God Options for Rogues, Archers and Warrior Mages


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Lair Larrikin

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Post Sunday, 1st September 2013, 09:26

God Options for Rogues, Archers and Warrior Mages

While Crawl has a pretty great selection of gods, there are a few character backgrounds that currently get the short end of the stick when it comes to making their choice. For hunters and arcane marksmen the only real choice of god is Okawaru, unless they want the deadly risk of running out of ammo. Stealthy characters have a similar problem; with no gods directly supporting stealth, their best bet is to also pick Okawaru and hope that he gives them some +stealth equipment. Warrior mages such as enchanters, arcane marksmen and skalds have to choose between either might or magic, with no real way to have divine support for both. Since I personally believe that all character backgrounds should have a choice of gods to directly supports their inherent traits and abilities, I would like to propose three new gods to cater to these classes. The included notes in italics attempt to explain the reasoning behind some of my decisions.

edit: the newest proposed version of these gods is available here. The following is my original suggestion.

Arilunu the Huntress
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Arilunu was designed as a viable alternative to Okawaru for ranged marksmen. Since animal enemies are kind of a big thing in this game and there currently aren't any gods covering that domain, I decided to go with a hunter theme. I was also trying to keep her powers general enough that non-ranged characters, particularly rogues might find her appealing.

Appreciates: slaying animals or magical beasts, sacrificing their corpses
Deprecates: animal corpses or chunks rotting (piety loss), harming neutral or allied animals (penance)

*0
grants a single gift of ammo upon joining; periodic gifts of non-branded ammo
While Okawaru takes a while to start giving gifts, Arilunu starts gifting small amounts of non-branded ammo right away. If the character joining is unskilled in any form of ranged combat she will gift throwing items.

*1
Hunter's Snare (piety)
You may turn a stack of ammunition at your feet into a deadly trap. At least 20 units of ammo must be provided for a dart, bolt or arrow trap. At least 1 must be provided for a net trap.
While traps being phased out of the dungeon is largely a positive thing, I think that using them against enemies as a player is a pretty neat feature that I wouldn't want to disappear. Besides which, there's already code and sprites in place, so this would be a good opportunity to recycle them into something else. The two changes would have to do with increasing the trap's damage and making it only target enemies. Branded ammo traps could also be a neat addition.

*3
Pacify Beast (food, piety)
Renders the target animal non-hostile. Higher levels of Invocation may make it friendly or allied instead. This ability can be used on the same target repeatedly in an attempt to increase its affection level.

*4
gifts branded ammo, gifts nets

*5
Active Camouflage (passive)
You are invisible until the first time you strike an enemy. The invisibility is renewed when there are no enemies visible.
For melee characters this is essentially a free stab, making the god an interesting pick for melee characters and especially for assassins. For ranged characters it gives an escape option since walking around a corner will renew their invisibility.

Arilunu alternatives: I was debating whether or not she should gift launchers and decided to take them out of the final version. Pacifying creatures could either be buffed to give xp for every conversion, similar to Elyvilon, or nerfed by giving a hard cap to the number of creatures you can have allied at once. It really depends on how strong the rest of her kit turns out to be.


Master Nuu
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A god made especially for both rogues and unarmed fighters. He would still be a great choice on any character who uses fast weapons and has a high dexterity score as Nuu's granted powers scale exclusively on attack speed and dex.

Appreciates: sacrifices of permafood
Deprecates: summoning, enslaving or otherwise acquiring allies (penance), deliberately drawing attention to yourself by making noise or wielding a -stealth artifact (penance)
Will not accept worship from anyone with less than 15 dex ("Master Nuu refuses to teach the clumsy!");

*0
Tumble (food, 10 turn cooldown)
Allows you to move two spaces in a given direction and briefly enchances evasion based on your dexterity. It's impossible to use this ability to move through walls, but it is possible to use it to move past your opponents.
Mostly designed for novice assassins who may not be able to close the gap to their target without waking it up. But it also serves the role of making nimble characters more mobile and evasive.

*2
Power of Speed (passive)
Every successive hit on the same target before its next action will deal bonus damage based on your dex score.
With daggers and unarmed strikes being the fastest hitting attacks in the game, this ability is intended to narrow this god's focus to the fast and accurate as opposed to the slow and powerful. The damage bonus will also be a welcome addition for short blade users who need all the damage buffs they can get.

*3
Tempered Body (passive)
After suffering the negative effects of a consumed potion at least 3 times, you acquire permanent resistance to it's particular effect. Only potions consumed after this power is gained will count towards the total.
At the moment bad potions are sort of like curse scrolls before Ashenzari was introduced. They're good for trolling you once, and then never having a meaningful role ever again. This skill is intended to make them have an actual purpose besides making taste-test identification of potions risky.

*5
Crippling Strike (passive)
Your attacks have a chance to slow your opponents or paralyze the ones that have already been slowed.

Nuu alternatives: I had a few other choices for a late level ability before deciding to go with crippling strike. One particular ability idea was to reduce movement delay for as long as you were hidden, which I suspect would have ended up being too powerful or too difficult to code.


Mogdeija the Battlemage
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Mogdeija's kit is aimed at improving the performance of mixed spellcasters such as skalds who currently suffer from not being able to do either of their two jobs well. Thinking of a way to improve them I came up with the idea for a god that emphasizes the use of armor by casters (inspired by Louise). Allowing mages to cast firestorm while wearing plate is not the intended goal here, but rather to give a higher success rate for level 1-6 spells to armored casters.

Appreciates: training magic skills while wearing armor. Piety gain is determined by the armor's spellcasting penalty.
Deprecates: using necromantic or transmutative spells or items (penance)

*0
Armored Casting (passive)
The penalty for casting spells while wearing armor or using shields is decreased by one full category.

*1
Spellmail (passive)
Your armor will absorb the brunt of your miscast magic. The majority of miscast effects are prevented altogether; some may apply a -1 to a single piece of your equipment instead.
One of the problems of casting spells as a mage knight is taking unnecessary damage and mutations from bad miscasts. Having your gloves go from +2 to +1 is typically better than losing 10% of your max hp from a mutation.

