Give Oka insight into future Ds mutations.

[WildSam]

So he wouldn't gift you stuff you will be unable to use after some level ups.
Reasons: Oka's gifts supposed to be permanent.
His gifts arent nice even when they are permanent. Usually. So decreasing average quality further isn't required.
It's even worse when you get boots of running with talons 2 and you already know those boots are doomed.

[Synaptic]

I really like this idea, coming from someone who enjoys playing Ds a lot.

[nicolae]

So he wouldn't gift you stuff you will be unable to use after some level ups.
Reasons: Oka's gifts supposed to be permanent.
His gifts arent nice even when they are permanent. Usually. So decreasing average quality further isn't required.
It's even worse when you get boots of running with talons 2 and you already know those boots are doomed.

Oka already gives you stuff you can't use on account of "being shitty" I don't see why it's necessary to prevent Oka from also giving you stuff you can't use on account of "freaky huge toenails".

[reaver]

Your premises are flawed in several ways:

Oka's gifts supposed to be permanent.

1) Where on earth did you get this idea? The god gives you multiple weapons, ammo and armor. This is completely incompatible with the idea of these gifts being "permanent." You're suppose to consider and reconsider your equipment thorughout the game.

2) Demonspawn are suppose to be about adapting. If you can't handle getting randomly screwed out of equipment slots, just don't play Demonspawn. This is like people complaining about how Jiyvia eats all their stuff: that's the whole point of Jiyvia. Here's a recent proposal to make these kind of effect more common, that is being partially implemented right now: https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=7441

3) Nobody would notice because Okawaru isn't really worshiped by Demonspawn, because Demonic Guardian is an awesome and fun mutation which worshiping him represses. (Before it did it was even worse- you'd lose piety each time the demon died.) What is the point if so few people will notice? We don't have special interactions for MuCks.

I dislike any special-casing like this, because it's unflavourful, spoilery and information leak-First, you could predict the future by tediously looking at all your gifts, but only if your were "in the know." Avoiding this is explicitly a design goal. Second, Ash is the god of divination, not Okawaru!

Finally, I'd be weird to program. Okawaru gifts use acquirement code. So, should scrolls of acquirement use this too? Should Trog's gifts, which also use acquirement code do the same?

There is only one place where something like this happens, predicting Ds mutations through other events- and that's if you get a scales mutation. As a Ds, you can only get a scales mutation that you'll get permanently later. That's it, and in my opinion that should be removed too.

Thanks for contributing, but please think it through a bit more next time.

[jejorda2]

Doesn't acquirement already prevent draconians from getting body armour, minotaurs from getting helmets, and kobolds from getting giant spiked clubs? Is this really much different? Trog has given me plenty of things I have no skill for, but never something I can't wield.

[Wark]

Doesn't acquirement already prevent draconians from getting body armour, minotaurs from getting helmets, and kobolds from getting giant spiked clubs? Is this really much different?

Not being able to use the gift completely and being gifted, say, boots of running somewhere in Lair and using them until you get 3rd level of Hooves mutation are quite different. Anyway, I don't understand how having access to a useful item for a limited period of time is worse, than not getting this item at all.

[reaver]

Doesn't acquirement already prevent draconians from getting body armour, minotaurs from getting helmets, and kobolds from getting giant spiked clubs? Is this really much different? Trog has given me plenty of things I have no skill for, but never something I can't wield.

The line is drawn between thing which are unusable when they are given and things which may be useless in the future, because of the reasons I mentioned already:

I dislike any special-casing like this, because it's unflavourful, spoilery and information leak-First, you could predict the future by tediously looking at all your gifts, but only if your were "in the know." Avoiding this is explicitly a design goal. Second, Ash is the god of divination, not Okawaru!

Book acquirement doesn't know what your color will be as a draconian because it would be bad for gameplay. Draconians might choose the option just for the knowledge, and I'd be a spoiler that you can tell this way. What if you were an Ice Elementalists and got a Book on Fire Magic? Some people might even quit the character!

