Spider branch


Although the central place for design discussion is ##crawl-dev on freenode, some may find it helpful to discuss requests and suggestions here first.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Friday, 23rd March 2012, 22:19

Spider branch

Just did the new Spider Nest branch. I like it a lot. Orb spiders especially are really well done - very nice tactical challenge. The branch as a whole and the end seemed relatively easy (though I was doing it at XL 18), but it could also be nice to have an "easy" rune for less-skilled players to get - gives a real feeling of accomplishment when you get one.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Friday, 23rd March 2012, 22:22

Re: Feedback on Trunk deployment (.11)

Don't expect it to stay easy. A large portion of the branch dynamic isn't implemented yet, including the themed boss rush.

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Post Friday, 23rd March 2012, 23:31

Re: Feedback on Trunk deployment (.11)

Grimm wrote:Just did the new Spider Nest branch. I like it a lot. Orb spiders especially are really well done - very nice tactical challenge. The branch as a whole and the end seemed relatively easy (though I was doing it at XL 18), but it could also be nice to have an "easy" rune for less-skilled players to get - gives a real feeling of accomplishment when you get one.


I like the Spider's Nest too, I think it has a lot of potential. Right now, it's kind of easy, and also kind of same-y, since it's mostly "get trapped in a web, get poisoned, bitten, repeat". Hopefully that'll improve with more varied creatures, stuff like orb spiders and ghost moths put a little tactics in there. I like that orb spiders can't be lured upstairs, since they won't get near you, and I plan on making a vault or two to exploit this as soon as possible.
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Post Saturday, 24th March 2012, 00:44

Re: Feedback on Trunk deployment (.11)

The spider nest is a draft which is slowly taking shape. For now, evilmike is working on the monster set and Wensley is doing a moth of suppression which cancels the effects of magical items (rP!!).
We're certainly not aiming for an easy rune. Nor a hard one, the Lair branch difficulties should be as close as possible.
<+Grunt> You dereference an invalid pointer! Ouch! That really hurt! The game dies...

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Post Saturday, 24th March 2012, 01:37

Re: Feedback on Trunk deployment (.11)

nicolae wrote:I like the Spider's Nest too, I think it has a lot of potential. Right now, it's kind of easy, and also kind of same-y, since it's mostly "get trapped in a web, get poisoned, bitten, repeat". Hopefully that'll improve with more varied creatures, stuff like orb spiders and ghost moths put a little tactics in there. I like that orb spiders can't be lured upstairs, since they won't get near you, and I plan on making a vault or two to exploit this as soon as possible.

Thanks for the vaults, this always helps with making a branch more interesting. One thing that there could be more of is minivaults - there are currently a lot of "normal" vaults (ones with ORIENT line) but not a lot of minivaults.

When it comes to the difficulty of the branch, this is being worked on. I'd like to increase the number of monsters by about 1.5x or so, by adding more bands of spiders (that is, have them spawn in groups rather than solo). Just need to find the right numbers, and also keep the xp at a reasonable level. Of course, keep in mind, it's still a lair branch - at xl20 it's always going to be easy.

For the monsters themselves, the various spiders are still fairly similar (fast movement, melee only). Their attacks are all pretty different now, though - wolf spiders hit a lot harder than the others, redbacks can't be fully resisted and come in large swarms, jumping spiders hit you with ensnaring attacks, and tarantellas confuse. The two really boring ones in my opinion are trapdoor spiders and vanilla spiders, but at least the former "hide" and can be interesting outside of Spider. I don't have any more radical changes planned for these monsters right now... just some stat tweaks and stuff like that.

The new moth enemy should change things up a bit, although it won't be super common. I also think there is room for another ranged/"caster" enemy, but I currently have no ideas. Maybe some kind of summoner, but that gives me nightmares of ADOM...

There's also the option of using existing monsters. Moths of wrath would be a controversial choice (currently they are extremely rare... it's been argued they should stay as zot monsters). Using more ghost moths is also a possiblity, although I like having them mainly as branch-end threats.

Anyway, those are just my current ideas about Spider. It's still a long way from being complete (there's still no hellspider).

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Saturday, 24th March 2012, 01:57

Re: Feedback on Trunk deployment (.11)

evilmike wrote:I also think there is room for another ranged/"caster" enemy, but I currently have no ideas.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spitting_spider

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Post Saturday, 24th March 2012, 02:01

Re: Feedback on Trunk deployment (.11)

evilmike wrote:The new moth enemy should change things up a bit, although it won't be super common. I also think there is room for another ranged/"caster" enemy, but I currently have no ideas. Maybe some kind of summoner, but that gives me nightmares of ADOM...


I liked the couple of ranged spider ideas on the wiki; one throws a kind of "cotton bolas" and one fires barbs. They're both based on real spiders.

There's also an idea for an "egg-laden" spider which mechanically would work like a summoner.

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Post Saturday, 24th March 2012, 02:14

Re: Feedback on Trunk deployment (.11)

Grimm wrote:
evilmike wrote:I also think there is room for another ranged/"caster" enemy, but I currently have no ideas.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spitting_spider

Interesting animal, although I don't think poison spit would be good. Nagas do this already.

mumra wrote:
evilmike wrote:The new moth enemy should change things up a bit, although it won't be super common. I also think there is room for another ranged/"caster" enemy, but I currently have no ideas. Maybe some kind of summoner, but that gives me nightmares of ADOM...


I liked the couple of ranged spider ideas on the wiki; one throws a kind of "cotton bolas" and one fires barbs. They're both based on real spiders.

There's also an idea for an "egg-laden" spider which mechanically would work like a summoner.

Spitting barbs doesn't sound too interesting to me. What I'd like is something that encourages movement (orb spiders do this well) or something that does more than just "x damage". Basically, barbs sound like "it's a manticore but on 's'". As for a monster that *shoots* webs (like that bolas spider, I guess), Arachne already has a spell like this. Probably wouldn't want to step on her toes (if spiders have toes).

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Post Saturday, 24th March 2012, 03:00

Re: Feedback on Trunk deployment (.11)

evilmike wrote:
Grimm wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spitting_spider

Interesting animal, although I don't think poison spit would be good. Nagas do this already.


That article says the spit "congeals on contact into a venomous and sticky mass". This could be a status that slows movement, making it harder to dodge orbs.

Another idea is the "swarm of tiny spiders". There's an old proposal for swarms which was a bit complicated but there could be a simpler version: a single-tile "spider swarm" monster with high EV that is itself summoned by an egg-laden "mother" spider. The swarm rushes you, and on contact you get the "swarmed" status, and the actual swarm monster is removed from the map. While swarmed you take damage over time (it could also affect accuracy and casting success, spiders are swarming all over you and in/under your armour and it's very distracting!). Movement will shake off some of the spiders, so the strength of the swarm effect gradually reduces and eventually dissipates with each step.

evilmike wrote:Probably wouldn't want to step on her toes (if spiders have toes).


If they do, there are a lot to step on ...

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Saturday, 24th March 2012, 03:03

Re: Feedback on Trunk deployment (.11)

How about a parasitoid wasp for your summoner? The existing wasps are already fairly dangerous; this wasp would lay eggs in the spiders and bugs endemic to the branch, which would chew their way out of their host's corpse when you kill it, swarming you immediately. Up until you kill the host, it looks like any other local monster. For bonus points, perhaps the infestation status of a monster can be retroactively determined at the moment of death, meaning that uniques that spawn in Spider and are defeated by you might suddenly be devoured from within while you watch. The numbers of wasps spawned would vary according to the difficulty of the host, so a regular old infested spider only spawns one or two wasps, but infected Mennas blankets the screen in super-fast angry wasps with curare stings.
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Abyss Ambulator

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Post Saturday, 24th March 2012, 03:41

Re: Feedback on Trunk deployment (.11)

KoboldLord wrote:For bonus points, perhaps the infestation status of a monster can be retroactively determined at the moment of death

Schroedinger's spider.

Interesting idea, but it feels a little gimmicky. Not sure what the gameplay value would be other than to encourage not killing difficult mobs.

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Post Saturday, 24th March 2012, 08:18

Re: Spider branch

evilmike: I just wrote up an idea I had kicking around for a while for a 3x3 tile Giant Spider. It has some very unique mechanics to keep the player on the move, even ranged / casters - but I realise it's not exactly trivial to implement! Would appreciate feedback anyway - it's on: https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:dungeon:branch:spider&#monsters

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Post Saturday, 24th March 2012, 08:33

Re: Feedback on Trunk deployment (.11)

evilmike wrote:Thanks for the vaults, this always helps with making a branch more interesting. One thing that there could be more of is minivaults - there are currently a lot of "normal" vaults (ones with ORIENT line) but not a lot of minivaults.


I'll give it a shot.

The new moth enemy should change things up a bit, although it won't be super common. I also think there is room for another ranged/"caster" enemy, but I currently have no ideas. Maybe some kind of summoner, but that gives me nightmares of ADOM...


I had a couple ranged ideas.
1) A "lasso spider", similar to the spitting/bola spider ideas. It throws a wad of sticky web on the end of a long string at you, and if it hits, instead of doing damage, you're "lassoed", which is a combination of mesmerized and (damageless) constriction. The spider reels you in while you struggle to get free, and until you break the hold, using the same mechanics as breaking strong constriction, you can't move away from the spider. Then when you're right next to it, it bites you with big pointy fangs and venom happens, etc. Getting lassoed could be combined with other ideas, like web ensnarement or slowing.

2) Harvestmen spiders aren't technically even spiders, and are pretty harmless; they don't even have venom. But Crawl can take the name and crank it up a bit; harvester spiders aren't venomous but they have massive scythe-shaped fangs, and much like other scythes in Crawl, the scythe fangs of harvester spiders have reaching, though reaching isn't quite the same as ranged.

3) Bombardier beetles spray hot chemicals at attackers; a Crawl version could spray at you, doing fire damage and possibly a small chance of corrosion damage. When killed, the volatile chemicals go "boom" and the beetle explodes as if Inner Flamed. (It's not a spider, though.)

A few non-casting/ranged ideas, but I wanted to get them out of my head. I tried to make these more tactical.
1) In a branch where most things are susceptible to poison, I wanted to think up some ideas to make venom/poison attacks less of a super obvious choice. But just giving things poison immunity is boring. So I tried to think of ideas where a monster isn't immune to poison, but becomes worse for the player while poisoned.
One idea: a spider which has evolved an ingenious way to deal with foreign toxins, by using those toxins in its bite. When non-poisoned, its bite delivers a mild poison, which can be resisted with rPois, similar to every other poison attack. However, when poisoned, its bite becomes worse: it delivers irresistible strong poison, and on a successful strong-poison bite it has a 50/50 chance of curing itself of poison. The more the spider is poisoned, the more deadly its bite becomes, perhaps eventually even causing rotting or stat drain. There isn't a real world analogue to it, exactly.
Another idea was to have something bad happen when a poisoned monster dies, but the only thing I could think of was making poison clouds, which would probably turn out to backfire in the player's favor in the Spider's Nest.

2) Ants sometimes farm aphids, which are little insects which eat sap and produce a nectar which the ants drink. Some colonies of ants have specialized ants called repletes, which drink up nectar until their abdomens are distended and transparent, and cling to the walls of the nest serving as living bottles. Either way, the idea of having a monster in the nest devoted entirely to feeding other members of the nest was interesting to me. Aphids (or replete ant, or even a replete spider, or whatever) use the keep-distance AI, and have pathetic attacks. However, any arthropod next to an aphid can "drink" from it on their turn, healing damage, so you'd want to kill the aphids as soon as possible.

mumra wrote:evilmike: I just wrote up an idea I had kicking around for a while for a 3x3 tile Giant Spider. It has some very unique mechanics to keep the player on the move, even ranged / casters - but I realise it's not exactly trivial to implement! Would appreciate feedback anyway - it's on: https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:dungeon:branch:spider&#monsters


Oh god, IVAN...

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Post Saturday, 24th March 2012, 13:25

Re: Spider branch

I like the bombardier beetle and aphid idea; the lasso spider is similar to a plant idea I had (with kraken tentacle-like vines).

