DrIE just turned red...

[hopelessDelvder]

OK, that's annoying. My DrIE just turned red. Now, I had found a book of fire, and left it right where it was, so I went back for it, and then i noticed the anti training (!) of -4 . Sorry, is that fun?

So, I surmise, draconian casters should train charms and spellcasting until they reach lvl 7? I knew this could happen and said, hey, i have a 6 in 7 chance.

Ugh. I just want to kill this guy of and play a troll now.

Anyway, what would you do? No need for a dump, I have a seemingly nice (by the hits and damage it's doing untrained) dagger of venom - I have 5 levels of ice magic giving the fire magic -4 antitraining, i assume that goes on until i get to lvl 5 Fire Magic. venom dagger + ignite poison sounds kind of super-fun, but i figure i'm just going to get killed.

[hopelessDelvder]

I should mention i have found the Temple haven't picked a god yet (decided to wait until my color came up). Veh altar has not appeared. Ash, Makhleb , Sif , and Chei who seem like good candidates are available.

[BlackSheep]

Veh will show up before floor 9 if you want his help with some new spells. Ash will let you transfer your Ice magic skills to something else once you reach high piety. Chei is... challenging. You probably don't want to choose Chei.

Don't get too discouraged by the color mismatch. There's a lot of game left to transition to fire magic, if that's what you want to do. Otherwise, you can stick with Ice magic in spite of the reduced aptitude. Stick to training Charms and Conjurations, and let the boost from Vehumet or Ash make up the difference.

[Abominae]

I would start training Conjurations & Ice until I have Throw Icicle online. Then do whatever. Get a melee weapon trained, train more ice, train more fire, w/e you want. You have one of the best Dr colors, I wouldn't be so quick to throw the character away.

Conjurations doesn't receive any sort of aptitude penalty from Dr colors or cross-training. It's also part of a lot of strong Ice & Fire spells, as well as tons of others. So I'd probably make that a priority if you wanted to lean on casting for most of your damage.

[hopelessDelvder]

Thx, but if you look up "suboptimal" in the dictionary I believe it says "Red DrIE of Ash" All right, I'm going to turn on Conjurations and soldier on for Vehumet. But, srsly, I guess I can see why a high-level Fire and Ice elementalist would be OP, but urgh, I just want to say 'annoying' a few more times and get it out of my system...

[tasonir]

This is the dictionary entry for suboptimal.

Also the entry for roughly half of my wins

[hopelessDelvder]

It sounds good to train a little fire and a little ice but if my fire ever gets above my ice, ice will train at -6 due to antitraining, right? Ash would solve this problem with a skill boost (and reskilling later) to Fire if i can get jewelry bound pretty quick. I repeat...annoying. Ice is pretty much out unless, i never train fire, and book of fire is in my pack and has Dragon Form and Fireball.

OK so Ash - conjurations - and hopefully some other books soon (DOOOOOOOOMED!)

[some12fat2move]

As a red draconian, exp gain in fire magic is going to be double what you get in ice magic (the aptitude difference is 4), so I would just abandon ice and go for fire. Five levels isn't much, you'll make the jump pretty quickly and bolt of fire kicks ass. Don't know why you brought up dragon form since that's not fire (you're draconian).

[BlackSheep]

If you get so discouraged by negative aptitude synergy, why did you pick a species with a random aptitude factor?

[hopelessDelvder]

Well, I picked Dr because my Dr casters tend to survive better at lower levels and it's been a while since I got a cloud spell online. It's not the aptitude shift, I'm fine with that, it's the antitraining on a primary skill when I'm squishy. i forgot about antitraining because i've only read about it. 5 levels at -2 is not so bad, I guess, but my pure caster build plans put this guy in, I would argue, quite a bit of jeopardy for the next few levels, since the only Fire spell I have effective access to right now is Fire Brand.

