New L1 Tloc spell for Warpers


Although the central place for design discussion is ##crawl-dev on freenode, some may find it helpful to discuss requests and suggestions here first.

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Post Thursday, 27th June 2013, 14:35

New L1 Tloc spell for Warpers

In a recent thread, I asked how useful Apportation is for early Warpers, and the general consensus seems to be that it isn't:

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=8402

My takeaway is that while Apportation is a great utility spell later on, it's pretty useless early, other than for some very specific use cases (items on teleport traps, items in unsafe areas, etc).

So I'd like to propose a new L1 spell for Warpers. For lack of a better name, I'm calling it "Displace" for now. What it does is to blink you behind an enemy, making the enemy have distracted status, and giving you an opportunity for a distraction stab (tier 4 stabbing). It only works if you are standing right next to an enemy, and if there is space behind the enemy.

  Code:
    *
  @g*
    *

(The spots marked * are the allowable landing spots. At least one must be clear for it to work.)

I'm not sure how strong this spell is though. As I understand, tier 4 stabbing is pretty weak. Maybe it should be a straight +x damage bonus instead of using the stabbing mechanic? Would be easier to cap it that way too.

The spell could also serve an escape function - if stairs are on the other side of a opponent, for example. But the limited range should make it less useful than Blink.

Another thought is that this spell would be dangerous to use against multiple opponents. On the other hand, cleverly used this spell may have potential as a way to improve your tactical position.

Ideas, criticism, name suggestions, and just plain comments are welcome :D

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Post Thursday, 27th June 2013, 14:46

Re: New L1 Tloc spell for Warpers

Displace sounds potentially pretty useful, but mostly in infrequent situations.

How about Blink Other: irresistably blinks the target anywhere that is within one tile closer or two tiles further away from you.

I still think all the Blink translocations should have their blink range determined by spellpower.

EDIT:

Also: Flicker. Teleports you to an adjacent tile, takes no time to cast, and inflicted Exhausted status. Maybe too strong.

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Post Thursday, 27th June 2013, 14:47

Re: New L1 Tloc spell for Warpers

This has been proposed a number of times under different names, the most memorably (to me) being "scorpion teleport."

There is no way this is a level 1 spell.

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Post Thursday, 27th June 2013, 15:37

Re: New L1 Tloc spell for Warpers

yogaFLAME wrote:This has been proposed a number of times under different names, the most memorably (to me) being "scorpion teleport."

There is no way this is a level 1 spell.


Ok, that name made me look it up :o Here's the link:

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=4423

I think the key difference is that "scorpion teleport" works at range. The author even specifies that it is meant for melee guys to close on ranged guys. OTOH, my proposal requires an enemy to be at melee range.

So... it's semi controlled blink with a range of 2 (and you both start and end next to an enemy). It's meant to be a small melee buff + maybe a little tactical positioning. It's similar to the older idea but quite reduced in impact, I think.

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Post Thursday, 27th June 2013, 15:57

Re: New L1 Tloc spell for Warpers

HOW DARE YOU SUGGEST THAT APPORTATION ISN'T THE GREATEST SPELL EVER!!! - You will be getting a lot of this.

I actually think this is a good/the best implementation of this idea (which has been made a lot, so it must have some worth). This doesn't seem too overpowered if you give the chance of inflicting the status effect scale with power, and for the status effect to only work once on each creature. It also has a good amount of tactical use, if slightly limited applications.
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Post Thursday, 27th June 2013, 16:22

Re: New L1 Tloc spell for Warpers

I don't think anyone would suggest that apportation is super useful as an XL1 warper. Whether or not it's a good spell in general is a totally different issue.
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Post Thursday, 27th June 2013, 18:04

Re: New L1 Tloc spell for Warpers

Lasty wrote:Displace sounds potentially pretty useful, but mostly in infrequent situations.

How about Blink Other: irresistably blinks the target anywhere that is within one tile closer or two tiles further away from you.

I still think all the Blink translocations should have their blink range determined by spellpower.

EDIT:

Also: Flicker. Teleports you to an adjacent tile, takes no time to cast, and inflicted Exhausted status. Maybe too strong.


I forgot to reply to your post earlier. Blink Other sounds a lot closer to that Scorpion Teleport idea - really not what I have in mind. Ditto for Flicker.