One mechanic insects use is chemical communication. So I was thinking of an insect that's not that strong individually but is strong in packs. These monsters spawn in packs but wander off on their own. Killing it, however, attracts every monster of its type over a decent-sized portion of the level to the spot where it's killed. This is designed to break up the whole "kill the monsters and immediately rest up" style of play.

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Post Saturday, 24th March 2012, 14:46

Re: Spider branch

Tiber wrote:I like the bombardier beetle and aphid idea; the lasso spider is similar to a plant idea I had (with kraken tentacle-like vines).

One mechanic insects use is chemical communication. So I was thinking of an insect that's not that strong individually but is strong in packs. These monsters spawn in packs but wander off on their own. Killing it, however, attracts every monster of its type over a decent-sized portion of the level to the spot where it's killed. This is designed to break up the whole "kill the monsters and immediately rest up" style of play.


You could probably use this for existing species that start off in swarms and then break up, i.e., killer bees and the wasps.

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Post Saturday, 24th March 2012, 14:56

Re: Spider branch

I think it's a good suggestion for turning an otherwise unremarkable lone creature into a potential "oh shit" situation by itself.

One way to visually represent this could be for dead hive insects to release clouds of pheromones upon dying (which in turn dissipate over time). The more clouds in an area the more insects of the corresponding type are attracted (and possibly spawned outside LOS). Queen Bees could possibly spawn clouds upon seeing the PC to further differentiate them from worker bees (this is how they ostensibly control their Hive in real life as well).

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Post Saturday, 24th March 2012, 18:44

Re: Spider branch

Ideas:

Monster: Monster that berserks when player is poisoned.

Vault: Columns in the middle of a water pool that a ranged spider is clinging to.

Monster: Summoning monster that summons (throws) eggs next to the player. If player remains next to the egg, it hatches quickly. If player moves away, the egg withers and dies.

Monster: Summoning monster that summons very weak (baby) spiders. Weak spider turn into a strong spider 8 to 10 turns later.

Monster: Egg that starts to hatch as soon as it hears the player. If not killed quickly (no attack, lots of armor), pops into spider. Not interesting on their own, but fun in vaults. (Vault: Room with three clusters of eggs.) (Vault: Spiders defending eggs; between entrance and eggs.)


Crazier ideas:

Webbed terrain on which spiders move and attack faster. (Destroyable? By Fire? Created by spiders dynamically?)

Webbing locking down limbs:
- legs: no movement, full attack/casting ability
- right arm: full movement, no attack (except head buts, kicks, tail slaps, etc.), no casting
- left arm: full movement, no shield bonus, no two-handed attacks, full casting
- head: random movement/attack, no casting

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Post Saturday, 24th March 2012, 19:15

Re: Spider branch

AluminumAngel wrote:Vault: Columns in the middle of a water pool that a ranged spider is clinging to.


Oh, I like this idea. I might give it a shot, if you don't mind, though I promised myself I would cut back on orb spider vaults and there aren't many other ranged spiders yet. Does Arachne cling?

Webbed terrain on which spiders move and attack faster. (Destroyable? By Fire? Created by spiders dynamically?)


Well, technically, spiders already move faster through webbed terrain, since they're immune to web traps.

Webbing locking down limbs:
- legs: no movement, full attack/casting ability
- right arm: full movement, no attack (except head buts, kicks, tail slaps, etc.), no casting
- left arm: full movement, no shield bonus, no two-handed attacks, full casting
- head: random movement/attack, no casting


That's probably a little too complicated.
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Post Saturday, 24th March 2012, 19:43

Re: Spider branch

Ideas:

A spider that works as a reverse boring beetle. Instead of digging out the level, it fills it in. Either with the pre-existing web traps, or something more solid you can't walk through and have to destroy to pass (basically, web flavored plants).

Even better, ambush vaults with lua magic web traps. You enter and webbing descends to cut you off, or a web-laying spider drops from the ceiling and starts rushing away from you down the entry corridor.

Fire themed spider. If you poison it, it responds with a modified monster version of ignite poison, burning off the poison it's system in a self-centered fireball (instead of hitting everything but itself in LOS).

Spider ballistomycete farm.
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Abyss Ambulator

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Post Saturday, 24th March 2012, 20:29

Re: Spider branch

The web traps already spawn more and more the longer you're on the level.

Anyhow, my thoughts after completing spider 3 times and dying there once (to qiglaf):
- With rPois, Spider:1-4 are fairly easy and straightforward; comparable to swamp:1-4 but with less variable difficulty and annoyance.
- With sInv, Spider:5 is quite easy for reasonably powerful melee fighters; orb spiders and tarantellas are the main dangers (if you can't handle melee against a ghost moth or emperor scorpion, what are you doing in Spider:5?). Conjurers might have a harder time with ghost moths, but can manage it with care.
- Without sInv (or comparable), Spider:5 is scary for just about anyone under xl20-ish. Even if you know exactly where ghost moths are, their invisibility makes them significantly harder to hit and potentially able to flee more easily, complicating things. Having your mp drained with no clear source will always be dangerous, of course. It's possible to do spider:5 without sInv, but my one character that tried it had more trouble there than on vault:8.
- Without rPois, Spider would be either incredibly obnoxious or suicidal, depending on character strength and player skill.

I think it matches up quite well with the other Lair branches; if added difficulty is called for, I think moths of wrath would do the job quite well. They already are not exclusive to Zot -- one Trog temple has one, and there might be other vaults. I don't think there is much need to add several complex new mechanics when existing ones work quite well already.

Really, the only things Spider needs are more rune vaults, and those will come with time.

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Post Saturday, 24th March 2012, 20:56

Re: Spider branch

Blade wrote:stuff

Could you tell me which server you were playing on? (Even better, go ingame and press ?V, then tell me which version it is)

Lots of small changes have been made to the branch recently and I think cao is still out of date. Knowing which state of the branch your feedback applies to will be helpful.

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Post Saturday, 24th March 2012, 22:31

Re: Spider branch

minmay wrote:Does it even need more rune vaults? Snake had just one vault for a very long time.

It's not super high priority but I'd like to have at least two. One is enough for the time being though (especially when the overall threat for the branch end is still being worked on).
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Post Saturday, 24th March 2012, 22:45

Re: Spider branch

evilmike wrote:
Blade wrote:stuff

Could you tell me which server you were playing on? (Even better, go ingame and press ?V, then tell me which version it is)

Lots of small changes have been made to the branch recently and I think cao is still out of date. Knowing which state of the branch your feedback applies to will be helpful.

I play on CAO.

My first rune grab:
version 0.11-a0-550-ge3ff97a
Second and third:
version 0.11-a0-616-gd3299fb

I've never had ensnaring jumping spiders; not sure what else I've missed.

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Post Saturday, 24th March 2012, 23:22

Re: Spider branch

evilmike wrote:
minmay wrote:Does it even need more rune vaults? Snake had just one vault for a very long time.

It's not super high priority but I'd like to have at least two. One is enough for the time being though (especially when the overall threat for the branch end is still being worked on).


how's dis

  Code:
NAME: nicolae_spider_rune
PLACE: Spider:5
ORIENT: float
KITEM: O = gossamer rune of Zot 
TAGS: no_pool_fixup no_monster_gen
MONS: tarantella, orb spider / nothing w:5, ghost moth, trapdoor spider / nothing
MONS: wolf spider / redback / tarantella / jumping spider
MONS: emperor scorpion / red wasp w:20 / yellow wasp w:5
KMONS: O = trapdoor spider
KFEAT: ' = W w:30 / floor w:5 / web w:5
KFEAT: ^ = web
NSUBST: ' = 1:3 / 7:6 / 3:5
MAP
    xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
    xXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
    xXxx5..<5..XxxxxX
    xXx.5.1xxx5XxxxxX
    xXx..2wwwwwX''''X
    xXx.1ww4^.wX''''X
    xX.5xw.www4+''''X
    xX.5ww.wxwwX''''X
    xX.xw4ww12xX''''X
    xX.5w^wx5..XXXX+X
    xX.xw.ww..5XXOX.X
X+++xX1.ww.w1..X..X.X
X...XXx.xw^wx.XX5...X   
X555Xwwwww.wx<XwwwwwX
X...+...^4wwx.XwwwwwX     
X.2.Xwwwwww12.X2www2X
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
ENDMAP


I can punch it up a bit if it needs to be harder/easier. If it completely sucks I've still got some other spider's nest vaults.

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Post Saturday, 24th March 2012, 23:27

Re: Spider branch

nicolae wrote:
evilmike wrote:
minmay wrote:Does it even need more rune vaults? Snake had just one vault for a very long time.

It's not super high priority but I'd like to have at least two. One is enough for the time being though (especially when the overall threat for the branch end is still being worked on).


how's dis

  Code:
NAME: nicolae_spider_rune
PLACE: Spider:5
ORIENT: float
KITEM: O = gossamer rune of Zot 
TAGS: no_pool_fixup no_monster_gen
MONS: tarantella, orb spider / nothing w:5, ghost moth, trapdoor spider / nothing
MONS: wolf spider / redback / tarantella / jumping spider
MONS: emperor scorpion / red wasp w:20 / yellow wasp w:5
KMONS: O = trapdoor spider
KFEAT: ' = W w:30 / floor w:5 / web w:5
KFEAT: ^ = web
NSUBST: ' = 1:3 / 7:6 / 3:5
MAP
    xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
    xXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
    xXxx5..<5..XxxxxX
    xXx.5.1xxx5XxxxxX
    xXx..2wwwwwX''''X
    xXx.1ww4^.wX''''X
    xX.5xw.www4+''''X
    xX.5ww.wxwwX''''X
    xX.xw4ww12xX''''X
    xX.5w^wx5..XXXX+X
    xX.xw.ww..5XXOX.X
X+++xX1.ww.w1..X..X.X
X...XXx.xw^wx.XX5...X   
X555Xwwwww.wx<XwwwwwX
X...+...^4wwx.XwwwwwX     
X.2.Xwwwwww12.X2www2X
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
ENDMAP


I can punch it up a bit if it needs to be harder/easier. If it completely sucks I've still got some other spider's nest vaults.

Maybe a bit small for a branch ending. Keeping the difficulty high is good too, since this is guarding a rune. Compare other lair branch endings when it comes to difficulty (and don't be afraid to make it harder than the currently existing Spider ending, if you feel like it).

I'd suggest using stone instead of permarock too - permarock is for stuff that should *never* be breached under any circumstance. For a lair branch, stone is enough.

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Post Saturday, 24th March 2012, 23:36

Re: Spider branch

evilmike wrote:Maybe a bit small for a branch ending. Keeping the difficulty high is good too, since this is guarding a rune. Compare other lair branch endings when it comes to difficulty (and don't be afraid to make it harder than the currently existing Spider ending, if you feel like it).

I'd suggest using stone instead of permarock too - permarock is for stuff that should *never* be breached under any circumstance. For a lair branch, stone is enough.


A couple of the other Lair branch rune vaults seemed pretty small, but I'll go over them again for more insight when I'm less tired. The version I posted was toned down from my original layout, anyway. (I'm not super great at estimating appropriate vault difficulty.) I'll fix it up later.

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Post Sunday, 25th March 2012, 00:07

Re: Spider branch

nicolae wrote:
evilmike wrote:Maybe a bit small for a branch ending. Keeping the difficulty high is good too, since this is guarding a rune. Compare other lair branch endings when it comes to difficulty (and don't be afraid to make it harder than the currently existing Spider ending, if you feel like it).

I'd suggest using stone instead of permarock too - permarock is for stuff that should *never* be breached under any circumstance. For a lair branch, stone is enough.


A couple of the other Lair branch rune vaults seemed pretty small, but I'll go over them again for more insight when I'm less tired. The version I posted was toned down from my original layout, anyway. (I'm not super great at estimating appropriate vault difficulty.) I'll fix it up later.

Yeah, it's hard to get a feel for the difficulty of something. It helps to run through it on a few wizard-mode characters. The best way to do this is probably to pick a character log file and then load it with &# (this will give you its stats and skills). Then give yourself some items and run through the vault. This is a fairly crude method and is no substitute for real gameplay, though (luckily we have the online servers for that).