I mean, I can duck and run for a while, I'm in a sewer, right now, so Freeze is very effective. But, in my opinion the RNG just gated me into becoming a hybrid. But, quitting is so anti-roguelike that I'm just going to keep telling you how annoying his situation is, consider it a coping mechanism.

[BlackSheep]

Like I said, you don't have to switch to fire. You're perfectly capable of carrying on as an Ice mage.

[Psieye]

So now you will have strong Ice magic with a fire breath for the few rC enemies that you'd rather kill quicker than Throw Icicle. I think I saw a dump once of a red DrIE who jsut grabbed both Fire Storm and Ice Storm because he could.

[dassem]

Yep, as BlackSheep and Psieye said: You can carry on with a relatively mild penalty, but you will have some rF+, and a way to deal with enemies that have lots of rC. Nice!

I would stick with ice, Vehumet, and conjurations, but it seems that's what always works for me...

I've also definitely thought that a character with both Fire and Ice storms castable would be lots of fun, and you've now got one of the few builds where that's not a totally bad idea. Take that, resistant Pan Lords!

[KoboldLord]

-2 isn't really all that terrible of an aptitude, particularly since the majority of the spells you're talking about are also conjurations, which you have normal aptitude with. Just pump more into conjurations, and you'll be good. Maybe plan to hybridize into melee instead of rushing for Ice Storm.

On the other hand, switching elements is perfectly doable too. The -4 cross-training penalty goes away when you tick the level above the opposing skill, and low levels of skill are cheap no matter what the aptitude is. -4 aptitude is double cost, and doubling a very cheap cost is still pretty cheap.

[hopelessDelvder]

Update: Found Vehumet, got Sting and IMB, found Young Poisoner's Handbook so I learned Meph and went into Poison Magic. Found a whip of electrocution and a rings of Protection and Evasion. I am mostly Stinging, IMB-ing and then Freezing or melee-ing. I ended up destroying the Frost book to forget Throw Icicle in favor of IMB (I did not want to miss my chance at that gift, and I had been ignoring Spellcasting). He's doing very well against what would be tough monsters with other builds.

But, I gotta disagree with parts of your advice, while appreciating it nonetheless. I could stick with Ice Magic -- if I had the books. But, no, you can't functionally train up Fire and Ice with a red Draconian. You are going to spend most of your time leveling elemental schools with an aptitude of -2 or -6,due to anti-training. Choosing Vehument definitely incentivizes Conjurations as the main skill.

Finally found the Lair. I'll probably turn off M&F, if I can get past whatever invisible thing is currently whacking me on the head.

Anyway, despite my polite disageement, I do appreciate the advice of you goodplayers. I am used to splatting casters, and I came into this one with a focused plan (basically to get Freezing Cloud online) and the RNG vetoed that -- so I'm still scrambling to recover.

  Code:

 Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.12-a0-2624-g3eaf7e5 (webtiles) character file.

zercules the Basher (DrIE)                         Turns: 14272, Time: 03:03:55

HP  36/74        AC 17     Str 10 (11) XL: 11   Next: 83%
MP  22/26        EV 17     Int 19      God: Vehumet [*****.]
Gold 520         SH  0     Dex 11      Spells:  8 memorised,  4 levels left

Res.Fire  : + . .   See Invis. : .   M - +3,+4 whip (elec)
Res.Cold  : . . .   Warding    : .   (armour unavailable)
Life Prot.: . . .   Conserve   : .   (no shield)
Res.Poison: .       Res.Corr.  : .   v - +0 wizard hat
Res.Elec. : .       Clarity    : .   G - +0 cloak
Sust.Abil.: . .     Spirit.Shd : .   f - +1 pair of dwarf gloves
Res.Mut.  : .       Stasis     : .   L - +1 pair of boots
Res.Rott. : .       Ctrl.Telep.: .   z - cursed amulet of the gourmand
Gourmand  : +       Flight     : .   h - +5 ring of evasion
                                     p - +5 ring of protection

@: confused, slowed, very slow, somewhat resistant to hostile enchantments, very
unstealthy
A: breathe fire, unfitting armour, fire resistance 1, AC +7
a: Breathe Fire, Renounce Religion


You are on level 13 of the Dungeon.
You worship Vehumet.
Vehumet is extremely pleased with you.
You are not hungry.

