Do I overestimate statue form?


Ask fellow adventurers how to stay alive in the deep, dark, dangerous dungeon below, or share your own accumulated wisdom.

Spider Stomper

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Post Monday, 19th November 2012, 18:34

Do I overestimate statue form?

When you look at my last winning games you'll notice that many of my chars, no matter if DsMo, DrNe, TrMo, DsGl or TrSt went for statue form. There are several reasons for this:

  • I often play trolls who are blessed with a to-hit and to-dam bonus of their claws but are weak in defense. This is overcome by >= 40 AC in statue form + stoneskin
  • statue form is so strong in offense that gloorx or whoever won't survive much longer than something like 6,7,8 turns
  • I usually go for 15 runes. Torment is one of the biggest threats in pan/tomb/hell even if you worship TSO, and statue form greatly helps here
  • when I play a DsGl and start with axes ("ok, something else this time") I get sharp fingernails mutation when reaching XL 2 and switch to UC immediately :-)
Alright, I know statue form is strong. But you need something like tMut 12 and earth magic 16, and for a troll it means spending a lot of XP (tMut apt -3, earth magic apt -1). And it'll force you to learn haste to compensate for being slow (-4 apt in charms, ouch) although haste is always useful ofc.

Recently my TrSt of Ash had so many problems in Tar that I decided to visit pan a second time just for getting the statue form spell, look at my notes at 66536 etc.

Alright, there are several ways to handle things like torment. One of the easiest ways seems to be a caster with necromut but I prefer fighters/hybrids. So Kiku's torment protection is another choice; I also won a MDFi with exec. axe enjoying TSO in the extended. Vampires might be another idea.

After all I think statue form is great for fighters/hybrids. Necromutation is much weaker concerning UC unless you worship Chei.

So the question is: is statue form really that strong or do I only think so because I'm used to it?

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Post Monday, 19th November 2012, 18:48

Re: Do I overestimate statue form?

Most level 6 spells are great in one way or another. It's expensive, but if you're already investing in the schools for other spells, the marginal cost is reduced. I think it's an elegant spell in that it provides benefits in a number of ways along with a serious but manageable drawback.

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Post Monday, 19th November 2012, 20:28

Re: Do I overestimate statue form?

I personally think statue form is actually not very good for most characters.

For transmuter I will basically never learn it unless I am doing Tomb, since it's just not worth the xp. Blade hands does pretty comparable damage per aut and has similarly good/better defenses for most tms (since you have much more EV) and allows you dramatically more freedom to move. I also use ice form a lot, which has pretty good defenses with Ozo's armour and doesn't hinder spellcasting.

The other characters where it is sometimes good is earth elementalists, where it's good if you're hitting with a weapon where your damage is not primarily coming from an additive brand.

I don't do extended very often but I've done all three of blade hands melee, UC statue form melee (and also non-UC statue form I think), and Necromutation melee, and honestly I think blade hands is as good as statue form in extended outside of Tomb (or vs Gloorx I guess, because statue can stand in miasma). Torment is really not a very big threat outside of tomb.

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Post Monday, 19th November 2012, 20:45

Re: Do I overestimate statue form?

I have won 24 allruners online (and one 14-runer), and only one used statue form in extended... during some easy levels in pan, mostly to show off old statue form unarmed damage. There are generally better, safer ways to deal with things than being permaslowed and melding away all your gear, though some characters obviously do benefit from the good perks.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 20th November 2012, 23:11

Re: Do I overestimate statue form?

I am a fellow statue form lover, and should probably be moving away from it, although I've been trying octopodes lately and they just cry out for statue form, so I'd still use it there. I think I tend to use it for all my melee extended games because I've never used another form of torment resistance - I'm thinking TSO or kiku's here. I have used necromutation (one caster and one melee) but it's somewhat underwhelming on melee and it's much more of an investment.

I'm crazy enough to like shields, so that's one of the main perks of statue form vs blade hands to me. I see statue form as building a very fault tolerant character, which a lot of the pros no longer do because they have a much lower error rate than the rest of us. I'm quite good at this game, but there are still plenty of people who are much, much better at it. I'm not ready to give up my hard to die characters and build glass cannons because I still make mistakes. I don't see a melee character being able to deal with a few torment sources that are stuck behind meat shields too easily. Even with a ranged weapon backup or abjuration (a lot of torment is summoned fiends, but obviously not all), I'd rather lower the damage ahead of time rather than take a full damage torment even once. I really should experiment with a TSO character at some point, though.

Spider Stomper

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Post Wednesday, 21st November 2012, 00:01

Thank you for your answers, there's much variety! I just took some quotes:

BlackSheep wrote:I think it's an elegant spell in that it provides benefits in a number of ways along with a serious but manageable drawback.

crate wrote:I personally think statue form is actually not very good for most characters.

ebarrett wrote:There are generally better, safer ways to deal with things

tasonir wrote:I am a fellow statue form lover

So obviously I'm quite right not to be sure about it. :-)

Actually fishi looks for a troll speedrun and tries several classes. Yesterday he had a promising build, his TrFi looked for resistances and high AC (yes, GDA is double-edged) but got lots of problems in tomb.

I told him about my statue trolls and now he started a TrWz. Let's wait what will happen.