*2
Supercharge (glow)
Spell success rate greatly increases for your next turn. Repeated use of this ability can quickly contaminate you with magical energies.

*4
Meltdown (glow)
The enchantment level of a random non-artifact piece of armor is reduced by one in exchange for restoring a portion of your MP.

*5
gifts enchantment levels to randomly selected, non-artifact armor

Mogdeija alternatives: If Mog turns out to be a really good choice for conjurers (I doubt she'd be better than Vehumet), her rules could be changed to either ban conjuration or only grant piety as long as you are training both magic and combat skills at the same time. Supercharge can also be tweaked to have a slightly different effect like giving it a longer duration but increasing glow effect for every spell, or perhaps changing the magic contamination to a flat mp cost.



The purpose of this thread is not necessarily to push for the addition of these particular gods, but rather to brainstorm and discuss ideas for rogue, archer, and warrior-mage themed gods in general. So feel free to discuss my ideas, suggest your own, or just comment on the proposal; maybe I'm wrong and the current pantheon is enough to cover all the bases after all.
Last edited by Team Impy on Thursday, 5th September 2013, 02:59, edited 2 times in total.

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Klown, Styro

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Post Sunday, 1st September 2013, 10:55

Re: God Options for Rogues, Archers and Warrior Mages

In my opinion, these gods are too narrow (or more positively, too focused). I'll admit right away that I am biased because I had a hand in a number of gods added to the game. Whatever, I think that gods work best if they don't support a single playing style but rather when they have a unique theme which then happens to be applicable to several playing styles.

I'd also challenge that there are no gods supporting stealth or ranged combat. For the former, Ashenzari is great for a dedicated stabber -- but note how the god is universal and can augment very many playing styles. Actually, you get more out of the god if you're bound to train multiple skills at once, something that applies to skalds. And Fedhas was designed to be (also) a ranged combat god.

It is true that a number of classical Crawl gods are narrow (for example Trog, Vehumet, Okawaru) but others have a broad potential audience (Nemelex, Makhleb, Elyvilon). It's alright to have a god of berserkers; I don't think we want gods for every background.

dck

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Post Sunday, 1st September 2013, 12:07

Re: God Options for Rogues, Archers and Warrior Mages

A massive amount of characters who mainly kill things by shooting at them have been won by using gods other than oka and trog, and this god of archery of yours only the weird invis and gifting nets going for it.

The second one gives you the ability to outrun anything you want as long as it's the same speed as you as a zero piety ability, short blades are not weak (why does everyone think this) even without relevant brands and UC isn't particularly fast until you start reaching very high levels of skill. Also the whole thing about backtracking to grab bad pots and chug them to get permanent resist is horrible and will reward more tedious running around empty hallways. Unless the chance of slowing or paralyzing is ridiculously weak (in which case you can't count on it and is thus irrelevant) then it's really overpowered because sblades are going to instakill the enemy next hit and UC breaks everyone's noses in two hits anyway, but now they can't even fight back.

The last "battlemage" god locks you out of the second best school in the game and basically screws with your AC for really little gain. Sif gives you endless MP for investing in invo and no miscasts, Vehumet gives you offensive wizardry and MP on kills, this guy will early on screw with your AC massively and then start fixing it up by the time you're nearing the mid-game which is irrelevant because you're done with the most dangerous part of the game by then and you received zero help from your god when it really mattered. No, having to waste a turn to get one turn worth of wizardry isn't help.
Guys who kill things by hitting them and also cast either buffs or blasty spells do really fine in crawl as it is and there isn't much reason to create a god specifically for them.
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Snake Sneak

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Post Sunday, 1st September 2013, 13:22

Re: God Options for Rogues, Archers and Warrior Mages

Team Impy wrote:Stealthy characters have a similar problem; with no gods directly supporting stealth, their best bet is to also pick Okawaru and hope that he gives them some +stealth equipment.
Apart from all other useful stuff she does, Ashenzari gives you bonus to your stealth skill as long as you are using light armour, such as robes or leather armour.

Team Impy wrote:Warrior mages such as enchanters, arcane marksmen and skalds have to choose between either might or magic, with no real way to have divine support for both.
Yet again, with Ashenzari you can directly boost both your fighting and magical skills. There is also Kiku who provides you with a nice variety of spells and gives access to pain-branding your weapon, which makes the character quite a bit better at killing stuff in melee.
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Post Sunday, 1st September 2013, 13:35

Re: God Options for Rogues, Archers and Warrior Mages

Wark wrote:
Team Impy wrote:Warrior mages such as enchanters, arcane marksmen and skalds have to choose between either might or magic, with no real way to have divine support for both.
Yet again, with Ashenzari you can directly boost both your fighting and magical skills. There is also Kiku who provides you with a nice variety of spells and gives access to pain-branding your weapon, which makes the character quite a bit better at killing stuff in melee.

You seem to have forgotten about Cheibriados, who - if we look at the situation in 0.13 --
Makes it easy to wear heavier armor types (with a small increase in melee damage) (+15 str), provides a 1.5x spell power multiplier along with better cast rates (+15 int) and improves your EV quite some (+15 dex is a lot).

And unless I'm smoking something really bad, wouldn't "warrior mage" defined by "heavy armor", "melee is fine too" and "i can cast big spells too"?

Of course you lose out on haste, but damn if those bonuses aren't good for making hybrids.
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Abyss Ambulator

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Post Sunday, 1st September 2013, 14:50

Re: God Options for Rogues, Archers and Warrior Mages

I agree with Dpeg in that I feel these gods are too narrowly focused. "God of characters who sneak around and stab things with daggers using a specific set of spells" isn't terribly interesting and doesn't add anything for any other sort of character. Yes, we already have a number of simple gods that are straight upgrades, but these are all older gods and there's enough "straight upgrade" gods as is. Not to mention people see simple gods like Okawaru and think "this is the best/only viable melee god" when they really aren't.

