Invisibility seems worse at high spell power


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Lair Larrikin

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Post Tuesday, 25th September 2012, 01:25

Invisibility seems worse at high spell power

(from DCSS 0.10.3)

Invisibility spells last longer when the caster has higher spellpower; this is one of the few cases in which having a higher spellpower or higher skill levels can be bad for the player.

I'm not clear on what the solution should be; but I'm finding it's becoming a huge problem for my enchanter now that my hexes are at a high level.

For comparison's sake, I made a fairly un-scientific trial:
Spoiler: show
A spriggan with 40 int, 27 in all skills, has 100 spellpower for invisibility (the max).
Cast Control Teleport, Invisibility (target self), then cast Blink twice. Rest.
Result: Magic contamination and bad mutations.

Now we set the spriggan's Hexes to 0, and wield a staff of wizardry. Spellpower is now 51; failure is about 24%.
Cast Control Teleport, Invisibility (target self), then cast Blink three times. Rest.
Result (assuming no miscasts): Not enough contamination to turn me visible or mutate me!


Basically, whenever Invisibility at full spellpower is combined with any source of contamination -- haste or controlled teleports, maybe miscasts -- there's almost guaranteed bad mutations coming along, because the invisibility lasts so long. The only way to switch off this invisibility seems to be the rare Scroll of Vulnerability.

I could use Lantern of Shadows to lower my spellpower for casting Invisibility, but... it kills my stealth, and besides, isn't it sort of a bug if low spellpower is more desirable?

Suppose if I could cast invisibility for 6MP to turn invisible, stab some people, and then cast it again for 6MP to switch it off? This would bring it in line with buffs that must be stopped before they can be extended, such as Death's Door and (most) evocable artifacts. I'm not sure if that would be overpowered, but it's still clearly less powerful than the ring of invisibility, at least. (ring of invisibility = 2MP to go invisible, free to Turn Visible at any time)

Edit: Another possibility -- Have invisibility give contamination at a rate determined by the player's Hexes skill/spellpower. Therefore, at high power, your invisibility would last longer but still give the same amount of contamination. (Should this affect contamination from invisibility from all sources, or just those from the spell?)
Last edited by typhen on Tuesday, 25th September 2012, 03:56, edited 1 time in total.
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Barkeep

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Post Tuesday, 25th September 2012, 01:40

Re: Invisibility seems worse at high spell power

You should probably just be able to shrug off invisibility like you can forms. At very least, yeah, you should be able to take the MP hit to do it.

Maybe Haste should be the one thing you can't voluntarily stop, but I'm not even sure about that.
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Vaults Vanquisher

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Post Tuesday, 25th September 2012, 03:17

Re: Invisibility seems worse at high spell power

Or just cap invisibilty duration to something more sensible, probably by capping spellpower at some lower value.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 25th September 2012, 04:39

Re: Invisibility seems worse at high spell power

njvack wrote:You should probably just be able to shrug off invisibility like you can forms.


This. If I can deactivate a potentially dangerous form (even from a deck of escape) I should be able to turn off invisibility; every inviso evocable except wands supports it in some fashion.
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Vestibule Violator

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Post Tuesday, 25th September 2012, 05:23

Re: Invisibility seems worse at high spell power

I like ebarrett's solution, for simplicity - no reason that couldn't happen, even for 0.11.
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Dungeon Master

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Post Tuesday, 25th September 2012, 10:25

Re: Invisibility seems worse at high spell power

Some people also have reported getting yellow glow just from a single cast of high powered invisibility. How about reducing its max power to 80?

edit: it seems if you have low enough power, you can use haste and invisibility together. Seems even worse.

How about the amount of contamination from those spells doesn't grow with power? Upon casting, a randomized amount of contamination goes into a buffer. While the spell is active, it's regularly transferred from the buffer to you. That way, power is always desirable. You get more duration but the same average amount of contamination.
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Post Tuesday, 25th September 2012, 12:53

Re: Invisibility seems worse at high spell power

Why is the contamination is handled over time? Why not give it all when casting the spell? Currently it's very hard to determine if casting a spell would give you yellow glow or not, and thus the game gives no warning (prompt) for these dangerous acts, which is not the way crawl usualy handles these issues.

My solution:

1. For all spells, give the contamination immediately upon casting. The amount should be fixed for a given spell. It should never increase with power, but it may be reduced with power for a given spell.
2. If casting the spell would give you yellow glow, give a warning prompt. For invisibility casting it on yourself may not be allowed in this case (since it is useless).

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Barkeep

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Post Tuesday, 25th September 2012, 12:55

Re: Invisibility seems worse at high spell power

galehar wrote:Some people also have reported getting yellow glow just from a single cast of high powered invisibility. How about reducing its max power to 80?

edit: it seems if you have low enough power, you can use haste and invisibility together. Seems even worse.

How about the amount of contamination from those spells doesn't grow with power? Upon casting, a randomized amount of contamination goes into a buffer. While the spell is active, it's regularly transferred from the buffer to you. That way, power is always desirable. You get more duration but the same average amount of contamination.

This seems elegant -- debuffing spell power to get a safe round of invisihate is, um, silly.
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Halls Hopper

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Post Tuesday, 25th September 2012, 13:19

Re: Invisibility seems worse at high spell power

galehar wrote:Some people also have reported getting yellow glow just from a single cast of high powered invisibility. How about reducing its max power to 80?

edit: it seems if you have low enough power, you can use haste and invisibility together. Seems even worse.