You have visited 2 branches of the dungeon, and seen 14 of its levels.
You have also visited: Sewer.

You have collected 500 gold pieces.

Inventory:

Hand weapons
 n - a +1,+2 orcish dagger of venom
 M - a +3,+4 whip of electrocution (weapon)
Missiles
 k - 39 stones
 l - 31 arrows
 E - 7 arrows of dispersal
 Q - 6 javelins (quivered)
Armour
 f - a +1 pair of dwarven gloves (worn)
 q - a buckler
 v - a +0 wizard hat (worn)
 G - a +0 cloak (worn)
 L - a +1 pair of boots (worn)
Magical devices
 d - a wand of lightning {zapped: 2}
 e - a wand of polymorph (4)
 t - a worn fluorescent wand {zapped: 1} {tried by monster}
 y - a wand of hasting {zapped: 2}
 F - a wand of flame {zapped: 3}
 P - a wand of teleportation {zapped: 3}
Comestibles
 a - a sausage
 c - 13 bread rations
 w - a choko
 A - a cheese
Scrolls
 j - a scroll of remove curse
 o - 7 scrolls of teleportation
 D - a scroll of magic mapping
 V - 2 scrolls of fear
Jewellery
 h - a +5 ring of evasion (right hand)
 i - an uncursed ring of life protection
 p - a +5 ring of protection (left hand)
 s - an encrusted marble ring
 x - an uncursed ring of sustenance
 z - a cursed amulet of the gourmand (around neck)
 J - an uncursed ring of flight
 R - an uncursed amulet of resist corrosion
Potions
 b - 2 potions of flight
 g - a potion of agility
 m - a potion of speed
 u - 4 potions of curing
 B - a potion of brilliance
 I - a potion of invisibility
Magical staves
 r - an uncursed staff of conjuration


   Skills:
 - Level 4.3 Short Blades
 + Level 10.4 Maces & Flails
 - Level 0.1 Throwing
 - Level 2.0 Dodging
 - Level 1.8 Stealth
 - Level 0.2 Unarmed Combat
 - Level 8.2 Spellcasting
 + Level 9.0 Conjurations
 - Level 3.9 Charms
 + Level 4.5 Fire Magic
 - Level 4.7 Ice Magic
 - Level 5.5 Poison Magic


You have 4 spell levels left.
You know the following spells:

 Your Spells              Type           Power        Failure   Level  Hunger
a - Sting                 Conj/Pois      #####        1%          1    None
b - Ozocubu's Armour      Chrm/Ice       ####......   6%          3    #......
c - Iskenderun's Mystic   Conj           ######...    1%          4    ###....
d - Fire Brand            Chrm/Fire      ####......   2%          2    None
e - Freeze                Ice            #####        1%          1    None
f - Conjure Flame         Conj/Fire      #####....    1%          3    #......
g - Mephitic Cloud        Conj/Pois/Air  #####....    1%          3    #......
h - Bolt of Magma         Conj/Fire/Erth #####.....   12%         5    ####...


Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations

Branches:
Dungeon (13/27)            Temple (1/1) D:4             Orc (0/4) D:7
   Lair (0/8) D:13       

Altars:
Ashenzari
Cheibriados
Elyvilon
Fedhas
Kikubaaqudgha
Makhleb
Nemelex Xobeh
Okawaru
Sif Muna
Trog
Vehumet
Xom
Yredelemnul
Zin
the Shining One
Beogh

Shops:
D:9: *

Annotations
D:13 Erica


Innate Abilities, Weirdness & Mutations

You can breathe blasts of fire.
Your fiery red scales are hard (AC +7).
Your body does not fit into most forms of armour.
Your cold-blooded metabolism reacts poorly to cold.
Your flesh is heat resistant.