Newer gods need to differentiate themselves more by doing things that change how you play the game. Such as Ashenzari's curse mini-game or Chei's slowness or pretty much everything about Jiyva. While the power of those gods are debatable (except Ash since everyone seems to agree he's strong), they're definitely interesting to play and they work with a wide variety of characters.
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Tomb Titivator

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Post Sunday, 1st September 2013, 15:18

Re: God Options for Rogues, Archers and Warrior Mages

On the other end of 'narrowness', a lot of Gods encourage certain skills. Instead of saying 'this God makes hunters better' it can also be seen as rounding out one dimensional characters.
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Post Sunday, 1st September 2013, 15:22

Re: God Options for Rogues, Archers and Warrior Mages

As dpeg and TwilightPhoenix have said, the fundamental problem with these gods is this:
Team Impy wrote:The purpose of this thread is not necessarily to push for the addition of these particular gods, but rather to brainstorm and discuss ideas for rogue, archer, and warrior-mage themed gods in general. So feel free to discuss my ideas, suggest your own, or just comment on the proposal; maybe I'm wrong and the current pantheon is enough to cover all the bases after all.
While more gods in the game would be wonderful, like the Gold God dpeg has been trying to get in the game for a while, "rogue, archer, and warrior-mage themed gods" are not desirable. While there are some narrow gods (Trog, Vehumet, Sif Muna) all of them were grandfathered in from before Stone Soup. More general and quirky gods like Jiyva, Fedhas, or Ash exist for these characters.

I do like some of these ideas for god abilities though. Reducing armor enchantment seems interesting, although I would put it as a cost for an active ability. I like Tumble, and Power of Speed is similar to that unnamed combat move that was going to be implemented for clubs (but appears to have died now). It's just the niche they're going for doesn't really improve the game.
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Lair Larrikin

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Post Sunday, 1st September 2013, 17:15

Re: God Options for Rogues, Archers and Warrior Mages

I was trying to stray away from narrow focus as much as possible for these designs, but seeing how much that term's been popping up I think I might have either failed or been misunderstood.

Arilunu's probably the least focused god of the bunch. The missile gifts can just be used exclusively with hunter's snare and never actually fired or thrown, while active camouflage and pacify beast are universally useful abilities. Nets are just a great item in general, especially when you can turn one into a guaranteed hit trap. Even as a mage I would still see the some sense in picking this god, as you can gain a whole bunch of backup escapes. Should you run out of mp, you will still have your charmed hydras, a no turn cost invisibility and a hallway full of traps.

Nuu is focused only to the extent of the worshiping character requiring a certain level of dexterity, which plenty of non-assassin, non-monk backgrounds are eligible for. He's definitely geared towards fighters, but I don't think that a slightly more robust fighter like a minotaur gladiator swordsman would find him to be a terrible option. Being able to get resistances to a decent chunk of debilitating status effects as a free mutation is pretty great on pretty much anyone.

Mogdeija's kit is applicable to a wide variety of character setups. Pretty much any mage background will find her useful as long as investing in armor seems like a good idea. While she's mainly intended as a prime choice for melee casters, conjurers and elementalist may find that sacrificing some of Vehumet's or Sif's power in exchange for being able to take a centaur arrow without folding over to be a worthwhile trade.

While the goal of designing these gods was definitely to give a prime option to some of the more neglected classes, I tried to stray away from putting anything too gimmicky or niche into their kits. If they're seemingly too weak or too strong compared to the other god options, keep in mind that I haven't specified any exact values for their abilities. Having your armor damaged by miscasts may not seem so bad if the chance of it happening is only 10%, and the ability to set traps may not seem so bad if the said traps can hit upwards of 30 damage. So don't focus too much on whether or not the gods are "good", but rather if their kit something you'd like to see available.

dck wrote:the whole thing about backtracking to grab bad pots and chug them to get permanent resist is horrible and will reward more tedious running around empty hallways.

I don't think it would be any more tedious than any of the currently existing god designs, I would actually argue that it would be definitely less tedious than a certain few of them. You are fairly likely to still have the potions on hand by the time you join a religion, and especially so if you want to join Nuu from the start. I would say that going back up for 4-7 levels and vacuuming up every item as Nemelex priest or every weapon as a Elyvilonian definitely one ups Nuu's potion mechanic. Lets not forget Jiyva with whom one has to not only backtrack from the middle of the lair, but also wait until your slimes clear the floor for you. As a player I've never actually found any of those 3 things particularly tedious and I don't think that anyone will be upset from having to collect a few potions for a permanent resistance mutation.
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Post Sunday, 1st September 2013, 18:40

Re: God Options for Rogues, Archers and Warrior Mages

Team Impy wrote:I would say that going back up for 4-7 levels and vacuuming up every item as Nemelex priest or every weapon as a Elyvilonian definitely one ups Nuu's potion mechanic. Lets not forget Jiyva with whom one has to not only backtrack from the middle of the lair, but also wait until your slimes clear the floor for you.
I also think these should be removed, rather than adding more things like them.

Team Impy wrote:I was trying to stray away from narrow focus as much as possible for these designs, but seeing how much that term's been popping up I think I might have either failed or been misunderstood.
The following gods have been added over the lifespan of Stone Soup: Lugonu, Beogh, Fedhas, Jiyva, Cheibriados, and Ashenzari. Do any of those scream out "I AM FOR X PLAYSTYLE" to you? Sure you might argue that Lugonu is better for melee or Fedhas for ranged, but they weren't designed to do that, and they don't have any powers that would be useless with other playstyles.

One more problem with these god's that nobody's mentioned: They don't really change how you play. Gods like Ely, Chei, Ash, Trog, Nemblex, etc. massively change the Crawl experience. Gods like Makhleb at least allow clever tricks like elliott heal. How do your gods change up how players act? Here's how I'd use them:

    Arilunu grants traps (too underpowered to use) save or die ability against beasts (which doesn't have much strategy in it, we already have banishment and healing) and Active Camouflage (this is neat, but not enough to make up for other flaws.)