How about the amount of contamination from those spells doesn't grow with power? Upon casting, a randomized amount of contamination goes into a buffer. While the spell is active, it's regularly transferred from the buffer to you. That way, power is always desirable. You get more duration but the same average amount of contamination.


An elegant solution indeed. But what about the sources of contamination other than haste and invis? If I cast a spell and fail, the invis-based contamination might or might not bring me to yellow glow on the next contamination "giveaway", so one should not even try to cast something transmutation-based while invisible (are transmutation miscasts the ones which give the most glow?). So one should still wait when invis wears off, which is strange too. What about giving the player an option to end invis and/or haste but give some small extra contamination cost (1-2) for it? In this case I would just turn invis off asap if i miscast comething that could possibly give me bad muts in result.
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Post Tuesday, 25th September 2012, 13:22

Re: Invisibility seems worse at high spell power

onton wrote:are transmutation miscasts the ones which give the most glow?

No. You must be confused by the fact that transmutation miscasts of high severity can directly give you bad mutations.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 25th September 2012, 14:14

Re: Invisibility seems worse at high spell power

Once you hit yellow glow, you're visible, correct? Or are you in some weird state where you're both visible yet still difficult to hit? If you are, for all intents and purposes, visible again, then the spell should just end as soon as you start glowing. Your contamination isn't going to decay enough to stop glowing while Invis is still in effect.

Halls Hopper

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Post Tuesday, 25th September 2012, 18:38

Re: Invisibility seems worse at high spell power

sanka wrote:Why is the contamination is handled over time? Why not give it all when casting the spell? Currently it's very hard to determine if casting a spell would give you yellow glow or not, and thus the game gives no warning (prompt) for these dangerous acts, which is not the way crawl usualy handles these issues.

My solution:

1. For all spells, give the contamination immediately upon casting. The amount should be fixed for a given spell. It should never increase with power, but it may be reduced with power for a given spell.
2. If casting the spell would give you yellow glow, give a warning prompt. For invisibility casting it on yourself may not be allowed in this case (since it is useless).

This is exactly what Crawl Light does, for what it's worth.
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Halls Hopper

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Post Tuesday, 25th September 2012, 20:20

Re: Invisibility seems worse at high spell power

BlackSheep wrote:Once you hit yellow glow, you're visible, correct? Or are you in some weird state where you're both visible yet still difficult to hit? If you are, for all intents and purposes, visible again, then the spell should just end as soon as you start glowing. Your contamination isn't going to decay enough to stop glowing while Invis is still in effect.

I guess not, beause glow!=contamination now. So you can be contaminated, but not glowing, and glow is something corona- and halo-induced now. Is it right?

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 25th September 2012, 20:22

Re: Invisibility seems worse at high spell power

onton wrote:I guess not, beause glow!=contamination now. So you can be contaminated, but not glowing, and glow is something corona- and halo-induced now. Is it right?

http://crawl.develz.org/info/index.php?q=contamination
http://crawl.develz.org/info/index.php?q=glow

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Post Tuesday, 25th September 2012, 21:40

Re: Invisibility seems worse at high spell power

"Glow" as a status light refers to being backlit, not necessarily magically contaminated (high contamination makes you glow, as do sticky flame, corona, haloes, etc). And yes, it overrides invisibility. (Possibly it'd be worth using a different word for the backlit status light but it was glow in the patch that implemented it and I didn't think to change it. Maybe "Lit" is fine but this is offtopic).

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Lair Larrikin

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Post Wednesday, 26th September 2012, 06:44

Re: Invisibility seems worse at high spell power

If you are, for all intents and purposes, visible again, then the spell should just end as soon as you start glowing. Your contamination isn't going to decay enough to stop glowing while Invis is still in effect.


Ooh, I like this. In one of my testings, my character turned invisible, then started glowing from magic contam; mutated from the contamination -- losing the glow -- and after a while, was still invisible, so started glowing -again-.

Auto switch-off of invisibility when contamination-glow begins would be a good feature.... waiting for invisibility to end so that contamination can fade is like a multi-layered frustration cake, and the inner layer is raw necrophage flesh. And you're a spriggan.

A thought: vampires drinking kobold nectar will stop drinking as soon as they hit Satiated and become poison-vulnerable. What if an invisible character turns visible as an -alternative- to stepping up to mutagenic/visible levels of magic contamination, in the same fashion? That could be a simple solution that solves many (but not all) concerns. But I guess it would be too much of a buff to invisibility (and give too much benefit to the "pretty much always recast invisibility" playstyle).


1. For all spells, give the contamination immediately upon casting. The amount should be fixed for a given spell. It should never increase with power, but it may be reduced with power for a given spell.


If the amount is delivered upfront, and fixed for a given spell, that would certainly be a great quality of life improvement for a Hexes person. Right now deciding whether I can safely semicontrolled blink once or twice during an invisibility session is... russian roulette. (And the "gun" is a wand of polymorph other. :p)

Am I correct in assuming that other spellcast-sources of contamination -- controlled teleports/blinks, maybe even miscasts -- give a fixed amount of contamination? Or are they all random?

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Post Wednesday, 26th September 2012, 06:46

Re: Invisibility seems worse at high spell power

MarvinPA wrote:"Glow" as a status light refers to being backlit, not necessarily magically contaminated (high contamination makes you glow, as do sticky flame, corona, haloes, etc). And yes, it overrides invisibility. (Possibly it'd be worth using a different word for the backlit status light but it was glow in the patch that implemented it and I didn't think to change it. Maybe "Lit" is fine but this is offtopic).


Whoa, seems messed up to me then. You definitely should not accumulate contamination from being visible.