I actually started a TrGl of Oka looking for some but not too much int. If he is able to switch to TSO he'll have the same torment protection as usual fighter builds like e.g. MiFi Oka -> TSO.

Although SH is less important than AC or EV I feel more comfortable to have at least one defense. The TrGl is now at XL 16 - well, let's see how he's going on.
Last edited by Turgon on Wednesday, 21st November 2012, 02:35, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Wednesday, 21st November 2012, 01:40

Re: Do I overestimate statue form?

BlackSheep wrote: along with a serious but manageable drawback.


BlackSheep wrote:I think it's an elegant spell in that it provides benefits in a number of ways


That's not quite perfect praise, they note it has a major drawback.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Wednesday, 21st November 2012, 02:31

Re: Do I overestimate statue form?

Yeah, you can go ahead and refer to me as "he".

Spider Stomper

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Post Wednesday, 21st November 2012, 02:46

Alright, quoted the whole sentence in the upper post.

So after all there are some sceptical answers. It looks like the question Do I overestimate statue form? was justified.

I'd like to mention that I usually combined statue form/stoneskin with haste but of course it's a loss of action speed compared to a hasted character.

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Post Wednesday, 21st November 2012, 03:55

Re: Do I overestimate statue form?

Some might disagree, but I generally feel maxed UC without a form is better for most characters than Statue Form is. Especially on characters with lower strength and obviously on characters who have low Earth/Transmutation but average Charms. I would much rather get Death's Door and Borgnjor's Revivification in addition to Haste with a 27 UC character than I would Statue Form.

I've played a few formless UC characters in extended and I've never really wanted a form except maybe Blade Hands. All have their distinct advantages and disadvantages to formless UC but I feel Blade Hands is the form with the most reasonable cost (Loss of Shield, low amount of equipment melded, casting penalty when I want to do anything BUT cast).
I've seen advice to the contrary on this board before, but formless UC is an absolute powerhouse.
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Post Wednesday, 21st November 2012, 17:50

Re: Do I overestimate statue form?

When you need to stand in one spot and melee tank, Statue Form is pretty good. Unfortunately depending on the items you find you will probably have to meld some +Dam, +Int, rF, rC, or other awesome things to do it, so it's not as helpful as it appears on paper. +30% HP, superb AC, and halved torment is often worth the melding, but generally not by a large margin...which is why I generally don't find it worth the XP you could be spending elsewhere. But I have very little experience using Statue Form (I usually play conjurers or archers) so take my advice with a grain of salt.

BlackSheep wrote:Yeah, you can go ahead and refer to me as "he".

According to the 2009 survey, any given Crawl player is 94% likely to be (or in other-words, is almost certainly) male. So we often assume usage of "he".

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Post Wednesday, 21st November 2012, 19:30

some12fat2move wrote:When you need to stand in one spot and melee tank, Statue Form is pretty good.

Hey, one pro for statue form again. :-)

some12fat2move wrote:Unfortunately depending on the items you find you will probably have to meld some +Dam, +Int, rF, rC, or other awesome things to do it, so it's not as helpful as it appears on paper.

Maybe I didn't point it out - this topic is weighted towards characters I actually play: trolls. Trolls can't wear gloves or boots (which will meld away in statue form). So concerning my recent wins only +7 swamp DA or +5 mottled DA melded away and that's not much.

If I understand the other posts correctly it's the combination of invested XP (lots for a troll) and the loss of speed that isn't welcome.

some12fat2move wrote:which is why I generally don't find it worth the XP you could be spending elsewhere.

Yes.

My TrGl is XL 19 now, survived a friendly invitation to the abyss (thanks, ogre mage) and got the abyssal as his first rune in the game, quite unusual. I go for a 15-runer without statue form this time, so the spared XP can be put e.g. into armour, charms and maybe tLoc. Let's see what'll happen.

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Post Wednesday, 21st November 2012, 21:50

minmay wrote: I liked old statue form

Does this mean statue form was different in earlier versions? If so, which were the features?

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Post Friday, 23rd November 2012, 19:44

Thanks for the old statue form features.

So compared with the actual values this means e.g.
  • HP boost: +30% (old: +50%)
  • UC base damage: UC + 3 + str/3 (old: UC +12 +str(?))
UC base damage depending on str instead of str/3 obviously was a boon for trolls!

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Post Friday, 23rd November 2012, 20:11

Abominae wrote:Some might disagree, but I generally feel maxed UC without a form is better for most characters than Statue Form is.
[...]
I've seen advice to the contrary on this board before, but formless UC is an absolute powerhouse.

Thanks for your answer.

I failed to prove this with my DsMo. It was a near-death experience with 2 HP and I made a topic in which I wrote I was disappointed at the strength of pure UC.

There were different opinions:
  • "You would have been much better served to sink a little more xp into transmutations, plus some into earth magic. With the AC you have stacked up from your mutations, Statue Form would make your character into a fairly sturdy tank." (KoboldLord)
  • "It's true that level 27 UC is slightly worse against demons than a very good holy weapon, but still, punching stuff without transmutations is still very strong." (mikee)
  • "Blade hands Turgon, just blade hands." (Impy)
The answer of mikee comes close to what you think, Abominae, and KoboldLord's point of view comes close to my experience.

