2.1*.4 = 0.84 (less than 1) max hps...
Of course I also find it unlikely that you trained all 7.5 levels of Fighting at XL 7 without gaining a level (It seems like you'd have gained at least one level in there somewhere) making it hard to say for certain if the HP gain was part of the level gain, or part of the fighting training. (While unusual, it's quite possible for the HP bonus from skill gain and level gain to happen at the same time)
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Ziggurat Zagger
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Lafaros wrote:I think you are thinking too much on this. The Fighting skill in Crawl will give you HP if you train it - this is basically all you need to know about training it. If you want HP and maybe some damage/accuracy boosts, go train that skill. The exact amount of HP gain isn't really important to show to the player. Crawl goes out of the way to try to keep such unnecessary data from the player's view, because it is needlessly distracting oftentimes. I honestly have no clue how the formula works because I'm fairly lazy, but I still don't find it troubling to train Fighting when I feel squishy.
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Sandman25 wrote:Is it possible to have description for Fighting skill like "You get 3.25 HP for every Fighting skill level at your current XL".
Sandman25 wrote:I think it can be useful to see the info in game (especially for new players).
Sandman25 wrote:I noticed I gain almost(?) no HP from training it so I stopped training it at skill level 7.5.
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galehar wrote:Sandman25 wrote:I think it can be useful to see the info in game (especially for new players).
It would be especially useless to new players. The "no number policy" is to prevent new players from getting drown in useless numerical details and help them focus on what's important.
Sandman25 wrote:I noticed I gain almost(?) no HP from training it so I stopped training it at skill level 7.5.
And how do you figure that out? The HP boost occurs at fractional skill level and it is a multiplier, so it scales with your base HP.
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dpeg wrote:Hurkyl: Exactly, and that's a strong point of the game.
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Hurkyl wrote:You think that telling people that Fighting increases HP, then making them think all the EXP they spent on Fighting didn't give them any HP at all to be a good thing?
dpeg wrote:Hurkyl: Yes.
Everyone who has played Crawl for a bit knows how Fighting works, and it is easy to observe how your gain maxhp from levels, and from Fighting. Getting little additional maxhp early from Fighting is something your first Troll or Minotaur teaches you. I don't think that printing a formula will help any -- a Felid has few enough hit points that you'll already expect it.
I understand that some players want this information. I would be happy if these players understood that there is a reason for not giving this information within the game.
You can see it like this: it is no easier or harder to win the game wether you know the formula or not.
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dpeg wrote:Hurkyl: I apologise for not having answered a rhethorical and slightly polemical question correctly. Also, you managed to quote all of my reply bar the last sentence which, somehow, is relevant.
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BlackSheep wrote:Black box arguments aside, I was surprised to learn that the bonus HP from Fighting is impacted by the HP aptitude. The skill already works differently for the various species based on its own aptitude. Is it necessary for it to factor in HP aptitude too?
Snake Sneak
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Fighting is the basic skill used in hand-to-hand combat, and applies no
matter which weapon your character is wielding (if any). Fighting is also
the skill that determines the number of hit points your character gets as
they increase in levels (note that this is calculated so that you don't get
a long run advantage by starting out with a high Fighting skill).
Fighting is the basic skill used in hand-to-hand combat, and applies no
matter which weapon your character is wielding (if any). Fighting is also
the skill that determines the number of hit points your character gets as
they increase in levels. Note that this is calculated so that you don't get
a long run advantage by starting out with a high Fighting skill, and gives
more hit points to higher level characters.
Crypt Cleanser
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zugundertherug wrote:Fighting is also the skill that determines the number of hit points your character gets as
they increase in levels (note that this is calculated so that you don't get
a long run advantage by starting out with a high Fighting skill).
Barkeep
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Siegurt wrote:Actually it'd kinda be nice if you could see in the skill's description, what effect is Has/is having Something like:
Which seems like it'd be easier to code than trying to come up with an abstract of what it *would* do if you were to train it by one more point
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Hurkyl wrote:Then you have terrible ideas about game design.
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mikee wrote:Hurkyl wrote:Then you have terrible ideas about game design.
You say this while playing a game that he has spent like a decade being lead designer for. Do you like this game..?
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dpeg wrote:I understand that some players want this information. I would be happy if these players understood that there is a reason for not giving this information within the game.
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and into wrote:Hurkyl: The main reason to avoid formulas is that the design is intended for people to play the game without needing (or being encouraged) to keep a calculator tab open off to the side, running equations every time he levels up in order to see if he's really min-maxing with optimum efficiency.
Blades Runner
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XuaXua wrote:dpeg wrote:PROPOSED: Fighting skill increases your accuracy and damage in hand-to-hand combat, and also increases your maximum hit points, scaled by your species hit point aptitude and level.
Yuck, but there it is.
