Yred Revamp Proposal -or- 99 Problems (But a Lich Ain't One)


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Post Monday, 17th December 2012, 04:07

Yred Revamp Proposal -or- 99 Problems (But a Lich Ain't One)

Alternate title: 50 Shades of Grey (Draconians)

Background:

I like Yredrelemnul. "Carry the black torch! Rouse the idle dead!" is one of my all-time favorite slogans. And Yred is hardly weak -- free zombies are powerful, Enslave is pretty dope, and who can argue with a Bone Dragon or Servitor (or a few!) not long after Lair?

The problem, in my mind: both Animate and Recall are pretty close to identical to existing spells (yeah, Animate affects all of LOS) and the permanent allies, while great, are somewhat like having a few really good summons really early, who go and stomp everything for you.

And then there's the complete lack of postgame viability :(

Proposal:

Yred remains the God of Undead Supremacy. In fact, in following Yred, players ultimately choose undeath over life.

Yes, the big gimmick here is that when a living player begins worshipping Yred, the game starts tracking (perhaps) XP-since-joining scaled by XL. When that crosses a threshold, you become a lich (or a shade, if you don't want to call it lichform). I imagine that if you joined at the Temple and killed dudes, you'd change around the time you were going to enter Zot. Once they're ready to change, players would get it as an ability for, say, 1000 turns (with increasingly urgent warnings) so the don't just get changed in the middle of a fight with a necromancer or something. Players who ignore the warnings will be forcibly changed.

Changed players are mechanically equivalent (or at least very similar) to Necromutated players.

Abandonment does not stop the change. Yred wrath will be unpleasant to undrinking undead -- periodic bouts of rot and confusion would be potential wrath effects. Yred may also nullify the effects of potions during wrath for still-living characters.

I'd advocate Yred in this form would replace Necromutation. Worshipping Yred automatically excommunicates players from the good gods and Fedhas.

Piety and Penance:

Appreciates:
* You or allies killing living things or holy beings
* Friendly undead (you or allies) destroying demons or constructions
* You or your allies animating corpses

Depreciates:
* Using Holy Wrath or Holy Word (penance)
* Using Undeadhunter (penance)
* Attacking allied or neutral undead (piety loss)

Abilities:

*: Zombify. Applies the "Zombify" status for 50-ish turns. You and allied zombies get an auxillary (very low damage) bite attack; when a zombifiable monster is bitten and leaves a corpse, it will rise as a zombie after 1d3 turns. Successful bites also slightly heal zombies. Cost: MP, food.

**: Quicken. Allied zombies have the speed of their living counterparts. (Passive)

Pain mirror. As now; for undeads, also shields player from some (10%?) of dealt damage. Cost: piety for reflected damage.

***: Call slave. Calls one (or a few?) of your best (based on HD and HP) zombies to your location, across levels and branches. Will not call zombies into Hell, Pan, or Abyss. Maybe a chance of calling a temporary Yred gift? (Piety)

****: Drain Life. Largely as now. For undeads, will work (albeit less effectively) against demonic and holy monsters. (Piety)

Charm undead. All enemy undead in LOS check HD against player piety and Invo. (This happens only once for a monster.) Monsters failing this check may become confused, permanently neutral, or temporarily friendly transitioning to neutral. Vulnerability biases this check in favor of the player. Pacified monsters give no XP. Yes, this may let you have a pet Boris for a level or two. (Piety)

*****: Enslave soul. As now. Undeads can perhaps enslave demons?

******: Breathe. Yredelemnul will temporarily (Death's Door-type duration) bring a player (including undead species) to a lifelike state -- granting immunity to Dispel Undead, allowing potions, and rendering Revivification effective. Breathing players can be mutated normally. Works even when confused. Has either a MaxHP cost, or a long (1 XL?) cooldown, in addition to a substantial piety cost.

...

So, that's my idea. Viable (maybe even decent?) in the post-game and no longer relying on existing spell effects.