Still the spell should not just end when you start glowing, otherwise you could cast invis, cblink a couple of times and still end up with no mutations, because when you just start glowing yellow, you do not mutate nor do you take damage from it.

Lair Larrikin

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Post Wednesday, 26th September 2012, 07:06

Re: Invisibility seems worse at high spell power

Still the spell should not just end when you start glowing, otherwise you could cast invis, cblink a couple of times and still end up with no mutations, because when you just start glowing yellow, you do not mutate nor do you take damage from it.


Actually, yes, from the moment you start glowing visibly, you have a chance to take bad mutations/damage. So even if the invisibility effect ends as soon as the Glow starts, it's still not worth doing regularly -- your mutation level would just be crazy.

For what it's worth, an octopode wearing 7 invisibility rings and a ring of controlled teleport can do exactly this: so long as she switches off invisibility at just the right time, she can controlled blink a few times before turning visible :)

The tradeoff she makes is, her time spent invisible will be much shorter. Plus, she risks mutations if she screws up her timings. Much better than the spell, but takes up a ring/equipment slot.

I'm not going to make any more suggestions as to what we should do about this, because as someone who's currently got a high-level Hexer, I'm far, far too biased in favour of anything that makes my poor adventurer more survivable :-D

Great discussion though!
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Post Wednesday, 26th September 2012, 15:01

Re: Invisibility seems worse at high spell power

onton wrote:Whoa, seems messed up to me then. You definitely should not accumulate contamination from being visible.

You've read it backward. Having lots of magical contamination gives you glow, not the other way around.

Actually, there seems to be a worse problem with magical contamination. The scale is too coarse. When hasted or invisible, you have 6/10 chance of gaining a point every 20 turns. When not, you have 1/2 chance of losing a point every 20 turns. It means that it's much safer to cast invisibility on turn 101 than on turn 119 (game turn). So there's actually a lot of variability in the amount of contamination you can gain.
Would be better to have a smoother scale. Multiply everything by 100. You start yellow glow at 501 contamination instead of 6, and you gain 2 points per turn when hasted/invis instead of an average of 0.018. And it dissipate at 3 points per turn instead of an average of 0.025.

Then, we'll see if other changes are still needed.
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Post Wednesday, 26th September 2012, 16:57

Re: Invisibility seems worse at high spell power

I would quite approve of such a change, consistency with something like this is quite important.
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Post Monday, 12th August 2013, 06:49

Re: Invisibility seems worse at high spell power

Sorry to bump an old thread, but was this ever fixed?

I'm playing on CSZO trunk an XL16.13 SpEn with 13.3 hexes and 22 int. The Invisibility spell's power is at 6/8 #'s. I may be an unusual case because I've cast Invisibility over 50 times already in my game, but in rare cases I've begun to glow with contamination from just a single casting of Invisibility (typically a few turns before the spell ends). This has happened several times now, and on the third time (right now, at XL16.13) I gained a mutation. One of my major objectives this game is to train hexes up to cast Discord, so won't the problem become even worse if I do that? Here's the dump (note that my earlier mutations are from when I screwed up):

Spoiler: show
  Code:
 Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.13-a0-2676-gd993d8a (console) character file.

Tenfire the Unseen (Spriggan Enchanter)            Turns: 42871, Time: 08:52:26

HP  56/56        AC 10     Str  7      XL: 16   Next: 13%
MP  40/40        EV 22     Int 22      God: Vehumet [******]
Gold 2019        SH 13     Dex 17      Spells:  8 memorised, 21 levels left

Res.Fire  : . . .   See Invis. : +   a - +1 orc dagger (vamp)
Res.Cold  : . . .   Warding    : .   K - +0 mottled dragon armour
Life Prot.: . . .   Conserve   : .   d - +2 dwarf buckler {rPois}
Res.Poison: +       Res.Corr.  : +   g - +2 wizard hat
Res.Elec. : .       Clarity    : .   J - +1 dwarf cloak
Sust.Abil.: . .     Spirit.Shd : .   (gloves unavailable)
Res.Mut.  : .       Stasis     : .   (boots unavailable)
Res.Rott. : .       Flight     : .   D - amulet of resist corrosion
Saprovore : . . .                    h - ring of wizardry
                                     c - +4 ring of strength

@: invisible, very slightly contaminated, very quick, very resistant to hostile
enchantments, extraordinarily stealthy
A: unfitting armour, see invisible, herbivore 3, speed 3, -20% hp, slow
metabolism 2, Str -1, Dex -1
a: Renounce Religion


You are on level 4 of the Swamp.
You worship Vehumet.
Vehumet is exalted by your worship.
You are not hungry.

You have visited 6 branches of the dungeon, and seen 32 of its levels.
You have visited 1 bazaar.
You have also visited: Ice Cave.

You have collected 2927 gold pieces.
You have spent 928 gold pieces at shops.

