Suggestion: slightly more enemy variety in lower dungeon

[FalconNL]

In my current run I started to notice a pattern on the lower dungeon floors (levels 20 through 27, more or less) and to a lesser extent in Vaults: the overabundance of yaktaur captains and stone giants. Now it could just be that the dice gods were feeling particularly unoriginal in my game, but it seemed like all I ever encountered there were stone giants and yaktaur packs/captains, punctuated by the occasional pack of deep trolls or ugly things in the dungeon and convokers/wardens/preservers in Vaults. This was a bit disappointing, since for the most part DCSS does a great job of varying up the enemies. There are literally hundreds of enemies to choose from, so why stick to about 4 or so for almost a quarter of the main dungeon?

For reference, here's everything I killed at least 50 times in my current game, filtering out stuff like fire vortices (fire storm), plants and imps (summon imp):

  Code:

256 orcs              (branch)
119 ugly things
 93 spriggans         (branch)
 87 yaktaurs
 73 nagas             (branch)
 67 orc warriors      (branch)
 66 stone giants
 62 yaks              (branch)
 61 deep trolls
 56 adders            (branch)
 52 yaktaur captains
 50 water moccasins   (branch)
 50 merfolk           (branch)
 50 green rats        (branch)

I annotated the ones that are primarily featured in branches. Adding up yaktaurs and yaktaur captains makes them the second most common enemy in the game, with ugly things and stone giants filling out the rest of the non-branch-specific top 3.

One obvious solution would be to conclude that with all the portals to Hell, Pan and the Abyss in the lower dungeon levels, some stuff is bound to come through. Adding some demons, starcursed masses and such would probably provide enough variation to break the monotony and might encourage a different strategy than "RMsl, attack" from time to time.
Alternatively, perhaps some solitary draconians.
Or of course new monsters entirely, but I reckon the issue can be solved just fine with the existing monsters without having to go through the effort of making new ones.

[Davion Fuxa]

I think it was mentioned that we wouldn't mind seeing some of the other Giant types rearing their heads now and then to make up for the abundance of Stone Giants. As for the idea that the lower levels might have some Demons and Abyss Denizens running around, this seems like a good idea. Running into an Executioner on level 21 would certainly be 'fun in the making'. We also sometimes see Tentacled Monstrosities and Bone Dragons running around near the end of the Main Dungeon, having the rest of the Zot Denizens popping out could be cool too.

[1010011010]

Part of the problem is also that yaktaurs, deep trolls and other late dungeon monsters are buffer versions of earlier monsters and are treated the same by the player. The biggest culprit being the yaktaur; late game they come in packs which can be roughly counted as the number of captains found. Centaurs can be found as early as D3 (although that might have been a vault) and then seen, a good amount, throughout the dungeon. This means that when yaktaurs enter the scene it's nothing new to the game, the differences between yaktaurs and centaurs are too small. Another point is that unlike other monsters that serve the same purpose but just later in the game, centaurs and yaktaurs have a significant overlap in territory.

As easy it is just to criticize, I will give a suggestion: decrease spawn rate of yaktaurs and also give them some intelligence, for example, yaktaurs do not switch to unarmed combat when face to face with a player or perhaps yaktaurs will learn to coordinate themselves.

[Sar]

The difference between centaurs and yaktaurs is that centaurs are faster than normal speed player and yaktaurs are not.

[FalconNL]

Let's look at the design space currently occupied by the "top 3":

  Code:

             Pack  Speed   Melee   Ranged  Special attributes
----------------------------------------------------------------
Ugly thing   Yes   Normal  Medium  No      Random resists/damage
Yaktaurs     Yes   Normal  Weak    Yes     No
Stone giant  No    Normal  Strong  Yes     No

And the resists being random isn't all that impactful either since for example red ugly things die just fine to fireball. Overall, not a whole lot of variation.

One idea is just had is to use/make some more monsters based on player species, such as:

  Code:

             Pack  Speed   Melee   Ranged  Special attributes
----------------------------------------------------------------
Deep dwarves Yes   Normal  Varies  Varies  Damage mirror, summons

Similar to the groups encountered in Ziggurats, but smaller in number. Damage mirror means you can't Fire Storm them to death quite as easily as you can others packs, and they have a mix of summons, spells and melee. Should at least prove to be more varied and interesting than a yaktaur pack. Plus, wouldn't it make sense to encounter deep dwarves deep in the dungeon, similar to deep trolls?