Thoughts? Underpowered? Overpowered? Just plain dumb? Be your usual honest selves ;)
Last edited by njvack on Monday, 17th December 2012, 13:02, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Changed XL for "Charm" to Invo
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Post Monday, 17th December 2012, 04:13

Re: Yred Revamp Proposal -or- 99 Problems (But a Lich Ain't

Soooooo...how is this better than current Yred in postgame?
Disclaimer: I've never used Yred so I probably don't know what I'm talking about.
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Post Monday, 17th December 2012, 04:37

Re: Yred Revamp Proposal -or- 99 Problems (But a Lich Ain't

Current Yred doesn't give piety for demon or undead kills. Also, Drain Life doesn't work on demons, you can't enslave demons, and gifted servants are pretty outclassed in Pan, Hell, and Tomb.
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Post Monday, 17th December 2012, 04:52

Re: Yred Revamp Proposal -or- 99 Problems (But a Lich Ain't

Ok, so how does your proposal actually make yred better in extended? I guess you get significantly more pain mirror use now?

(ps permalichform in extended is not actually an advantage)

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Post Monday, 17th December 2012, 12:05

Re: Yred Revamp Proposal -or- 99 Problems (But a Lich Ain't

crate wrote:(ps permalichform in extended is not actually an advantage)

Well depends... After clearing Tar, I thing that is actually big advantage. Except shadow fiends, some pan lords and (rare) unborn dd, there is not many monsters able to cast dispel undead. The only thing I would miss is borg revific. And some player ddoor, but I dont use this one much.

On the other hand, I would think twice entering zigg, due to holy levels. Or holypan, if rng will be an ass.
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Post Monday, 17th December 2012, 12:21

Re: Yred Revamp Proposal -or- 99 Problems (But a Lich Ain't

crate wrote:Ok, so how does your proposal actually make yred better in extended?
Would let mummies drink potions. All those potions that were never identified or picked up over the whole game.

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Post Monday, 17th December 2012, 12:30

Re: Yred Revamp Proposal -or- 99 Problems (But a Lich Ain't

Re permalich: how about potions? I would miss those.
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Post Monday, 17th December 2012, 13:10

Re: Yred Revamp Proposal -or- 99 Problems (But a Lich Ain't

crate wrote:(ps permalichform in extended is not actually an advantage)

Unless I'm mistaken (seriously, not rhetorically!), unless you're:

* Facing a monster with Dispel Undead
* In need of drinking a potion (confused / stat loss / gain foo)
* In need of casting Borg

then lichform is a straight buff. In those cases, Breathe. If the response is "Breathe is too expensive" then maybe it should be cheaper.

I'd thought about ditching Breathe in favor of "Yred protects you from Dispel Undead (passive)" but that honestly just sounded less interesting.

Also: Drain Life vs demons, and I kinda think undeads should be able to Enslave Soul on demons as well.

One thing this might change is skill training for casters -- now, you need to think about and manage spell hunger before the postgame, because more blasting stops equaling more chunks. Here, you might leave Spellcasting relatively low and rely on lichform to tackle postgame hunger.
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Post Monday, 17th December 2012, 13:12

Re: Yred Revamp Proposal -or- 99 Problems (But a Lich Ain't

Psieye wrote:All those potions that were never identified or picked up over the whole game.

Yred mummies would not consider potions to be useless. And there's plenty of ?ID even for potion drinkers to scroll-ID them all already.
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Post Monday, 17th December 2012, 13:29

Re: Yred Revamp Proposal -or- 99 Problems (But a Lich Ain't

this sucks
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Post Monday, 17th December 2012, 13:30

Re: Yred Revamp Proposal -or- 99 Problems (But a Lich Ain't

Losing potions is an enormous freaking penalty. Confusion is worse than paralysis, if not for the fact that the most common potion in the game makes it go away, and just before entering Zot is a really terrible spot for a non-casting melee character to lose access to what is likely to be their only source of Haste. Breathe helps with strategic issues like int drain and rot, but the tactical issues are what kill non-drinking characters fastest.

I'm not saying the idea is intrinsically bad, or that it can't be saved, just that you absolutely should not under-weight the drawback of losing potions.
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Post Monday, 17th December 2012, 13:37

Re: Yred Revamp Proposal -or- 99 Problems (But a Lich Ain't

You do not lose potions. The last ability, Breathe, retuns you to a temporary state that allows potion use. It can be used while confused.