Inventory:

Hand weapons
 a - a +1,+1 orcish vampiric dagger (weapon)
 b - a +1,+2 orcish dagger of protection
 R - a +2,+3 orcish dagger of draining
Missiles
 k - 9 silver darts (quivered)
Armour
 d - a +2 dwarven buckler of poison resistance (worn)
 g - a +2 wizard hat (worn)
 J - a +1 dwarven cloak (worn)
 K - a +0 mottled dragon armour (worn)
Magical devices
 j - a wand of flame
 o - a wand of slowing {zapped: 3}
 p - a wand of cold {zapped: 1}
 q - a wand of draining {zapped: 1}
 s - a wand of cold
Comestibles
 i - an apple
 C - 2 bread rations
Scrolls
 e - 2 scrolls of blinking
 f - a scroll of identify
 r - 2 scrolls of fear
 E - 4 scrolls of teleportation
 N - 2 scrolls of fog
Jewellery
 c - a +4 ring of strength (left hand)
 h - a ring of wizardry (right hand)
 l - an uncursed ring of positive energy
 m - an uncursed glowing brass ring {tried}
 z - a +6 ring of intelligence
 A - an uncursed amulet of stasis
 D - an amulet of resist corrosion (around neck)
 H - an uncursed ring of teleportation
 O - an uncursed ring of ice
Potions
 n - a potion of flight
 u - 3 potions of curing
 w - 3 potions of heal wounds
 P - a potion of speed
Miscellaneous
 M - a lantern of shadows


   Skills:
 - Level 2.5 Fighting
 + Level 8.9 Short Blades
 - Level 1.1 Throwing
 + Level 12.1 Dodging
 + Level 19.6 Stealth
 * Level 17.6 Spellcasting
 - Level 10.6 Conjurations
 - Level 13.3 Hexes


You have 21 spell levels left.
You know the following spells:

 Your Spells              Type           Power        Failure   Level  Hunger
a - Corona                Hex            ######.      1%          1    None
b - Ensorcelled Hibernat  Hex/Ice        #####.       1%          2    None
c - Confuse               Hex            ######..     1%          3    None
d - Invisibility          Hex            ######..     1%          6    ####...
e - Stone Arrow           Conj/Erth      #####.       1%          3    None
f - Conjure Flame         Conj/Fire      #####...     1%          3    None
g - Orb of Destruction    Conj           ######....   10%         7    ######.
h - Iskenderun's Mystic   Conj           ######..     1%          4    None


Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations

Branches:
Dungeon (13/27)            Temple (1/1) D:6             Orc (4/4) D:8
    Elf (2/3) Orc:4          Lair (8/8) D:11          Swamp (4/5) Lair:5
  Snake (0/5) Lair:5        Slime (0/6) Lair:7     

Altars:
Ashenzari
Cheibriados
Elyvilon
Fedhas
Kikubaaqudgha
Makhleb
Nemelex Xobeh
Okawaru
Sif Muna
Trog
Vehumet
Xom
Yredelemnul
Zin
the Shining One
Beogh
Jiyva

Shops:
D:4: [  Orc:4: ?!*(  Elf:1: ?}[

Annotations
D:8 exclusion: oklob plant
Lair:1 1 exclusion
Swamp:4 exclusion: electric eel


Innate Abilities, Weirdness & Mutations

You are tiny and cannot use many weapons and most armour.
You have supernaturally acute eyesight.
You are a herbivore.
You cover ground extremely quickly.
You need consume almost no food.
You are clumsy (Dex -1).
You are very frail (-20% HP).
You are weak (Str -1).


Message History

The helpless swamp worm fails to defend itself.
You open the swamp worm like a pillowcase!!!!!
You kill the swamp worm!
Vehumet accepts your kill.
You hear a splash.
You enter the shallow water.
Moving in this stuff is going to be slow.
...and don't expect to remain undetected.
You enter the shallow water.
Moving in this stuff is going to be slow.
...and don't expect to remain undetected.
You enter the shallow water.
Moving in this stuff is going to be slow.
...and don't expect to remain undetected.
You are contaminated with residual magics.
Your body shudders with the violent release of wild energies!
You feel weaker.
You feel less contaminated with magical energies.
You fade completely from view now that you are no longer glowing from magical contamination.
You see here a scroll of noise.

         ♣♣♣♣
  ♣♣♣♣♣♣♣♣.≈♣♣♣♣♣♣♣♣♣
 ♣♣..@.♣≈≈≈≈..≈≈♣.≈.♣
♣♣..≈≈≈..≈≈≈≈≈≈.≈≈≈≈♣
♣..≈≈≈≈..≈≈≈≈.≈♣≈≈≈≈♣♣
♣♣♣≈≈≈≈♣≈.≈≈..♣♣♣.....
  ♣♣♣♣♣≈.≈♣♣♣.≈♣♣≈≈≈≈≈
      ♣♣♣♣♣♣♣≈≈♣♣.≈≈≈.
       ♣♣.≈♣♣≈♣♣♣♣.≈..
       ♣≈(.≈♣≈..♣♣♣♣♣♣
      ♣♣.≈≈≈..≈≈.♣


There are no monsters in sight!