    Master Nuu makes running easier (not bad, still a problem due to energy randomization and long cooldown, might be a bit scummy), random damage bonus for hitting the same enemy (ok), a bunch of resistances for scummy behavior (Tempered Body looks overpowered, by the way), and a chance to slow enemies (Tumble let's me run without this, would be overpowered or have too high variance to matter)

    Mogdeija let's me wear slightly heavier armor, has an effect which makes me never want to miscast ever (Spellmail's effect is far worse than a single hit of contaim.) Gives me one turn Brilliance in exchange for contaim. (makes me wonder if I can keep some spells at high failure and always use this before hand, seems neat) Let's me sacrifice enchantment AC scrolls for MP (decent juggling of strategic and tactical advantages) and randomly boosts said AC (boring).

    Now I'm going to look at Cheibraidos:

    Cheibraiodos gives me slow movement speed. This opens up an amazing amount of depth on its own. How does the value of translocations, stealth, invisibility, attack range, etc. change in response to this handicap? I'm forced to reevaluate how much these are worth. Chei has already made me think more than all your gods combined.

    The huge stat boosts also change how I play. I can wear big armour and get good dodging on species that normally wouldn't. Dex and Str give a big boost to melee, and Int to spellcasting. I don't want to do things unrelated to stats, like Evocations. Bend Time makes me think about how slowing so many enemies will effect the situation, and which fights it's best to use it in. Temporal Distortion has uses such as dissipating clouds, splitting slime creatures and letting enemy buffs expire. Slouch costs enough piety to make me think about when to use it, and also makes me reconsider which enemies I should watch out for - bee packs become easy problems, while normally I would find them difficult enemies. Step From Time tends to set up interesting situations, like being teleported - you're in a desperate situation and you get a refreshed area. Just don't use it if you're near a statue, or a monster's patrol point, etc.
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Lair Larrikin

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Post Sunday, 1st September 2013, 20:12

Re: God Options for Rogues, Archers and Warrior Mages

We've all got our opinions reaver, personally I mostly play the vanilla crawl gods, which tend to have strong central themes (ie: magic, combat, healing, antimage berserker, demon hunter etc). A lot of newer gods I just find too gimmicky, like Cheibraiodos or Fedhas whom I barely play at all. For the most part my designs were attempting to emulate what the older gods did; with strong focus on a specific skillset and a few abilities to broaden up their kit. If that's considered undesirable in the direction that crawl's heading, then yes they are poorly designed. I honestly think that having both types of gods in the game would be better. The somewhat more clear-cut ones that favor a particular background like Sif or Trog, and the gimmicky jacks-of-all-trades like Xom, Nemelex or Cheibraiodos.
Also please refer to what I said earlier in regards to not judging the powers based on their apparent strength as there are no numbers provided. If it helps, the way I envision it, I would say that 3 to 4 arrow traps (60-80 arrows) should be enough to kill or badly injure a 10 HD monster. Same thing for armor spell absorption, the actual chance of it causing damage will be at a value that makes the ability useful rather than determent.

Lair Larrikin

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Post Sunday, 1st September 2013, 22:53

Re: God Options for Rogues, Archers and Warrior Mages

a nice option for stealth characters is Yred, surprisingly... when he gifts a profane servitor the Umbra they grant is a decent stealth bonus. Other than that, I agree with OP.

By the way, I also love how people in this thread a pretending Chei is a good god... HAHA! It's an interesting design, but a terrible god that's good for nothing! Almost as bad as Jiyva and his annoying mutations that shuffle faster than they're even noticed.

This game has been going in a bad direction for quite sometime.

I suggest changing the "stone soup" part of the title... this is no longer a stone soup. change it to... draconian (and I dont mean the species) soup or something.

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Post Monday, 2nd September 2013, 02:20

Re: God Options for Rogues, Archers and Warrior Mages

The setting traps idea is kinda neat, though part of the problem with it is that traps do about half the damage to monsters that they do to players. For the traps to be any good, that would have to change. Setting your own traps would be a good use for the Traps skill, if it weren't in the process of being phased out.

What was the justification behind Mogdeija not liking Necromancy or Transmutations? I guess the Transmutations is probably because Transmuters tend to morph their armor into themselves, but I don't get the Necromancy restriction.

RNG_god wrote:By the way, I also love how people in this thread a pretending Chei is a good god... HAHA! It's an interesting design, but a terrible god that's good for nothing!


Hey, Cheibriados is pretty good. He can be pretty tricky at first while your piety is still building and before you get your Invocations and abilities online, but once you've got it going, you turn into a total wrecking ball because your stats are so high. Sure, you can't run away from things, but blink and teleport are almost as good. I had a Troll Warper of Cheibriados going for quite a while before I died in the Shoals (and that was more my fault for flying out over deep water than anything else).

We all have different preferences, but you don't have to completely dismiss anything you don't personally like.
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Halls Hopper

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Post Monday, 2nd September 2013, 02:34

Re: God Options for Rogues, Archers and Warrior Mages

It would be interesting to create an ability that could either poison your weapon with potions (short duration, effects could be like what evaporate used to do) or cause potions to apply a reverse effect (poison becomes regen, degenerate restores ability, curing becomes hurt/poison/confusion/nausia, etc).

A diety of swapping could be interesting. He could allow you to temporarily swap skill levels for some more varied play.
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Lair Larrikin

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Post Monday, 2nd September 2013, 03:56

Re: God Options for Rogues, Archers and Warrior Mages

Maynot wrote:It would be interesting to create an ability that could either poison your weapon with potions (short duration, effects could be like what evaporate used to do) or cause potions to apply a reverse effect (poison becomes regen, degenerate restores ability, curing becomes hurt/poison/confusion/nausia, etc).

A diety of swapping could be interesting. He could allow you to temporarily swap skill levels for some more varied play.