  Code:

             Pack  Speed   Melee   Ranged  Special attributes
----------------------------------------------------------------
Felid        No    High    Strong  No      Utility spells

A new monster. High speed, so you can't run away as easily as with the current top 3. High melee damage. Also uses utility spells from the Hexes and Translocations schools that Felids have such high aptitudes for:
- Blink other close
- Controlled blink
- Teleport other
- Slow
- Confuse
- Invisibility

With their speed and translocations they can very quickly get into melee range to start clawing you.

  Code:

             Pack  Speed   Melee   Ranged  Special attributes
----------------------------------------------------------------
Gargoyle     No    Slow    Strong  No      Surprise, high MR

Gargoyles would require a new dungeon floor layout that contains a ton of statues. A certain percentage of these would actually be gargoyles. As soon as you stand next to them, to reveal themselves (just like mimics). They aren't too difficult to run away from, but they hit like a truck and are very resistant to magic.

  Code:

             Pack  Speed   Melee   Ranged  Special attributes
----------------------------------------------------------------
Djinn        No    Medium  No      Yes     Immune to fire, powerful fire or air magic

Something to provide a challenge for fire storm users. Ideally they'd even be immune to the irresistable part of it, but that's optional. They wield powerful fire and/or air magic.

Anyway, just a few ideas I had that occupy some different parts of the design space. Perhaps one or two of them can be useful.

[Sar]

Ugly things are actually slightly faster than normal speed players too. Their most notable attribute, for me, is that brown ones corrode your equipment. I'm not sure if it's a good special attribute, but it can be noticeable.

[mumra]

As easy it is just to criticize, I will give a suggestion: decrease spawn rate of yaktaurs and also give them some intelligence, for example, yaktaurs do not switch to unarmed combat when face to face with a player or perhaps yaktaurs will learn to coordinate themselves.

An idea that was thrown around was to give yaktaurs more coordinated AI/tactics when they have a captain - flanking the player to block off retreats, that kind of thing. A "diffusion" AI algorithm was being worked on for this but nothing came of it yet.

And the resists being random isn't all that impactful either since for example red ugly things die just fine to fireball. Overall, not a whole lot of variation.

Resists alone can't make something interesting anyway. Ugly things are good when you first them, they have a unique mechanic; but yeah by the end of D they are generally just so much fodder. If variation is needed we need more ideas for new interesting mechanics, but currently a lot of these ideas and designing are going into branches.

Deep dwarves

Similar to the groups encountered in Ziggurats, but smaller in number. Damage mirror means you can't Fire Storm them to death quite as easily as you can others packs, and they have a mix of summons, spells and melee. Should at least prove to be more varied and interesting than a yaktaur pack. Plus, wouldn't it make sense to encounter deep dwarves deep in the dungeon, similar to deep trolls?

Currently the deep dwarf monster set has a number of design problems; otherwise the Dwarf branch might have been enabled by now, and this is why they basically only appear in Zigs. To have them as regular D spawns, even this deep, they need quite a bit of work. The non-healing is a big problem. Perhaps a subset of the monster set, which a few mechanical adjustments, could make nice occasional band spawns (they absolutely need some good strong healing support however).

Felid

A new monster. High speed, so you can't run away as easily as with the current top 3. High melee damage. Also uses utility spells from the Hexes and Translocations schools that Felids have such high aptitudes for:

Technically felids already exist but this turns them into a "proper" monster. However the spell set you've given them is really no different to many other things, and the player can be expected to have very good MR as well as SInv at this point so most of those effects won't actually do anything.

I think someone somewhere did mention the idea of a felid unique that keeps respawning on the same level after you kill it, this would at least be something slightly new (but we already have Boris).

Gargoyle

Gargoyles would require a new dungeon floor layout that contains a ton of statues. A certain percentage of these would actually be gargoyles. As soon as you stand next to them, to reveal themselves (just like mimics). They aren't too difficult to run away from, but they hit like a truck and are very resistant to magic.