Message History

The sting hits the cyan ugly thing. The cyan ugly thing is poisoned.
The cyan ugly thing is moderately wounded.
It hits you but does no damage.
The cyan ugly thing pecks you but does no damage.
You hit the cyan ugly thing.
The cyan ugly thing is moderately wounded.
The cyan ugly thing closely misses you.
You closely miss the cyan ugly thing.
You tail-slap the cyan ugly thing, but do no damage.
The cyan ugly thing is moderately wounded.
It completely misses you.
The cyan ugly thing pecks you!
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
The cyan ugly thing shocks you!
It hits you but does no damage.
You hear some strange, mumbled words.
You are confused.
You hit it.
It completely misses you.
Save game and exit?

         #########
######   #.......#
.....#####.).....+
.....#...'.......#
.....[.###.......#      .
.....### #.......#     ...
(....#   #.......######....
.....#   ##+##..@........[..
.....#    #..>.#.#.#.#.#.#.#
######    ###...u...#.......
#           #..#B#(#.#...#.#.
#      #######'#..%..........
#      #..%(.......#.#.....#.
##   ###.<.(.(()..%%.........
.#####.'.........%%..#......
.'.....#.........%#.....)...


You can see a goliath beetle and a cyan ugly thing.

Vanquished Creatures
  Gastronok (D:13)
  A centaur warrior (D:10)
  The ghost of Calypsia the Martial Artist, an experienced DsMo of Xom (D:8)
  2 unseen horrors (D:10)
  Pikel (D:7)
  A griffon skeleton (D:10)
  5 ugly things (D:13)
  3 trolls
  A spriggan (D:8)
  2 wyverns
  A komodo dragon zombie (D:12)
  A rock worm (D:12)
  3 hippogriffs
  A sky beast (D:7)
  2 phantoms
  A mottled dragon (D:13)
  7 orc warriors
  2 black bears (D:7)
  4 ice beasts
  A yellow wasp (D:10)
  5 ogres
  7 centaurs
  2 crocodiles
  2 big kobolds
  A gnoll sergeant (D:9)
  5 giant frogs
  A basilisk zombie (D:12)
  Blork the orc (D:8)
  A water moccasin (D:12)
  An eye of draining (D:9)
  A grizzly bear simulacrum (D:8)
  7 wights
  2 goliath beetles
  3 hounds
  A big kobold skeleton (D:10)
  6 crimson imps
  6 orc priests
  3 shadows
  Crazy Yiuf (D:3)
  3 hound skeletons
  5 iguanas
  10 worker ants
  A scorpion (D:8)
  7 orc wizards
  A statue (D:5)
  2 sheep (D:13)
  2 hound simulacra (D:8)
  5 jellies
  4 green rats
  12 adders
  A giant centipede (D:13)
  8 gnolls
  7 giant mites
  A giant centipede zombie (D:10)
  A worm (D:5)
  3 sheep simulacra (D:8)
  A bat zombie (D:9)
  3 giant eyeballs
  An ooze (D:7)
  39 orcs
  19 bats
  10 giant cockroaches
  9 goblins
  14 hobgoblins
  3 jackals (D:2)
  19 kobolds
  12 ball pythons
  20 giant geckos
  20 giant newts
  A giant spore (D:10)
  A kobold zombie (D:6)
  2 orc skeletons
  6 quokkas
  A quokka skeleton (D:10)
  46 rats
  5 rat simulacra (D:8)
  3 ballistomycetes (D:10)
405 creatures vanquished.

Vanquished Creatures (others)
  A necromancer (D:8)
  2 orc priests (D:7)
  An adder (D:7)
  A giant eyeball (D:9)
  9 orcs
  A goblin (D:7)
  A hobgoblin (D:9)
  A giant newt (D:3)
  A giant spore (D:8)
18 creatures vanquished.