Well, there are different opinions about forms and UC. Let's look at my TrGl who's XL 21 actually. As he acquired a +10 pearl DA he's supposed to fight with his claws without using statue form (although roxanne dropped a book with it). His claws provide some slaying bonus and TSO's angels may help in the endgame too.
Last edited by Turgon on Wednesday, 5th December 2012, 10:23, edited 2 times in total.

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Post Friday, 23rd November 2012, 20:35

Re:

Turgon wrote:
Well, there are different opinions about forms and UC. Let's look at my TrGl who's XL 21 actually. As he acquired a +10 pearl DA he's supposed to fight with his claws without using statue form (although roxanne dropped a book with it). His claws provide some slaying bonus and TSO's angels may help in the endgame too.


For reference, this is by far the strongest formless UC character I've made: viewtopic.php?f=12&t=5017&p=67004&hilit=jiyva#p67004

It's probably an extreme example due to Monstrous set, but it's an example of a character I definitely wouldn't use a form on. To clarify though, I'm not trying to argue that formless UC is the best for all characters, but it's definitely comparable for many and actually better on a few.
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Post Friday, 23rd November 2012, 21:32

Re: Do I overestimate statue form?

I can't really see how Blade Hands wouldn't be anything but a nice buff to that character, I really can't - you can't even wear gloves due to Claws 3, and your 23/20 Str/Dex easily make it past the bonus the claws give you.
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  Code:
!lg * won !DD-- min=turns -log
<Sequell> 20749. Bloax, XL24 VSTm, T:13320: http://crawl.lantea.net/crawl/morgue/Bloax/morgue-Bloax-20140907-000920.txt

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Post Friday, 23rd November 2012, 22:37

Re: Do I overestimate statue form?

Well, earning 8 levels of transmutations (1950 xp) to cast it would mean having 19 invocations instead of 20, since that last level cost 1650 xp. Or some other sacrifice along that line. And he'd lose use of the shield he invested in.

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Post Saturday, 24th November 2012, 19:49

This topic gets a mixture between
  • the initial question,
  • the question about UC without forms
  • and a CiP about my TrGl who does exactly this: fighting with claws without forms (up to now...)
Well, the TrGl is at XL 24 and fine with his claws. The way he fetched his runes is somewhat unusual: abyssal as 1st rune and silver as 2nd.

After I luckily acquired a +10 pearl DA I stopped wielding my shield. With suddenly sufficient AC I preferred two-handed fighting.

Got problems in V:8 when a lich summoned two shadow fiends. First emergency teleport resulted in new problems, second emergency teleport was alright. Some modification in strategy: found a randart large shield with high magic resist, so it's one-handed fighting again.

Afterwards I looked at the shops in O:4 and the loot in E:3. Only found two food shops but they are welcome - a troll will burn lots of food in tomb.

Found Book of Changes and Book of Transfigurations but continued with my claws. As I didn't put any XP into tMut/earth I was able to get charms 16 now. When I use heroism (cancelling shield penalty) I can cast haste without any problems. Funnily, I got three wands of hasting too!

So next will be two (or three) runes of the lair's subbranches. Here's some of the actual standing:

  Code:
 Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.11.0-9-gb634444 (webtiles) character file.

Turgon the Wrestler (Troll Gladiator)              Turns: 41439, Time: 10:05:59

HP 236/236 (237) AC 29     Str 30      XL: 24   Next: 60%
MP  29/29        EV  8     Int 10      God: Okawaru [*****.]
Gold 3046        SH 42     Dex 12      Spells:  8 memorised,  8 levels left

Res.Fire  : + . .   See Invis. : +     - Unarmed
Res.Cold  : + . .   Warding    : .   K - +10 pearl dragon armour of Dim Light {rN+
Life Prot.: + + .   Conserve   : +   y - +3 large shield of Reomid {+Blink rN+ MR,
Res.Poison: .       Res.Corr.  : .   a - +0 wizard hat of Crawling {rF+ rC+, !d}
Res.Elec. : .       Clarity    : .   (no cloak)
Sust.Abil.: + .     Spirit.Shd : .   (gloves unavailable)
Res.Mut.  : .       Stasis     : .   (boots unavailable)
Res.Rott. : .       Ctrl.Telep.: x   C - amulet of conservation {!d}
Gourmand  : +       Levitation : .   w - ring of wizardry {!d}
                    Ctrl.Flight: .   i - ring of Skipt {SustAb +Inv SInv, !d}

@: extremely resistant to hostile enchantments, extremely unstealthy
A: unfitting armour, claws 3, fast metabolism 3, gourmand, regeneration 2,
saprovore 2, tough skin 2, AC +1
a: Heroism, Finesse, Renounce Religion, Evoke Blink, Evoke Invisibility
}: 2/15 runes: silver, abyssal


You are on level 3 of the Elven Halls.
You worship Okawaru.
Okawaru is extremely pleased with you.
You are completely stuffed.

You have visited 7 branches of the dungeon, and seen 52 of its levels.
You have visited the Abyss 1 time.
You have also visited: Labyrinth and Ice Cave.

You have collected 5295 gold pieces.
You have spent 2269 gold pieces at shops.