I do like the theme of gargoyles that disguise as statues or even blend into walls. However it's really difficult to make this work, especially if the player has to stand next to them. You could just trivially avoid all the statues on that level. It would certainly be cool to make gargoyles more interesting but they at least need to be fast(er than they currently are).

Djinn

Something to provide a challenge for fire storm users. Ideally they'd even be immune to the irresistable part of it, but that's optional. They wield powerful fire and/or air magic.

Like souped up efreets? Hellfire immunity is out of the question, since even the toughest things in extended aren't immune to it. Again, resists aren't the way to make things interesting at the point when a player has fire storm (I mean, they have basically won the game at that point anyway).

Your basic ideas are good in that more variety could improve these sections of the game, but the thing to think about when coming up with designs is how monsters interact with each other. Look at the new Vault monsters in 0.12 and also the new content showing up in trunk; we have lots of new mechanics where thought has gone into synergies between monsters, and how they interact with playstyles. And not every character in late D has fire storm or some other high-level conjuration, this is actually a minority of games; and there are many playstyles it seems like you're overlooking.

[FalconNL]

I do like the theme of gargoyles that disguise as statues or even blend into walls. However it's really difficult to make this work, especially if the player has to stand next to them. You could just trivially avoid all the statues on that level. It would certainly be cool to make gargoyles more interesting but they at least need to be fast(er than they currently are).

Like I said, it would require a special level generator to make them work. For example, think of the basic "grid of rectangular rooms connected by hallways" generator found in the upper dungeons. Now make every hallway 3 tiles wide and line the walls with statues. This makes it impossible to get to other rooms without walking next to statues. This is not a particularly interesting layout and more interesting ones should of course be used, but preventing players from avoiding the statues is fairly trivial.

Your basic ideas are good in that more variety could improve these sections of the game, but the thing to think about when coming up with designs is how monsters interact with each other. Look at the new Vault monsters in 0.12 and also the new content showing up in trunk; we have lots of new mechanics where thought has gone into synergies between monsters, and how they interact with playstyles.

Obviously. My suggestions on this topic so far have been nothing more than idea generation and a starting off point for discussion, and should by no means be seen as a final set of changes that should be coded up and put in trunk.

And not every character in late D has fire storm or some other high-level conjuration, this is actually a minority of games; and there are many playstyles it seems like you're overlooking.

Naturally. I was merely presenting my observations from my current run. Any actual solution will have to be balanced and judged by people who have more experience than I do at getting non-fire storm builds to this point.

[FalconNL]

And another monster idea for good measure, shamelessly stolen from NetHack:

Nymph. Has no attack and fairly few hitpoints but high evade, and the following AI:
- If the nymph has noticed the player and isn't adjacent, blink adjacent to the player.
- If adjacent to the player and not carrying an item, steal an armour or jewellery item (can't just be a random item since nobody will care about, say, a potion of curing being stolen)
- If carrying an item and adjacent to a player, invoke a teleport. This gives the player about 2 or three turns to kill the nymph before they have to search the level for the nymph.
- If carrying an item and not adjacent to a player, engage normal fleeing behaviour.

This gives the player a little more reaction time than NetHack, where they teleport away the very next turn after stealing.

If this is considered to be too much like NetHack, they could be reflavoured to thieves.

[dpeg]

Stealing items aggravates players to no end. I don't think a generic thief monster will make it into Crawl -- note that we have Maurice for our stealing needs.

The discussion about new monsters is welcome, no matter what. There have been so many good ideas going into Vault, Crypt, Forest and the Abyss lately, that I am sure Dungeon will look much better, given a few versions.

[galehar]

And another monster idea for good measure, shamelessly stolen from NetHack:

Nymph.

New water monster for Forest: Water Nymphs

[Lasty]

If something like the FalconXL Felid monster gets added, I'd rather see it called a "leonid" and be a larger monster, in order to justify why its has powerful melee. Perhaps it could also have a more notable spellset, including powerful charms (phase shift, Ozo's armour, self-haste).