So it's very different. Through not much different then Trog giving you something which will be superseded.

One more thing I forgot to mention on how hard to program this would be - acquirement code is also used for vaults. I can't imagine the scumminess of carefully looking through the .des files to find out what vault you're in, looking to see if the acquirement code is used, and then looking to see what restrictions that puts on your future character development. That'd be worse than Nethack's chat consolation, which puts it in a rare category of incredible terribleness.

[caleb]

Doesn't acquirement already prevent draconians from getting body armour, minotaurs from getting helmets, and kobolds from getting giant spiked clubs? Is this really much different? Trog has given me plenty of things I have no skill for, but never something I can't wield.

The line is drawn between thing which are unusable when they are given and things which may be useless in the future, because of the reasons I mentioned already:

I'm sure this has come up somewhere before, but what about disabling shields via acquirement if a character is currently using two-handed weapons?

[Grandiloquent Gentleman]

Ds mutations are determined at the start of the game, draconian colours are redetermined at level 7, fyi.

[WildSam]

Anyway, I don't understand how having access to a useful item for a limited period of time is worse, than not getting this item at all.

Loss hurts, not having at all not that much (especially when it's not something critical like rPois for Nest).
Of course, mechanically it's the other way.

Your premises are flawed in several ways:

1. I just found interesting idea about temporary Oka's gifts at devwiki. Gifts are cool, but you get them for some turns/XLs.
Then they disappear. Those gifts are temporary.
But current gifts remain in Dungeon (considering character's inventory as part of Dungeon) for rest of the game and usable at any moment after gifting. They're permanent.
And it's work that way for any race except Ds. Because its single race which guaranteed to get slot-restrictions, but in unknown moment later.
2. I just pointed armour gifting mechanic working not as intented (supposing it to work in permanent way, in which it works for every other race).
It isn't about slot loss which is part of Ds racial mechanic, it hardly matters most of the time.
3. a) You say a few people play Ds of Oka (which obviously isnt true, statistically or logically (Oka got pretty not bad synergy with Ds without DG (and with last changes even with DG)), but whatever) so there is no reason to care about Oka's interacation with Ds' mutations.
b) You mention Demonic Guardian corner-cased for Okawaru not long ago.

Also i see that not as corner-casing, because technically Ds corner-cased already by it's racial mechanic in same way every race with intrinsic slot-restrictions is. And you also may want to Oka to gift boots to nagas, because it's just another horrible exception and Mighty God Of War shouldn't care much about race of follower.

Thanks for reminding, probably just acquirement code should be changed if I guess right about this moment working not as intended.
Also i dont see much spoiler potential if with some not very high probablity you can predict which body mutation you will get without any chance to change it.
There are scales already, which effectively say YOURE NOT MONSTROUS BRO. And this information is more valuable than YOU WILL GET SOMETHING ON YOUR HEAD SO DONT ENCHANT THIS HELMET.

Thanks for contributing, but please think it through a bit more next time.

It's my most deep and rational proposal by the way (even if still somewhat motivated by my love to Ds and overwhelming attention to small thing about it). And the secondary goal of this proposal is learning about acquirement logic: should it give you stuff usable for you (and then giving devs idea about fixing this) or stuff usable for you at the moment (which i believe to hurt my favorite race).
If there is some way to learn this without starting threads and writing long posts (i don't think so because difference matters only for one race) i would appreciate link more than "think more".

[WildSam]

I dont like to read attentively.

[Galefury]

Huh? When you can see the vault the items have already been generated.

[WildSam]

My bad, understood it wrong.
Anyway, i dont see much reason in searching for vaults for sake of learning which slot you will inevitabily lose (usually you get this information pretty early because of first level in relevant mutation).
May be i am bad player and cool kids get some huge profit using this.