Innate Abilities, Weirdness & Mutations

You are too large for most types of armour.
You have claws for hands.
Your metabolism is lightning-fast.
You like to eat raw meat.
You heal very quickly.
You can eat rotten meat.
You are covered in fur (AC +1).
You have very tough skin (AC +2).


   Skills:
 - Level 13.0 Fighting
 - Level 4.1 Throwing
 - Level 14.0 Armour
 - Level 6.1 Dodging
 - Level 11.1 Shields
 - Level 8.0 Traps & Doors
 - Level 22.0 Unarmed Combat
 - Level 6.0 Spellcasting
 - Level 16.1 Charms
 + Level 7.0 Translocations
 - Level 2.1 Air Magic
 - Level 7.0 Invocations
 - Level 5.0 Evocations


You have 8 spell levels left.
You know the following spells:

 Your Spells                  Type             Power        Failure   Level  Hunger
a - Control Teleport     Chrm/Tloc    #####.....    7%          4    ####...
b - Blink                        Tloc              N/A                 7%          2    ##.....
f - Flight                        Chrm/Air      ####......     5%          3    ###....
h - Haste                       Chrm            ######...  16%          6    #######
i - See Invisible             Chrm            ######....   1%          4    ####...
n - Insulation                Chrm/Air      ####......     19%         4    ####...
r - Repel Missiles         Chrm/Air      ####......      3%          2    ##.....
w - Swiftness                Chrm/Air      ####......      3%          2    ##.....

Last edited by Turgon on Saturday, 24th November 2012, 22:58, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Saturday, 24th November 2012, 22:17

Re: Do I overestimate statue form?

Well first of all, shields decrease your unarmed attack speed - for all I remember.

And second, we're back to the Two-handers vs. Shields argumentations. Except in this case you'd gain both superior damage and attack speed if you get blade hands castable. (Not that big of a feat.)

Of course you'd lose your shield once you cast it, but if you really need to kill stuff - you're probably better off blade hands-ing.

Though Okawaru probably negates that attack penalty with Finesse, now that I think about it. The damage would still be higher with blade hands, though.
take it easy
  Code:
!lg * won !DD-- min=turns -log
<Sequell> 20749. Bloax, XL24 VSTm, T:13320: http://crawl.lantea.net/crawl/morgue/Bloax/morgue-Bloax-20140907-000920.txt

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Post Saturday, 24th November 2012, 23:29

Thanks for your post, you're not the only one who points out the advantage of blade hands.

Bloax wrote:Well first of all, shields decrease your unarmed attack speed - for all I remember.

Afaik, yes.

And second, we're back to the Two-handers vs. Shields argumentations. Except in this case you'd gain both superior damage and attack speed if you get blade hands castable. (Not that big of a feat.)

Yes.

Of course you'd lose your shield once you cast it, [...]

And that's a point. Or better, there are two points:
  • casting blade hands means I have to learn tMut. A troll has lousy aptitudes, in a straightforward game (such as a game with 80 - 90 k turns) he can only choose a few skills. Obviously charms is a very important one - actually I think about learning tLoc (-> cBlink)
  • melding the shield means losing a lot MR. Going around with low MR may lead to another friendly invitation for abyss walking e.g.

*******

Though Okawaru probably negates that attack penalty with Finesse, now that I think about it. The damage would still be higher with blade hands, though.

Yes.

You gave lots of arguments for blade hands, my argument is first of all the high MR of the large shield. Crawl is a very complex game. :-)
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Post Saturday, 24th November 2012, 23:59

Re: Do I overestimate statue form?

If you need the MR, then don't cast it. It's as simple as that. Or just end the transmutation, because unlike with twohanders - ending a transmutation doesn't take eight(?) turns.
Much unlike unwielding a two-hander and equipping a large shield.

And if you're going Tomb, I really, really doubt you don't have experience to spare to get blade hands.
Of course your int is crap, but getting a level 5 spell castable is a whole other story than a level 6 or 7.
take it easy
  Code:
!lg * won !DD-- min=turns -log
<Sequell> 20749. Bloax, XL24 VSTm, T:13320: http://crawl.lantea.net/crawl/morgue/Bloax/morgue-Bloax-20140907-000920.txt

Did you know that I like ruining crawl every now and then? Go check it out.

For this message the author Bloax has received thanks:
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Post Monday, 26th November 2012, 14:16

Bloax wrote:If you need the MR, then don't cast it. It's as simple as that. Or just end the transmutation, because unlike with twohanders - ending a transmutation doesn't take eight(?) turns.

Yes, that's a point. You are flexible and can either

  • fight with claws, wield a shield and cast spells, throw rocks etc or
  • increase damage with blade hands

*******

Bloax wrote:And if you're going Tomb, I really, really doubt you don't have experience to spare to get blade hands.

As I had spell slots free I learned blade hands, with tMut 3 it's at 100% fail at the moment. Remember I wear a pearl DA which impedes casting.

After switching to TSO I think there are two other skills which are more important now: UC (22 was enough with Oka's heroism but now I should max it out) and invoc. When I'm fine with these I may have a look at tMut again.

Bloax wrote:Of course your int is crap, but getting a level 5 spell castable is a whole other story than a level 6 or 7.