[Tiber]

Since dpeg invited ideas, here are some very rough ideas:

Evolving beast: Based on an old doppelganger discussion, this creature is so tuned to magic that when it is hit with a spell or wand, it learns that spell. In the case of elemental attacks, it gains resistance to it, but weakness to its opposite (if any). It also gains MR when hexed. Anti-magic takes away these resistances and copied spells. Zin hates it.
Shifting stalker: this beast has 3 forms - a fast moving form (possibly batty), a form with powerful melee and defense, and a slow form with a ranged attack. Every time it takes damage it changes forms. Zin hates it.
Eye of loss: When it stares at you, it seals a spell or ability, temporarily preventing it from being used. Prefers to keep its distance. Could be an early appearing monster as well I suppose.
foo-tentacled spawn: Similar to a hydra, each tentacle has an attack, and can be chopped off. Unlike a hydra, the tentacles don't regrow; instead you get sprayed by acidic blood whenever one is cut. This can be prevented by using a freeze-branded chopping weapon.

[Lasty]

Deep-spring Horror: Has two attacks, one that creates shallow water under itself and the player and around the player, another that strikes the player with waves while they are in water. It is invisible while in water and it does not cast ripples. It might also create steam clouds and retreat/blink when seriously wounded.

[Bim]

As everyone else agrees, endless yataur packs and stone giants don't make for much fun, but I wouldn't want to see too many 'gimmicky' monsters pop up in D just for the sake of differentiation. As I see it (and I think it's quite good this way) D monsters tend, for the most part, to be standard melee/range whereas branch monsters have much more varied mechanics (sirens in shoals as an excellent example).

To this end, I'd still like to see a differentiation in D, but still with 'meaty' monsters that aren't too gimmicky.

My idea: warrior human/barbarian packs.

They're well equipped with a good mix of ranged, melee and support (like elf packs, but with less magic and more strength), high intelligence which means ranged keep distance whilst melee close in.

Possibly (if it's not easy to get them to coordinate intelligently enough) a 'shoot through' mechanic would allow ranged warriors to shoot through melee attackers at the player.

Strong healers to keep them alive, with support casting the usual buffs.

A sub theme/further differentiation of this could be 'fire warriors' and 'ice warriors' which could add more fire or ice based attacks/resistances.

I know we have vault guards/wardens/convokers, but if the human packs would be more varied/organised they would be sufficiently different and give a slightly better challenge than either straight melee or straight ranged.

[FalconNL]

Another potential enemy mechanic (haven't come up with a good flavour yet):

Solitary large monster that has some trait that makes players want to kill it, such as being very fast. Upon death, a lot of little creatures are released that are annoying in some different way. For reference, think of bursting a spider's egg sac, except with a different flavour since this is D and not Spider.

The idea is to make the players decide which of the two options they'd rather face.

[pubby]

Another potential enemy mechanic (haven't come up with a good flavour yet):

Solitary large monster that has some trait that makes players want to kill it, such as being very fast. Upon death, a lot of little creatures are released that are annoying in some different way..

Higher level mummies are kinda like this, but nobody really runs away from greater mummies because they're afraid of the death curse.

Also, summoning lots of creatures has the problem of failing when the monster is surrounded completely by other monsters. I suppose this could be solved by making the monster invincible while it's surrounded.

It's a fun idea though.

[njvack]

Hellfire immunity is out of the question, since even the toughest things in extended aren't immune to it.

s/hellfire/firestorm/

[Arrhythmia]

Moth of Nihilism

It projects a field of philosophic and religious doubt, leaving all prayers to your god insincere and unanswered. In effect, while you're afflicted by the moth, you are an atheist. After leaving the field, through killing the moth or sheer cowardice, you return to your previous status in the eyes of your deity.

[nicolae]

Moth of Nihilism

It projects a field of philosophic and religious doubt, leaving all prayers to your god insincere and unanswered. In effect, while you're afflicted by the moth, you are an atheist. After leaving the field, through killing the moth or sheer cowardice, you return to your previous status in the eyes of your deity.

Moth of Moths

surrounded by an aura of other moths

[FalconNL]

Spitting cobra

Attacks from range by spraying venom at your eyes, leaving you blinded for 10 turns. While blinded, gameplay proceeds as normal except you can't see anything around you in the UI; the playing field is blacked out. During this time, actions you take provide textual feedback: "You bump into a wall", "You swing at nothing", "You hit something", etc. Characters with the antennae mutation retain their monster detection.