Grand Total: 423 creatures vanquished

Notes
Turn   | Place    | Note
--------------------------------------------------------------
     0 | D:1      | zercules, the Draconian Ice Elementalist, began the quest for the Orb.
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 1. HP: 14/14 MP: 3/3
   392 | D:1      | Reached XP level 2. HP: 14/20 MP: 0/4
  1045 | D:2      | Reached XP level 3. HP: 26/26 MP: 6/6
  1543 | D:2      | Reached XP level 4. HP: 27/33 MP: 8/8
  2013 | D:2      | Learned a level 3 spell: Ozocubu's Armour
  2516 | D:3      | Reached skill level 4 in Ice Magic
  2516 | D:3      | Reached XP level 5. HP: 35/38 MP: 4/11
  3370 | D:3      | Noticed Crazy Yiuf
  3383 | D:3      | Reached XP level 6. HP: 35/45 MP: 11/14
  3387 | D:3      | Killed Crazy Yiuf
  3586 | D:4      | Found a shattered altar of Ashenzari.
  3639 | D:4      | Reached skill level 5 in Ice Magic
  3886 | D:4      | Found a burning altar of Makhleb.
  4413 | D:4      | Found a staircase to the Ecumenical Temple.
  4423 | Temple   | Entered the Ecumenical Temple
  4601 | D:5      | Entered Level 5 of the Dungeon
  4713 | D:5      | Learned a level 4 spell: Throw Icicle
  4774 | D:5      | Your scales start taking on a fiery red colour.
  4774 | D:5      | Gained mutation: Your flesh is heat resistant. [draconian maturity]
  4774 | D:5      | Reached XP level 7. HP: 46/50 MP: 9/17
  4825 | D:5      | Paralysed by a giant eyeball for 4 turns
  4937 | D:5      | Reached skill level 5 in Spellcasting
  5014 | D:3      | Learned a level 2 spell: Fire Brand
  5176 | D:5      | Found a glowing drain.
  5231 | Sewer    | Entered a sewer
  5400 | Sewer    | Reached skill level 1 in Short Blades
  5519 | Sewer    | Upgraded the game from 0.12-a0-2612-g8f33a4f to 0.12-a0-2624-g3eaf7e5
  5569 | Sewer    | Reached skill level 1 in Charms
  6183 | D:5      | Found a radiant altar of Vehumet.
  6275 | D:5      | Reached XP level 8. HP: 45/57 MP: 19/19
  6277 | D:5      | Became a worshipper of Vehumet
  6795 | D:5      | Found an ancient bone altar of Kikubaaqudgha.
  7459 | D:7      | Noticed Pikel
  7475 | D:7      | Killed Pikel
  7727 | D:7      | Found a staircase to the Orcish Mines.
  7730 | D:7      | Found a roughly hewn altar of Beogh.
  7904 | D:7      | Found a bloodstained altar of Trog.
  7920 | D:7      | Reached skill level 1 in Maces & Flails
  7920 | D:7      | Reached skill level 1 in Fire Magic
  7920 | D:7      | Reached XP level 9. HP: 58/62 MP: 16/20
  7925 | D:7      | Acquired Vehumet's first power
  7925 | D:7      | Offered knowledge of Sting by Vehumet.
  7934 | D:7      | Learned a level 1 spell: Sting
  8112 | D:7      | Reached skill level 1 in Poison Magic
  8884 | D:7      | Reached skill level 5 in Conjurations
  9199 | D:8      | Offered knowledge of Sandblast by Vehumet.
  9268 | D:8      | Noticed Blork the orc
  9283 | D:8      | Killed Blork the orc
  9321 | D:8      | Noticed Calypsia's ghost (experienced DsMo)
  9343 | D:8      | Killed Calypsia's ghost
  9343 | D:8      | Reached skill level 6 in Conjurations
  9622 | D:8      | Noticed a necromancer
  9630 | D:8      | Killed a necromancer
  9630 | D:8      | Reached XP level 10. HP: 69/69 MP: 21/21
  9938 | D:8      | Reached skill level 5 in Maces & Flails
 10059 | D:9      | Reached skill level 5 in Poison Magic
 10118 | D:9      | Offered knowledge of Conjure Flame by Vehumet.
 10120 | D:9      | Reached skill level 7 in Conjurations
 10130 | D:9      | Learned a level 3 spell: Conjure Flame
 10367 | D:9      | Found an iron altar of Okawaru.
 10440 | D:9      | Found Zin's Purification Station.
 10449 | D:9      | Found a glowing silver altar of Zin.
 10467 | D:9      | Acquired Vehumet's second power
 10643 | D:9      | Learned a level 3 spell: Mephitic Cloud
 10782 | D:9      | Found a shimmering altar of Xom.
 10909 | D:9      | Paralysed by a giant eyeball for 3 turns
 11137 | D:9      | Offered knowledge of Iskenderun's Mystic Blast by Vehumet.
 11510 | Temple   | Learned a level 4 spell: Iskenderun's Mystic Blast
 11785 | D:10     | Entered Level 10 of the Dungeon
 12264 | D:10     | Killed an unseen horror
 12264 | D:10     | Reached skill level 8 in Maces & Flails
 12280 | D:10     | Noticed a centaur warrior
 12287 | D:10     | Killed a centaur warrior
 12287 | D:10     | Reached XP level 11. HP: 22/74 MP: 5/25
 12498 | D:10     | Acquired Vehumet's third power
 12665 | D:10     | Offered knowledge of Bolt of Magma by Vehumet.
 12673 | D:10     | Noticed a fire giant
 12692 | D:11     | Noticed a seven-headed hydra
 12725 | D:11     | Noticed a hill giant
 12792 | D:10     | Killed an unseen horror
 12792 | D:10     | Reached skill level 9 in Maces & Flails
 12826 | D:10     | Learned a level 5 spell: Bolt of Magma
 14062 | D:13     | Noticed Gastronok
 14105 | D:13     | Killed Gastronok
 14105 | D:13     | Reached skill level 10 in Maces & Flails
 14160 | D:13     | Found a staircase to the Lair.
 14250 | D:13     | Noticed Erica