[Grimm]

MuCKs

ftfy

[crate]

Doesn't acquirement already prevent draconians from getting body armour, minotaurs from getting helmets, and kobolds from getting giant spiked clubs? Is this really much different? Trog has given me plenty of things I have no skill for, but never something I can't wield.

The line is drawn between thing which are unusable when they are given and things which may be useless in the future, because of the reasons I mentioned already:

I'm sure this has come up somewhere before, but what about disabling shields via acquirement if a character is currently using two-handed weapons?

Acquirement never checks what equipment the player is currently using, and for good reason. I don't want to have to wield a great sword I'm not using just to avoid acquiring a shield, and thankfully I don't have to. I am pretty sure that your weapon skill (and maybe your shield skill?) already affects how likely you are to get a shield from acquirement.

[xzanthius]

Perhaps one could offer one's allies the option of running away from combat. Or perhaps tweaking Oka so that you can avert his wrath by making your next kill the creature which killed your ally or a time limit to exact your revenge. (they would have to be marked for revenge). It would be fun to play a Demonspawn of Vengence (Oka style).

[prozacelf]

Acquirement never checks what equipment the player is currently using, and for good reason. I don't want to have to wield a great sword I'm not using just to avoid acquiring a shield, and thankfully I don't have to. I am pretty sure that your weapon skill (and maybe your shield skill?) already affects how likely you are to get a shield from acquirement.

According to Henzell:

  Code:


        Picks an armour type (includes shield) that you can currently wear. If it picks body armour, has a low (about 20%) to make random dragon armour, else makes a body armour type randomly weighted by your skills (25% chance of CPA instead of plate).
        If it picks a brand you've seen, tries a few times to reroll it. If it made something plain it'll make a plain armour filling an empty slot.



Which makes sense. I typically get a buckler of some sort if all my other armor slots are in use and I haven't seen one yet. Which is good, because I'm usually looking for a buckler if I do that anyway.

[prozacelf]

Ah. That's slightly misleading, but not too much. Of course, if I've seen an item that would go in the slot I'm pretty likely to be wearing it, unless it's just atrocious.

[reaver]

Ds mutations are determined at the start of the game, draconian colours are redetermined at level 7, fyi.

I don't think this is really that relevant. Ds mutations are rolled at the start because of all their constraints, (No two on the same level, always a mutation at level 2, no overlap of ice and fire mutations, etc.). Presumably Draconian color could be easily rolled at game start too.

Huh? When you can see the vault the items have already been generated.

I believe the acquirement items are generated at level generation. There is some description of the commands here: https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:help:maps:syntax:item_info. The lair endings due_jungle_book , evil_forest , kennels , and evilmike_catoblepas_cave all use acquire items (Ctrl-f "acquire").

(supposing it to work in permanent way, in which it works for every other race).

Oka's gifts supposed to be permanent.

1) Where on earth did you get this idea? The god gives you multiple weapons, ammo and armor. This is completely incompatible with the idea of these gifts being "permanent." You're suppose to consider and reconsider your equipment thorughout the game.

And you also may want to Oka to gift boots to nagas, because it's just another horrible exception and Mighty God Of War shouldn't care much about race of follower.

The line is drawn between thing which are unusable when they are given and things which may be useless in the future,

I've demonstrated a consistant stance on this issue which I think is the general stance of the crawl dev team and community, and you aren't really attacking it. Could you direct your reasons more toward why my counter arguments are wrong? I'd be better for both of us.

7371/255647 games for * (ds): N=7371/255647 (2.88%)

Sequell is a bot on ##crawl which has statistics on online games. This means under 3% of Demonspawn worship Okawaru, which is rather low. I'm fine with ceding this point to you though-7371 is a lot, not even considering offline games.

May be i am bad player and cool kids get some huge profit using this.

This isn't for players who are good. This is for players with OCD, or who were misinformed by the Crawl Wiki. The goal of Crawl isn't to make scumming optional, it's to make it impossible.