[1010011010]

As everyone else agrees, endless yataur packs and stone giants don't make for much fun, but I wouldn't want to see too many 'gimmicky' monsters pop up in D just for the sake of differentiation. As I see it (and I think it's quite good this way) D monsters tend, for the most part, to be standard melee/range whereas branch monsters have much more varied mechanics (sirens in shoals as an excellent example).

To this end, I'd still like to see a differentiation in D, but still with 'meaty' monsters that aren't too gimmicky.

I have to agree with this, the dungeon can't be a pack of gimmicks especially ones that are too forceful with their gimmicks.

The main dungeon could be the hardest creature list to tailor as the dungeon is and should be very neutral in all aspects, there's not elemental theme like the Shoals, or Gehenna; or creature theme like the Orchish Mines or Pandemonium. This makes it harder to actually bring too many other elements from other branches which would turn the dungeon into a blended version of the other branches (probably why old vaults was so similar to dungeon). So, to take idea creation to a different direction, rather than try and create a neutral monster set, take existing mechanics and concepts found in the dungeon and look and the reverse. This can already be seen in quite a few monsters, for example: It's advantageous to fight in corridors for most cases, but not for slime creatures which become a life threatening when forced together. It's also there with fire and frost Giants.

As a quick proposal here as a opposite to Hell Knights:

Draugr
Flavour: The unresting body of a warrior from a long forgotten land of brutal war, These one seem to have crawled their way out of Cocytus looking for battle. Based of the Nordic equivalent of a zombie.
They come in bands and basically are average undead melee types with Ozocubu's Refrigeration and Metabolic Englaciation (let's encourage players to go for a bit of cold resis) disguised as war chants as flavour.
when in close proximity to the player they beserk, they also beserk when they can see someone else beserking thus setting them all off.
Obviously some cold resistance and mostly equipped with heavy axes likely with a freezing brand.

also anyone feel the increase in orc band difficulty doesn't keep up with the rest of the dungeon?

[FalconNL]

Two more ideas:

Banshee
A female spirit that wanders the dungeon, wailing for those that are about to die. Often thought to be an omen of death. Banshees wander the dungeon, emitting a wail every 50 turns or so, with a loudness somewhere between a regular shout and the Shield of the Gong. Not even remotely challenging on her own, but her wailing means that by the time you encounter her she's probably got half the level's monsters surrounding her.

Assassin
Lone humans that rely on stealth to take out their unsuspecting prey. Similar in concept to trapdoor spiders, but obviously tougher. Will generally lie in wait for you, but will move towards you when you are within three tiles and moving away from them, at which point there's a dice roll to see whether or not you detect the movement. See invisible has no effect on this check. Detect monsters will reveal them. They generally carry poisoned short blades and blowguns with curare needles.

[wizzzargh]

I think a big problem with the pack monsters is that they don't actually work well as a pack, so the player's impression is that multiple enemies is more a question of mashing tab for slightly longer than usual than any real tactical consideration. Yaktaurs keel over and die once you close to melee, Orc and Ogre Packs are hopelessly obsolete, Ugly Things are just a series of colorful speedbumps... It would be nice if these enemies could be tweaked to be more like Deep Troll packs or Vault Guard-Type enemies.

Ogre Packs are dangerous because of the Magi, not because of the ogres. If the Magi came with different allies, they might be a little more relevant.

Orc Packs- Unless we make every fighting Orc into a Warlord and the rest into High Priests and Sorcerers, I just don't think Orcs have a place in deep D.

Ugly Things- Very Ugly Things could get further upgrades to their elemental nature. Purple could emit Miasma, Green Poison Clouds, White could cast Condensation Shield/Ozcubu's Armor... to prevent the issue of friendly fire, they could be made resistant to all but the opposing elements, so Red Ugly Things would be Omniresistant, except against cold. I've never really cared about Ugly Thing color except for item destruction, so making it a big deal if one changes color might be worthwhile.

Yaktaurs- Maybe if they had some manner of Spellcaster support? Say, a Yaktaur Evacuataur that casts Dispersal when you close to melee, making the Yaktaurs a perpetual Ranged threat until the spellcaster is slain. Heck, some Deep Troll spellcasters to Dig corners or Haste the Yaktaurs would make usual tactics less relevant.