This ring {rPois Str+3 Int+4} looks interesting, so Int is 14 now and will be 15 when I reach XL 27.

  Code:
 Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.11.0-9-gb634444 (webtiles) character file.

Turgon the Wrestler (Troll Gladiator)              Turns: 51293, Time: 12:43:18

HP 252/252 (256) AC 33     Str 36      XL: 26   Next: 58%
MP  30/30        EV  9     Int 14      God: the Shining One [**....]
Gold 2037        SH 49     Dex 13      Spells: 11 memorised,  2 levels left

Res.Fire  : + . .   See Invis. : .     - Unarmed
Res.Cold  : + . .   Warding    : .   K - +10 pearl dragon armour of Dim Light {rN+
Life Prot.: + + +   Conserve   : .   y - +3 large shield of Reomid {+Blink rN+ MR,
Res.Poison: +       Res.Corr.  : .   a - +0 wizard hat of Crawling {rF+ rC+, !d}
Res.Elec. : .       Clarity    : .   V - +2 cloak of Plog {Str+3 Acc-3, !d}
Sust.Abil.: + .     Spirit.Shd : .   (gloves unavailable)
Res.Mut.  : +       Stasis     : .   (boots unavailable)
Res.Rott. : .       Ctrl.Telep.: .   M - amulet of resist mutation {!d}
Gourmand  : +       Levitation : .   p - cursed ring "Wiwat" {rPois Str+3 Int+4, !d
                    Ctrl.Flight: .   G - ring of Impatience {SustAb +Rage Dex+1 Dam

@: extremely resistant to hostile enchantments, extremely unstealthy
A: unfitting armour, claws 3, fast metabolism 3, gourmand, regeneration 2,
saprovore 2, tough skin 2, AC +1
a: Divine Shield, Renounce Religion, Evoke Blink, Evoke Berserk Rage
}: 5/15 runes: serpentine, barnacled, slimy, silver, abyssal


You are on level 3 of the Crypt.
You worship the Shining One.
the Shining One is greatly pleased with you.
You are not hungry.

You have visited 10 branches of the dungeon, and seen 71 of its levels.
You have visited the Abyss 1 time.
You have also visited: Labyrinth and Ice Cave.

You have collected 5895 gold pieces.
You have spent 3878 gold pieces at shops.


Innate Abilities, Weirdness & Mutations

You are too large for most types of armour.
You have claws for hands.
Your metabolism is lightning-fast.
You like to eat raw meat.
You heal very quickly.
You can eat rotten meat.
You are covered in fur (AC +1).
You have very tough skin (AC +2).


   Skills:
 - Level 13.0 Fighting
 - Level 4.1 Throwing
 - Level 15.0 Armour
 - Level 6.1 Dodging
 - Level 15.0 Shields
 - Level 9.0 Traps & Doors
 + Level 22.0 Unarmed Combat
 - Level 6.0 Spellcasting
 - Level 17.2 Charms
 - Level 7.0 Translocations
 - Level 3.0 Transmutations
 - Level 2.1 Air Magic
 - Level 3.0 Poison Magic
 - Level 7.0 Invocations
 - Level 5.0 Evocations


You have 2 spell levels left.
You know the following spells:

 Your Spells                Type           Power             Failure   Level  Hunger
a - Apportation           Tloc            ####......       2%          1      None
b - Blink                      Tloc             N/A                  3%          2      #......
c - Control Teleport   Chrm/Tloc   ######....    3%         4       ####...
e - Blade Hands          Trmt           ###.......    100%          5      #####..
f - Flight                      Chrm/Air    #####.....     2%          3      ###....
h - Haste                     Chrm          #######..    8%          6      #######
i - See Invisible           Chrm          #######...   1%          4      ####...
n - Insulation              Chrm/Air    #####.....    10%          4      ####...
p - Cure Poison           Pois            ###.......       21%          2      #......
r - Repel Missiles       Chrm/Air    #####.....      1%          2      #......
w - Swiftness              Chrm/Air    #####.....      1%          2      #......


Edit: Recently went to Zot to get XP for tMut. Now I wield the large shield but blade hands is castable. Time for Pan now.
Last edited by Turgon on Thursday, 29th November 2012, 21:32, edited 1 time in total.

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Post Thursday, 29th November 2012, 20:44

This topic got a CIP of my TrGl increasingly, and as CDO is down and my troll must wait I made a topic in the YASD/YAVP/CIP forum (Statue form rules!).
Last edited by Turgon on Wednesday, 5th December 2012, 10:26, edited 1 time in total.

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Post Friday, 30th November 2012, 11:49

Re: Do I overestimate statue form?

Hey, you love Statue Form, that's great! I prefer Fireball. Others prefer Necromutation or Blade Hands or Summon Horrible Things or Freezing Cloud or whatever. Hehe, and some prefer Trog front back and center!

We all have our own favorite style and none of us should be judged for it, that's what I say. ^^
--Schwa, your local muse forever and long-time High Elf fangirl ^_~
(also the master of Quadri-Birds)

TheProvocateur: I like how we're sprinting at a pile of greater mummies
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Post Friday, 30th November 2012, 11:54

Re: Do I overestimate statue form?

This is a topic about whether or not statue form is a strategically viable option, not about "omfg i love statue form".