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Post Sunday, 25th March 2012, 00:22

Re: Spider branch

evilmike wrote:
nicolae wrote:
evilmike wrote:Maybe a bit small for a branch ending. Keeping the difficulty high is good too, since this is guarding a rune. Compare other lair branch endings when it comes to difficulty (and don't be afraid to make it harder than the currently existing Spider ending, if you feel like it).

I'd suggest using stone instead of permarock too - permarock is for stuff that should *never* be breached under any circumstance. For a lair branch, stone is enough.


A couple of the other Lair branch rune vaults seemed pretty small, but I'll go over them again for more insight when I'm less tired. The version I posted was toned down from my original layout, anyway. (I'm not super great at estimating appropriate vault difficulty.) I'll fix it up later.

Yeah, it's hard to get a feel for the difficulty of something. It helps to run through it on a few wizard-mode characters. The best way to do this is probably to pick a character log file and then load it with &# (this will give you its stats and skills). Then give yourself some items and run through the vault. This is a fairly crude method and is no substitute for real gameplay, though (luckily we have the online servers for that).


Ah, I didn't know about the &#. I usually just did &^L, &A, acquired a bunch of items, and went to town, so I wasn't sure if my experiences reflected actual gameplay or just Wizard Gameplay.

Snake Sneak

Posts: 103

Joined: Thursday, 21st July 2011, 15:27

Post Sunday, 25th March 2012, 11:00

Re: Feedback on Trunk deployment (.11)

evilmike wrote: One thing that there could be more of is minivaults - there are currently a lot of "normal" vaults (ones with ORIENT line) but not a lot of minivaults.


Last fall I put up a bunch of little vaults, including 3 spider minis. They've been left to wither it seems like and I could revisit them to improve them if I had some constructive criticism. They're all here:
https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4721
User avatar

Dungeon Master

Posts: 4031

Joined: Thursday, 16th December 2010, 20:37

Location: France

Post Sunday, 25th March 2012, 11:56

Re: Spider branch

nicolae wrote:Ah, I didn't know about the &#.

Probably because it's new :)
<+Grunt> You dereference an invalid pointer! Ouch! That really hurt! The game dies...

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1888

Joined: Saturday, 9th July 2011, 20:57

Post Sunday, 25th March 2012, 13:22

Re: Spider branch

galehar wrote:
nicolae wrote:Ah, I didn't know about the &#.

Probably because it's new :)


I assure you, if it had been a feature since 0.4 I probably would have still missed it.

Guppyfry wrote:
evilmike wrote: One thing that there could be more of is minivaults - there are currently a lot of "normal" vaults (ones with ORIENT line) but not a lot of minivaults.


Last fall I put up a bunch of little vaults, including 3 spider minis. They've been left to wither it seems like and I could revisit them to improve them if I had some constructive criticism. They're all here:
https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4721


I like 'em, especially the spider minis and the themed shops. But you've got at least one bug:

NAME: guppyfry_shop_fishing
[...]
KMONS: 2 = place:Shoals:1

Slime Squisher

Posts: 369

Joined: Saturday, 3rd September 2011, 18:22

Post Sunday, 25th March 2012, 14:13

Re: Spider branch

haven't played the spider branch yet so take my suggestions with a grain of salt but what about some sort of starvation theme with spiders? Spewing spiders that make you sick with nausea. Bone spiders have poison that would accelerate your hunger because they feed on the marrow from your bones. Snatchers are a really fast type of spider that snatch (apportation) the corpses from under your feet and run off with them to feed the queen. I dunno if this would be fun or annoying though really.

Shoals Surfer

Posts: 255

Joined: Sunday, 24th April 2011, 04:13

Post Sunday, 25th March 2012, 14:53

Re: Spider branch

The Spider Branch kind of feels like the Orcish Mine's evil twin. A whole lot of spiders that are varied, but not really threatening in most situations. Then I run into an invisible orc knight that also drains my MP and poisons me. And I don't appear to be able to outrun it. Oh, look, I'm dead.

Snake Sneak

Posts: 103

Joined: Thursday, 21st July 2011, 15:27

Post Sunday, 25th March 2012, 17:46

Re: Spider branch

nicolae wrote:I like 'em, especially the spider minis and the themed shops. But you've got at least one bug:

NAME: guppyfry_shop_fishing
[...]
KMONS: 2 = place:Shoals:1


That line works when I test the vault. It creates a random monster from the monster pool of shoals:1. With the lines below it makes it so that you get fish if the shop shows up really early, but otherwise you get shoals stuff like merfolk or turtles.

# depth controls the monster type
: if you.absdepth() < 8 then
SUBST: 2 = 1
: end

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1888

Joined: Saturday, 9th July 2011, 20:57

Post Sunday, 25th March 2012, 18:12

Re: Spider branch

Guppyfry wrote:That line works when I test the vault. It creates a random monster from the monster pool of shoals:1.


Oh, damn, I didn't know that. Cool!

Dungeon Master

Posts: 1531

Joined: Saturday, 5th March 2011, 06:29

Post Sunday, 25th March 2012, 18:55

Re: Spider branch

First playthrough of Spiders Nest, Windows Tiles 0.11-a0-728

I decided to just play through with a character and see what happened. Decided to have a go at a Demigod Wizard. Managed to get one off the ground and made it to Lair - what showed up but Spiders Nest. Interesting bug: two entrances to Slime ...

I managed to clear Lair but Orc got a bit tricky around level 3/4 due to a slightly awkward level layout and an Iron Troll. Mostly I was walking over everything at this point. I'd been lucky to find a cTele ring early on which combined with Blink from my wizard book was giving me a pretty strong edge, in open terrain. I also had a nice rPois hat. So at around that point I ventured into Spider, around XL:15.

This is a slightly unusual character for me, I'm hybridising into polearms with strong hexes for battle support. Quite often I'm up close and meleeing (although I have lightning bolt and fireball which can handle small groups).

I'll be honest, I don't think I've ever had so many close calls so close together. It's like every time I venture a bit further, another load of monsters swarm me; sometimes I manage to take them down, sometimes I'm getting overwhelmed and beating a hasty retreat. Sometimes I retreat only to find another herd of something spawned on the previously-cleared level and I find myself retreating 2 or 3 levels at once. Actually this was happening a lot in Lair as well; massive packs of elephants and green rats suddenly appearing in areas I think are safe. Even with semi-controlled blinks available most of the time I'm still getting into near-death situations regularly ... or maybe that's just bad play, but I'm having fun ;)

What's really interesting is that each battle is very distinct based on the specific combination of monsters that turn up at any given time. The maps are great as well, the delve layout seems to be doing a really good job - and the lack of any corridors whatsoever means you can constantly get swarmed. The combination of webs, orbs, jumping spiders, water meant that even with my blinking I could still get into trouble. I definitely think a few more elements wouldn't go amiss, it's getting a bit samey after 3 levels (and this is only first playthrough). Although the branch still manages to have surprises.

So what people are saying about it being easy I don't really see. I've left Spider for a bit to do more D so I haven't even cleared the branch end yet.

Character dump:
  Code:
 Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.11-a0-728-g7daf38e character file.

Wiznix the Conjurer (Demigod Wizard)               Turns: 84781, Time: 07:23:03

HP 131/131 (135) AC 15     Str 20      XL: 17   Next: 24%
MP  37/37        EV 21     Int 30      God:
Gold 745         SH 16     Dex 20      Spells: 12 memorised,  2 levels left

Res.Fire  : . . .   See Invis. : +    a - +4,+2 trident
Res.Cold  : . . .   Warding    : . .  l - +0 robe of Action {Str+5 Int+2 Dam+4}
Life Prot.: . . .   Conserve   : +    I - +2 elf buckler {AC+3}
Res.Acid. : + . .   Res.Corr.  : +    z - +1 helmet "Xeg Anub" {+Blink rPois MR Str+
Res.Poison: +       Clarity    : .    k - +1 cloak {rCorr, Cons}
Res.Elec. : .       Spirit.Shd : .    d - +2 pair of gauntlets {Str+3}
Sust.Abil.: . .     Stasis     : .    o - +1 pair of orc boots
Res.Mut.  : +       Ctrl.Telep.: +    r - amulet of resist mutation
Res.Rott. : .       Levitation : .    F - ring of teleport control
Saprovore : . . .   Ctrl.Flight: .    N - ring of see invisible

@: very resistant to hostile enchantments, quite stealthy
A: berserk 1, blurry vision 1, Str -1
a: Evoke Blink


You are on level 17 of the Dungeon.
You are hungry.

You have visited 5 branches of the dungeon, and seen 35 of its levels.
You have visited 1 Labyrinth.
You have visited 1 portal chamber: sewer.

You have collected 2721 gold pieces.
You have spent 1996 gold pieces at shops.

Inventory:

Hand weapons
 a - a +4,+2 trident (weapon)
 b - the +6 blowgun "Hydraslayer" {speed, rElec}
   (You found it in a Labyrinth)   
   
   Attacks with this weapon take half as long, but cause slightly less damage.
   
   It insulates you from electricity.
 e - an uncursed orcish morningstar of venom
 x - an uncursed sabre of electrocution
 y - a scimitar of flaming
 W - an uncursed demon blade
 X - an uncursed quarterstaff of crushing
Missiles
 g - 74 poisoned +0 needles
 m - 3 curare-tipped +2 needles
 u - 18 runed darts (quivered)
 Y - 7 javelins
Armour
 d - a +2 pair of gauntlets of strength (worn)
 k - a +1 cloak of preservation (worn)
 l - the +0 robe of Action (worn) {Str+5 Int+2 Dam+4}
   (You bought it in a shop on level 9 of the Dungeon)   
   
   It affects your strength (+5).
   It affects your intelligence (+2).
   It affects your damage-dealing abilities (+4).
 o - a +1 pair of orcish boots (worn)
 z - the +1 helmet "Xeg Anub" (worn) {+Blink rPois MR Str+2}
   (You bought it in a shop on level 11 of the Dungeon)   
   
   It affects your strength (+2).
   It protects you from poison.
   It increases your resistance to enchantments.
   It lets you blink.
 I - a +2 elven buckler of protection (worn)
Magical devices
 c - a wand of lightning (7)
 f - a wand of teleportation (5)
 O - a wand of disintegration {zapped: 1}
 Q - a wand of cold {zapped: 3}
Comestibles
 j - 2 meat rations
 n - 8 honeycombs
 L - 11 grapes
 T - 3 chokos
 U - 8 bread rations
Scrolls
 i - 2 scrolls of blinking
 v - a scroll of fog
 D - a scroll of magic mapping
 H - 2 scrolls of remove curse
 M - a scroll of recharging
 P - a scroll of fear
 R - 3 scrolls of teleportation
 V - 5 scrolls of identify
Jewellery
 h - an uncursed ring of sustenance
 r - an amulet of resist mutation (around neck)
 s - an uncursed ring of levitation
 t - the ring "Kyluevua" {rPois rF++}
   (You bought it in a shop on level 4 of the Orcish Mines)   
   
   [ring of poison resistance]
   
   It greatly protects you from fire.
 F - a ring of teleport control (right hand)
 N - a ring of see invisible (left hand)
 S - an uncursed ring of magical power
Potions
 p - 4 potions of curing
 q - 3 potions of heal wounds
 w - a potion of resistance
 A - 3 potions of magic
 B - 2 potions of restore abilities
 C - 2 potions of brilliance
 E - a potion of speed
 G - a potion of levitation
 J - a potion of might
Magical staves
 K - a staff of power


   Skills:
 * Level 11.4 Fighting
 + Level 5.5 Polearms
 + Level 4.7 Throwing
 - Level 5.3 Armour
 + Level 9.8 Dodging
 + Level 4.2 Stealth
 + Level 3.6 Stabbing
 * Level 8.5 Shields
 + Level 1.8 Traps & Doors
 + Level 12.1 Spellcasting
 + Level 12.3 Conjurations
 * Level 11.1 Hexes
 * Level 7.6 Charms
 + Level 1.1 Summonings
 * Level 8.7 Translocations
 + Level 3.9 Fire Magic
 + Level 5.8 Air Magic
 + Level 3.3 Poison Magic
 + Level 1.1 Evocations


You have 2 spell levels left.
You know the following spells:

 Your Spells              Type           Power        Failure   Level  Hunger
a - Invisibility          Hex            #######..    6%          6    Honeycomb
b - Blink                 Tloc           N/A          1%          2    None
c - Slow                  Hex            #######..    1%          2    None
d - Repel Missiles        Chrm/Air       #######...   1%          2    None
e - Mephitic Cloud        Conj/Pois/Air  #######..    1%          3    None
g - Call Imp              Summ           #####.....   2%          2    None
h - Cause Fear            Hex            #######...   1%          4    None
i - Fireball              Conj/Fire      #######...   2%          5    None
j - Lightning Bolt        Conj/Air       #######...   1%          5    None
k - Tukima's Dance        Hex            #######...   1%          3    None
l - Cure Poison           Pois           ######....   1%          2    None
m - Swiftness             Chrm/Air       #######...   1%          2    None


Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations

Branches:
Dungeon (18/27)            Temple (1/1) D:4             Orc (4/4) D:7
    Elf (0/5) Orc:3          Lair (8/8) D:8           Swamp (0/5) Lair:3
  Slime (0/6) Lair:6 Lair:8 Spider (4/5) Lair:6     
 Vault: D:14-19     

Shops:
D:9: [  D:11: [  D:12: *  D:16: [  Orc:4: (%==

Annotations
D:2 Jessica!
D:12 exclusion: oklob plant
Lair:1 Ice dragons in SE, 1 exclusion


                    Innate Abilities, Weirdness & Mutations

You tend to lose your temper in combat.
Your vision is a little blurry.
You are weak (Str -1).