The idea that spellcasters from other packs could help packs not of their own species is probably the easiest way to make late D more interesting. A Yaktaur Pack with a dedicated Ogre Magi or Deep Troll EE/Shaman (Or all three!) could be a whole new beast compared to the usual drudgery.

[Tiber]

Banshee
A female spirit that wanders the dungeon, wailing for those that are about to die. Often thought to be an omen of death. Banshees wander the dungeon, emitting a wail every 50 turns or so, with a loudness somewhere between a regular shout and the Shield of the Gong. Not even remotely challenging on her own, but her wailing means that by the time you encounter her she's probably got half the level's monsters surrounding her.

A banshee could make an interesting monster, though I'm iffy on this idea. What if they had an ability like real-life bats, who use their screech to disorient prey? This would give a debuff that reduces accuracy and functions like the blurry vision mutation.

Since we're going the Celtic route, I'm wondering if a Dullahan could be made into an interesting monster.

[jejorda2]

I'd like to see a Banshee's scream damage (or hex) things that can hear but not see it. That way, you have to find it and kill it, and breaking line of sight is harmful instead of helpful.

[Bim]

I think a big problem with the pack monsters is that they don't actually work well as a pack, so the player's impression is that multiple enemies is more a question of mashing tab for slightly longer than usual than any real tactical consideration. Yaktaurs keel over and die once you close to melee, Orc and Ogre Packs are hopelessly obsolete, Ugly Things are just a series of colorful speedbumps... It would be nice if these enemies could be tweaked to be more like Deep Troll packs or Vault Guard-Type enemies..

Agreed - I think part of it is the AI more than anything, they're not bad enemies/types of enemies, they just don't work well enough in a pack. Although, I do see some good reasons, if yaktaurs/centaurs started running away all the time, they might become extremely annoying (remember back when the swamps was just endless chasing things about that you could never catch unless you were a spriggan?).

An easy way would be to have more support monsters - Troll Necromancers for instance, or Yaktaur healers/hasters. Banshee/calling monsters sound interesting though.

Most of the gimmicks seem to be based on 'annoying' monsters which are difficult to kill due to being difficult to find/see/catch - these to me just become an annoyance rather than a tactical challenge (unseen horrors for instance, extremely easy to kill, but they just make sure you've picked up sinvs along the way)

[dpeg]

I'd like to see a Banshee's scream damage (or hex) things that can hear but not see it. That way, you have to find it and kill it, and breaking line of sight is harmful instead of helpful.

That's a great idea.

Re: most everyone: I don't think it's useful to talk about "gimmicks" in advance. If something turns out to lead to tedious or aggravating gameplay, it will be changed or removed. Restricting ourselves when thinking about monsters will lead to a less interesting pool of ideas for sure. I learned from Erik that Shiren has unique mechanics for *every* monster. They don't have to be grandiose, just present and occasionally relevant. Crawl has enough monsters solely defined in terms of numbers, and we are certainly for concepts beyond that.

[evilmike]

Shiren the wanderer isn't really like that. It has a lot of unique enemy behaviours, about 3/4 of enemies are just pallete swaps of other ones but with higher stats.

Anyway, with crawl, most monsters in the dungeon will still have to fit the mold of melee/range/spellcaster type enemies. Stuff with weird abilities can (and does) exist, but should be rare. The reason why giants and yaktarus are left so common right now, is that they work really well. For stranger things, you only encounter a couple a game. This includes new enemies, but also really old ones, like eyes of draining, orange crystal statues, and unseen horrors.

For adding more variety to the game, new monsters can achieve this. But I think it's just as important to ask the following two questions at the same time:
1. what current monsters DON'T add anything to the game? (example: stone golems)
2. what currently existing monsters could be added to late D?

People have already been asking the 2nd question. Branch-specific monsters are pretty much out of the question, but there's stuff used in mid/early D which could probably work in late D too, and it's easy enough to adjust the distributions so they place there. Or, there are enemies which we place already, but are maybe too rare to have much of an effect.