Vanquished Creatures
  Agnes (Swamp:4)
  Kirke (Elf:1)
  2 deep elf demonologists
  2 dragons (Lair:8)
  Fannar (Elf:2)
  Harold (Lair:2)
  8 hydras
  Erica (Lair:2)
  7 alligators
  5 death yaks (Lair:8)
  5 deep elf knights
  A catoblepas (Lair:6)
  A centaur warrior (D:13)
  An unseen horror (shapeshifter) (D:13)
  An ice statue (IceCv)
  An orc knight (Orc:1)
  2 lindwurms (Lair:8)
  An unseen horror (D:11)
  2 swamp dragons
  A necromancer (Lair:6)
  Joseph (D:12)
  3 oklob plants (Lair:5)
  3 hill giants
  4 deep elf conjurers (Elf:1)
  8 orc sorcerers
  7 spiny worms (Lair:8)
  A red wasp (Swamp:4)
  6 black mambas
  10 elephants
  Maurice (D:11)
  4 deep elf summoners (Elf:1)
  A vapour (Swamp:3)
  A feature mimic (Orc:4)
  A queen bee (D:9)
  10 spiny frogs
  5 fire drakes
  3 deep elf priests
  11 polar bears (IceCv)
  2 trolls
  12 komodo dragons
  A hydra zombie (D:9)
  9 giant leeches
  3 two-headed ogres
  A boulder beetle (Lair:6)
  10 baby alligators
  A red devil (Orc:4)
  9 blink frogs
  6 bog bodies
  2 basilisks
  48 yaks
  6 giant fireflies (Lair:8)
  21 slime creatures
  A trapdoor spider (D:12)
  10 deep elf magi
  3 ugly things (D:13)
  2 wyverns
  2 elephant slugs (Lair:8)
  A wraith (D:12)
  A hog (Elf:1)
  13 deep elf fighters
  4 hungry ghosts
  14 vampire mosquitoes
  16 wolves
  37 swamp worms
  7 hippogriffs
  A steam dragon (D:13)
  A manticore (D:9)
  5 rock worms (Lair:8)
  3 mottled dragons (Lair:8)
  4 nagas (Lair:5)
  9 porcupines
  13 swamp drakes
  3 sky beasts
  13 orc warriors
  2 phantoms
  A boring beetle (shapeshifter) (Elf:1)
  11 ice beasts
  3 black bears
  A boring beetle (Lair:8)
  7 ogres
  A giant goldfish (Swamp:4)
  The ghost of Nudhul the Changer, an average MfTm (D:3)
  9 centaurs
  20 crocodiles
  A yaktaur zombie (D:12)
  9 wargs
  3 giant slugs
  16 giant frogs
  4 brain worms
  25 water moccasins
  10 agate snails
  2 big kobolds
  A cyclops skeleton (D:13)
  33 killer bees
  19 insubstantial wisps
  An eye of draining (D:12)
  2 troll zombies
  7 jellyfish
  3 electric eels
  6 wights
  12 hounds
  A black bear zombie (D:7)
  6 crimson imps
  5 goliath beetles
  10 iguanas
  18 orc priests
  4 quasits
  An orange rat (D:10)
  A water moccasin zombie (D:6)
  A centaur skeleton (D:4)
  A giant frog skeleton (D:9)
  43 orc wizards
  A removed MONS_DEEP_ELF_SOLDIER (D:6)
  5 big fish
  3 scorpions
  8 worker ants
  3 grizzly bear simulacra (Lair:6)
  4 jellies
  An ogre skeleton (D:4)
  A hound zombie (D:3)
  A hound skeleton (D:9)
  2 mummies
  29 green rats
  A lemure (Elf:2)
  18 adders
  2 giant centipedes
  2 hound simulacra (Lair:6)
  2 giant mites
  11 gnolls
  21 worms
  3 ufetubi (Orc:2)
  An adder skeleton (D:4)
  4 grey rats (D:10)
  4 giant eyeballs
  4 sheep simulacra (Lair:6)
  8 giant geckos
  4 oozes
  170 orcs
  A ball python (D:1)
  3 giant cockroaches
  19 goblins
  17 hobgoblins
  19 jackals
  17 kobolds
  11 quokkas
  22 bats
  6 giant newts
  5 giant spores
  2 hobgoblin skeletons
  2 orc zombies (Orc:4)
  A quokka skeleton (D:4)
  27 rats
  2 rat simulacra (Lair:6)
  4 ballistomycetes
1191 creatures vanquished.

Vanquished Creatures (others)
  A deep elf fighter (Elf:1)
  A human (Elf:1)
  An ufetubus (Orc:4)
  2 orcs (Orc:4)
  A fungus (Lair:8)
  A plant (Lair:8)
  12 toadstools (D:8)
19 creatures vanquished.