Or at least that's what we've turned it into.

Did I mention that ice storm is better than fireball?
take it easy
  Code:
!lg * won !DD-- min=turns -log
<Sequell> 20749. Bloax, XL24 VSTm, T:13320: http://crawl.lantea.net/crawl/morgue/Bloax/morgue-Bloax-20140907-000920.txt

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Post Friday, 30th November 2012, 12:11

Re: Do I overestimate statue form?

If we're discussing strategically, then I see 3 situations where Statue Form is very appropriate:

1) Midgame, you got the spell early through luck and you happened to be training Earth and/or tMut anyway. You also have some means of channeling, be that the staff or Sif. This then gives you the option to regen mp in the middle of combat, in a corridor - mobs that could easily squish you if you were formless can't do anything to your high AC as you sit there and channel while they're wailing away at you. As a further bonus, you can cast LRD nearby and not worry about being part of the collateral damage as you've got high AC.

2) Lategame, you have a huge army and the mobs you fight don't have any means to hurt you from afar aside from torment. You don't have any means of harming mobs through your big army either. In which case, you are twiddling your thumbs doing nothing but occasionally summon reinforcements, yet must maintain vision. You don't have necromutation online just yet. In this case, it matters little that you're getting fewer actions as you don't have much to do with your turns.

3) Walking through rot clouds, for whatever reason (e.g. a vault), preferably out of combat, and when you haven't got necromutation online yet.


In short: my view is that it's not the best main battle spell to have beyond the midgame. It's like twisted resurrection or mystic blast: amazing if you get it online during midgame, but there's better options later on.

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Post Friday, 30th November 2012, 21:16

Re: Do I overestimate statue form?

Statue Form is perfectly viable for much of the late game. It's just situational, and knowing when to leave it off is probably more important than knowing when to turn it on.

Most buffs in Crawl are just good. Having Repel Missiles up is better than not having Repel Missiles up in every single case. Having Haste on is better than not having Haste on except for the tiny corner case of having too much magic contamination, and even then it's often still a good idea to have Haste on. Well, Statue Form isn't like that. Statue Form has drawbacks, and it will kill you if you don't mind them.

It's similar in that way to Ice Form, which is another well-designed buff spell. Ice Form is pretty awesome; you get a large damage buff, extra hit points and armor, resistance to poison and cold, the ability to retreat over deep water, and a debuff that is useful against exactly the sort of monsters you're likely to fight around the time you get Ice Form working. But it also has drawbacks. You lose out on some equipment bonuses and you get an unfortunate fragility where open flames are concerned, such that wandering around the mid-level Dungeon and Vaults is liable to get you one- or two-shotted by a fire dragon or slaughtered by a centaur warrior with branded ammo.

Statue Form is similar. It has benefits, but its slowness is a big weakness. Ice Form doesn't like fire, but Statue Form doesn't like pretty much anything ranged. At range, Statue Form is mostly penalties, and even the bonuses that apply are questionable at best. Torment resistance doesn't help much if you're giving that foo fiend lots of extra turns as you try to approach it. This weakness applies to quite a few things, unfortunately, and you're not going to end up using it very often, but if you can judge the situation correctly it can be a big help in harder battles.

On the other hand, the middling levels of earth magic required for a transmuter to make Statue Form usable come with some serious extra bonuses that are exactly the sort of thing a transmuter wants. Rapid Deconstruction is a solid ranged attack. Passwall is a useful escape tool. Stoneskin should be on at pretty much all times. If you already have high transmutations, earth magic is likely to be a fairly efficient investment even if Statue Form itself only sees occasional use.

Outside of the specific case of an unarmed melee hybrid, I can't see myself ever bothering with Statue Form. High levels of transmutations have little to offer anybody not willing to base their character on forms, and a pure caster shouldn't touch Statue Form even if it was free to cast.
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Post Friday, 30th November 2012, 21:22

Re: Do I overestimate statue form?

If you want an example of why it's not so useful on a caster; I had a caster with statue form. The only thing I ever used it for was to punch to death/tank some damage.
Which is not a very frequent occurrence, since you'd likely be foo-storming the hell out of things. (Though that extra health is useful for many hard hitters in a row on a squishy caster.)
take it easy
  Code:
!lg * won !DD-- min=turns -log
<Sequell> 20749. Bloax, XL24 VSTm, T:13320: http://crawl.lantea.net/crawl/morgue/Bloax/morgue-Bloax-20140907-000920.txt

Did you know that I like ruining crawl every now and then? Go check it out.

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Post Friday, 30th November 2012, 21:30

Re: Do I overestimate statue form?

Not so useful at all. Statue Form doesn't give any bonus to spell damage, but the slowness penalty still applies. You're essentially getting a -33% penalty to your damage per absolute unit of time with no compensation, which is just terrible. You get some damage mitigation, but everything else also effectively gets +50% damage to you because it gets to attack you more often between your own moves, and all those monsters will still last the same amount of subjective turns before you finish them off.
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Post Friday, 30th November 2012, 21:45

Re: Do I overestimate statue form?