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Post Thursday, 27th June 2013, 18:08

Re: New L1 Tloc spell for Warpers

Bim wrote:HOW DARE YOU SUGGEST THAT APPORTATION ISN'T THE GREATEST SPELL EVER!!! - You will be getting a lot of this.

I actually think this is a good/the best implementation of this idea (which has been made a lot, so it must have some worth). This doesn't seem too overpowered if you give the chance of inflicting the status effect scale with power, and for the status effect to only work once on each creature. It also has a good amount of tactical use, if slightly limited applications.


If anything, I thought it was underpowered. I think people go - oh it's controlled blink, but the severe restrictions on range and direction make it IMO play very differently from cBlink. It's just a melee buff with a TLoc theme.

I mean, I'm sure there's ways to abuse it that I haven't thought of, but that's what this board is for, isn't it?

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Post Thursday, 27th June 2013, 18:14

Re: New L1 Tloc spell for Warpers

What if the effect of the spell is simply to swap places with an enemy next to you (Xom style)? This cuts the range further, so it's almost useless as a poor man's cBlink. The main payoff would be the chance to inflict distracted status on the opponent, plus those infrequent occasions when it would be good tactically (bringing you closer to stairs or corridor, or away from mob).

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Post Thursday, 27th June 2013, 20:15

Re: New L1 Tloc spell for Warpers

DracheReborn wrote:
Lasty wrote:Displace sounds potentially pretty useful, but mostly in infrequent situations.

How about Blink Other: irresistably blinks the target anywhere that is within one tile closer or two tiles further away from you.

I still think all the Blink translocations should have their blink range determined by spellpower.

EDIT:

Also: Flicker. Teleports you to an adjacent tile, takes no time to cast, and inflicted Exhausted status. Maybe too strong.


I forgot to reply to your post earlier. Blink Other sounds a lot closer to that Scorpion Teleport idea - really not what I have in mind. Ditto for Flicker.


Just to clarify, Blink Other wouldn't let you pick where they go. Its main use would be to try to gain 1 tile of distance from a monster so you can escape. Flicker is a different way of achieving the same goal (and also in case it wasn't clear shouldn't be castable while exhausted, preventing spamming it).

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Post Thursday, 27th June 2013, 21:05

Re: New L1 Tloc spell for Warpers

Lasty wrote:Just to clarify, Blink Other wouldn't let you pick where they go. Its main use would be to try to gain 1 tile of distance from a monster so you can escape. Flicker is a different way of achieving the same goal (and also in case it wasn't clear shouldn't be castable while exhausted, preventing spamming it).


:oops:

I think I misunderstood the first time around. Blink Other sounds a bit like Force Lance, without the damage component. Flicker would make for a nice escape tool, and indeed is closer to my original idea. I prefer my own idea of course, but these aren't bad either.

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Post Friday, 28th June 2013, 00:00

Re: New L1 Tloc spell for Warpers

I read "Blink other" and "Blink other",
and all I can think of is:
dispersal
  • Spell: All monsters that are adjacent to you will be instantly teleported away if they don't resist (via magic resistance). If a monster does resist, it will be blinked instead (even if it's immune!). Does not work on -TELE enemies such as statues.
  • The ammo brand blinks enemies it hits if it does damage. This ignores MR but not -TELE.
  • <mikee_> even if it hits, which it won't, it has to do damage, which it won't, to blink it somewhere good, which it won't

not much else to add really..
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Post Friday, 28th June 2013, 09:15

Re: New L1 Tloc spell for Warpers

gofftc wrote:I read "Blink other" and "Blink other",
and all I can think of is:
dispersal
  • Spell: All monsters that are adjacent to you will be instantly teleported away if they don't resist (via magic resistance). If a monster does resist, it will be blinked instead (even if it's immune!). Does not work on -TELE enemies such as statues.
  • The ammo brand blinks enemies it hits if it does damage. This ignores MR but not -TELE.
  • <mikee_> even if it hits, which it won't, it has to do damage, which it won't, to blink it somewhere good, which it won't

not much else to add really..


Um, am I really so bad at explaining things? My idea is nothing like Blink other. It's more like extremely limited (in range and direction) self blink.

I still would like an explanation as why people think it's overpowered. If anything, I think it is underpowered, or maybe useful in limited situations is a better description.

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Post Friday, 28th June 2013, 10:30

Re: New L1 Tloc spell for Warpers

DracheReborn wrote:Um, am I really so bad at explaining things? My idea is nothing like Blink other. It's more like extremely limited (in range and direction) self blink.