Message History

You climb upwards.
There is a stone staircase leading down here.
You start resting.
You start to feel a little slower.
You start resting.
You feel sluggish.
You start resting.
You are feeling hungry.
You start resting.
Your stomach is not as upset anymore, and you need some food.
Your repel missiles spell is about to expire...
Eat which item? (? for menu, Esc to quit)
Okay, then.
You start resting.
You feel less protected from missiles.
You start resting.
Magic restored.
Save game and exit?
Welcome back, Wiznix the Demigod Wizard.
Press ? for a list of commands and other information.

       #..##########.#     #.##.#
       #..#........#.#     #.##.#
       #..#......#.#.#     #.##.#
       #..#..###.#.#.#     #.##.#
       #..#..# #.#.#.#     #.##.##
       #..#..###.#.#.#     #.##..#
####   #..#..#.....#.#     #.....#
...#   #..#..#.#...#.#     ####..#
...#####..#........#.# ########..#
.......#..#....#..##.# #......#..#
...###.#..#..........# #.####.#..#
...# #.#..###(##########.####.#..#
...###.#..............@[......#..#
.....#.#.####.########.#.######..#
####.#.#.....(#####  #.#.........#
.# #.#.#####......####.#########.##
.# #.#............................#
.###.#######.........#.#####.#.####
...#.#     #..#..#.#.#.#   #.#.#
...#.#     #..#..#.#.#.#   #.#.#
...#.#     #..#..#.#.#.#####.#.#
...#.#     #..#..#.#.#.......#.#
...#.#     #..#..#.#.#.......#.#
...#.#     #..#..#.#.##.####.#.#
...#.#     #..#..#.#.#.......#.#


There are no monsters in sight!

Vanquished Creatures
  Nikola (Spider:3)
  Donald (Orc:4)
  An orc warlord (Orc:4)
  Maud (D:16)
  Jozef (Orc:4)
  Azrael (Spider:1)
  A dragon (D:17)
  A minotaur (Lab)
  8 hydras
  Erica (D:12)
  Harold (D:10)
  Josephine (D:10)
  An ogre mage (D:18)
  Nessos (Orc:4)
  A sphinx zombie (D:17)
  21 death yaks
  A catoblepas (Lair:8)
  2 elves (shapeshifter)
  5 centaur warriors
  4 orc high priests (Orc:4)
  An iron troll (Orc:3)
  4 skeletal warriors (D:16)
  2 unseen horrors
  A giant amoeba (D:17)
  4 orc knights
  2 hill giants
  A harpy zombie (D:16)
  A spiny worm (Spider:3)
  15 wolf spiders
  An oklob plant (Lair:7)
  A minotaur zombie (Lab)
  An orc sorcerer (Orc:4)
  A griffon (Lair:8)
  5 cyclopes
  A lindwurm (Lair:6)
  12 demonic crawlers
  A griffon zombie (D:16)
  4 elephant slugs
  An elf (D:10)
  13 tarantellas
  A dragon zombie (D:18)
  4 red wasps
  7 black mambas
  42 elephants
  6 slime creatures
  3 feature mimics
  3 rock trolls
  2 spriggan skeletons (D:14)
  7 spiny frogs
  A hill giant skeleton (D:14)
  Grinder (D:5)
  A queen bee (Spider:2)
  17 trolls
  18 ugly things
  18 jumping spiders
  4 komodo dragons
  Prince Ribbit (D:7)
  6 spriggans (Lair:8)
  A rock troll zombie (D:14)
  3 two-headed ogres
  9 orb spiders
  14 trapdoor spiders
  3 basilisks
  22 redbacks
  30 blink frogs
  A giant firefly (shapeshifter) (D:17)
  5 wyverns
  8 grizzly bears
  A hill giant simulacrum (D:17)
  A dancing weapon (Spider:2)
  A chaos spawn (Orc:4)
  A deep elf conjurer (D:15)
  5 sharks
  Eustachio (D:4)
  An item mimic (D:8)
  Grum (D:10)
  9 war dogs
  A steam dragon (Lair:6)
  38 yaks
  7 hippogriffs
  3 fire elementals (Spider:1)
  3 fire drakes
  2 deep elf fighters (D:15)
  A rock worm (Spider:2)
  3 hungry ghosts
  A manticore (D:12)
  5 necrophages
  Menkaure (D:5)
  A hell hound (Spider:1)
  A rock troll simulacrum (D:17)
  A soldier ant (D:15)
  A mottled dragon (D:13)
  11 vampire mosquitoes
  4 ice beasts
  A swamp worm (Lair:3)
  6 black bears (Lair:8)
  A wyvern skeleton (D:14)
  13 ogres
  A phantom (Lair:1)
  4 sky beasts
  A troll zombie (D:12)
  A yellow wasp (D:10)
  A yak zombie (D:10)
  A swamp drake (D:7)
  29 orc warriors
  18 crocodiles
  3 troll skeletons
  A deep elf mage (D:15)
  2 yak skeletons
  27 centaurs
  8 wargs
  2 giant goldfish (D:11)
  A rotting devil (Orc:4)
  A boulder beetle zombie (D:16)
  21 wolves (Lair:8)
  2 boring beetles
  4 giant slugs
  3 big kobolds
  A brain worm (D:13)
  A basilisk zombie (D:12)
  21 giant frogs
  A yellow wasp zombie (D:14)
  9 agate snails
  A centaur skeleton (D:10)
  A giant leech (Lair:3)
  18 water moccasins
  2 eyes of draining
  6 basilisk skeletons
  A two-headed ogre skeleton (D:10)
  11 jellyfish
  21 killer bees
  3 killer bee zombies
  A crocodile zombie (D:11)
  11 crimson imps
  9 goliath beetles
  16 wights
  An ogre skeleton (D:14)
  16 electric eels
  A siren (Port)
  12 big fish
  53 spiders
  A draconian (shapeshifter) (D:15)
  2 hound zombies
  2 shadows
  2 big kobold skeletons
  8 iguanas
  59 orc priests
  8 worker ants
  11 hounds
  4 scorpions
  6 deep elf soldiers (D:15)
  32 orc wizards
  8 jellies
  3 worker ant zombies
  9 porcupines
  2 hound skeletons (D:10)
  2 mermaids (Port)
  36 sheep
  Jessica (D:2)
  7 boggarts (D:15)
  A mummy (D:11)
  2 goliath beetle zombies
  25 adders
  3 giant centipedes
  13 gnolls
  107 green rats
  3 giant centipede zombies
  An iguana zombie (D:5)
  An adder zombie (D:6)
  A scorpion zombie (D:16)
  4 giant mites
  A shadow imp (D:14)
  4 worms
  7 grey rats (Port)
  4 giant eyeballs
  10 giant geckos
  4 oozes
  267 orcs
  7 ball pythons
  33 bats
  13 giant cockroaches
  29 hobgoblins
  16 quokkas
  11 giant newts
  A giant spore (D:11)
  32 goblins
  A hobgoblin skeleton (D:13)
  36 jackals
  38 kobolds
  A kobold skeleton (D:4)
  A kobold zombie (D:11)
  An orc skeleton (D:2)
  11 orc zombies
  48 rats
  21 ballistomycetes
  A bush (Lair:5)
  10 fungi
  7 plants
  42 toadstools
1860 creatures vanquished.

Vanquished Creatures (collateral kills)
  A centaur warrior (D:14)
  A cyclops (D:15)
  A tarantella (Spider:2)
  A jumping spider (Lair:6)
  A redback (Spider:2)
  A hippogriff (D:15)
  A rock worm (Lair:6)
  A troll skeleton (D:14)
  15 killer bees
  3 orc priests (Orc:4)
  A gnoll shaman (D:13)
  4 spiders (Spider:1)
  A deep elf soldier (D:15)
  2 orc wizards (Orc:3)
  A gnoll (D:13)
  2 green rats (Lair:4)
  A worm (Spider:2)
  8 orcs
46 creatures vanquished.

Vanquished Creatures (others)
  A skeletal warrior (D:16)
  A wolf spider (Spider:1)
  20 dancing weapons
  A redback (Spider:3)
  2 blink frogs (Lair:6)
  A yak (D:14)
  2 small abominations
  A hell hound (Spider:1)
  2 centaurs
  A giant frog (Lair:6)
  A killer bee (Spider:2)
  A big kobold skeleton (D:12)
  A spider (Spider:3)
  4 crimson imps
  An orc wizard (D:8)
  A deep elf soldier (D:15)
  A porcupine (Lair:6)
  A giant centipede (Lair:2)
  A green rat (Lair:5)
  A white imp (Lair:1)
  A shadow imp (Lair:4)
  10 orcs
  A ball python (D:1)
  A giant newt (D:1)
  5 giant spores (D:10)
  A hobgoblin skeleton (D:5)
  3 jackals
  2 kobolds
  2 rats
  A ballistomycete (D:10)
  30 fungi
  10 plants
  224 toadstools
336 creatures vanquished.