Mummies gain potions.
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Post Monday, 17th December 2012, 13:48

Re: Yred Revamp Proposal -or- 99 Problems (But a Lich Ain't

I don't like Breathe: it strikes me as an ability that says "this god allows you to reject his gifts and renounce his mission for a while". As other people point out, losing potions is a big problem, as is being subject to dispel undead. Perhaps you could turn into some other form of undead -- something more like a profane servitor than a lich -- which can drink. Probably should still take damage from Dispel Undead, but maybe Yred would give partial protection based on piety or something.
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Post Monday, 17th December 2012, 14:14

Re: Yred Revamp Proposal -or- 99 Problems (But a Lich Ain't

KoboldLord wrote:Breathe helps with strategic issues like int drain and rot, but the tactical issues are what kill non-drinking characters fastest.

Ah, sorry. Missed this last bit on my phone.

So, perhaps: partial DU resistance, and an ability that (for some piety/MP cost) straight-up allows potion use? A strategic potion use ability had been proposed a long time ago for a permanent form of Necromutation, but I'm convinced: tactical use is far more important.

Thematically, I do see Lastly's point.
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Post Monday, 17th December 2012, 14:46

Re: Yred Revamp Proposal -or- 99 Problems (But a Lich Ain't

yes do come up with a bunch of logic-defying abilities to make up for the passive suck, this appeases the snarkers gallery
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Post Monday, 17th December 2012, 14:48

Re: Yred Revamp Proposal -or- 99 Problems (But a Lich Ain't

ebarrett wrote:yes do come up with a bunch of logic-defying abilities to make up for the passive suck, this appeases the snarkers gallery

Fair enough; thanks for the feedback!
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Post Monday, 17th December 2012, 15:03

Re: Yred Revamp Proposal -or- 99 Problems (But a Lich Ain't

it doesn't have to be a mummy, you know. both ghouls and vampires can drink potions. you could even call it a "lich" (mummies are mummies and necromutation is commonly known as "lich form" but that's not its actual name).

anyway yred's problems are:
1) permanent allies are an abomination interface-wise (zombies are ok because they can't move across levels, slow speed is annoying but you have recall).
2) he doesn't work in extended for no good reason. probably nobody bothers with this because who wants to do extended with yred while (1) persists anyway.

so in short anything that doesn't address (1) (preferably with an executioner's axe) won't do much good.

pet Boris for a level or two


this is really bad
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Post Monday, 17th December 2012, 20:56

Re: Yred Revamp Proposal -or- 99 Problems (But a Lich Ain't

Having a pet Boris is not a problem. Yred worshipers can already have a pet Frederick, Margery, and so on, and Boris doesn't have anything on his spell list that would be game-breaking in the hands of a player minion. With the pet AI as it is, he probably wouldn't even stop shooting the player in the back with Orbs of Destruction.
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Post Monday, 17th December 2012, 21:32

Re: Yred Revamp Proposal -or- 99 Problems (But a Lich Ain't

please focus on the rest of the sentence. and tell me it's not bad design.
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Post Monday, 17th December 2012, 21:34

Re: Yred Revamp Proposal -or- 99 Problems (But a Lich Ain't

njvack wrote:
ebarrett wrote:yes do come up with a bunch of logic-defying abilities to make up for the passive suck, this appeases the snarkers gallery

Fair enough; thanks for the feedback!

You know I am the king of feedback and fairness, it's just that tavern prefers a bolshevik approach.


absolutego wrote:
pet Boris for a level or two

this is really bad

Did you know that (permanently) Enslave Undead was a Thing That Existed long ago in a version far far away? (it was a Kiku ability, and it checked MR - old Kiku would also let you summon a (crap old) reaper, and as far as I remember wouldn't pain brand your weapon. By the way bring back reaperspam wrath, it'd be fun now)
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Post Monday, 17th December 2012, 21:37

Re: Yred Revamp Proposal -or- 99 Problems (But a Lich Ain't

KoboldLord wrote:Having a pet Boris is not a problem. Yred worshipers can already have a pet Frederick, Margery, and so on, and Boris doesn't have anything on his spell list that would be game-breaking in the hands of a player minion. With the pet AI as it is, he probably wouldn't even stop shooting the player in the back with Orbs of Destruction.