And I still throw in dispersal
Do we really need another spell that does something very simmilar already implemented?

and

DracheReborn wrote:I still would like an explanation as why people think it's overpowered. If anything, I think it is underpowered, or maybe useful in limited situations is a better description.

Just at the top of my head: A L1 spell that let's you blinklike hop around in your FOV and stab enemies is not just overpowerd, it also gives you a lot of tactical options in the theme of 'Foe/Fight controll' in the size of 'I rearange my chesspieces new - one every turn one step at a time.
Imho, overpowered compared to dispersal (which is L5 or 6).

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@DracheReborn
You want to make make dispersal-ammo-like-hitting-yourself, what is actually not a bad idea (don't bother) + (semi)controlled directions as I understood.
This would be hart to make it happen in the game I could imagine
Of coure I just speak for myself with absolutely no wheight whtat goes in any given release.
This was just to say: I cant really see this in .1x
Not to trash some actually usefull idea, I would like it, and thats not a good sign
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Post Friday, 28th June 2013, 11:43

Re: New L1 Tloc spell for Warpers

gofftc wrote:Just at the top of my head: A L1 spell that let's you blinklike hop around in your FOV and stab enemies is not just overpowerd, it also gives you a lot of tactical options in the theme of 'Foe/Fight controll' in the size of 'I rearange my chesspieces new - one every turn one step at a time.
Imho, overpowered compared to dispersal (which is L5 or 6).


Is this the source of misunderstanding? Unlike self-dispersal (if I understand you correctly), this doesn't allow you to land anywhere, you're basically just dancing around an enemy. Same result can basically be achieved in 2 rounds with arrow keys:

  Code:

  @g


  Code:
   @
   g


  Code:

   g@


As to whether it duplicates existing mechanics too much, well I don't know. At some level, most TLoc mechanics would resemble each other to some extent. But there certainly seems to be a gap in useful low level TLoc spells, which this is attempting to fill.

I hope I'm not coming across as being too defensive, but it seems to me that the most critical comments are from people who haven't really taken the time to understand what I'm actually proposing. Maybe I really am just bad at explaining. Or maybe it's preconceived notions from previously proposed bad ideas. Look, I'm sorry, I can't do anything about past bad proposals, but I'd just like my idea evaluated on its own merits.

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Post Friday, 28th June 2013, 11:49

Re: New L1 Tloc spell for Warpers

I like the proposal, and I don't think it is overpowered. If at all, I'd say it's too weak -- as I understand it, you'd use DracheReborn's spell rarely, not frequently. Part of the weakness comes from the fact that you're given an enemy something of a free attack: it has to be in melee range and even if you can wait until the monster approaches you, spell failure means a free attack; and spell success does not guarantee no attack.

In short, I think it's a good idea because it gives the player a tactical ability.

Oh, I forgot to suggest that the spell might work best without targeting (a la blink), since there are only at most three possible target locations anyway.

DracheReborn: perhaps there'd be less confusion if you had named the spell "checkers-like jump" :)
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Post Friday, 28th June 2013, 12:48

Re: New L1 Tloc spell for Warpers

gofftc wrote:And I still throw in dispersal

The OP's proposal is completely different from dispersal.

Imho, overpowered compared to dispersal (which is L5 or 6).

And it's certainly much weaker.
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Post Friday, 28th June 2013, 12:59

Re: New L1 Tloc spell for Warpers

From the opening post:
DracheReborn wrote:...What it does is to blink you behind an enemy, making the enemy have distracted status, and giving you an opportunity for a distraction stab (tier 4 stabbing). It only works if you are standing right next to an enemy, and if there is space behind the enemy...


To make my point:
a.) In an optimum-like situation you 'blink' through any (mon_list) enemy (which is 2 tlies in, say 1.0 t) + inflicting distraction/confusion/whatever.
a.II.) its like, stab, spell, stab, spell, stab, stab, spell
b.) Who needs to say b.), if a.) is wrong - loosly translated this from Bertolt Brecht

the same that dpeg said:
I can see this more like a 'charge-through/behind/below/jump-over enemie - and make damage' both as escape and attack maybe, and should not be a spell, and also very costy.
And by very I mean very. (otherwise you just spam it troughout the dungeon). (Or let enemies hit you during this 'movement')
(Yes I thought about this, but look at a.))