Grand Total: 1210 creatures vanquished

Notes
Turn   | Place    | Note
--------------------------------------------------------------
     0 | D:1      | Tenfire, the Spriggan Enchanter, began the quest for the Orb.
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 1. HP: 9/9 MP: 4/4
   301 | D:1      | Reached XP level 2. HP: 5/13 MP: 3/6
   335 | D:1      | Learned a level 2 spell: Ensorcelled Hibernation
   465 | D:1      | Reached skill level 4 in Hexes
   705 | D:1      | Reached XP level 3. HP: 16/16 MP: 9/9
  1077 | D:2      | Found a shattered altar of Ashenzari.
  1106 | D:2      | Reached skill level 5 in Stealth
  1124 | D:2      | Found a glowing golden altar of the Shining One.
  2008 | D:3      | Reached XP level 4. HP: 21/21 MP: 3/11
  2261 | D:3      | Noticed Nudhul's ghost (average MfTm)
  2427 | D:3      | Reached skill level 6 in Stealth
  2612 | D:4      | Found a snail-covered altar of Cheibriados.
  2613 | D:4      | Found an ancient bone altar of Kikubaaqudgha.
  2641 | D:4      | Found Etak's Armour Boutique.
  2648 | D:4      | Learned a level 3 spell: Confuse
  2921 | D:4      | Reached XP level 5. HP: 14/24 MP: 12/15
  3132 | D:4      | Reached skill level 7 in Stealth
  3184 | D:4      | Found an iron altar of Okawaru.
  3520 | D:4      | Reached XP level 6. HP: 16/28 MP: 16/19
  3581 | D:4      | Paralysed by a giant eyeball for 3 turns
  3588 | D:4      | Paralysed by a giant eyeball for 3 turns
  3953 | D:5      | Entered Level 5 of the Dungeon
  4063 | D:5      | Reached skill level 5 in Spellcasting
  4324 | D:5      | Reached skill level 8 in Stealth
  4324 | D:5      | Reached XP level 7. HP: 32/32 MP: 14/22
  4926 | D:6      | Reached skill level 9 in Stealth
  5131 | D:6      | Found a staircase to the Ecumenical Temple.
  5143 | Temple   | Entered the Ecumenical Temple
  5498 | Temple   | Learned a level 6 spell: Invisibility
  5769 | D:7      | Reached skill level 5 in Hexes
  5865 | D:7      | Reached XP level 8. HP: 31/36 MP: 14/25
  6006 | Temple   | Became a worshipper of Vehumet
  6185 | D:7      | Reached skill level 10 in Stealth
  6553 | D:7      | Reached skill level 5 in Dodging
  6570 | D:6      | Upgraded the game from 0.13-a0-2299-gdd84641 to 0.13-a0-2301-g23820b6
  6695 | D:7      | Reached skill level 11 in Stealth
  6957 | D:7      | Acquired Vehumet's first power
  6957 | D:7      | Offered knowledge of Flame Tongue by Vehumet.
  7177 | D:8      | Found a burning altar of Makhleb.
  7233 | D:8      | Reached XP level 9. HP: 39/39 MP: 27/27
  7733 | D:9      | Reached skill level 10 in Hexes
  8443 | D:8      | Offered knowledge of Sting by Vehumet.
  8539 | D:8      | Upgraded the game from 0.13-a0-2301-g23820b6 to 0.13-a0-2350-g4422b0a
  8658 | D:8      | Found a staircase to the Orcish Mines.
  8678 | D:8      | Reached XP level 10. HP: 44/44 MP: 24/29
  8793 | D:8      | Got a polished animal skin
  8800 | D:8      | Identified the +2 animal skin of Lunin {rC+} (You found it on level 8 of the Dungeon)
  9195 | D:8      | Found a blossoming altar of Fedhas.
  9240 | D:8      | Noticed an oklob plant
  9629 | D:9      | Reached skill level 12 in Hexes
  9636 | D:9      | Reached skill level 10 in Spellcasting
  9752 | D:10     | Entered Level 10 of the Dungeon
  9851 | D:8      | Gained mutation: You are frail (-10% HP). [mutagenic glow]
  9891 | D:8      | Gained mutation: You are clumsy (Dex -1). [mutagenic glow]
 10185 | D:9      | Offered knowledge of Stone Arrow by Vehumet.
 10193 | D:9      | Learned a level 3 spell: Stone Arrow
 10275 | D:9      | Acquired Vehumet's second power
 10433 | D:9      | Reached skill level 1 in Conjurations
 10849 | D:10     | Offered knowledge of Throw Icicle by Vehumet.
 11118 | D:10     | Reached XP level 11. HP: 40/42 MP: 28/32
 11686 | D:10     | Reached skill level 1 in Fighting
 11722 | D:10     | Acquired Vehumet's third power
 11824 | D:11     | Noticed Maurice
 11837 | D:11     | Killed Maurice
 11980 | D:11     | Noticed a hill giant
 11991 | D:11     | Killed a hill giant
 11991 | D:11     | Reached skill level 13 in Hexes
 12108 | D:11     | Noticed an unseen horror
 12117 | D:11     | Killed an unseen horror
 12117 | D:11     | Offered knowledge of Conjure Flame by Vehumet.
 12201 | D:11     | Learned a level 3 spell: Conjure Flame
 12222 | D:11     | Noticed a hill giant
 12243 | D:11     | Killed a hill giant
 12342 | D:11     | Found a staircase to the Lair.
 12435 | Lair:1   | Entered Level 1 of the Lair of Beasts
 13130 | Lair:2   | Noticed Erica
 13146 | Lair:2   | Killed Erica
 13335 | Lair:2   | Reached skill level 5 in Conjurations
 13524 | Lair:2   | Noticed Harold
 13583 | Lair:2   | Offered knowledge of Fulminant Prism by Vehumet.
 13590 | Lair:2   | Noticed a seven-headed hydra
 13603 | Lair:2   | Killed a seven-headed hydra
 13627 | Lair:2   | Killed Harold
 13627 | Lair:2   | Reached XP level 12. HP: 37/47 MP: 27/33
 13721 | Lair:2   | Upgraded the game from 0.13-a0-2350-g4422b0a to 0.13-a0-2477-geaae114
 13721 | Lair:2   | Daisuki: =)
 14749 | Lair:3   | Reached skill level 14 in Stealth
 15273 | Lair:3   | Noticed a six-headed hydra
 15417 | Lair:3   | Killed a six-headed hydra
 16507 | Lair:4   | Found a snail-covered altar of Cheibriados.
 16904 | Lair:4   | Upgraded the game from 0.13-a0-2477-geaae114 to 0.13-a0-2505-g5f0fbe2
 17487 | Lair:5   | Reached skill level 15 in Stealth
 17541 | Lair:5   | Found a staircase to the Swamp.
 18015 | Lair:5   | Offered knowledge of Olgreb's Toxic Radiance by Vehumet.
 18023 | Lair:5   | Found a glowing golden altar of the Shining One.
 18050 | Lair:5   | Reached XP level 13. HP: 52/52 MP: 34/34
 18243 | Lair:5   | Found a staircase to the Snake Pit.
 18737 | Lair:6   | Reached skill level 16 in Stealth
 19687 | Lair:7   | Found a staircase to the Slime Pits.
 19690 | Lair:7   | Found a viscous altar of Jiyva.
 20788 | Lair:1   | Learned a level 7 spell: Orb of Destruction
 20984 | Lair:8   | Entered Level 8 of the Lair of Beasts
 21447 | Lair:8   | Reached skill level 17 in Stealth
 21565 | Lair:8   | Upgraded the game from 0.13-a0-2505-g5f0fbe2 to 0.13-a0-2561-ge340899
 21565 | Lair:8   | Upgraded the game from 0.13-a0-2561-ge340899 to 0.13-a0-2648-g56e3d78
 21701 | Lair:8   | Reached skill level 10 in Conjurations
 22128 | Lair:8   | Reached XP level 14. HP: 55/55 MP: 34/36
 22176 | Lair:8   | Offered knowledge of Bolt of Cold by Vehumet.
 22466 | Lair:8   | Reached skill level 18 in Stealth
 23984 | Lair:1   | Learned a level 4 spell: Iskenderun's Mystic Blast
 24268 | Orc:1    | Entered Level 1 of the Orcish Mines
 25425 | Orc:3    | Offered knowledge of Bolt of Fire by Vehumet.
 25702 | Orc:4    | Entered Level 4 of the Orcish Mines
 25754 | Orc:4    | Found a staircase to the Elven Halls.
 26022 | Orc:4    | Found Curhara's Magic Scroll Shop.
 26590 | Orc:2    | Found a roughly hewn altar of Beogh.
 26665 | Orc:4    | Found Irennin's Distillery.
 27701 | Orc:4    | Offered knowledge of Ozocubu's Refrigeration by Vehumet.
 27912 | Orc:4    | Found a roughly hewn altar of Beogh.
 27923 | Orc:4    | Found Ponuink's General Store.
 27923 | Orc:4    | Found Lol Pro's Weapon Shoppe.
 28186 | Orc:4    | Bought a potion of strong poison for 30 gold pieces
 28218 | Orc:4    | Bought a scroll of fog for 28 gold pieces
 28219 | Orc:4    | Bought a scroll of identify for 28 gold pieces
 28219 | Orc:4    | Bought a scroll of identify for 28 gold pieces
 28238 | Orc:4    | Bought a potion of speed for 82 gold pieces
 28276 | Orc:4    | Bought 8 curare-tipped needles for 62 gold pieces
 28297 | Orc:4    | Bought a scroll of fog for 26 gold pieces
 28339 | Orc:4    | Bought a potion of magic for 105 gold pieces
 29303 | D:12     | Noticed Joseph
 29545 | D:12     | Upgraded the game from 0.13-a0-2648-g56e3d78 to 0.13-a0-2657-gc1edc70
 29627 | D:12     | Reached skill level 19 in Stealth
 29707 | D:12     | Killed Joseph
 29744 | D:12     | Got a bloodstained long sword
 30291 | D:13     | Found a frozen archway.
 30302 | D:13     | Offered knowledge of Delayed Fireball by Vehumet.
 30346 | IceCv    | Entered an ice cave
 30555 | IceCv    | Reached skill level 5 in Short Blades
 30621 | IceCv    | Gained mutation: You are very frail (-20% HP). [mutagenic glow]
 31080 | IceCv    | Reached skill level 15 in Spellcasting
 31099 | IceCv    | Noticed a frost giant
 32786 | D:13     | Reached XP level 15. HP: 52/52 MP: 35/38
 33017 | D:13     | Identified the long sword "Pnoggoel" {venom, Str+1} (You found it on level 12 of the Dungeon)
 33232 | Lair:1   | Upgraded the game from 0.13-a0-2657-gc1edc70 to 0.13-a0-2672-g649a1be
 33399 | Swamp:1  | Entered Level 1 of the Swamp
 33586 | Swamp:1  | Offered knowledge of Conjure Ball Lightning by Vehumet.
 33802 | Swamp:1  | Reached skill level 10 in Dodging
 34988 | Elf:1    | Entered Level 1 of the Elven Halls
 35063 | Elf:1    | Found Ozoeh's Gadget Shop.
 35078 | Elf:1    | Noticed Kirke
 35080 | Elf:1    | Killed Kirke
 35337 | Elf:1    | Found Shuaqyesy's Magic Scroll Boutique.
 35577 | Elf:1    | Found Anwum's Antique Armour Boutique.
 36026 | Elf:1    | Bought a scroll of identify for 24 gold pieces
 36026 | Elf:1    | Bought a scroll of identify for 24 gold pieces
 36026 | Elf:1    | Bought 2 scrolls of teleportation for 72 gold pieces
 36026 | Elf:1    | Bought a scroll of identify for 24 gold pieces
 36452 | Elf:2    | Found a gateway to a bazaar.
 36485 | Bazaar   | Entered a bazaar
 36485 | Bazaar   | Found Preq's Antique Weapon Emporium.
 36485 | Bazaar   | Found Puefuodd's Gadget Shoppe.
 36486 | Bazaar   | Found Etaiz's General Store.
 36515 | Bazaar   | Bought a choko for 3 gold pieces
 36518 | Bazaar   | Bought a runed dagger for 56 gold pieces
 36518 | Bazaar   | Bought a glowing dwarven dagger for 67 gold pieces
 36687 | Elf:2    | Noticed Fannar
 36697 | Elf:2    | Killed Fannar
 37210 | Lair:1   | Upgraded the game from 0.13-a0-2672-g649a1be to 0.13-a0-2674-g157d67e
 38537 | D:4      | Bought a +2 dwarven buckler of poison resistance for 269 gold pieces
 38735 | D:3      | Killed Nudhul's ghost
 38827 | D:6      | Offered knowledge of Shatter by Vehumet.
 38827 | D:6      | Offered knowledge of Chain Lightning by Vehumet.
 38827 | D:6      | Offered knowledge of Tornado by Vehumet.
 40794 | Swamp:3  | Upgraded the game from 0.13-a0-2674-g157d67e to 0.13-a0-2676-gd993d8a
 41887 | Swamp:4  | Reached XP level 16. HP: 56/56 MP: 40/40
 42672 | Swamp:4  | Noticed Agnes
 42675 | Swamp:4  | Killed Agnes
 42870 | Swamp:4  | Gained mutation: You are weak (Str -1). [mutagenic glow]