Make pet Boris -> Eventually he goes hostile -> You kill him -> "You haven't seen the last of me!" -> [turns pass] -> Make pet Boris again.

Sounds great to me. :lol:
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Post Monday, 17th December 2012, 21:44

Re: Yred Revamp Proposal -or- 99 Problems (But a Lich Ain't

"for a level or two"? Or do you mean a different sentence? Or that petting Boris for a level or two would be bad design? Because I didn't actually imagine gently caressing his desiccated skin, letting his robe fall to the floor...

wait, what?

Remember that the ability to have a pet Boris (who would later turn neutral, not hostile) as the result of a "affects all undead in LOS" effect means you could also potentially have several Greater Mummy pets for a little while. There are places where this might come in handy.

In any case: response to this has ranged from ebarrett's expected response to "meh" so I'm happy to say this was a better idea in my head than on paper. Seriously, thanks for the feedback.
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Post Monday, 17th December 2012, 23:00

Re: Yred Revamp Proposal -or- 99 Problems (But a Lich Ain't

njvack wrote:
crate wrote:(ps permalichform in extended is not actually an advantage)

Unless I'm mistaken (seriously, not rhetorically!), unless you're:

* Facing a monster with Dispel Undead
* In need of drinking a potion (confused / stat loss / gain foo)
* In need of casting Borg

then lichform is a straight buff.

Well unless you are fighting enemies who torment, who use draining attacks (the number of these you care about even when you're not a lich are very small), or is a high-tier mummy, then lichform isn't a buff either. It mostly just does nothing.

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Post Tuesday, 18th December 2012, 00:53

Re: Yred Revamp Proposal -or- 99 Problems (But a Lich Ain't

I think the idea of Yred liking you kill Demons and Constructions is a good idea - he's the God of Undeath which shouldn't directly translate into an association with Hell, Pandemonium, or The Abyss like other Evil Gods do. Anything that isn't Undead should be giving you piety on him.

Personally I think the idea of getting anything similar to a lichform as a God ability for Yred become - Yred seems to imply that he doesn't like Transmutations too much! making it so that the hero has a permanent undead status change would probably would be more thematic then a buff as well and that would really add anything toward the game. However, I think dumbing it down from undead status to undead attributes might be an approach to look into. What I mean by this is change your approach from 'turning undead' and then having to use abilities that bring you 'closer to lifelike' and instead going for a 'becoming undead' approach where you gradually take on undead characteristics but never actually become undead yourself and never have to worry about Dispel Undead, losing the ability to quaff potions, and other nerfs from your current idea.
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Post Tuesday, 18th December 2012, 01:09

Re: Yred Revamp Proposal -or- 99 Problems (But a Lich Ain't

...
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Post Tuesday, 18th December 2012, 04:11

Re: Yred Revamp Proposal -or- 99 Problems (But a Lich Ain't

I think these changes sound pretty cool, here are my two cents:

njvack wrote:Yred remains the God of Undead Supremacy. In fact, in following Yred, players ultimately choose undeath over life.

Yes, the big gimmick here is that when a living player begins worshipping Yred, the game starts tracking (perhaps) XP-since-joining scaled by XL. When that crosses a threshold, you become a lich (or a shade, if you don't want to call it lichform). I imagine that if you joined at the Temple and killed dudes, you'd change around the time you were going to enter Zot. Once they're ready to change, players would get it as an ability for, say, 1000 turns (with increasingly urgent warnings) so the don't just get changed in the middle of a fight with a necromancer or something. Players who ignore the warnings will be forcibly changed.

Changed players are mechanically equivalent (or at least very similar) to Necromutated players.