Also I'm pretty sure this charge trough enemy thing would be anything than new.
Just recently I read about this - somewhere crawl related.

Oh, and and about opinions, they like a**holes, everyone got one.
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Post Friday, 28th June 2013, 13:32

Re: New L1 Tloc spell for Warpers

I didn't weigh in on the other thread referenced in the OP, but I think early Apportation is undervalued. The ability to collect things without having to walk over to them may seem weak, but it allows for very strategic positioning from the outset. The ability to stay in or close to optimal terrain is subtly strong.

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Post Friday, 28th June 2013, 15:52

Re: New L1 Tloc spell for Warpers

dpeg wrote:I like the proposal, and I don't think it is overpowered. If at all, I'd say it's too weak -- as I understand it, you'd use DracheReborn's spell rarely, not frequently. Part of the weakness comes from the fact that you're given an enemy something of a free attack: it has to be in melee range and even if you can wait until the monster approaches you, spell failure means a free attack; and spell success does not guarantee no attack.

In short, I think it's a good idea because it gives the player a tactical ability.

Oh, I forgot to suggest that the spell might work best without targeting (a la blink), since there are only at most three possible target locations anyway.

DracheReborn: perhaps there'd be less confusion if you had named the spell "checkers-like jump" :)


I didn't say so explicitly in the OP, but yes the idea is to land on one of the 3 random spots without targeting.

I did think it's rather weak. My idea is to have spell power scaling with the %time you can distract the enemy. However, I worry that even with distraction working 100%, the spell might still be too weak. Thoughts?

On naming: targeted blink and stab are all the wrong keywords, I'm afraid. Makes people think it's far stronger than it is.

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Post Friday, 28th June 2013, 15:56

Re: New L1 Tloc spell for Warpers

gofftc wrote:To make my point:
a.) In an optimum-like situation you 'blink' through any (mon_list) enemy (which is 2 tlies in, say 1.0 t) + inflicting distraction/confusion/whatever.
a.II.) its like, stab, spell, stab, spell, stab, stab, spell
b.) Who needs to say b.), if a.) is wrong - loosly translated this from Bertolt Brecht


It's exactly not "stab, spell, stab, spell, stab, stab, spell"

It's spell, (distract) stab, get hit by enemy, spell, (fail distract) normal hit, get hit by enemy, etc

It's pretty much like normal combat, except you get the weak distraction stab bonus (around 3-5% at low levels I think).

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Post Friday, 28th June 2013, 16:01

Re: New L1 Tloc spell for Warpers

BlackSheep wrote:I didn't weigh in on the other thread referenced in the OP, but I think early Apportation is undervalued. The ability to collect things without having to walk over to them may seem weak, but it allows for very strategic positioning from the outset. The ability to stay in or close to optimal terrain is subtly strong.


I'm genuinely curious. How would you use Apportation to help an early character survive?

From your description, it seems you'd pick up stuff from distance without going into, say dead end rooms, etc. Is that right?

I guess my counterpoint would be, wouldn't you get the same effect by NOT entering those dangerous areas to pick up stuff? There's still plenty of loot in fairly safe areas aren't there?

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Post Friday, 28th June 2013, 16:23

Re: New L1 Tloc spell for Warpers

Dead end rooms would be the least of your worries. Open areas, or areas exposed to multiple enemies would be the bigger issue. You would obviously not get the same effect by not entering those areas since with apportation you don't enter those areas but still get the loot. It's risk mitigation, but it's hard to use optimally.

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Post Friday, 28th June 2013, 16:47

Re: New L1 Tloc spell for Warpers

DracheReborn: Perhaps "Leapfrog", or "Surprise Hop"? (This is really hard for me, non-native speaker here.)

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Post Friday, 28th June 2013, 16:52

Re: New L1 Tloc spell for Warpers

Apportation in the early game is most useful in those "fractured" levels that provide a lot of cover but no clear rooms and no particularly predictable pattern of walls. You're exploring, you're close to "the dark", you are prepared to retreat&lure at the first sight of a threat; now you see a weapon-of-big-damage: You apport it, rather than walking straight to it, which would mean possibly alerting yet unseen enemies to your presence and being forced to retreat without it, which might lead to that weapon now being in the hands of a gnoll.

Also: You encountered Grinder/Sigmund/Pikel, but you stepped back while they were still sleeping/unaware. But you do want that object still in your line of sight before you go away.