Grand Total: 2242 creatures vanquished

Notes
Turn   | Place    | Note
--------------------------------------------------------------
     0 | D:1      | Wiznix, the Demigod Wizard, began the quest for the Orb.
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 1. HP: 12/12 MP: 7/7
   192 | D:1      | Reached skill level 1 in Conjurations
   475 | D:1      | Reached XP level 2. HP: 15/18 MP: 3/9
   573 | D:1      | Reached skill level 3 in Spellcasting
  1738 | D:2      | Reached XP level 3. HP: 22/24 MP: 5/12
  1845 | D:2      | Noticed Jessica
  2304 | D:2      | You fall through a shaft!
  2322 | D:4      | Learned a level 2 spell: Blink
  2326 | D:4      | Learned a level 2 spell: Slow
  2715 | D:3      | Reached skill level 1 in Hexes
  2715 | D:3      | Reached XP level 4. HP: 28/30 MP: 8/15
  2879 | D:3      | Learned a level 2 spell: Repel Missiles
  3432 | D:3      | Found a white marble altar of Elyvilon.
  3493 | D:2      | Learned a level 3 spell: Mephitic Cloud
  3867 | D:4      | Noticed Eustachio
  3881 | D:4      | Killed Eustachio
  3881 | D:4      | Reached skill level 4 in Spellcasting
  3881 | D:4      | Reached XP level 5. HP: 36/36 MP: 2/18
  4024 | D:4      | Found a blossoming altar of Fedhas.
  4035 | D:4      | Reached XP level 6. HP: 40/42 MP: 13/19
  4402 | D:4      | Found a staircase to the Ecumenical Temple.
  4408 | Temple   | Entered the Ecumenical Temple
  4901 | D:2      | Killed Jessica
  5066 | D:5      | Entered Level 5 of the Dungeon
  5203 | D:5      | Found a glowing silver altar of Zin.
  5229 | D:5      | Noticed Menkaure
  5233 | D:5      | Killed Menkaure
  5294 | D:5      | Reached XP level 7. HP: 48/48 MP: 5/21
  6178 | D:5      | Found a deep blue altar of Sif Muna.
  6202 | D:5      | Noticed Grinder
  6270 | D:6      | Reached skill level 5 in Spellcasting
  6270 | D:6      | Reached skill level 1 in Air Magic
  6440 | D:6      | Found a shimmering altar of Xom.
  6494 | D:6      | Reached XP level 8. HP: 45/55 MP: 2/23
  6804 | D:6      | Reached skill level 1 in Poison Magic
  7148 | D:6      | Reached XP level 7. HP: 36/48 MP: 14/22
  7170 | D:6      | Reached XP level 8. HP: 45/55 MP: 14/23
  7291 | D:6      | Found a glowing drain.
  7346 | sewer    | Entered the sewers
  8297 | D:6      | Reached skill level 1 in Fighting
  8850 | D:7      | Found a snail-covered altar of Cheibriados.
  8852 | D:7      | Got a transparent helmet
  8859 | D:7      | Identified the +0 helmet of Leaves (You found it on level 7 of the Dungeon)
  9071 | Temple   | Learned a level 3 spell: Conjure Flame
  9076 | Temple   | Learned a level 2 spell: Call Imp
  9147 | D:5      | Killed Grinder
  9147 | D:5      | Reached skill level 1 in Armour
  9147 | D:5      | Reached skill level 1 in Translocations
  9395 | D:7      | Reached skill level 5 in Conjurations
  9543 | D:7      | Reached skill level 1 in Traps & Doors
  9604 | D:7      | Reached skill level 6 in Spellcasting
  9767 | D:7      | Found a staircase to the Orcish Mines.
  9786 | D:7      | Reached XP level 9. HP: 54/62 MP: 3/25
 10326 | D:7      | Reached skill level 1 in Stabbing
 10549 | D:7      | Paralysed by a giant eyeball for 2 turns
 10613 | D:7      | Noticed Prince Ribbit
 10630 | D:7      | Killed Prince Ribbit
 10630 | D:7      | Reached skill level 1 in Polearms
 11559 | D:8      | Reached skill level 1 in Fire Magic
 11827 | D:8      | Reached skill level 5 in Hexes
 11903 | D:8      | Found a staircase to the Lair.
 13084 | D:7      | Paralysed by a giant eyeball for 2 turns
 13137 | D:9      | Found a radiant altar of Vehumet.
 13339 | D:9      | Reached XP level 10. HP: 58/71 MP: 12/27
 13794 | D:9      | Found a blossoming altar of Fedhas.
 13993 | D:9      | Found a snail-covered altar of Cheibriados.
 14673 | D:9      | Found an iron altar of Okawaru.
 14727 | D:9      | Reached skill level 7 in Spellcasting
 15003 | D:9      | Found Chatwen's Armour Shop.
 15013 | D:9      | Bought a +0 elven buckler of protection for 174 gold pieces
 15409 | D:10     | Entered Level 10 of the Dungeon
 16286 | D:10     | Got a faintly glowing cloak
 16369 | D:10     | Identified the +1 cloak "Hero's Friend" (You found it on level 10 of the Dungeon)
 16378 | D:10     | Noticed Grum
 16385 | D:10     | Killed Grum
 16458 | D:10     | Noticed Sonja
 16462 | D:10     | Noticed Sonja
 16462 | D:10     | Sonja changed into Sonja the elf
 16473 | D:10     | Killed Sonja the elf
 16555 | D:10     | Noticed a centaur skeleton
 16563 | D:10     | Killed a centaur skeleton
 16597 | D:10     | Noticed a two-headed ogre skeleton
 16606 | D:10     | Killed a two-headed ogre skeleton
 16645 | D:10     | Noticed Josephine
 16656 | D:10     | Noticed a yak skeleton
 16660 | D:10     | Killed Josephine
 16725 | D:10     | Killed a yak skeleton
 16725 | D:10     | Reached XP level 11. HP: 79/79 MP: 9/29
 17088 | D:10     | Noticed Harold
 17116 | D:10     | Killed Harold
 17116 | D:10     | Reached skill level 5 in Fighting
 17116 | D:10     | Reached skill level 5 in Armour
 17116 | D:10     | Reached skill level 8 in Spellcasting
 17628 | D:10     | Found a bloodstained altar of Trog.
 18455 | D:10     | Reached skill level 1 in Throwing
 18888 | Lair:1   | Entered Level 1 of the Lair of Beasts
 19460 | Lair:1   | You fall through a shaft!
 19559 | Lair:1   | Learned a level 4 spell: Cause Fear
 22248 | Lair:3   | Reached skill level 5 in Dodging
 23331 | Lair:2   | Reached skill level 1 in Shields
 24124 | Lair:3   | Found a staircase to the Swamp.
 25439 | Lair:4   | Reached skill level 9 in Spellcasting
 25439 | Lair:4   | Reached XP level 12. HP: 89/89 MP: 12/31
 25866 | Lair:4   | Reached skill level 1 in Summonings
 32296 | D:9      | Bought the +0 robe of Action {Str+5 Int+2 Dam+4} for 552 gold pieces
 32666 | Lair:2   | Learned a level 5 spell: Fireball
 32672 | Lair:2   | Learned a level 5 spell: Lightning Bolt
 32994 | Lair:5   | Reached skill level 10 in Conjurations
 33385 | Lair:6   | Found a hole to the Spider Nest.
 34213 | Lair:6   | Reached skill level 10 in Spellcasting
 34218 | Lair:6   | Reached skill level 1 in Evocations
 35476 | Lair:5   | Reached XP level 13. HP: 63/99 MP: 4/33
 36289 | Lair:6   | Found a staircase to the Slime Pits.
 37769 | Lair:7   | Reached skill level 11 in Conjurations
 40210 | Lair:8   | Entered Level 8 of the Lair of Beasts
 40214 | Lair:8   | Reached skill level 1 in Charms
 40382 | Lair:8   | Found a staircase to the Slime Pits.
 40382 | Lair:8   | Found a viscous altar of Jiyva.
 40828 | Lair:8   | Reached skill level 5 in Translocations
 42015 | Lair:8   | Reached XP level 14. HP: 107/107 MP: 19/34
 44582 | Lair:7   | Reached skill level 5 in Shields
 45105 | Lair:2   | Learned a level 3 spell: Tukima's Dance
 45234 | Orc:1    | Entered Level 1 of the Orcish Mines
 46828 | Orc:4    | Entered Level 4 of the Orcish Mines
 47139 | Orc:4    | Noticed Nessos
 47809 | D:11     | Learned a level 2 spell: Cure Poison
 48714 | D:11     | Found Imya's Antique Armour Boutique.
 48726 | D:11     | Bought a bloodstained helmet for 195 gold pieces
 48730 | D:11     | Identified the +1 helmet "Xeg Anub" (You bought it in a shop on level 11 of the Dungeon)
 49873 | D:12     | Noticed Erica
 49881 | D:12     | Killed Erica
 50233 | D:12     | Found Puaphuut's General Store.
 50242 | D:12     | Bought a potion of berserk rage for 45 gold pieces
 50242 | D:12     | Bought a scroll of enchant armour for 82 gold pieces
 50826 | D:12     | Got a fine battleaxe
 51571 | D:13     | Found a labyrinth entrance.
 51579 | Lab      | Entered a Labyrinth
 52201 | Lab      | Got a sapphire blowgun
 52202 | Lab      | Identified the cursed blowgun "Hydraslayer" {speed, rElec} (You found it in a Labyrinth)
 53285 | Orc:3    | Found a staircase to the Elven Halls.
 53402 | Orc:4    | Noticed Jozef
 53624 | Orc:4    | Killed Jozef
 54405 | Orc:4    | Killed Nessos
 54721 | Orc:4    | Noticed an orc high priest
 54758 | Orc:4    | Killed an orc high priest
 54758 | Orc:4    | Reached skill level 10 in Fighting
 54759 | Orc:4    | Noticed an orc high priest
 54937 | Orc:4    | Killed an orc high priest
 55881 | Orc:4    | Noticed an orc high priest
 55886 | Orc:4    | Killed an orc high priest
 55886 | Orc:4    | Reached XP level 15. HP: 112/112 MP: 18/36
 56028 | Orc:4    | Found a roughly hewn altar of Beogh.
 56045 | Orc:4    | Noticed Donald
 56055 | Orc:4    | Killed Donald
 56092 | Orc:4    | Noticed an orc warlord
 56151 | Orc:4    | Noticed an iron troll
 56320 | Orc:4    | Killed an orc warlord
 56320 | Orc:4    | Reached skill level 5 in Charms
 56325 | Orc:4    | Noticed an orc high priest
 56355 | Orc:4    | Killed an orc high priest
 57276 | Spider:1 | Entered Level 1 of the Spider Nest
 58820 | Spider:1 | Reached skill level 10 in Hexes
 59884 | Spider:1 | Noticed Azrael
 59889 | Spider:1 | Killed Azrael
 59941 | Lair:6   | Noticed a rock worm
 60022 | Lair:6   | Killed a rock worm
 60175 | Lair:6   | Reached skill level 5 in Air Magic
 60542 | Lair:2   | Learned a level 2 spell: Swiftness
 61904 | Spider:2 | Got a glistering book
 61910 | Spider:1 | Identified the Incunabulum of Air and Enhancements (You found it on level 2 of the Spider Nest)
 62253 | Spider:1 | Reached skill level 12 in Conjurations
 63190 | Spider:2 | Reached skill level 5 in Polearms
 63199 | Spider:2 | HP: 4/113 [wolf spider (3)]
 67415 | Spider:3 | Reached XP level 16. HP: 112/122 MP: 27/36
 67631 | Spider:3 | Noticed Nikola
 68169 | Spider:3 | HP: 2/122 [Nikola/chain lightning (8)]
 68191 | Spider:2 | Gained mutation: Your vision is a little blurry. [mutagenic glow]
 68834 | Spider:3 | Killed Nikola
 69427 | Spider:2 | Identified a +1 cloak of preservation (You took it off Nikola on level 3 of the Spider Nest)
 70164 | Spider:3 | Found a roughly hewn altar of Beogh.
 72377 | Orc:3    | Killed an iron troll
 72725 | Orc:4    | Found Ijocel's Jewellery Boutique.
 72725 | Orc:4    | Found Qahaumam's Jewellery Emporium.
 72828 | Orc:4    | Found Sul Pnua's Antique Weapon Boutique.
 72828 | Orc:4    | Found Ineotzye's Food Emporium.
 73100 | Orc:4    | Bought the ring "Kyluevua" {rPois rF++} for 667 gold pieces
 73308 | Lair:2   | Learned a level 6 spell: Invisibility
 75143 | D:14     | Entered Level 14 of the Dungeon
 75475 | D:14     | Gained mutation: You tend to lose your temper in combat. [mutagenic glow]
 75575 | D:14     | Gained mutation: You are weak (Str -1). [mutagenic glow]
 76985 | D:15     | Entered Level 15 of the Dungeon
 77562 | D:15     | Noticed a deep elf conjurer
 77566 | D:15     | Killed a deep elf conjurer
 77567 | D:15     | Noticed a deep elf mage
 77568 | D:15     | Killed a deep elf mage
 79508 | D:16     | Found Uraeg's Armour Boutique.
 79517 | D:16     | Bought a +2 pair of gauntlets of strength for 281 gold pieces
 80483 | D:16     | Noticed Maud
 81148 | D:16     | Killed Maud
 82005 | D:17     | Reached XP level 17. HP: 131/131 MP: 15/37
User avatar

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1729

Joined: Wednesday, 19th October 2011, 21:25

Location: New England.