Finially, there are the super-OOD monsters (anything with a base depth lower than D:27, which is to say, it's OOD anywhere it spawns). These are powerful enemies like golden dragons, which generally are found in later vaults. The current list of monsters like this is good, but it's also fairly short. There are also some extremely weird choices for late D in general, for example deep elf priests are one of the deepest enemies in D, technically.

Fixing up this kind of stuff would add a lot more to the game right now with regards to "variety", and would be easier to do too.

[Bim]

I would draw a distinction between 'interesting' and 'gimmicky' - gimmicky is where after you know about the monster/conduct, the challenge is negated or lessened.
Deep troll Earth mages are 'interesting' in that they can dig to get them and their horde closer to you - this is interesting, because it adds a new challenge (less use of environment) but not gimmicky, as it's still effective even when you know they can bust through walls. Unseen horrors are gimmicky, because as soon as you know how the operate, as soon as you their conduct pretty much any char can reliably defend against them and it's only a problem if you don't have Sinvs (they are nevertheless an ok challenge, as they set you up for future invisible enemies).

A lot of the suggestions seem to be focussed on fast, hard to see/find monsters with very specific ways of attack. I don't necessarily think is a problem and this sort of thing is obviously what people feel is missing - how about a 'fast' band/pack? something that can close quickly (and is more dangerous than dogs) but doesn't have lots of hiding/sonja/maurice style gimmicks/annoyances? Would that fill he gap and add another monster set for later?

[KennySheep]

I'd like to see the latter dungeon have something equivalent to the roll goliath beetles in the early dungeon. Something with gigantic amounts of HP and AC, resistances and damage to make it difficult for any type of character to kill, and moving so slowly that the player will probably want to just walk away.

It seems this monster already exists, it's called a crystal golem and it could really use a good home outside of some vaults. The whole golem family would fit in well in D, come to think of it.

[mumra]

It seems this monster already exists, it's called a crystal golem and it could really use a good home outside of some vaults. The whole golem family would fit in well in D, come to think of it.

  Code:


static const pop_entry pop_d[] =
  //...
  { 21, 25,    8, PEAK, MONS_CRYSTAL_GOLEM },

static const pop_entry pop_vaults[] =
  //...
  {  2,  6,    8, PEAK, MONS_CRYSTAL_GOLEM },

static const pop_entry pop_abyss[] =
  //...
  {  1,  5,    4, FLAT, MONS_CRYSTAL_GOLEM },



For those not familiar with how monster populations work: crystal golems have the same weighting in D:21-25 as they do in V:2-6 (yeah, V:6 doesn't actually exist, but some of the distributions have their start or end outside of the depth range just to shape the distribution). They also show up in abyss.

A lot of people find golems one of the most boring monsters precisely because they are "moving so slowly that the player will probably want to just walk away".

Actually there is already a secret plan to make golems more interesting by giving them some special abilities, unfortunately it's too secret for me to talk about (read that as: I don't actually know the specifics).

Certainly I think D and V can benefit from further monster separation, this has already happened to some extent (they used to be identical), but we can go further. And by this I just mean removing monsters from either list (mainly from the V list, except for V:5) to make the branches more distinct. New monsters in either branch would be good too, but we do have a lot of monsters already and many of them could be made more interesting and relevant before we think about adding too many new ones.

[KennySheep]

A lot of people find golems one of the most boring monsters precisely because they are "moving so slowly that the player will probably want to just walk away".

Actually there is already a secret plan to make golems more interesting by giving them some special abilities, unfortunately it's too secret for me to talk about (read that as: I don't actually know the specifics).

Whoops, should have checked that before I said anything. I honestly think monsters that the player can just avoid but tend to cut off escape routs are interesting, although if golems are being reworked to be something more then that's fine.

[mumra]

A lot of people find golems one of the most boring monsters precisely because they are "moving so slowly that the player will probably want to just walk away".

Actually there is already a secret plan to make golems more interesting by giving them some special abilities, unfortunately it's too secret for me to talk about (read that as: I don't actually know the specifics).

Whoops, should have checked that before I said anything. I honestly think monsters that the player can just avoid but tend to cut off escape routs are interesting, although if golems are being reworked to be something more then that's fine.