The poison weapon ability was actually in my first draft for the rogue god. It would apply the potion's effect and create a cloud at the targets location. But I really wanted to make the god viable for unarmed fighters, so I reworked it into the swift master at arms type of deal that I presented here. Your potion juggling idea is really neat though, I would love to see it implemented as either a god power, spell or item. Perhaps a catalyst potion that can be mixed with other elixirs to change their effect.

spudwalt wrote:What was the justification behind Mogdeija not liking Necromancy or Transmutations? I guess the Transmutations is probably because Transmuters tend to morph their armor into themselves, but I don't get the Necromancy restriction.

Your guess about Transmutation is right on the mark. Necromancy has a weaker thematic link and was mostly included on the grounds of balance as it's a highly diverse school that already receives some fantastic divine support. But since a lot of people seem to think that her kit is underpowered I think I'll remove that rule. One of the particular spells I was trying to ban was Necromutation which I thought was pure Necromancy, but since that's not the case either and just having a transmutation restriction bans Necromutation, I see all the more reason to make that change.
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Post Monday, 2nd September 2013, 04:44

Re: God Options for Rogues, Archers and Warrior Mages

RNG_god wrote:By the way, I also love how people in this thread a pretending Chei is a good god... HAHA! It's an interesting design, but a terrible god that's good for nothing!

He's good for making hybrids, good for melee fighters, good for casters, good for playing differently and good for scaring everyone off with no running away and no haste.

You're gonna have to have arguments stronger than "AHAHAHA YOU GUYS ARE ALL TERRIBLE HOHO THIS THING IS GOOD FOR NOTHING! HAHA".
RNG_god wrote:This game has been going in a bad direction for quite sometime.

It has been improving since I joined in the times of 0.10. Why has it been going to shit?
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Lair Larrikin

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Post Monday, 2nd September 2013, 07:33

Re: God Options for Rogues, Archers and Warrior Mages

It has been improving since I joined in the times of 0.10. Why has it been going to shit?


Ah.... 0.10... I think I found the problem.

You don't see the direction this game is going? It's going to devolve into a RL Simulator with everything they're removing. At the starting screen you choose your species and background then, the game calculates whether you won or not. It ends on morgue screen showing you your score and how you died (or not if you ascended).

PS: Chei is unanimously considered the worst god, only slightly better than Xom. Maybe you guys are too scared to voice opinions here for fear of the Almighty Devs, in their omnipotent wisdom, but over at the 4chan DCSS page, it's a whole nother ball park. People are starting to see a pattern with what the devs are doing and people aren't liking it.

And before anyone even has the audacity to mention all that has been recently added, dont even think about it. Gargoyles, Dijinni, Lava Orcs, and Dwants or Fomicids are probably the dumbest, most gimmick riddled crapfests I've ever had the displeasure of dealing with.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Monday, 2nd September 2013, 08:08

Re: God Options for Rogues, Archers and Warrior Mages

RNG_god wrote:
It has been improving since I joined in the times of 0.10. Why has it been going to shit?


Ah.... 0.10... I think I found the problem.

You don't see the direction this game is going? It's going to devolve into a RL Simulator with everything they're removing. At the starting screen you choose your species and background then, the game calculates whether you won or not. It ends on morgue screen showing you your score and how you died (or not if you ascended).

PS: Chei is unanimously considered the worst god, only slightly better than Xom. Maybe you guys are too scared to voice opinions here for fear of the Almighty Devs, in their omnipotent wisdom, but over at the 4chan DCSS page, it's a whole nother ball park. People are starting to see a pattern with what the devs are doing and people aren't liking it.

And before anyone even has the audacity to mention all that has been recently added, dont even think about it. Gargoyles, Dijinni, Lava Orcs, and Dwants or Fomicids are probably the dumbest, most gimmick riddled crapfests I've ever had the displeasure of dealing with.


You know, you obviously haven't *read* this forum if you think that people are "too scared" to voice their opinions. Also if you think the devs are "Almighty" you are obviously dumb, this is an open sourced project, if you don't like it, go write your own code and make the game how you'd like it to be. While you might *disagree* with the direction they've taken, that doesn't make you right.

When you throw around terms like "Universally considered the worst god" you speak for other people who *aren't you*; it just makes you look like an ass. When you claim that it's "audacious" to present evidence which might contradict you, you reveal yourself to be an over-inflated egotist.

If you have a specific complaint or suggestion to make, make it, preferably in a intelligent, well thought out, reasonable way. If you want to throw a temper tantrum like a two-year-old, don't expect anyone to treat you or anything you might say with any respect (Even if you have valid things to say, if you spout out half-formed poorly-worded insulting arguments, they'll simply be ignored).

Also it's rude to co-opt someone else's idea/feedback post to have your own personal little tirade against the direction of the game in general, if you'd like to start a discussion on that point please do so on your own dime.
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Post Monday, 2nd September 2013, 08:20

Re: God Options for Rogues, Archers and Warrior Mages

I'm about to forecast the impending closure of this thread and no, I don't care what RNG_god has to say about the game but I'd like to mention (once more) that power of gods is absolutely relative. There seems to be some sort of forum concensus that Ashenzari is (too?) strong and Cheibriados is weak. But! Ignoring the fact that such assessments depend on the character (you're going to get more mileage out of Ashenzari if you're about to use many skills; you're going to get no mileage out of Cheibriados if you don't plan to deal ranged damage in at least some form), some god has to be "approximately weakest/strongest". On top of that, the actual power is in the numbers: it would be easy to change Ashenzari's parameters (piety gain and skill boosts, say) such that the god becomes much weaker. It would also be easy to change Cheibriados' parameters (piety gain and Slouch piety cost, say) such that the god would be dominating the deity league.