Action                   |  1- 3 |  4- 6 |  7- 9 | 10-12 || total
-------------------------+-------+-------+-------+-------++-------
Melee: Unarmed           |    56 |       |       |     8 ||    64
       Dagger            |    59 |   204 |   271 |       ||   534
       Whip              |       |       |   137 |   576 ||   713
       Staff             |       |       |    21 |       ||    21
Throw: Dart              |     4 |     8 |     5 |       ||    17
       Javelin           |       |       |    25 |    13 ||    38
       Stone             |       |       |       |     1 ||     1
 Cast: Freeze            |    17 |    59 |   147 |    91 ||   314
       Ozocubu's Armour  |       |     6 |     1 |     2 ||     9
       Sting             |       |       |    59 |   106 ||   165
       Iskenderun's Myst |       |       |       |    39 ||    39
       Conjure Flame     |       |       |       |     4 ||     4
       Mephitic Cloud    |       |       |       |     3 ||     3
Evoke: Wand              |       |     9 |     8 |     3 ||    20
  Use: Scroll            |       |     9 |     8 |    21 ||    38
       Potion            |       |     2 |     1 |     4 ||     7


[hopelessDelvder]

Heh, the first thing i said when my DrIE turned red "I'm sure to find an ice cave now" D13 - there it is. I'm going to give Fire Breath and Magma Bolt a shot in there.

[Thalfon]

Yeah, a part of the game is adapting to what it does -- or doesn't -- throw at you.

I guess the good news is that the big -4 was partially mitigated by the +2 from going red, so training Fire was no worse than training Ice at -2. And it looks like you're a mere 0.2 from that ceasing to be a concern as well.