What if instead of doing this to the player suddenly, it was a function of piety? You could use the shifting states of a vampire as the basis for the effect, thirsty = 1 star, very thirsty = 3 stars, near starving = 5 stars, and at 6 stars you can pray at an altar to permanently become completely undead (with your breathe ability for emergencies...but if you have to be at 6 stars piety to do it you'd better stay in Yred's favor...)

njvack wrote:****: Drain Life. Largely as now. For undeads, will work (albeit less effectively) against demonic and holy monsters. (Piety)


Maybe draining life from demons (while undead) could restore mp instead of hp? Or would that ruin it's function as an ability that's meant to help with hp regen issues in demonic branches?
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Post Tuesday, 18th December 2012, 04:29

Re: Yred Revamp Proposal -or- 99 Problems (But a Lich Ain't

Blyxx wrote:Maybe draining life from demons (while undead) could restore mp instead of hp? Or would that ruin it's function as an ability that's meant to help with hp regen issues in demonic branches?

Or how about draining the demons' magical ability (that could mean preventing them from casting spells for a while, like anti-magic) to restore the player's HP? The thematic reasoning could be that demons get their power by sucking living beings' life force.
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Post Tuesday, 18th December 2012, 07:31

Re: Yred Revamp Proposal -or- 99 Problems (But a Lich Ain't

While the necromutation sounds a bit harsh (because the ability that does let you get out of it is expensive and takes a valuable turn to use), everything else sounds somewhat better than currently.
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Post Tuesday, 18th December 2012, 12:53

Re: Yred Revamp Proposal -or- 99 Problems (But a Lich Ain't

Davion Fuxa wrote:I think the idea of Yred liking you kill Demons and Constructions is a good idea

Well... I can definitely see why things are as they are now. Yred has no particular reason to care about the conflict between the living (eg, most player characters) and demons. And as designed now, Yred's abilities wouldn't be much use in Hell, Pan, or Tomb; there's nothing to enslave and the gifts are outmatched by higher-tier demons.

So, my basic thought was "Yred would care about the conflict of an undead avatar and the demonic world." Hence, player characters become undead and in exchange, Yred grants powers that help mitigate the challenges of undead existence.

So, that's where I was coming from.

It may also be intentional that Yred is a god to abandon after the living branches, but that will alway feel a little strange to me.
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Post Tuesday, 18th December 2012, 13:46

Re: Yred Revamp Proposal -or- 99 Problems (But a Lich Ain't

crate wrote:Well unless you are fighting enemies who torment, who use draining attacks (the number of these you care about even when you're not a lich are very small), or is a high-tier mummy, then lichform isn't a buff either. It mostly just does nothing.

It also gives a nice AC and MR bonus, which are almost always useful, and situationally useful rC, rP and extra strength. Actually pretty good IMO, and definitely more than "mostly nothing".
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Post Tuesday, 18th December 2012, 15:42

Re: Yred Revamp Proposal -or- 99 Problems (But a Lich Ain't

OK. I'm actually curious: is necromutation that bad? Let's say it still let you drink potions at will, did not give dispel undead vulnerability, allowed borg and ddoor, and was a L1, pure necro spell. Would it still be shitty?

What I'm getting at is: are there ways to mitigate the downsides of being undead, or is it just a very bad way to be, because... reasons?
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Post Tuesday, 18th December 2012, 16:57

Re: Yred Revamp Proposal -or- 99 Problems (But a Lich Ain't

njvack wrote:OK. I'm actually curious: is necromutation that bad? Let's say it still let you drink potions at will, did not give dispel undead vulnerability, allowed borg and ddoor, and was a L1, pure necro spell. Would it still be shitty?

What I'm getting at is: are there ways to mitigate the downsides of being undead, or is it just a very bad way to be, because... reasons?


To mention what I said again - just take an approach of picking up some Undead Attributes (or near to those attributes) rather then a permanent change. IE, Yred Worshipers get closer and closer to Undead status but they never become fully Undead in the process - so the character is still alive and will ignore Dispel Undead, the inability to use spells that undead can't use, or the inability to quaff potions.

Another idea though might be to instead think of change your 'lichform' idea to a 'ghoulform' one. Ghouls work a lot differently then the other Undeads and they tend to do better as the game progresses, and Yred is a more Melee God then a caster God (Kiku being the Undead Caster God).
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Post Tuesday, 18th December 2012, 18:07

Re: Yred Revamp Proposal -or- 99 Problems (But a Lich Ain't

njvack wrote:OK. I'm actually curious: is necromutation that bad? Let's say it still let you drink potions at will, did not give dispel undead vulnerability, allowed borg and ddoor, and was a L1, pure necro spell. Would it still be shitty?