Post Sunday, 25th March 2012, 19:00

Re: Spider branch

mumra wrote:First playthrough of Spiders Nest, Windows Tiles 0.11-a0-728

I decided to just play through with a character and see what happened. Decided to have a go at a Demigod Wizard. Managed to get one off the ground and made it to Lair - what showed up but Spiders Nest. Interesting bug: two entrances to Slime ...

I managed to clear Lair but Orc got a bit tricky around level 3/4 due to a slightly awkward level layout and an Iron Troll. Mostly I was walking over everything at this point. I'd been lucky to find a cTele ring early on which combined with Blink from my wizard book was giving me a pretty strong edge, in open terrain. I also had a nice rPois hat. So at around that point I ventured into Spider, around XL:15.

This is a slightly unusual character for me, I'm hybridising into polearms with strong hexes for battle support. Quite often I'm up close and meleeing (although I have lightning bolt and fireball which can handle small groups).

I'll be honest, I don't think I've ever had so many close calls so close together. It's like every time I venture a bit further, another load of monsters swarm me; sometimes I manage to take them down, sometimes I'm getting overwhelmed and beating a hasty retreat. Sometimes I retreat only to find another herd of something spawned on the previously-cleared level and I find myself retreating 2 or 3 levels at once. Actually this was happening a lot in Lair as well; massive packs of elephants and green rats suddenly appearing in areas I think are safe. Even with semi-controlled blinks available most of the time I'm still getting into near-death situations regularly ... or maybe that's just bad play, but I'm having fun ;)

What's really interesting is that each battle is very distinct based on the specific combination of monsters that turn up at any given time. The maps are great as well, the delve layout seems to be doing a really good job - and the lack of any corridors whatsoever means you can constantly get swarmed. The combination of webs, orbs, jumping spiders, water meant that even with my blinking I could still get into trouble. I definitely think a few more elements wouldn't go amiss, it's getting a bit samey after 3 levels (and this is only first playthrough). Although the branch still manages to have surprises.

So what people are saying about it being easy I don't really see. I've left Spider for a bit to do more D so I haven't even cleared the branch end yet.

Character dump:
  Code:
 Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.11-a0-728-g7daf38e character file.

Wiznix the Conjurer (Demigod Wizard)               Turns: 84781, Time: 07:23:03

HP 131/131 (135) AC 15     Str 20      XL: 17   Next: 24%
MP  37/37        EV 21     Int 30      God:
Gold 745         SH 16     Dex 20      Spells: 12 memorised,  2 levels left

Res.Fire  : . . .   See Invis. : +    a - +4,+2 trident
Res.Cold  : . . .   Warding    : . .  l - +0 robe of Action {Str+5 Int+2 Dam+4}
Life Prot.: . . .   Conserve   : +    I - +2 elf buckler {AC+3}
Res.Acid. : + . .   Res.Corr.  : +    z - +1 helmet "Xeg Anub" {+Blink rPois MR Str+
Res.Poison: +       Clarity    : .    k - +1 cloak {rCorr, Cons}
Res.Elec. : .       Spirit.Shd : .    d - +2 pair of gauntlets {Str+3}
Sust.Abil.: . .     Stasis     : .    o - +1 pair of orc boots
Res.Mut.  : +       Ctrl.Telep.: +    r - amulet of resist mutation
Res.Rott. : .       Levitation : .    F - ring of teleport control
Saprovore : . . .   Ctrl.Flight: .    N - ring of see invisible

@: very resistant to hostile enchantments, quite stealthy
A: berserk 1, blurry vision 1, Str -1
a: Evoke Blink


You are on level 17 of the Dungeon.
You are hungry.

You have visited 5 branches of the dungeon, and seen 35 of its levels.
You have visited 1 Labyrinth.
You have visited 1 portal chamber: sewer.

You have collected 2721 gold pieces.
You have spent 1996 gold pieces at shops.

Inventory:

Hand weapons
 a - a +4,+2 trident (weapon)
 b - the +6 blowgun "Hydraslayer" {speed, rElec}
   (You found it in a Labyrinth)   
   
   Attacks with this weapon take half as long, but cause slightly less damage.
   
   It insulates you from electricity.
 e - an uncursed orcish morningstar of venom
 x - an uncursed sabre of electrocution
 y - a scimitar of flaming
 W - an uncursed demon blade
 X - an uncursed quarterstaff of crushing
Missiles
 g - 74 poisoned +0 needles
 m - 3 curare-tipped +2 needles
 u - 18 runed darts (quivered)
 Y - 7 javelins
Armour
 d - a +2 pair of gauntlets of strength (worn)
 k - a +1 cloak of preservation (worn)
 l - the +0 robe of Action (worn) {Str+5 Int+2 Dam+4}
   (You bought it in a shop on level 9 of the Dungeon)   
   
   It affects your strength (+5).
   It affects your intelligence (+2).
   It affects your damage-dealing abilities (+4).
 o - a +1 pair of orcish boots (worn)
 z - the +1 helmet "Xeg Anub" (worn) {+Blink rPois MR Str+2}
   (You bought it in a shop on level 11 of the Dungeon)   
   
   It affects your strength (+2).
   It protects you from poison.
   It increases your resistance to enchantments.
   It lets you blink.
 I - a +2 elven buckler of protection (worn)
Magical devices
 c - a wand of lightning (7)
 f - a wand of teleportation (5)
 O - a wand of disintegration {zapped: 1}
 Q - a wand of cold {zapped: 3}
Comestibles
 j - 2 meat rations
 n - 8 honeycombs
 L - 11 grapes
 T - 3 chokos
 U - 8 bread rations
Scrolls
 i - 2 scrolls of blinking
 v - a scroll of fog
 D - a scroll of magic mapping
 H - 2 scrolls of remove curse
 M - a scroll of recharging
 P - a scroll of fear
 R - 3 scrolls of teleportation
 V - 5 scrolls of identify
Jewellery
 h - an uncursed ring of sustenance
 r - an amulet of resist mutation (around neck)
 s - an uncursed ring of levitation
 t - the ring "Kyluevua" {rPois rF++}
   (You bought it in a shop on level 4 of the Orcish Mines)   
   
   [ring of poison resistance]
   
   It greatly protects you from fire.
 F - a ring of teleport control (right hand)
 N - a ring of see invisible (left hand)
 S - an uncursed ring of magical power
Potions
 p - 4 potions of curing
 q - 3 potions of heal wounds
 w - a potion of resistance
 A - 3 potions of magic
 B - 2 potions of restore abilities
 C - 2 potions of brilliance
 E - a potion of speed
 G - a potion of levitation
 J - a potion of might
Magical staves
 K - a staff of power


   Skills:
 * Level 11.4 Fighting
 + Level 5.5 Polearms
 + Level 4.7 Throwing
 - Level 5.3 Armour
 + Level 9.8 Dodging
 + Level 4.2 Stealth
 + Level 3.6 Stabbing
 * Level 8.5 Shields
 + Level 1.8 Traps & Doors
 + Level 12.1 Spellcasting
 + Level 12.3 Conjurations
 * Level 11.1 Hexes
 * Level 7.6 Charms
 + Level 1.1 Summonings
 * Level 8.7 Translocations
 + Level 3.9 Fire Magic
 + Level 5.8 Air Magic
 + Level 3.3 Poison Magic
 + Level 1.1 Evocations


You have 2 spell levels left.
You know the following spells:

 Your Spells              Type           Power        Failure   Level  Hunger
a - Invisibility          Hex            #######..    6%          6    Honeycomb
b - Blink                 Tloc           N/A          1%          2    None
c - Slow                  Hex            #######..    1%          2    None
d - Repel Missiles        Chrm/Air       #######...   1%          2    None
e - Mephitic Cloud        Conj/Pois/Air  #######..    1%          3    None
g - Call Imp              Summ           #####.....   2%          2    None
h - Cause Fear            Hex            #######...   1%          4    None
i - Fireball              Conj/Fire      #######...   2%          5    None
j - Lightning Bolt        Conj/Air       #######...   1%          5    None
k - Tukima's Dance        Hex            #######...   1%          3    None
l - Cure Poison           Pois           ######....   1%          2    None
m - Swiftness             Chrm/Air       #######...   1%          2    None


Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations

Branches:
Dungeon (18/27)            Temple (1/1) D:4             Orc (4/4) D:7
    Elf (0/5) Orc:3          Lair (8/8) D:8           Swamp (0/5) Lair:3
  Slime (0/6) Lair:6 Lair:8 Spider (4/5) Lair:6     
 Vault: D:14-19     

Shops:
D:9: [  D:11: [  D:12: *  D:16: [  Orc:4: (%==

Annotations
D:2 Jessica!
D:12 exclusion: oklob plant
Lair:1 Ice dragons in SE, 1 exclusion


                    Innate Abilities, Weirdness & Mutations

You tend to lose your temper in combat.
Your vision is a little blurry.
You are weak (Str -1).


Message History

You climb upwards.
There is a stone staircase leading down here.
You start resting.
You start to feel a little slower.
You start resting.
You feel sluggish.
You start resting.
You are feeling hungry.
You start resting.
Your stomach is not as upset anymore, and you need some food.
Your repel missiles spell is about to expire...
Eat which item? (? for menu, Esc to quit)
Okay, then.
You start resting.
You feel less protected from missiles.
You start resting.
Magic restored.
Save game and exit?
Welcome back, Wiznix the Demigod Wizard.
Press ? for a list of commands and other information.

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There are no monsters in sight!