The warper spellbook is fine as it is. The only thing to me is that there should be substitute for the removal of "control teleport".

If warpers are to be improved, I'd rather they'd get either a +2 weapon or more skillpoints in throwing.
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Post Saturday, 29th June 2013, 03:20

Re: New L1 Tloc spell for Warpers

So, more explicitly:

The reason this "is not a L1 spell" is because it scales (very well) into the late game. As designed, there is no reason I wouldn't want to open every single engagement for the rest of the game with this spell. In fact, it's the polar opposite of what you want out of a L1 spell: weak early, strong late. See: brand spells which were recently removed from the skald book. You want additive bonuses in the early game, not multiplicative.

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Post Saturday, 29th June 2013, 11:39

Re: New L1 Tloc spell for Warpers

yogaFLAME: I have trouble seeing how you arrive at that conclusion. The proposed spell could be arbitrarily strong (or weak), including a dependence on the monster (e.g. by HD). A very timid implementation would be as a random, severely restricted blink (have to be next to a monster) with a small chance to distract the monster; the chance depending on HD. I cannot see how you would start every fight with this; still, the spell would have some uses, especially early on. (When discussing things like this, it is important to keep in mind that nothing is fixed: you could get a free turn after the jump which makes it a high spell level candidate etc.)

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Post Saturday, 29th June 2013, 12:41

Re: New L1 Tloc spell for Warpers

If it needs to be weakened, you could also give a chance for the spell to leave you "facing the wrong way," thus distracting the player instead of the enemy. This could increase (get worse) with spell power, such that getting blink or phase shift online messes up this spell. Or make it worse with player level or dungeon depth, so there aren't weird incentives around training skills.

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Post Saturday, 29th June 2013, 13:08

Re: New L1 Tloc spell for Warpers

dpeg wrote: A very timid implementation would be as a random, severely restricted blink (have to be next to a monster) with a small chance to distract the monster; the chance depending on HD. I cannot see how you would start every fight with this; still, the spell would have some uses, especially early on.


So it's like pressing tab, but you move around and deduct an mp? It's safe to say I wouldn't start fights with that (or use it at all)

(the only reason I would use that is to get on the other side of a dude when I'm in a 1-wide hallway and I need to be on the other side for whatever reason. That's a rather narrow skill for a class that starts with blink)

(When discussing things like this, it is important to keep in mind that nothing is fixed: you could get a free turn after the jump which makes it a high spell level candidate etc.)


I mean, yes, in the infinite possibility space, it is likely that some of those possibilities are reasonable. I am specifically saying here that making the damage bonus come from a distraction stab is bad design for a L1 spell. As does any scenario where it replaces tab and gives me a migraine for the rest of the game.

The ability to blink to a dude and hit him is a cool concept that people keep trying to propose in one way or another (that guy's dragoon/felid thread with the "jump" ability is basically the same thing in an ability); making it L1 and range 1 is a pretty big waste of a fun idea in my mind.

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Post Saturday, 29th June 2013, 13:11

Re: New L1 Tloc spell for Warpers

The most plain variation where you simply jump (no distraction) has already more uses than just "escape from dead ends" because you can use a rat to escape from an ogre.

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Post Saturday, 29th June 2013, 13:25

Re: New L1 Tloc spell for Warpers

dpeg wrote:The most plain variation where you simply jump (no distraction) has already more uses than just "escape from dead ends" because you can use a rat to escape from an ogre.


finally, a skill that warpers never had access to

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Post Saturday, 29th June 2013, 13:32

Re: New L1 Tloc spell for Warpers

yogaFLAME: You realise that we're talking about a LEVEL ONE spell that helps Warpers to survive? Of course Blink will supersede the proposed spell later on, there is no problem with that.

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Post Saturday, 29th June 2013, 14:04

Re: New L1 Tloc spell for Warpers

I'd still rather have Apportation.

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Post Saturday, 29th June 2013, 19:16

Re: New L1 Tloc spell for Warpers

I'd still rather have more interesting spells in the game than less...if this spell wasn't even in the Warper book I'd be happy about it being added because it would create interesting scenarios when I do happen upon it.

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Post Saturday, 29th June 2013, 22:45

Re: New L1 Tloc spell for Warpers

@BlackSheep:
While apporation is all very well and good for yoinking the runes, it's not that useful at the start of the game. Like, at all.