What I'm getting at is: are there ways to mitigate the downsides of being undead, or is it just a very bad way to be, because... reasons?


Necromutation shares the same issue as all the other Foo Form spells, in that unlike nearly every other buff in the game they're highly situational. Sometimes they're good, but if you use them at the wrong time they're very bad. Don't charge a dragon in Ice Form and so forth. While one could argue that all buffs should be like this, at the moment the issue pretty much only afflicts transmutations.

Then, on top of the situational nature of the spell that you would only sometimes use even if you had it, look at the ridiculously high costs that have been attached to it. Eight spell levels, requiring high levels of training, plus probably a ring slot for wizardry, in two separate magic skills that have absolutely no synergy between them before that point. No necromancer or Kiku worshiper is likely to bother picking up transmutations at all, and no transmuter is likely to go higher on the necromancy tree than Regeneration, which can be picked up on charms alone. The eight spell slots required will crowd out something more useful, and if you ever end up miscasting Necromutation you are likely to suffer the miscast effects with the greatest strategic severity in the game.

Why would you pick up Necromutation if you could instead pick up Haste *and* Phase Shift with the same xp? Once you have those, why would you pick up Necromutation next if you have fighting, armour, dodging, stealth, or evocations still waiting for your attention? If you have all those high enough that you have no reason to want more, why haven't you taken your fifteen Runes and won yet?

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Post Tuesday, 18th December 2012, 18:12

Re: Yred Revamp Proposal -or- 99 Problems (But a Lich Ain't

njvack wrote:OK. I'm actually curious: is necromutation that bad? Let's say it still let you drink potions at will, did not give dispel undead vulnerability, allowed borg and ddoor, and was a L1, pure necro spell. Would it still be shitty?

What I'm getting at is: are there ways to mitigate the downsides of being undead, or is it just a very bad way to be, because... reasons?


I think the main reason it's bad is because you can't use borg, which is an enormous disadvantage. Inability to use DDoor, Regen, Sublimation, and potions are each also large disadvantages, and the vulnerabilities (to dispel undead, cleansing flame, etc) are on top of that. Necromutation does bring some advantages to the table, but not a lot - the rP, rC, MR, and AC are all fairly miniscule, torment immunity is the only major benefit, and the hungerlessness is useful to some characters I suppose.
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Post Tuesday, 18th December 2012, 18:57

Re: Yred Revamp Proposal -or- 99 Problems (But a Lich Ain't

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Post Wednesday, 19th December 2012, 00:39

Re: Yred Revamp Proposal -or- 99 Problems (But a Lich Ain't

KoboldLord wrote:Why would you pick up Necromutation if you could instead pick up Haste *and* Phase Shift with the same xp? Once you have those, why would you pick up Necromutation next if you have fighting, armour, dodging, stealth, or evocations still waiting for your attention?
I find fighting, armour, dodging and stealth (and sometimes evocations) can all be at medium levels if you adopt a MuSu approach with perma-necromutation. It adds even more burden to the startup conditions (the need for superlative summoning skill) but at least summoning does have synergy with necormancy through Haunt. In an attempt to make up some kind of synergy between transmutations and necromancy, I once had a Dr learn dragon form without any UC for the sole purpose of using sub. blood on my expanded HP for haunt spam. It wasn't all that effective, but it motivated me to get transmutations up and running.

With both summon horrible things (with double sust.Ab) and necromutation online (with a staff of wizardy), The only non-lord that I had to fear in the entirity of Hell/Pan was hellions (smite hellfire). Everything else just could not attack me at range 7~8 with 30+ aboms and simulacra getting in the way. Dispel Undead is not smite targetted. The inability to cast regen is irrelevant if you never take damage (except to smite).

Necromutation is a spell for lategame summoner transitions. Ridiculously expensive to get online but in the long run it saves you having to buy the last several levels of defense skills.