It does however give you a strong weapon if you're almost out of mp and there are still nasties left. Which is pretty much the only thing ever that I used it for. Probably should've invested in elemental staves.
take it easy
  Code:
!lg * won !DD-- min=turns -log
<Sequell> 20749. Bloax, XL24 VSTm, T:13320: http://crawl.lantea.net/crawl/morgue/Bloax/morgue-Bloax-20140907-000920.txt

Did you know that I like ruining crawl every now and then? Go check it out.

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Post Friday, 30th November 2012, 22:13

Re: Do I overestimate statue form?

So basically, statue form is the Large Shield of magic: the best way to use it is unintuitive.

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Post Monday, 3rd December 2012, 11:11

I'm surprised about these many hits and comments to this topic. One possible reason is that form spells are double-edged and so everybody is able to praise the advantages of his favorite form.

SchwaWarrior wrote:We all have our own favorite style

... and statue form remains my favorite form spell, at least for a troll.

The TrGl who started during this topic changed his strategy within the game: from claws to blade hands and - yes - finally to statue form again :-). Now it's a YAVP and I put it to the afore mentioned topic in the YAVP forum. Torment problems showed up in the extended but after switching to statue form he was fine.

Psieye wrote:You also have some means of channeling

I don't think channeling is necessary. Fighting in statue form means: statue form + (often) stoneskin + (often) haste + (sometimes) rMsl. I usually have enough MP for all of these spells, it's 6+2+6+2 altogether.

Psieye wrote:In short: my view is that it's not the best main battle spell to have beyond the midgame.

My view is that it is the best main battle spell for a troll in the whole game :-). But that's what SchwaWarrior was talking about.
Last edited by Turgon on Wednesday, 5th December 2012, 10:21, edited 5 times in total.

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Post Monday, 3rd December 2012, 11:23

Re:

Turgon wrote:
Psieye wrote:You also have some means of channeling

I don't think channeling is necessary. Fighting in statue form means: statue form + (often) stoneskin + (often) haste + (sometimes) rMsl. I usually have enough MP for all of these spells, it's 6+2+6+2 altogether.
Fighting. Not casting. I was thinking of a conjurer/EE who got statue form, my choice of words weren't optimal there. It's about sitting there, "chargin up mah lazor" and then blowing it off all while things are trying to hit you (in a corridor).

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Post Monday, 3rd December 2012, 11:47

KoboldLord wrote:Most buffs in Crawl are just good. [...] Well, Statue Form isn't like that. Statue Form has drawbacks

Yes, and as mentioned before I think drawbacks apply to all form spells. So it depends on your char and the situation which form you'll want to use.

KoboldLord wrote:Statue Form [...] has benefits, but its slowness is a big weakness.

I agree with the word weakness but I'm not sure about big.

In my experience torment protection is significantly more important than becoming slow. As statue form often implies casting haste you'll have normal speed which means same speed as most tormenting foes. Alright, you can't run away (as you could if hasted without statue form). But when a foo fiend shows up in pan/hell I cast statue form immediately and torment is no problem any longer, I'm able to approach and kill the fiend in a few turns.

KoboldLord wrote:On the other hand, the middling levels of earth magic required for a transmuter to make Statue Form usable come with some serious extra bonuses that are exactly the sort of thing a transmuter wants. Rapid Deconstruction is a solid ranged attack. Passwall is a useful escape tool. Stoneskin should be on at pretty much all times.

Yes, and I'd like to add dig which is very useful in my opinion. Unfortunately, it only remains in the 0.11 version afaik.

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Post Monday, 3rd December 2012, 12:09

Re: Do I overestimate statue form?

Nope, the spell dig is still there. It's the stalker class that got removed which had the perfect combination of Dig, Petrify and Passwall for the alternate stab style on startup.

In my experience torment protection is significantly more important than becoming slow.
See, if you don't mention you're thinking of trolls, then everyone automatically assumes you may as well just go for Necromutation for torment protection. Necromancy also gives access to life saver spells in the Necronomicon eventually, as well as making for an excellent midgame and good earlygame. Not saying Earth magic loses to Necromancy in usefulness but solely for the question of torment protection, Necromutation is superior. But in the case of a troll, a Lv 6 spell is much more accessible than a Lv 8 spell. Your troll also wants to be killing things with its own hands instead of abusing the zero-hunger state of Lich form (i.e. summoning/conjuration/channeling spam). In short, you want everything else that comes with statue form on top of the torment protection.

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Post Monday, 3rd December 2012, 14:39

Re: Do I overestimate statue form?

Being fast also gives you torment protection, because you kill the tormenting thing while taking 33% less time.

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Post Monday, 3rd December 2012, 21:45

Re:

Turgon wrote:In my experience torment protection is significantly more important than becoming slow.


You do realize that being slow means you get Tormented more often, right? It feels like you take a lot less damage because each individual Torment event deals less damage to your character, but ultimately there's only a small reduction in damage that takes place in between turns that your character gets. If you get hit by other damage sources at the same time, your situation could well be much worse off for having Statue Form up.

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Post Wednesday, 5th December 2012, 12:34

Psieye wrote:Nope, the spell dig is still there.

Thanks, that's nice. Trolls, having low AC and EV in the beginning, particularly benefit from digging tunnels to fight foes one by one.