And the secondary goal of this proposal is learning about acquirement logic: should it give you stuff usable for you (and then giving devs idea about fixing this) or stuff usable for you at the moment (which i believe to hurt my favorite race).
If there is some way to learn this without starting threads and writing long posts (i don't think so because difference matters only for one race) i would appreciate link more than "think more".

I can't say I haven't asked this sort of dual-natured question myself. I tried searching for "acquirement" on this site, but I couldn't find anything, nor could I find anything on the wiki. I know these opinions are out there somewhere-I clearly remember somebody complaing that their kobold just got a leather armor, and a dev responding that was intended behavior for aquirement to simply fail sometimes. It is important to remember that aquirement is specifically differented form wishes, often seen in other roguelikes,
(http://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Wish, http://ancardia.wikia.com/wiki/Wishing)
because the behavior is thought to be anti-Crawl.

(It isn't because it'd be hard to implement wishing either- the Wiz mode command "o" is basically wishing.)
I'm going to start a thread on how to learn more on the development process soon.

[rchandra]

this might be a more relevant sequell query:

  Code:

(01:53:48) rchandra: !lm * ds god.worship / god.worship=okawaru
(01:53:51) Sequell: 6654/26909 milestones for * (ds god.worship): N=6654/26909 (24.73%)

Of all Ds who select a god, how often is it okawaru? So I'm not including Berserkers and other zealots, nor the thousands of deaths before getting a god. On the downside, if a Ds worships 2 gods over a game they will be counted twice there.

[galehar]

I know these opinions are out there somewhere-I clearly remember somebody complaing that their kobold just got a leather armor, and a dev responding that was intended behavior for aquirement to simply fail sometimes.

How is that a failure? The rule is that acquirement may never give you items you cannot use, but it can give you crap items. There was an edge case with god hated items. You cannot really use them, but it's not a permanent ban since you can change god. It was still pretty stupid to get one so it's been changed recently.
Regarding the OP, I disagree. It's rarely relevant, and not always a bad thing. I'd by happy to get boots of running for thousands of turns, even if I have to dump them latter. And as someone said, Oka isn't Ash, how is he supposed to know what mutations you'll get?

[reaver]

How is that a failure? The rule is that acquirement may never give you items you cannot use, but it can give you crap items.

That's what I meant by "failure." The item is something you wouldn't use. I probably didn't phrase that the best way.

Thanks for the better figures, rchandra. Is there are Sequell guide would help me not make that mistake again?

[rchandra]

Thanks for the better figures, rchandra. Is there are Sequell guide would help me not make that mistake again?

Henzell: listgame[1/6]: !lg command displays info about past games. The manual is available here: http://github.com/greensnark/dcss_henze ... stgame.txt

Figuring out exactly what to do can be tricky, but this lists all your components.

[WildSam]

And as someone said, Oka isn't Ash, how is he supposed to know what mutations you'll get?

When somebody talks about realism in crawl, I just remember about ocean under ocean under ocean under ocean under ocean.
Underground.

[Wark]

And as someone said, Oka isn't Ash, how is he supposed to know what mutations you'll get?

When somebody talks about realism in crawl, I just remember about ocean under ocean under ocean under ocean under ocean.
Underground.

Except it is not about realism, but about god's background and flavour. And it is obviously not the only or the most important argument against the proposal.

[WildSam]

Except it is not about realism, but about god's background and flavour.

Realism ~= logical/make believe (in some obviously nonreal setting with demons and stuff) ~= good flavour.
I wanted to comment about this not for sake of proposal (because it looks not supported and anything work like intended), but because such argumentation for some minor mechanical tweak dont looks reasonable.
Oka already somehow knows your skills and adjust gifts accordingly (and still not god of divination).
You can say he's cool god of war and easy notices your style or stuff but he can gift you +3/+3 sword after +2/+2 so he obviously don't know nothing about war actually and his skills pretty suck.

[xzanthius]

In my opinion Oka is great god if you KNOW that you will be switching later on.