This can be interesting but 99% of the time they don't work like that. Perhaps if a monster was intentionally designed with AI that was good at doing this (the diffusion algorithm I mentioned earlier would help) it'd be quite good.

[crate]

the thing about golems and other slow melee-only monsters is that you want to kill them because not doing that is annoying, and there's absolutely zero risk in fighting them if you do it smartly, since you can back away and try again if you get damaged

they are marginally better than zombies in that at least they heal hp though

(electric golems are completely different and are a very good enemy)

[KennySheep]

if these monsters ever cut off your escape routes then you are very bad at crawl. since they can't hurt you, you can put them anywhere on the level that you want. if you are really in the habit of putting them in your escape routes then im surprised youre still alive. in real life do you set bear traps in your own bathroom? because thats basically exactly what you did if you ever get your escape cut off by a goliath beetle in crawl.

So you can't think of a single situation were this may come up from something other than player incompetence? I'll admit the situations where you would need to run from a goliath beetle into unexplored hallways are rare, but it can happen (unfortunate teleports and shaft traps come to mind).

[FalconNL]

if these monsters ever cut off your escape routes then you are very bad at crawl. since they can't hurt you, you can put them anywhere on the level that you want.

With the current AI, yes. Which gives me another idea: How about giving some monsters of this archetype an AI that actively seeks out up- and downstairs? That way there's a higher chance of them actually cutting off your escape route when you're running from something else.

[dpeg]

FalconNL: interesting idea! This approach would even make some sense thematically for golems.

[Siegurt]

Better yet if they actively sought out "corridors near staircases"

[Igxfl]

They could try to follow behind you from just outside your LOS, but that might be far too annoying to put into the game.

[mumra]

They could try to follow behind you from just outside your LOS, but that might be far too annoying to put into the game.

Wandering mushrooms...

[Igxfl]

Touché.

[gofftc]

With the current AI, yes. Which gives me another idea: How about giving some monsters of this archetype an AI that actively seeks out up- and downstairs? That way there's a higher chance of them actually cutting off your escape route when you're running from something else.

+

FalconNL: interesting idea! This approach would even make some sense thematically for golems.

=
Great combo, a slow but never stopping golem who chases you through the dungeon, fulfilling it's mission to kill you.

2c's
I kinda like this 'idea', and it dosen't sound too far fetched to implement, the monster is already there......

[crate]

Great combo, a slow but never stopping golem who chases you through the dungeon, fulfilling it's mission to kill you.

imagine if on every d:1 there was one goliath beetle generated
to get to d:2, you must kill this goliath beetle
it should never kill any players, because it's a goliath beetle and is slower than a max-piety naga of chei
killing it is an enormously tedious task

this is basically what you are proposing

[gofftc]

Great combo, a slow but never stopping golem who chases you through the dungeon, fulfilling it's mission to kill you.

imagine if on every d:1 there was one goliath beetle generated
to get to d:2, you must kill this goliath beetle
it should never kill any players, because it's a goliath beetle and is slower than a max-piety naga of chei
killing it is an enormously tedious task

this is basically what you are proposing

imagine once you get to d:15 there where 2d4 golith beetle generated who never stop chasing you
you can get to d:16 but they will follow you.
They be always there for you, and because they are many and they hit hard they are dangerous.
Of course they are boring because they are goliath beetle;
now use your imagination what one could do with some perma-summoned golems once you trigger something.

reduceing ideas down to it's waekest point is not really helping,
I much rather see a little golem army than more beetle, at least there we agree.

[crate]

Yeah that's the thing, I would never move on without killing the beetles (golems) because
1) it's always possible to do so
2) it is impossible for the enemy to kill me
3) it is potentially dangerous if I don't

Now if you also make the enemies at least speed 10 then it's fine. But slow melee-only monsters are by far the worst type of monster in crawl. There's not even a contest (well, ok, stationary monsters and water monsters are close). You cannot do anything to make them interesting (except by making them not slow or not melee-only).

[gofftc]

To stay at the golem-teme, I thougt more like hitting you on sight with magig,
given there can be maaaany kind of golems, and they are pacticly magical beeings created from what material and how many you used.
Also maybe don't let them drop XP. This is practically screaming: stay away.