Blades Runner

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Post Monday, 2nd September 2013, 08:28

Re: God Options for Rogues, Archers and Warrior Mages

@Seigurt: Don't feed the trolls, please - they don't keep adding more crap to the thread if they get no bites. Just the fact that he's citing 4chan as some kind of remotely reliable source should tip you off to the nature of this argument.
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Post Monday, 2nd September 2013, 15:40

Re: God Options for Rogues, Archers and Warrior Mages

RNG_god: Sorry you don't like the recent direction of the game. You're welcome to continue playing whatever version you think is the best (most of the existing servers only go back to 0.10 though), or to make a fork and restore whatever removed content you want. There are also instructions on setting up an online server, though probably at least the build scripts in dgamelaunch-config would need updated to refer to your repository instead of DCSS's.
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Post Monday, 2nd September 2013, 17:00

Re: God Options for Rogues, Archers and Warrior Mages

Hope you can help him make these less 'narrow' and get them in. They're pretty well thought out & the art is done/or at least prototpyed. All three fill gaps that aren't there currently. Just because a few backgrounds might enjoy these Gods more shouldn't be an issue. Most Gods in the game help certain backgrounds more than others.

I -always- run out of ammo as a Hunter before reaching my first rune, unless I play Okawaru. And even then you have to get high piety and he gives you 7 arrows of frost every couple dungeon levels. To take on 20+ monsters per level. Then a bunch of ice beasts & phantoms & undead show up and you're screwed unless you change your character into a fighter or mage, but you want to use the bow, that's why you chose hunter. Having this first God give you plain ammo frequently would be a huge help.

When I first started playing, I saw the Skald description and thought 'A Fighter who can use spells!' Ended up getting a medicore melee character with a bunch of average-at-best spells. The Battlemage God supports use of heavy armored mages, would be an amazing addition imo.
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Post Tuesday, 3rd September 2013, 01:22

Re: God Options for Rogues, Archers and Warrior Mages

Almost as bad as Jiyva

over at the 4chan DCSS page

oh, okay

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Lair Larrikin

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Post Tuesday, 3rd September 2013, 02:05

Re: God Options for Rogues, Archers and Warrior Mages

Can we please not critique the game in this thread, I wanted to keep in focused on discussing god options for underrepresented play-styles. It's not that discourse about game design is a bad thing, but we're just getting really off-track here.

dpeg wrote:I'm about to forecast the impending closure of this thread

I've worked on a number of free projects and have never seen a discussion thread closed before page 2. Is that normal here or have I done something wrong? :?
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Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Tuesday, 3rd September 2013, 02:51

Re: God Options for Rogues, Archers and Warrior Mages

Team Impy wrote:I've worked on a number of free projects and have never seen a discussion thread closed before page 2. Is that normal here or have I done something wrong? :?

Well, you know, sometimes the RNG decides to be evil and kills you before you even reach D:2.

Dungeon Master

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Post Tuesday, 3rd September 2013, 03:04

Re: God Options for Rogues, Archers and Warrior Mages

Team Impy wrote:I've worked on a number of free projects and have never seen a discussion thread closed before page 2. Is that normal here or have I done something wrong? :?


This board might be more heavily moderated than many, sure. Otherwise it ends up not producing useful discussion and this is a waste of everyone's time (including yours!)

It might be helpful to read the sticky thread: https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=7178

In particular note how it is better to focus on a single proposal rather than three separate ones as you've done here. This helps you develop that idea in a more structured way and keeps discussion relevant to a topic. Big posts with multiple proposals have a much greater tendency to drift off the point. The rules are here to promote good discussion.
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Tomb Titivator

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Post Tuesday, 3rd September 2013, 06:21

Re: God Options for Rogues, Archers and Warrior Mages

minmay wrote:
Klown wrote:When I first started playing, I saw the Skald description and thought 'A Fighter who can use spells!' Ended up getting a medicore melee character
well if you try playing fighter you'll find your impression was pretty accurate


Sorry, bad wording by me. Meant fighter mage as in heavy armor from the start.
Skald is more of a Gladiator imo. Same starting equipment. The trunk skald book is a step in the right direction, the battlemage God would be nice as well.
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Post Tuesday, 3rd September 2013, 07:06

Re: God Options for Rogues, Archers and Warrior Mages

There already is a battlemage god, he's just not advertised as one.
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Post Tuesday, 3rd September 2013, 09:16

Re: God Options for Rogues, Archers and Warrior Mages

Team Impy wrote:Can we please not critique the game in this thread, I wanted to keep in focused on discussing god options for underrepresented play-styles. It's not that discourse about game design is a bad thing, but we're just getting really off-track here.

dpeg wrote:I'm about to forecast the impending closure of this thread

I've worked on a number of free projects and have never seen a discussion thread closed before page 2. Is that normal here or have I done something wrong? :?

You didn't really do anything wrong. The thread was derailed by other people. But as mumra said, it's better to focus on one thing at a time. It's easier to read, and leaves less room for derailing.

Halls Hopper

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Post Tuesday, 3rd September 2013, 17:48

Re: God Options for Rogues, Archers and Warrior Mages

Trickster diety: Likes it when you use escape hatches and shafts(1st use only), gain skill in translocation, polymorph yourself (in combat) or other creatures, and supports the use of confusion, charm, paralyze, slow effects.

*..... You gain +1 EV bonus per level of piety. (+6 at max piety) Jump ability - cost hunger, move 2 spaces in any direction
**.... Skillful throw - cost hunger and 2 mp, you can throw any type of weapon effectively causing damage based on weapon, weapon skill, and throwing. Accuracy is affected by the weapon and throwing skills.
***... Wands,needles, and spells that confuse, charm, paralyze, slow, sicken or mutate are more effective.
****.. You can sometimes (10% chance) select what you get polymorphed into (proper spelling required or it is random)
*****. Skill swap - costs hunger, 5mp, piety, allows you to transfer skill exp from one skill to another for 6-12 turns. Has a breath cooldown.
****** Confound - costs hunger+, 5mp, piety, for 1-3 turns you swap locations with a random creature in sight whenever you are attacked. Then that creature takes the attack damage if it hits. Does not work against smiting or torment. Causes exhaustion.