Vanquished Creatures
  Nikola (Spider:3)
  Donald (Orc:4)
  An orc warlord (Orc:4)
  Maud (D:16)
  Jozef (Orc:4)
  Azrael (Spider:1)
  A dragon (D:17)
  A minotaur (Lab)
  8 hydras
  Erica (D:12)
  Harold (D:10)
  Josephine (D:10)
  An ogre mage (D:18)
  Nessos (Orc:4)
  A sphinx zombie (D:17)
  21 death yaks
  A catoblepas (Lair:8)
  2 elves (shapeshifter)
  5 centaur warriors
  4 orc high priests (Orc:4)
  An iron troll (Orc:3)
  4 skeletal warriors (D:16)
  2 unseen horrors
  A giant amoeba (D:17)
  4 orc knights
  2 hill giants
  A harpy zombie (D:16)
  A spiny worm (Spider:3)
  15 wolf spiders
  An oklob plant (Lair:7)
  A minotaur zombie (Lab)
  An orc sorcerer (Orc:4)
  A griffon (Lair:8)
  5 cyclopes
  A lindwurm (Lair:6)
  12 demonic crawlers
  A griffon zombie (D:16)
  4 elephant slugs
  An elf (D:10)
  13 tarantellas
  A dragon zombie (D:18)
  4 red wasps
  7 black mambas
  42 elephants
  6 slime creatures
  3 feature mimics
  3 rock trolls
  2 spriggan skeletons (D:14)
  7 spiny frogs
  A hill giant skeleton (D:14)
  Grinder (D:5)
  A queen bee (Spider:2)
  17 trolls
  18 ugly things
  18 jumping spiders
  4 komodo dragons
  Prince Ribbit (D:7)
  6 spriggans (Lair:8)
  A rock troll zombie (D:14)
  3 two-headed ogres
  9 orb spiders
  14 trapdoor spiders
  3 basilisks
  22 redbacks
  30 blink frogs
  A giant firefly (shapeshifter) (D:17)
  5 wyverns
  8 grizzly bears
  A hill giant simulacrum (D:17)
  A dancing weapon (Spider:2)
  A chaos spawn (Orc:4)
  A deep elf conjurer (D:15)
  5 sharks
  Eustachio (D:4)
  An item mimic (D:8)
  Grum (D:10)
  9 war dogs
  A steam dragon (Lair:6)
  38 yaks
  7 hippogriffs
  3 fire elementals (Spider:1)
  3 fire drakes
  2 deep elf fighters (D:15)
  A rock worm (Spider:2)
  3 hungry ghosts
  A manticore (D:12)
  5 necrophages
  Menkaure (D:5)
  A hell hound (Spider:1)
  A rock troll simulacrum (D:17)
  A soldier ant (D:15)
  A mottled dragon (D:13)
  11 vampire mosquitoes
  4 ice beasts
  A swamp worm (Lair:3)
  6 black bears (Lair:8)
  A wyvern skeleton (D:14)
  13 ogres
  A phantom (Lair:1)
  4 sky beasts
  A troll zombie (D:12)
  A yellow wasp (D:10)
  A yak zombie (D:10)
  A swamp drake (D:7)
  29 orc warriors
  18 crocodiles
  3 troll skeletons
  A deep elf mage (D:15)
  2 yak skeletons
  27 centaurs
  8 wargs
  2 giant goldfish (D:11)
  A rotting devil (Orc:4)
  A boulder beetle zombie (D:16)
  21 wolves (Lair:8)
  2 boring beetles
  4 giant slugs
  3 big kobolds
  A brain worm (D:13)
  A basilisk zombie (D:12)
  21 giant frogs
  A yellow wasp zombie (D:14)
  9 agate snails
  A centaur skeleton (D:10)
  A giant leech (Lair:3)
  18 water moccasins
  2 eyes of draining
  6 basilisk skeletons
  A two-headed ogre skeleton (D:10)
  11 jellyfish
  21 killer bees
  3 killer bee zombies
  A crocodile zombie (D:11)
  11 crimson imps
  9 goliath beetles
  16 wights
  An ogre skeleton (D:14)
  16 electric eels
  A siren (Port)
  12 big fish
  53 spiders
  A draconian (shapeshifter) (D:15)
  2 hound zombies
  2 shadows
  2 big kobold skeletons
  8 iguanas
  59 orc priests
  8 worker ants
  11 hounds
  4 scorpions
  6 deep elf soldiers (D:15)
  32 orc wizards
  8 jellies
  3 worker ant zombies
  9 porcupines
  2 hound skeletons (D:10)
  2 mermaids (Port)
  36 sheep
  Jessica (D:2)
  7 boggarts (D:15)
  A mummy (D:11)
  2 goliath beetle zombies
  25 adders
  3 giant centipedes
  13 gnolls
  107 green rats
  3 giant centipede zombies
  An iguana zombie (D:5)
  An adder zombie (D:6)
  A scorpion zombie (D:16)
  4 giant mites
  A shadow imp (D:14)
  4 worms
  7 grey rats (Port)
  4 giant eyeballs
  10 giant geckos
  4 oozes
  267 orcs
  7 ball pythons
  33 bats
  13 giant cockroaches
  29 hobgoblins
  16 quokkas
  11 giant newts
  A giant spore (D:11)
  32 goblins
  A hobgoblin skeleton (D:13)
  36 jackals
  38 kobolds
  A kobold skeleton (D:4)
  A kobold zombie (D:11)
  An orc skeleton (D:2)
  11 orc zombies
  48 rats
  21 ballistomycetes
  A bush (Lair:5)
  10 fungi
  7 plants
  42 toadstools
1860 creatures vanquished.

Vanquished Creatures (collateral kills)
  A centaur warrior (D:14)
  A cyclops (D:15)
  A tarantella (Spider:2)
  A jumping spider (Lair:6)
  A redback (Spider:2)
  A hippogriff (D:15)
  A rock worm (Lair:6)
  A troll skeleton (D:14)
  15 killer bees
  3 orc priests (Orc:4)
  A gnoll shaman (D:13)
  4 spiders (Spider:1)
  A deep elf soldier (D:15)
  2 orc wizards (Orc:3)
  A gnoll (D:13)
  2 green rats (Lair:4)
  A worm (Spider:2)
  8 orcs
46 creatures vanquished.

Vanquished Creatures (others)
  A skeletal warrior (D:16)
  A wolf spider (Spider:1)
  20 dancing weapons
  A redback (Spider:3)
  2 blink frogs (Lair:6)
  A yak (D:14)
  2 small abominations
  A hell hound (Spider:1)
  2 centaurs
  A giant frog (Lair:6)
  A killer bee (Spider:2)
  A big kobold skeleton (D:12)
  A spider (Spider:3)
  4 crimson imps
  An orc wizard (D:8)
  A deep elf soldier (D:15)
  A porcupine (Lair:6)
  A giant centipede (Lair:2)
  A green rat (Lair:5)
  A white imp (Lair:1)
  A shadow imp (Lair:4)
  10 orcs
  A ball python (D:1)
  A giant newt (D:1)
  5 giant spores (D:10)
  A hobgoblin skeleton (D:5)
  3 jackals
  2 kobolds
  2 rats
  A ballistomycete (D:10)
  30 fungi
  10 plants
  224 toadstools
336 creatures vanquished.

Grand Total: 2242 creatures vanquished

Notes
Turn   | Place    | Note
--------------------------------------------------------------
     0 | D:1      | Wiznix, the Demigod Wizard, began the quest for the Orb.
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 1. HP: 12/12 MP: 7/7
   192 | D:1      | Reached skill level 1 in Conjurations
   475 | D:1      | Reached XP level 2. HP: 15/18 MP: 3/9
   573 | D:1      | Reached skill level 3 in Spellcasting
  1738 | D:2      | Reached XP level 3. HP: 22/24 MP: 5/12
  1845 | D:2      | Noticed Jessica
  2304 | D:2      | You fall through a shaft!
  2322 | D:4      | Learned a level 2 spell: Blink
  2326 | D:4      | Learned a level 2 spell: Slow
  2715 | D:3      | Reached skill level 1 in Hexes
  2715 | D:3      | Reached XP level 4. HP: 28/30 MP: 8/15
  2879 | D:3      | Learned a level 2 spell: Repel Missiles
  3432 | D:3      | Found a white marble altar of Elyvilon.
  3493 | D:2      | Learned a level 3 spell: Mephitic Cloud
  3867 | D:4      | Noticed Eustachio
  3881 | D:4      | Killed Eustachio
  3881 | D:4      | Reached skill level 4 in Spellcasting
  3881 | D:4      | Reached XP level 5. HP: 36/36 MP: 2/18
  4024 | D:4      | Found a blossoming altar of Fedhas.
  4035 | D:4      | Reached XP level 6. HP: 40/42 MP: 13/19
  4402 | D:4      | Found a staircase to the Ecumenical Temple.
  4408 | Temple   | Entered the Ecumenical Temple
  4901 | D:2      | Killed Jessica
  5066 | D:5      | Entered Level 5 of the Dungeon
  5203 | D:5      | Found a glowing silver altar of Zin.
  5229 | D:5      | Noticed Menkaure
  5233 | D:5      | Killed Menkaure
  5294 | D:5      | Reached XP level 7. HP: 48/48 MP: 5/21
  6178 | D:5      | Found a deep blue altar of Sif Muna.
  6202 | D:5      | Noticed Grinder
  6270 | D:6      | Reached skill level 5 in Spellcasting
  6270 | D:6      | Reached skill level 1 in Air Magic
  6440 | D:6      | Found a shimmering altar of Xom.
  6494 | D:6      | Reached XP level 8. HP: 45/55 MP: 2/23
  6804 | D:6      | Reached skill level 1 in Poison Magic
  7148 | D:6      | Reached XP level 7. HP: 36/48 MP: 14/22
  7170 | D:6      | Reached XP level 8. HP: 45/55 MP: 14/23
  7291 | D:6      | Found a glowing drain.
  7346 | sewer    | Entered the sewers
  8297 | D:6      | Reached skill level 1 in Fighting
  8850 | D:7      | Found a snail-covered altar of Cheibriados.
  8852 | D:7      | Got a transparent helmet
  8859 | D:7      | Identified the +0 helmet of Leaves (You found it on level 7 of the Dungeon)
  9071 | Temple   | Learned a level 3 spell: Conjure Flame
  9076 | Temple   | Learned a level 2 spell: Call Imp
  9147 | D:5      | Killed Grinder
  9147 | D:5      | Reached skill level 1 in Armour
  9147 | D:5      | Reached skill level 1 in Translocations
  9395 | D:7      | Reached skill level 5 in Conjurations
  9543 | D:7      | Reached skill level 1 in Traps & Doors
  9604 | D:7      | Reached skill level 6 in Spellcasting
  9767 | D:7      | Found a staircase to the Orcish Mines.
  9786 | D:7      | Reached XP level 9. HP: 54/62 MP: 3/25
 10326 | D:7      | Reached skill level 1 in Stabbing
 10549 | D:7      | Paralysed by a giant eyeball for 2 turns
 10613 | D:7      | Noticed Prince Ribbit
 10630 | D:7      | Killed Prince Ribbit
 10630 | D:7      | Reached skill level 1 in Polearms
 11559 | D:8      | Reached skill level 1 in Fire Magic
 11827 | D:8      | Reached skill level 5 in Hexes
 11903 | D:8      | Found a staircase to the Lair.
 13084 | D:7      | Paralysed by a giant eyeball for 2 turns
 13137 | D:9      | Found a radiant altar of Vehumet.
 13339 | D:9      | Reached XP level 10. HP: 58/71 MP: 12/27
 13794 | D:9      | Found a blossoming altar of Fedhas.
 13993 | D:9      | Found a snail-covered altar of Cheibriados.
 14673 | D:9      | Found an iron altar of Okawaru.
 14727 | D:9      | Reached skill level 7 in Spellcasting
 15003 | D:9      | Found Chatwen's Armour Shop.
 15013 | D:9      | Bought a +0 elven buckler of protection for 174 gold pieces
 15409 | D:10     | Entered Level 10 of the Dungeon
 16286 | D:10     | Got a faintly glowing cloak
 16369 | D:10     | Identified the +1 cloak "Hero's Friend" (You found it on level 10 of the Dungeon)
 16378 | D:10     | Noticed Grum
 16385 | D:10     | Killed Grum
 16458 | D:10     | Noticed Sonja
 16462 | D:10     | Noticed Sonja
 16462 | D:10     | Sonja changed into Sonja the elf
 16473 | D:10     | Killed Sonja the elf
 16555 | D:10     | Noticed a centaur skeleton
 16563 | D:10     | Killed a centaur skeleton
 16597 | D:10     | Noticed a two-headed ogre skeleton
 16606 | D:10     | Killed a two-headed ogre skeleton
 16645 | D:10     | Noticed Josephine
 16656 | D:10     | Noticed a yak skeleton
 16660 | D:10     | Killed Josephine
 16725 | D:10     | Killed a yak skeleton
 16725 | D:10     | Reached XP level 11. HP: 79/79 MP: 9/29
 17088 | D:10     | Noticed Harold
 17116 | D:10     | Killed Harold
 17116 | D:10     | Reached skill level 5 in Fighting
 17116 | D:10     | Reached skill level 5 in Armour
 17116 | D:10     | Reached skill level 8 in Spellcasting
 17628 | D:10     | Found a bloodstained altar of Trog.
 18455 | D:10     | Reached skill level 1 in Throwing
 18888 | Lair:1   | Entered Level 1 of the Lair of Beasts
 19460 | Lair:1   | You fall through a shaft!
 19559 | Lair:1   | Learned a level 4 spell: Cause Fear
 22248 | Lair:3   | Reached skill level 5 in Dodging
 23331 | Lair:2   | Reached skill level 1 in Shields
 24124 | Lair:3   | Found a staircase to the Swamp.
 25439 | Lair:4   | Reached skill level 9 in Spellcasting
 25439 | Lair:4   | Reached XP level 12. HP: 89/89 MP: 12/31
 25866 | Lair:4   | Reached skill level 1 in Summonings
 32296 | D:9      | Bought the +0 robe of Action {Str+5 Int+2 Dam+4} for 552 gold pieces
 32666 | Lair:2   | Learned a level 5 spell: Fireball
 32672 | Lair:2   | Learned a level 5 spell: Lightning Bolt
 32994 | Lair:5   | Reached skill level 10 in Conjurations
 33385 | Lair:6   | Found a hole to the Spider Nest.
 34213 | Lair:6   | Reached skill level 10 in Spellcasting
 34218 | Lair:6   | Reached skill level 1 in Evocations
 35476 | Lair:5   | Reached XP level 13. HP: 63/99 MP: 4/33
 36289 | Lair:6   | Found a staircase to the Slime Pits.
 37769 | Lair:7   | Reached skill level 11 in Conjurations
 40210 | Lair:8   | Entered Level 8 of the Lair of Beasts
 40214 | Lair:8   | Reached skill level 1 in Charms
 40382 | Lair:8   | Found a staircase to the Slime Pits.
 40382 | Lair:8   | Found a viscous altar of Jiyva.
 40828 | Lair:8   | Reached skill level 5 in Translocations
 42015 | Lair:8   | Reached XP level 14. HP: 107/107 MP: 19/34
 44582 | Lair:7   | Reached skill level 5 in Shields
 45105 | Lair:2   | Learned a level 3 spell: Tukima's Dance
 45234 | Orc:1    | Entered Level 1 of the Orcish Mines
 46828 | Orc:4    | Entered Level 4 of the Orcish Mines
 47139 | Orc:4    | Noticed Nessos
 47809 | D:11     | Learned a level 2 spell: Cure Poison
 48714 | D:11     | Found Imya's Antique Armour Boutique.
 48726 | D:11     | Bought a bloodstained helmet for 195 gold pieces
 48730 | D:11     | Identified the +1 helmet "Xeg Anub" (You bought it in a shop on level 11 of the Dungeon)
 49873 | D:12     | Noticed Erica
 49881 | D:12     | Killed Erica
 50233 | D:12     | Found Puaphuut's General Store.
 50242 | D:12     | Bought a potion of berserk rage for 45 gold pieces
 50242 | D:12     | Bought a scroll of enchant armour for 82 gold pieces
 50826 | D:12     | Got a fine battleaxe
 51571 | D:13     | Found a labyrinth entrance.
 51579 | Lab      | Entered a Labyrinth
 52201 | Lab      | Got a sapphire blowgun
 52202 | Lab      | Identified the cursed blowgun "Hydraslayer" {speed, rElec} (You found it in a Labyrinth)
 53285 | Orc:3    | Found a staircase to the Elven Halls.
 53402 | Orc:4    | Noticed Jozef
 53624 | Orc:4    | Killed Jozef
 54405 | Orc:4    | Killed Nessos
 54721 | Orc:4    | Noticed an orc high priest
 54758 | Orc:4    | Killed an orc high priest
 54758 | Orc:4    | Reached skill level 10 in Fighting
 54759 | Orc:4    | Noticed an orc high priest
 54937 | Orc:4    | Killed an orc high priest
 55881 | Orc:4    | Noticed an orc high priest
 55886 | Orc:4    | Killed an orc high priest
 55886 | Orc:4    | Reached XP level 15. HP: 112/112 MP: 18/36
 56028 | Orc:4    | Found a roughly hewn altar of Beogh.
 56045 | Orc:4    | Noticed Donald
 56055 | Orc:4    | Killed Donald
 56092 | Orc:4    | Noticed an orc warlord
 56151 | Orc:4    | Noticed an iron troll
 56320 | Orc:4    | Killed an orc warlord
 56320 | Orc:4    | Reached skill level 5 in Charms
 56325 | Orc:4    | Noticed an orc high priest
 56355 | Orc:4    | Killed an orc high priest
 57276 | Spider:1 | Entered Level 1 of the Spider Nest
 58820 | Spider:1 | Reached skill level 10 in Hexes
 59884 | Spider:1 | Noticed Azrael
 59889 | Spider:1 | Killed Azrael
 59941 | Lair:6   | Noticed a rock worm
 60022 | Lair:6   | Killed a rock worm
 60175 | Lair:6   | Reached skill level 5 in Air Magic
 60542 | Lair:2   | Learned a level 2 spell: Swiftness
 61904 | Spider:2 | Got a glistering book
 61910 | Spider:1 | Identified the Incunabulum of Air and Enhancements (You found it on level 2 of the Spider Nest)
 62253 | Spider:1 | Reached skill level 12 in Conjurations
 63190 | Spider:2 | Reached skill level 5 in Polearms
 63199 | Spider:2 | HP: 4/113 [wolf spider (3)]
 67415 | Spider:3 | Reached XP level 16. HP: 112/122 MP: 27/36
 67631 | Spider:3 | Noticed Nikola
 68169 | Spider:3 | HP: 2/122 [Nikola/chain lightning (8)]
 68191 | Spider:2 | Gained mutation: Your vision is a little blurry. [mutagenic glow]
 68834 | Spider:3 | Killed Nikola
 69427 | Spider:2 | Identified a +1 cloak of preservation (You took it off Nikola on level 3 of the Spider Nest)
 70164 | Spider:3 | Found a roughly hewn altar of Beogh.
 72377 | Orc:3    | Killed an iron troll
 72725 | Orc:4    | Found Ijocel's Jewellery Boutique.
 72725 | Orc:4    | Found Qahaumam's Jewellery Emporium.
 72828 | Orc:4    | Found Sul Pnua's Antique Weapon Boutique.
 72828 | Orc:4    | Found Ineotzye's Food Emporium.
 73100 | Orc:4    | Bought the ring "Kyluevua" {rPois rF++} for 667 gold pieces
 73308 | Lair:2   | Learned a level 6 spell: Invisibility
 75143 | D:14     | Entered Level 14 of the Dungeon
 75475 | D:14     | Gained mutation: You tend to lose your temper in combat. [mutagenic glow]
 75575 | D:14     | Gained mutation: You are weak (Str -1). [mutagenic glow]
 76985 | D:15     | Entered Level 15 of the Dungeon
 77562 | D:15     | Noticed a deep elf conjurer
 77566 | D:15     | Killed a deep elf conjurer
 77567 | D:15     | Noticed a deep elf mage
 77568 | D:15     | Killed a deep elf mage
 79508 | D:16     | Found Uraeg's Armour Boutique.
 79517 | D:16     | Bought a +2 pair of gauntlets of strength for 281 gold pieces
 80483 | D:16     | Noticed Maud
 81148 | D:16     | Killed Maud
 82005 | D:17     | Reached XP level 17. HP: 131/131 MP: 15/37