*******

So I started this TrGl to prove that statue form isn't necessary for UC fighting - and fell back to statue form again! But I'm thinking about the critical comments in this topic, especially the counsellors' comments as they are generally very useful.

Alright, I rarely noticed the speed problem in my games. Maybe that's because casting haste in statue form is nearly mandatory for me in every non-trivial fight and espcecially when stairdancing in tomb.

So I wonder what to do in the extended when fighting unarmed but without statue form.

  • pure UC (= claws) - that's one thing I'm not satisfied with. (I had a look at Abominae's DsMo^Jiyva topic though.)
  • blade hands + cBlink - I guess it's more expensive in terms of XP than statue form. But this is the only alternative to statue form I see at the moment - although I'm not happy with these limitations of blade hands (alright, there's end transformation ofc)
  • any other forms for the extended? Necromutation will solve all torment problems but lich fighting is weaker than statue form fighting afaik. Also, it isn't available with TSO.
Did I miss anything?

Of course trolls have the option to wield weapons, e.g. a (holy) GSC but this topic is supposed to be about UC.

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Post Wednesday, 5th December 2012, 16:54

Re: Do I overestimate statue form?

UC without claws is good in extended. UC with claws is extremely good. Blade hands and dragon form are even better.

Necromutation is fine in some places but on most tms I wouldn't bother with it (I learned it on my ogtm only because of chei) since it's a big xp sink for not much benefit. Being smarter about when and where you fight will do basically everything that necromutation does, and that doesn't require the xp investment of a level 8 two-school spell.

For this message the author crate has received thanks:
Turgon

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Post Wednesday, 5th December 2012, 22:59

crate wrote:UC without claws is good in extended. UC with claws is extremely good. Blade hands and dragon form are even better.

So dragon form is another idea.

I used it with an OpTm (dangerous low AC) and a DrNe (nice, only requires tMut) but never thought about it as troll as it's a lev 7 spell, requires lots of fire magic with a -3 apt and has higher spell hunger. Compared to this statue form is only lev 6, provides much more AC and has earth magic's -1 apt.

crate wrote:Being smarter about when and where you fight will do basically everything that necromutation does

Avoiding fights is a surprising idea with a -5 apt in stealth but yes, it's another point to think about.

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Post Wednesday, 5th December 2012, 23:46

Re: Do I overestimate statue form?

I don't think I would learn dragon form on a troll (at least not without chei). The investment is enormous for not really a ton of benefit. Claws 3 UC will kill everything fast enough just fine, and it won't gimp your character elsewhere by sucking up all your xp.

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Post Monday, 10th December 2012, 15:15

Here's another post I'd like to answer.

tasonir wrote:I am a fellow statue form lover, and should probably be moving away from it, although I've been trying octopodes lately and they just cry out for statue form, so I'd still use it there.

Besides loss of speed (which has been mentioned a lot in this topic) statue form also temporarily removes equipment slots, it melds
  • armour
  • gloves
  • boots
So characters which are restricted in equipment slots but enjoy advantages in exchange will be fine with statue form:
  • draconions (no armour)
  • trolls, spriggans (no gloves, no boots)
  • demonspawns (depends on mutations)
  • octopodes (no armour, no gloves, no boots)
Octopodes are a special case. OpTm are very hard to start but in statue form they keep all equipment, they even keep their constriction ability! A stony octopode is incredible strong.

tasonir wrote:I have used necromutation (one caster and one melee) but it's somewhat underwhelming on melee and it's much more of an investment.

That's my experience too, in one game I went for necromut with an OpTm but was disappointed about it. It's useful in mummy zigs though.

tasonir wrote:Even with a ranged weapon backup or abjuration (a lot of torment is summoned fiends, but obviously not all), I'd rather lower the damage ahead of time rather than take a full damage torment even once.

Although many (good) players think differently in this topic I tend to confirm your point of view.

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Post Wednesday, 10th June 2015, 12:10

Re: Re:

KoboldLord wrote:You do realize that being slow means you get Tormented more often, right?


Statue Form gives +30% HP and 50% resistance to Torment. Normal character gets to 50-65% (55% with rN+) after a single Torment. After first torment Statue Form character with rN+ gets down to 100.75% (0.775 * 130%) HP of normal character, after second it gets down to 78% (0.775 * 100.75%) and Statue Form does not mean you are tormented twice more often, only 50% more often. With rN+++ and Statue Form you get to 107.25% (0.825 * 130%) after first torment and to 88% (0.825 * 107.25%) after second one.

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Post Wednesday, 10th June 2015, 12:42

Re: Do I overestimate statue form?

Interesting informations but that's an helluva of necropost!
screw it I hate this character I'm gonna go melee Gastronok

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Post Wednesday, 10th June 2015, 12:45

Re: Do I overestimate statue form?

Just tested in wizmod.
Troll with 323 HP and rN+++ has 92 HP after 3 torments.
Troll with 323 normal HP and Statue Form has 419 HP, with rN+++ it has 87 HP after 9 torments.

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Post Wednesday, 10th June 2015, 12:46

Re: Do I overestimate statue form?

nago wrote:Interesting informations but that's an helluva of necropost!


Sorry. I couldn't lose a chance to prove KoboldLord is wrong, it happens so rarely :)

Edit. Also I missed the thread, I joined the forum soon after it.

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