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Post Wednesday, 19th December 2012, 01:27

Re: Yred Revamp Proposal -or- 99 Problems (But a Lich Ain't

The main reason necromutation is bad is you can't use potions. Why do you think mu is the worst race in the game? You are far from guaranteed to get a wand of hasting or wand of heal wounds even in a 15-rune game (I've done a few without /hw), and then if you use necromutation on top of that you have literally no way to heal yourself (except Makhleb heal-on-kills or Jiyva heal-on-slurps, I guess, but that's hardly on-demand; or decks, but you often won't have an elixir or alchemist card either)--potions are blocked, you don't have a wand, you can't have Ely healing, you can't borg. You also might be blocked from your 0-mp-cost source of haste (or only source of haste, if we're talking a situation where you're a mummy or otherwise don't have the spell). You also lose the three best ways to regain lots of MP from 0: ambrosia, potions of magic, and self-sublimation.

The MR boost is largely canceled by the fact that if you do get confused--one of the main things you're trying to block with MR--you die. So you can't afford to risk using the MR boost against anything with confuse if the MR boost is meaningful, unless you have clarity (but then you already can't get confused...).

The bonus AC is decent but it's less than you get from ozo's armour in most cases. Not needing to eat is almost entirely meaningless unless you're with Ely, but then you can't use necromutation; or Sif (in which case it's decent). Mutation immunity is handy but I can count on one hand the number of games I've had where that would have really mattered. The str bonus is not good for carrying capacity/armour wearing (you might have to end necromutation for various reasons, and you can't really afford to be burdened/get bigger spellcasting penalties if one of those situations pops up) and doesn't do much for your melee.

So that leaves torment immunity, which is definitely powerful, but there are other ways to deal with torment, and one of them is a level 7 spell that's in the same book that has necromutation and is good against other things too (Borg). The rC is decent but you don't see people using ice form in extended for the rC very often; rPois is even less valuable because you get all of it that you need from a single ring (or from a cloak, if you don't have better egos, or from a shield, etc.). There are characters where I would learn necromutation but they are definitely rare and even then you definitely want to be able to cancel it (the only game I can remember learning it recently was my ogtm of chei, and I used borg at least four times that game).
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Post Wednesday, 19th December 2012, 03:23

Re: Yred Revamp Proposal -or- 99 Problems (But a Lich Ain't

crate wrote:The main reason necromutation is bad is you can't use potions. Why do you think mu is the worst race in the game?


Well, Mu also doesn't possess particularly good aptitudes or stats and is barred from four strong gods, in addition to starting with rF- which can make orc packs and lindwurms a little "sporty" unless the floor god is kind. Potions are strong but mummies have a whole bunch of other strikes, too.

But back on point: if this proposal had an "absorb potion" ability that cost piety, usable while confused, would that make it non-awful?

KoboldLord wrote:Necromutation shares the same issue as all the other Foo Form spells, in that unlike nearly every other buff in the game they're highly situational.

<helpful analysis snipped>

Yeah, that's exactly what I thought about Necromut in general -- it's high-level in two non-synergistic schools. Maybe you'd learn it as a Tm fighter with heavy Necro backup or something, though Blade Hands is probably still just a better idea unless you're also doing big ol' conjurations but if that's the case you already have all the XP ever so you could do whatever anyhow.

I was mostly wondering if "worst spell in the game" was for real or hyperbole.
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Post Wednesday, 19th December 2012, 03:35

Re: Yred Revamp Proposal -or- 99 Problems (But a Lich Ain't

njvack wrote:But back on point: if this proposal had an "absorb potion" ability that cost piety, usable while confused, would that make it non-awful?


I feel like if you keep having to stack up new abilities and exceptions in order to make an idea viable you may need to reconsider the original idea.

Some temporary form ability, distinguished from Necromutation in some way but still themed around being a master of death and undeath, might be better than simply permanent lichform.

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Post Wednesday, 19th December 2012, 05:41

Re: Yred Revamp Proposal -or- 99 Problems (But a Lich Ain't

SPeak for yourselves. I consider Necromutation+Sif Muna+Firestorm/Summon Dragon the strongest combo this game has for a caster. . . and quite possibly period.

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Post Wednesday, 19th December 2012, 05:42

Re: Yred Revamp Proposal -or- 99 Problems (But a Lich Ain't

More on-topic, I actually *really* like the idea of a God that gets uber-excited every time you kill a Pan Lord and has some distinctive interaction as a result. But honestly? That seems more of a TSO thing to do than anything else.