One of the entrances might be a mimic.
What made you happy today?
Shatari wrote:I traded a goat for a Nintendo DS XL, and a ton of games.

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1888

Joined: Saturday, 9th July 2011, 20:57

Post Sunday, 25th March 2012, 19:04

Re: Spider branch

mumra wrote:What's really interesting is that each battle is very distinct based on the specific combination of monsters that turn up at any given time.


Can you elaborate on this a little more? I'd like some other perspectives, so I can think of spider combinations to use in vaults.

Dungeon Master

Posts: 553

Joined: Wednesday, 22nd December 2010, 10:12

Post Sunday, 25th March 2012, 22:03

Re: Feedback on Trunk deployment (.11)

Guppyfry wrote:
evilmike wrote: One thing that there could be more of is minivaults - there are currently a lot of "normal" vaults (ones with ORIENT line) but not a lot of minivaults.


Last fall I put up a bunch of little vaults, including 3 spider minis. They've been left to wither it seems like and I could revisit them to improve them if I had some constructive criticism. They're all here:
https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4721

Thanks for pointing this out. This just got lost under a bunch of stuff. I'm going to mark this as assigned, and then get to it sometime during the week. From looking at these, the only one of those that looks like it could use more work is the sewer map, but I'll post the feedback on the tracker.

For this message the author evilmike has received thanks:
Guppyfry

Dungeon Master

Posts: 1531

Joined: Saturday, 5th March 2011, 06:29

Post Sunday, 25th March 2012, 23:29

Re: Spider branch

nicolae wrote:
mumra wrote:What's really interesting is that each battle is very distinct based on the specific combination of monsters that turn up at any given time.


Can you elaborate on this a little more? I'd like some other perspectives, so I can think of spider combinations to use in vaults.


I've been thinking about this, and it's hard to define because it just arises from the randomness. But some ideas to think about are:

- Create "encounters" where it's not just "every available monster" but choose a small set of 2 or 3 types of spider (sometimes along with a single other monster, perhaps OoD or from outside Spider ... the time I ran into Nikola along with a tarantella and got confused ... that was pretty harrowing)

- Think about placement of the spiders so they rush the players almost in waves, this is hard to get right

- Strategic placement of web traps which of course trigger nearby spiders to rush in

Dungeon Master

Posts: 553

Joined: Wednesday, 22nd December 2010, 10:12

Post Sunday, 25th March 2012, 23:36

Re: Spider branch

Just thought I'd post an update here:

Yesterday I pushed an experimental change which increases the number of dangerous spiders (ie not vanilla spiders). HP is lowered a bit but overall things are harder. Numbers are up by about 25%.

"Experimental" is the key here - the numbers were tested for XP and such but certain types of spiders might be too spammy. In particular, there can be a lot of jumping spiders and tarantellas, since they can spawn with bands now.

If you play through the branch on cdo (cao tends to be out of date), I'd like to hear how it goes. I'm interested in difficulty, but also just the branch being generally interesting. I might reduce the number of tarantellas and jumping spiders, if they are excessive.

Dungeon Master

Posts: 553

Joined: Wednesday, 22nd December 2010, 10:12

Post Sunday, 25th March 2012, 23:50

Re: Spider branch

mumra wrote: - Strategic placement of web traps which of course trigger nearby spiders to rush in

This already happens, in fact. Nearby spiders can sense when you're caught in a web.

Dungeon Master

Posts: 1531

Joined: Saturday, 5th March 2011, 06:29

Post Monday, 26th March 2012, 00:44

Re: Spider branch

evilmike wrote:
mumra wrote: - Strategic placement of web traps which of course trigger nearby spiders to rush in

This already happens, in fact. Nearby spiders can sense when you're caught in a web.


I know, I wrote the code ;)

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1888

Joined: Saturday, 9th July 2011, 20:57

Post Monday, 26th March 2012, 01:01

Re: Spider branch

Do webs attract all monsters nearby, or just spiders, and does the effect only work within the branch?

Dungeon Master

Posts: 553

Joined: Wednesday, 22nd December 2010, 10:12

Post Monday, 26th March 2012, 01:05

Re: Spider branch

It works with any monster that has the "web sense" flag.

Tartarus Sorceror

Posts: 1888

Joined: Saturday, 9th July 2011, 20:57

Post Monday, 26th March 2012, 10:54

Re: Spider branch

"I'm aware that it's a little weird for all moths to be immune like this, but I'm going to side with gameplay over realism on this. I guess Crawl's moths have just evolved to be web immune, given their natural habitat is shared with Spiders."

I don't think it's that weird. IRL, the scales on the wings of moths and butterflies simply slough off when they get stuck in a web, allowing them to escape from spider webs more easily.

Mines Malingerer

Posts: 42

Joined: Friday, 17th February 2012, 20:13

Post Monday, 26th March 2012, 16:10

Re: Spider branch

On the other hand having the spiders try and eat everything caught in webs and not only the player would be quite awesome. Would really capture that creepy crawly vibe.

For this message the author Infinitum has received thanks: 2
mageykun, MyOtheHedgeFox

Dungeon Master

Posts: 1531

Joined: Saturday, 5th March 2011, 06:29

Post Monday, 26th March 2012, 16:56

Re: Spider branch

Jabberwocky wrote:One of the entrances might be a mimic.


Good point.

We'll never know now, since I splatted in Elf:5 due to not really having a plan for what to do faced with an archer who just wouldn't die in a -cTele situation ;) This was after clearing spider, swamp, and up to D:26.

Spider:5 was still pretty tough even with a few extra levels under my belt. It's very hard to kill a ghost moth without running out of MP, even when hasted; and when you're dealing with two of them and a bunch of spiders its no walk in the park. With a different build it might've been easier - I had higher level conjurations available but I'd chosen to keep on diversifying instead. Most of the times I get this far it's with pure conjurations, so I think I'm also just not very good at properly utilising the more diverse spells and other tools. It's a lot of fun figuring out new tactics though!

Dungeon Master

Posts: 1531

Joined: Saturday, 5th March 2011, 06:29

Post Monday, 26th March 2012, 16:58

Re: Spider branch

Infinitum wrote:On the other hand having the spiders try and eat everything caught in webs and not only the player would be quite awesome. Would really capture that creepy crawly vibe.


This would be thematic, but summoners will manipulate the mechanic to distract spiders.
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