Action                   |  1- 3 |  4- 6 |  7- 9 | 10-12 | 13-15 | 16-18 || total
-------------------------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------++-------
Melee: Dagger            |   101 |   178 |   265 |   429 |   954 |    29 ||  1956
       Sabre             |       |       |    26 |    11 |       |       ||    37
       Unarmed           |       |       |       |     1 |     1 |    10 ||    12
Throw: Dart              |    25 |     7 |     3 |     2 |       |       ||    37
 Cast: Corona            |    17 |    22 |     2 |       |     5 |       ||    46
       Ensorcelled Hiber |    16 |    27 |    94 |   239 |   408 |     9 ||   793
       Confuse           |       |     6 |    25 |    64 |   216 |     3 ||   314
       Invisibility      |       |       |     2 |    14 |    43 |     1 ||    60
       Stone Arrow       |       |       |       |    13 |    53 |       ||    66
       Conjure Flame     |       |       |       |     4 |     4 |       ||     8
       Iskenderun's Myst |       |       |       |       |    40 |       ||    40
       Orb of Destructio |       |       |       |       |     7 |       ||     7
Evoke: Wand              |       |     1 |     4 |     7 |     3 |       ||    15
  Use: Scroll            |       |     2 |     6 |     6 |    16 |     4 ||    34
       Potion            |       |       |     1 |       |     2 |       ||     3
 Stab: Sleeping          |    22 |    31 |    70 |   246 |   586 |    24 ||   979
       Confused          |       |     3 |    18 |    20 |    67 |     2 ||   110
       Invisible         |       |       |       |     8 |    17 |       ||    25
       Distracted        |       |       |       |     1 |     1 |       ||     2
       Fleeing           |       |       |       |       |     1 |       ||     1
       Paralysed         |       |       |       |       |     1 |       ||     1
"Maturity: among other things, the unclouded happiness of the child at play, who takes it for granted that he is at one with his play-mates."
- Dag Hammarskjöld