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Post Sunday, 30th June 2013, 02:52

Re: New L1 Tloc spell for Warpers

dpeg wrote:The most plain variation where you simply jump (no distraction) has already more uses than just "escape from dead ends" because you can use a rat to escape from an ogre.

I'm not really sure why this needs to be explained, but those are not different uses. You've listed the same function twice, and only changed the material which the dead end is made of.

some12fat2move wrote:I'd still rather have more interesting spells in the game than less...if this spell wasn't even in the Warper book I'd be happy about it being added because it would create interesting scenarios when I do happen upon it.

The spell, as described in this thread, does not create interesting scenarios. It's also not really useful, unless you make it strong enough for me to spam it incessantly, at which point it becomes stupid.

khalil wrote:@BlackSheep:
While apporation is all very well and good for yoinking the runes, it's not that useful at the start of the game. Like, at all.

What is with the obsession with Apporting runes? Why does this ONE thing get vastly overrated by everyone, while literally every single other situation gets not merely underrated, but actually outright ignored? Autoexplore. The HUGE advantage Apportation grants is superior positioning during exploration. The use of autoexplore almost directly negates this advantage.

I don't know why this hasn't already been posted, since it badly needs to be posted both in this thread and the other one, but here goes:
Apportation is useful any time you see an item you want and aren't already standing on it.

I'd now like to point out two important differences between the early game and the late game:
1--At the beginning of the game, you haven't committed significant resources towards any particular character path, and also have a general lack of items. Additionally, monsters are weak enough that any advantage, even random throwing objects, can help you get through the first few levels alive. Therefore, a single randomly-selected item is more likely to be useful. Retrieving a couple pieces of ammunition is much more useful for an XL1 character than for an XL20 character, for example.
2--At the beginning of the game, you have far fewer escape options, less survivability, and virtually no back-up plans. Walking over to an item and ending up adjacent to a dangerous monster or unique is therefore significantly more dangerous at the beginning of the game.

The only thing to me is that there should be substitute for the removal of "control teleport".

It's called Passage of Golubria, and it's awesome.

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Post Sunday, 30th June 2013, 05:21

Re: New L1 Tloc spell for Warpers

I just walk to the items. It works fine. If I was an amputee apporation might be useful, but as is it's a waste of mana. Uniques and dangerous monsters walk around, and five squares off difference won't really help.

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Post Sunday, 30th June 2013, 10:27

Re: New L1 Tloc spell for Warpers

khalil wrote:...and five squares off difference won't really help.


...like pressing 'wait' five times in a row.

You can always do this during gameplay and it never kills you.
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Post Sunday, 30th June 2013, 11:31

Re: New L1 Tloc spell for Warpers

Volteccer_Jack wrote: [Explanation of the use of Apportation in the early game.]


Thank you, that's putting the matter it in very precise words.

I'd like to add that this focus on positional play is what makes warpers interesting.

I mean seriously: Already as an absolute noob, I've splatted warpers in the dozens -- surviving until you have blink and shroud online is hardly an issue. So, I don't understand what supposed to need fixing here. It's around temple/before Lair that things start to feel either a little tedious and/or dangerous, if I'm in the transition to other means of attack.

The only thing to me is that there should be substitute for the removal of "control teleport".

It's called Passage of Golubria, and it's awesome.


Yes, Passage is awesome. I didn't mean "Warpers need a new means of escape." I meant: The spellbook could use another goody to feel complete and balanced. "Phase Shift" would be another defence spell like Shroud, that's boring. Something like "Warp Weapon" could be nice, but I feel this could railroad warpers to a melee style, whereas I like the fact that they're play style agnostic. Perhaps a new spell?
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Post Monday, 1st July 2013, 18:54

Re: New L1 Tloc spell for Warpers

gofftc wrote:
khalil wrote:...and five squares off difference won't really help.


...like pressing 'wait' five times in a row.

You can always do this during gameplay and it never kills you.

I presume that's sarcasm, as doing that next to a hill giant is just asking for it.
The reason five squares of difference won't help is because most of the early game things I have trouble with are ranged threats. Being five squares away from sigmund is equally bad as one square away from sigmund.
Last edited by khalil on Monday, 1st July 2013, 18:58, edited 1 time in total.