This guy could be fun and interesting. Thoughts?
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Spider Stomper

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Post Tuesday, 3rd September 2013, 18:18

Re: God Options for Rogues, Archers and Warrior Mages

Mmm, I dunno about that skill swap effect; Ashenzari already does that. And for the polymorph control, you could just have a multiple choice interface like a scroll of acquirement.

The ability to switch places with monsters could be pretty neat, though maybe it should be limited to adjacent enemies. Still, it'd be fun to see a bunch of orcs all kill each other trying to hit you while you just sort of dance around through them.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 3rd September 2013, 18:57

Re: God Options for Rogues, Archers and Warrior Mages

Wouldn't want to swap places with a flying critter in the shoals over deep water though, that'd be a quick death.
Needles are already pretty damn powerful, bumping up their power level sounds.. a little crazy as a passive ability, perhaps an active ability with a cost?.
"Throw anything" sounds annoying, I don't want to carry around 5-10 non-stacking triple/great swords to lob at things, That's why I don't play tukima characters.
Check out the jump ability in this thread that's already being worked on:
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=8293&p=113041&hilit=dragoon#p113041

It might fit with what you're looking at there.
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Halls Hopper

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Post Wednesday, 4th September 2013, 04:59

Re: God Options for Rogues, Archers and Warrior Mages

Interesting observations. I guess skillful throw idea could be modified to make the target creature drink the thrown potion or read a thrown scroll (like immolation scroll).

I guess another idea for the *****. ability could be a -12 skill level to gain +12 evasion with the requirement of having at least one skill at 12. It could last as long as some other stat boosting skills or potions of agility.

***... ability could have needles removed since they are poison based. Although needles do become a bit useless in late game due to demons and golems. It is more for wands and spells to make them less resistable.

Polymorph choice interface? a) Animal (jackal, wolf, bat, elephant) b) Amphibious (frog, snake, python, hydra) c) Demonic (imps, devils, lemure, Pit Fiend, Angel) d) Elemental e) Golem (any type) f) Spider (any type) g) Plant (oklob, burning bush, treant) h) Random (with rare possibility of dragons, tormentor, death, orb of fire, phoenix). The () represent some possible results as examples. There could always be an abberant result like the odd out of place card in some decks.
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Post Wednesday, 4th September 2013, 17:12

Re: God Options for Rogues, Archers and Warrior Mages

I'm going to go out on a limb and say I actually rather like master Nuu. Some things are still unclear, and some definitely need to be changed: Saccing permafood can't be the only way to gain piety, especially since one of the races most likely to be using him would be spriggan, who can only eat permafood. I think it should remain an option, but not be the main way you gain piety. Maybe attacks that take less than 1 turn can have a chance to increase piety? It would have to be a fairly low chance, like 10-20%, since you will be making so many of them.

Power of speed is interesting, and it combines well with crippling strike. Slowing a monster means more time to get more power of speed damage bonus, and if they are fully paralysed, then you have even more time. This _does_ change your tactics because now you're encouraged to remain in combat against the same target and it encourages not fleeing. Fleeing being one of the strongest strategies in the game, this now forces you to give up bonuses if you want to do so. I'd probably recommend that the power of speed bonus be relatively flat, because haste is already powerful enough, we don't need the haste effect also doubling your speed damage bonus. You'll still get more of them, so keep it flat or slightly scaled with dex, but not final attack speed.

The thing that's unclear and probably problematic is temper body: When I first read it, I thought it would just be immunity to that potion: Ie, quaff 3 potions of poison, and future potions of poison have no effect. I realize now that would be silly since once they are identified there's no point, but granting rPois as an intrinsic is far too powerful. Confusion granting clarity is likewise powerful and stealing from Ash. Probably the worst though would be mutation, because you'd get 3 potions to try to roll good mutations, and if you got them, they'd be locked in permanently, and possibly still be able to remove them with cure mutation? It could I suppose grant mutation resistance 1 instead of 3, but even 1 is very strong.

So some other effect besides temper body, a second piety gain mechanic, and I think it'd be a fairly good speed god. There really isn't a god of fast things yet, and I think fast things are general enough. It might not be as versatile as something that is also good for casters, but melee and ranged combat could use Nuu well.

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Lair Larrikin

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Post Thursday, 5th September 2013, 02:47

Re: God Options for Rogues, Archers and Warrior Mages

Taking all of your feedback into consideration, I went back and reworked my gods accordingly. I've attempted to hit as many of the key points as possible, mainly in regards to broadening their portfolios and removing the more confusing aspects.

all additions and changes to the original text are written in orange


Arilunu the Astral Archer
altar_arilunu.png
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Arilunu's rework focuses on giving her powers to benefit other classes, emphasizing the use of ammo to fuel her other abilities. Traps and animal companions have been changed into something less fiddly. It should be noted that her new allies are immune to friendly fire, much like battlesheres.

Appreciates: winning fights without taking damage (having enemies swing at you for no damage is fine)

*0
grants a single gift of ammo upon joining; periodic gifts of non-branded ammo.
Ari's gifts will always correspond to your own ranged abilities, defaulting to arrows if you are untrained. She does not gift large rocks but does gift javelins.

*1
Star Spirit (3 mp)
Creates a temporary ranged companion. Star spirits move quickly and will attempt to keep a distance from your foes; if put into a highly unfavorable situation they will blink. Their own attacks consume the projectiles you currently have quivered and scale in damage based on your invocation skill. Star spirits have absolutely no secondary attack of their own. They are immune to all projectile spells and attacks which will pass directly through them, and have excellent resistances but low hp.


*2
Weightlessness (passive)
Your inventory items weigh nothing.
Mostly there to help ease the burden of carrying around ammo for her other abilities. Should also make her an appealing choice for weak casters.

*3
Pillar of the Moon (piety, 3 mp)
Creates an allied stone pillar at the target location. Power and hit points scale on your invocation skill. Approaching enemies may become confused or frightened. Generates cosmetic fog in its area of effect. Crumbles after roughly 30 turns.