Ziggurat Zagger

Posts: 11111

Joined: Friday, 8th February 2013, 12:00

Post Monday, 12th August 2013, 07:57

Re: Invisibility seems worse at high spell power

rchandra wrote:I like ebarrett's solution, for simplicity - no reason that couldn't happen, even for 0.11.


I would still prefer ring of invisibility then. It's optimal to cancel invisibility as soon as you don't need it.

Dungeon Master

Posts: 553

Joined: Wednesday, 22nd December 2010, 10:12

Post Monday, 12th August 2013, 08:33

Re: Invisibility seems worse at high spell power

galehar wrote:
onton wrote:Whoa, seems messed up to me then. You definitely should not accumulate contamination from being visible.

You've read it backward. Having lots of magical contamination gives you glow, not the other way around.

Actually, there seems to be a worse problem with magical contamination. The scale is too coarse. When hasted or invisible, you have 6/10 chance of gaining a point every 20 turns. When not, you have 1/2 chance of losing a point every 20 turns. It means that it's much safer to cast invisibility on turn 101 than on turn 119 (game turn). So there's actually a lot of variability in the amount of contamination you can gain.
Would be better to have a smoother scale. Multiply everything by 100. You start yellow glow at 501 contamination instead of 6, and you gain 2 points per turn when hasted/invis instead of an average of 0.018. And it dissipate at 3 points per turn instead of an average of 0.025.

Then, we'll see if other changes are still needed.

Yeah this has been a problem for a while. I've had the problem of glow from one cast of invisibility, and in some cases I've timed the casting of it to try to avoid this. It's easier with a spell like invis, since you generally cast it out of combat.

Tomb Titivator

Posts: 799

Joined: Saturday, 23rd February 2013, 22:25

Post Monday, 12th August 2013, 17:50

Re: Invisibility seems worse at high spell power

Perhaps have amount of contam gained decrease based on spellpower? It'd reward having a higher magic skill, and that's what's supposed to happen allready.

Swamp Slogger

Posts: 176

Joined: Thursday, 13th September 2012, 22:59

Post Tuesday, 13th August 2013, 06:37

Re: Invisibility seems worse at high spell power

How about invisibility turns off automatically if it would give glow above grey?
User avatar

Dungeon Master

Posts: 4031

Joined: Thursday, 16th December 2010, 20:37

Location: France

Post Friday, 16th August 2013, 21:25

Re: Invisibility seems worse at high spell power

<+Grunt> You dereference an invalid pointer! Ouch! That really hurt! The game dies...

For this message the author galehar has received thanks: 4
Mumcon, prozacelf, Siegurt, Styro

o_O

Snake Sneak

Posts: 100

Joined: Friday, 30th September 2011, 07:08

Post Saturday, 17th August 2013, 01:49

Re: Invisibility seems worse at high spell power

What it more spellpower gave less glow. It would add another balancing lever to invis and haste too, so they could remain at the reasonably easy to cast lvl 6 but have serious downsides if cast without very high spellpower.

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