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Post Monday, 1st July 2013, 18:57

Re: New L1 Tloc spell for Warpers

khalil wrote:Being five squares away from a orc priest is equally bad as one square away from an orc priest.

This is demonstrably untrue. Unless you're in a completely open level, it's far easier to break LOS with an orc priest at a distance of 5 than a distance of 1.

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Post Monday, 1st July 2013, 19:12

Re: New L1 Tloc spell for Warpers

BlackSheep wrote:
khalil wrote:Being five squares away from a orc priest is equally bad as one square away from an orc priest.

This is demonstrably untrue. Unless you're in a completely open level, it's far easier to break LOS with an orc priest at a distance of 5 than a distance of 1.

Even in an open level it's untrue--enemies do need to take time to cast spells, after all. Since los is at most 8 spaces, an orc priest 5 spaces away only gets 3 spells before falling out of los; one at distance 1 gets 7.
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Post Monday, 8th July 2013, 17:15

Re: New L1 Tloc spell for Warpers

Even with Sigmund (... edit?), it isn't true. His ranged attacks all require direct line of sight, which is a lot easier to break with five spaces than one. And he may waste a turn turning invisible (yes, it's wasted if your plan is to walk away) and his confuse may not hit and he may cast a conjure flame and then look! He's out of LOS. Walking away from Sigmund is much, much more likely to work if he's five squares away than one.

Positioning is very, very important in crawl. Even against early-game threats with dangerous ranged attacks. Especially against early-game threats with dangerous ranged attacks.
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Post Monday, 15th July 2013, 17:29

Re: New L1 Tloc spell for Warpers

njvack wrote:Even with Sigmund . . . he may cast a conjure flame


I think you mean Throw Flame, but wouldn't it be great to have a unique that does use Conjure Flame to pen in the player? Or maybe even just a regular monster. I know Ophans already do something like this, but they completely surround you in a single cast.
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Post Monday, 15th July 2013, 18:00

Re: New L1 Tloc spell for Warpers

As much as I like apportation (great spell) warpers could definitely use something capable of supporting a playstyle in the early game.

As it is, choosing to play a warper is extremely niche. I only ever use them if I'm frustrated by not finding translocation spells and am willing to suffer in the early game.
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Post Monday, 15th July 2013, 18:23

Re: New L1 Tloc spell for Warpers

minmay wrote:warpers don't suffer in the early game, they have darts, a really good book, and a scroll of blinking

the background is honestly overpowered


It's been awhile since I played a Warper (Mountain Dwarves were still a thing) so maybe they've improved.

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Post Monday, 15th July 2013, 21:50

Re: New L1 Tloc spell for Warpers

Timely bump, because I just coded a patch :)

Patch here if anyone interested to try it out:
https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=7341

I decided to go with the simpler version of the idea, that is, simply swapping places with an adjacent monster. I stayed with the name Displace, but Swap is probably more descriptive (Swap doesn't seem crawl-y enough though).

Since the monster is being affected, I thought it fair to give an MR check. With the low power cap though, this spell isn't going to be useful for very long (but maybe that's a good thing for a L1 spell).

In play-testing, the spell is kind of fun, but not really that effective as an offensive boost. It does add a bit of TLoc flavor to early battles though. Here's a snippet of a fight between my L3 HuWr and an adder:

  Code:
The adder bites you.
You swap places with the adder. The adder is momentarily stunned!
You reach to attack! You hit the adder.
The adder is lightly wounded.
The adder seems less confused.
You swap places with the adder. The adder is momentarily stunned!
You barely miss the adder.
The adder is lightly wounded.
The adder seems less confused. The adder bites you but does no damage. The adder bites you.
The adder easily resists. The adder closely misses you.
You swap places with the adder. The adder is momentarily stunned!
You reach to attack! You hit the adder.
The adder is heavily wounded.
The adder seems less confused.
The adder struggles to resist. The adder bites you.
You are poisoned.
The adder poisons you!


It's main use comes from tactical positioning - if you make a mistake and need to reposition away from a mob, for example. Also works as an escape spell, as you basically get a free turn after casting the spell so you can get that 1 tile separation easily.

I hope some of you give it a play test. Open to all opinions - even the critical ones :D

Also, it's interesting to read that so many people are fans of Apportation, even in the early game. My patch doesn't remove it FWIW, and really there's no reason why the Warper's starting book can't have 2 L1 spells. Something else can be removed, especially if the book is considered overpowered already.

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