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BlackSheep wrote:Black box arguments aside, I was surprised to learn that the bonus HP from Fighting is impacted by the HP aptitude. The skill already works differently for the various species based on its own aptitude. Is it necessary for it to factor in HP aptitude too?
ackack wrote:Absolutely, otherwise it becomes hugely important for low HP races and relatively insignificant for high HP races, instead of being proportionally about the same.
Hurkyl wrote:And that's what the original thread was about: the OP had an unfun experience that is directly attributable to lack of information.
Hurkyl wrote:(and as an aside, if the formulas are made available anywhere at all, then in game is the best place to do so, because that makes it most convenient, easy-to-find, and guaranteed to be both present and up-to-date)
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Ziggurat Zagger
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galehar wrote:And how do you figure that out? The HP boost occurs at fractional skill level and it is a multiplier, so it scales with your base HP.
Ziggurat Zagger
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Wahaha wrote:Thanks for quoting this. This explains perfectly what fighting does. There's no vagueness whatsoever. It clearly says that the hp gained depends on the character's level. Why does this thread exist?
Ziggurat Zagger
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galehar wrote:The OP gained HP as he leveled up, but being unable to assess how much of it was from his fighting skill, he concluded that there wasn't any, despite what the in-game documentation tells. When a number is unknown, I usually don't assume it's zero.
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Sandman25 wrote:I took a look at my max hp (46) and started training Fighting (100%, no other skills training). When I got message about Fighting reaching level 7 (it was 7.5 actually, I killed something dangerous), I took another look at my max HP and noticed it is still 46 so I stopped training Figthing. But it looks like I missed something since it cannot happen theoretically.
Ziggurat Zagger
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Wark wrote:Can you post a dump? Because it seems like you're remembering something wrong and blaming the game for it. I've run a quick check in wizmode, and, assuming you don't train any fighting before (FeBe starts with 3.0) and then increase it to 7.5 without leveling up, you'll get the following results:
At xl 10 you'll have 42 hp, training Fighting will increase it to 46
At xl 11 you'll have 46 hp, training Fighting will increase it to 49
The effect, while small (bear in mind that it is the edge case of Felids and their horrible HP apt), is evident enough in my opinion, especially considering that HP bar is quite a noticeable element of the game interface.
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galehar wrote:Putting the information in the game is a message to the player that this information is important and that he has to use it properly to win the game. This is why we are careful about the amount of information we put in the game. Many other roguelikes (like Tome4) are not shy about putting walls of numbers on character, monster and item stats. I don't think this is useful nor good for gameplay..
To put it another way: If the formula does actually need to be seen, the formula is broken, not the display.
Blades Runner
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That it "increases your maximum hit points" is only useful to the metagame: it lets me know that if I want to increase my MHP, then training Fighting is a possible way to do so. But what is actually useful in game?
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Hurkyl wrote:and into wrote:To put it another way: If the formula does actually need to be seen, the formula is broken, not the display.
And I assert exactly the opposite -- if people find it useful to go through great lengths to research formulas and run up numbers to discover some fact, that's a pretty strong indicator that the display really should be presenting that fact directly.
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and into wrote:Hurkyl wrote:And I assert exactly the opposite -- if people find it useful to go through great lengths to research formulas and run up numbers to discover some fact, that's a pretty strong indicator that the display really should be presenting that fact directly.
In other words, this lack of perspective I'm talking about did not emerge because people LACKED information, on the contrary, it emerged because people sought out all the gory details and over-analyzed it.
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minmay wrote:are we just going to ignore that players also aren't told what the HP apt does
Hurkyl wrote:You completely miss the point.
You focus on the quantity of information. Yes, these people did have lots of gory details at hand. But what they did not have was the information that actually matters.
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galehar wrote:Let's not turn this thread into a generic "How much information should crawl provide on any subject". This won't go anywhere. The subject is about the fighting skill and how the multiplicative nature of the HP bonus is not obvious. I still think the best fix is to improve the skill description.
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Hurkyl wrote:galehar wrote:Let's not turn this thread into a generic "How much information should crawl provide on any subject". This won't go anywhere. The subject is about the fighting skill and how the multiplicative nature of the HP bonus is not obvious. I still think the best fix is to improve the skill description.
Actually, the subject was about the fact you can't easily see the effect fighting has on HP. That the multiplicative nature is not documented in the description of Fighting was a side issue discovered along the way.
Barkeep
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Hurkyl wrote:I've wasted several games trying to figure out if a switch to long blades would solve my Spriggan's troubles with tough undead creatures before deciding that crawl makes it impossible to learn this sort of thing through experience.
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galehar wrote:My point is that you don't need to see the exact effect fighting has on HP. The fact that it gives you +2 or +5 HP has no effect on any decision you make. Knowing that training it will increase your HP is enough. Knowing that the effect is multiplicative explains why it doesn't seem to do much at low XL.
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