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Post Wednesday, 19th December 2012, 14:23

Re: Yred Revamp Proposal -or- 99 Problems (But a Lich Ain't

nicolae wrote:I feel like if you keep having to stack up new abilities and exceptions in order to make an idea viable you may need to reconsider the original idea.

Some temporary form ability, distinguished from Necromutation in some way but still themed around being a master of death and undeath, might be better than simply permanent lichform.

Sigh.

I'm actively trying not to stack up new abilities and exceptions (in this case, absorb potion would almost certainly replace Breathe, and kick in at 3-4 stars) to make the idea viable. I'm not married to this idea. I am not even trying to vigorously defend it.

What I am trying to do is find out where expert players find it mechanically and thematically deficient. My gut feeling is that generally "this sucks" responses to ideas mean one or more of:

* It's underpowered
* It's overpowered
* It would reward scumming
* It hasn't been thought through well or expressed clearly
* (rarely) It doesn't fit thematically with Crawl

... and I think the "this would be like necromut except EVEN WORSE" comments translate to "necromutation is underpowered, the only good thing about it is that it ends" -- but I'm not sure, because I need to guess. So I'm literally asking "if this were more powerful, would it suck less or is it scummy or unthematic or unclear or was it actually OP to begin with?"

Again: I'm not saying this idea is good -- only that it sounded good to me. That's why I asked for feedback. However: I am trying to be thoughtful about this, because someday I am going to have another idea and I would like the next one to be better.
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Post Wednesday, 19th December 2012, 14:33

Re: Yred Revamp Proposal -or- 99 Problems (But a Lich Ain't

Well being forced to play a mummy when you didn't select mummy kind of sucks imo
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Post Wednesday, 19th December 2012, 14:48

Re: Yred Revamp Proposal -or- 99 Problems (But a Lich Ain't

crate wrote:Well being forced to play a mummy when you didn't select mummy kind of sucks imo


OK, so I expressed this unclearly.

Seriously: if this is something that kicks in late-game, leaves your aptitudes (and other racial tricks) unchanged, doesn't give rF-, and (by some mechanism) allows potion use, how is it even remotely similar to playing a mummy?
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Post Wednesday, 19th December 2012, 15:14

Re: Yred Revamp Proposal -or- 99 Problems (But a Lich Ain't

minmay wrote:I didn't look at the entire list of spells but I spend a couple minutes trying to think of a less useful spell that still exists, and I couldn't.


Condensation Shield? Bolt of Draining? Non-drac Dragon Form? Olgreb's? Cigotuvi's Degeneration? (also tmut/necro!)

Well, since according to you it does nothing, why bother implementing it?


Spell hunger and torment, while manageable, do exist in the postgame? Draining life/energy from demons would be useful maybe? Enslaving Ignacio or Ereshkigal could be neat?
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Post Wednesday, 19th December 2012, 15:33

Re: Yred Revamp Proposal -or- 99 Problems (But a Lich Ain't

Why not just offer Yredites slower metabolism and torment resistance then?
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Post Wednesday, 19th December 2012, 15:50

Re: Yred Revamp Proposal -or- 99 Problems (But a Lich Ain't

slowmeta doesn't affect spell hunger, kiku does rTorment. And thematically: why would yred care about a battle between the living and demons?

The "you take on a bunch of undead attributes over time" approach is also perfectly viable -- my main thought is that mechanically, it winds up looking a lot like this proposal: essentially a buffed form of necromutation. But that might be a better way to cast it, to avoid the "oh noes its lichform" worries.
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Post Wednesday, 19th December 2012, 16:37

Re: Yred Revamp Proposal -or- 99 Problems (But a Lich Ain't

njvack wrote:slowmeta doesn't affect spell hunger


Yred comes more off as an Undead Melee Back Up God, so this would fit well with him. Maybe add in a couple of other nice Melee centered perks like say Resist Poison, perhaps resistance to Draining, throw in Resist Rotting, and you give him several 'weak on their own benefits' but perhaps something that might match up with some of the other powerful passive abilities given by Gods, along with his already powerful abilities.
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