*4
Pillar of the Stars (piety, 4 mp)
Creates an allied stone pillar at the target location. Power and hit points scale on your invocation skill. This pillar creates a zone of silence in its direct surroundings. Crumbles after roughly 30 turns.

*5
Pillar of the Sun (piety, 5 mp)
Creates an allied stone pillar at the target location. Power and hit point totals scale on your invocation skill. If there are enemies nearby, this pillar will generate clouds of flame and may blind them. Crumbles after roughly 30 turns.

*5
gifts branded ammo.


Master Nuu
altar_nuu.png
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Since Nuu recieved the most positive response of the bunch, I've mainly focused on tuning up his kit. Tempered body was changed completly since no one wanted its old effect.

Appreciates: sacrifices of permafood, defeating much larger opponents
based on tasonir's response, I've opened up an option for spriggans to gain piety without shooting themselves in the foot.
Deprecates: summoning, enslaving or otherwise acquiring allies (penance), deliberately drawing attention to yourself by making noise or wielding a -stealth artifact (penance)
Will not accept worship from anyone with less than 15 dex ("Master Nuu refuses to teach the clumsy!").

*0
Tumble (food)
Allows you to move two spaces in a given direction and briefly enhances evasion based on your dexterity. It's impossible to use this ability to move through walls, but it is possible to use it to move past your opponents.
Tumble is re-introduced with no cooldown this time making it as good for widening distances as it was at closing them. The food cost will have to be somewhere between 50-200 to prevent too much abuse.

*2
Power of Speed (passive)
Every successive hit on the same target will deal increasingly more damage based on your dex score.
The effect was changed from hits per round to hits total, both to make it easier to follow and also because that's the way most people seemed to interpret it the first time around. I think a good formula here might be something like (bonusDamagePercent = (dex / 2) *attackNumber) up to a cap of (dex * 5).

*3
Power of Endurance (passive)
Any damage from a single attack that exceeds 25% of your maximum hp is reduced by half.
Given the unanimously negative response to tempered body, I replaced it with an enterely different ability. The new effect is intended to further the theme of a fast, nimble fighter taking down slow, powerful behemoths.

*5
Crippling Strike (passive)
Your attacks have a chance to slow your opponents or paralyze the ones that have already been slowed.

Mogdeija the Mage Knight
altar_mogdeija.png
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The new kit emphasizes damage over defense, and removes enchantment juggling. The proposed changes should hopefully make for a more fun and less narrowly focused god.

Appreciates: training both physical and magic combat skills at the same time.
physical combat includes melee and ranged weapons, unarmed combat, shields and armor. Dodging and stealth do not count.
Deprecates: using transmutative spells or items (penance)

*0
Spellstrike (4 mp)
Allows you to store any targeted spell with a failure rate of 10% or less. Any subsequent non-magic attacks will apply the spell's effect to your opponent. This effect will not trigger on missed or blocked attacks and will drain double the spell's mp cost on every use. Hit success for the spell's primary target is not rolled separately; if the attack lands, the spell's damage will trigger. Secondary targets within the spell's area of effect roll to dodge normally. Spellstrike does not expire but can be switched to another spell or cancelled at any time. Running out of mp does not cancel Spellstrike, but it will prevent it from triggering. Spell success dropping below 90% (By switching to heavier armor for example) will cancel it.
While the double mp cost may seem harsh, do keep in mind that spellstrike has no associated hunger cost or chance of spell failure. Spellstrike can also trigger on unarmed or reach attacks, but will not trigger from projectiles.

*0
Spellbreak (free)
Cancells out of the current Spellstrike effect, refunds 4 mp.
Having the obvious use of preventing unnecessary casting, spellbreak also has a situational use for when you desperately need a few life-saving mp.

*1
Armored Casting (passive)
The penalty for casting spells while wearing armor or using shields is decreased by one full category.

*5
Charged Plating (passive)
Your mp will restore significantly faster while wearing heavy armor.
To put this into context wearing some of the heaviest armor may give you as much as 2-3 mp a turn. Medium armor such as scale or chain will give you around 1 a turn. This ability really opens up the types of character builds that may worship Mog. Wearing light armor allows you to use big spells but your mp runs out quickly, while going heavy will lock you into simple spells while granting infinite supplies of energy.


Here's the associated active ability icon:
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Post Thursday, 5th September 2013, 11:47

Re: God Options for Rogues, Archers and Warrior Mages

Love all three. Great work. :)
I'd definitely play these often if they ever got in.

Lair Larrikin

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Post Thursday, 5th September 2013, 14:21

Re: God Options for Rogues, Archers and Warrior Mages

That Mog MP regeneration sounds like it could be useful with every single Djiin character I've had so far. And they might actually get to cast something, too!

Which leads me to ask: am I supposed to be able to use Spellstrike while naked, then put on my GDA and large shield and still get to fire LGS when I hit things, or does putting armour on stop it? Because if that's the case, Gargoyle Earth Elementalist here I come!

Lair Larrikin

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Post Thursday, 5th September 2013, 16:04

Re: God Options for Rogues, Archers and Warrior Mages

5ubbak wrote:That Mog MP regeneration sounds like it could be useful with every single Djiin character I've had so far. And they might actually get to cast something, too!

Which leads me to ask: am I supposed to be able to use Spellstrike while naked, then put on my GDA and large shield and still get to fire LGS when I hit things, or does putting armour on stop it? Because if that's the case, Gargoyle Earth Elementalist here I come!


If anything forces your spell success rate to fall too low your spellstrike is dropped. So changing armor, losing int, or any other factors that influence spell success may cause it to fizzle. You should still be able to do well as a gargoyle earth elementalist, but you'll probably be wearing scale and applying on hit stone arrows instead. Earth isn't the greatest combo choice in my opinion due to the transmutation ban, hex users and other elemental schools should be able to do well though.

Mp regeneration values for djinns will probably have to be halved, but I suppose that that's something that will have to be experimented with. It's a double edged sword, since using spellstrike as a djinn can put you in a bad spot very quickly, but the bonus mp regen may cover some of your losses.

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